Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Drag Queens

Episode Date: March 12, 2023

RuPaul. Lily Savage. Bianca Del Rio. Dame Edna Everage. These iconic drag queens are household names, but have you ever heard about Princess Seraphina? Or William Dorsey Swann, aka 'The Queen'?Today we're bringing you a very special mash-up episode for Comic Relief, all about the history of Drag Queens. Kate is joined by Gossip Gays hosts Danny Beard (winner of RuPaul's Race UK) and DJ Billy Andrew.Where did the term Drag Queen come from? What is a Molly House? And why could you expect to be served a stewed prune there? It wasn't to aid digestive health that's for sure...Red Nose Day has always been a time to spread a bit of joy. We know there’s a lot going on right now and for many people things are really tough. But if you can donate, every penny will add up to a life-changing difference. Text PODCAST to 70205 to give £5 today. To donate £5 text the word PODCAST to 70205. Texts cost your donation amount plus your standard network message charge and 100% of your donation will go to Comic Relief, a registered charity. You must be 16 or over and please ask the bill-payer’s permission. For full terms and conditions visit comicrelief.com/podcastmashupProduced by Charlotte Long & Lucas Poole. Mixed by Stuart Beckwith.Betwixt the Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society. A podcast by History Hit.For more History Hit content, subscribe to our newsletters here. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello everybody and welcome to a very special episode of Betwicks the Sheets. Today we are collaborating with the Gossip Gaze podcast for a very special episode for comic relief, which is why this is out on a Sunday and not our usual Tuesday or Friday, just in case we took you by surprise there. We are looking into the history of drag and shining the light on some of the most notable and fabulous drag queens in the history books.

From the Elizabethan times, right up to the present day. But before we get going, I have to give you your fair do's warning. Fair do's. This is a podcast of an adult nature with adults speaking to another adults about adulty things.

And in this case, we're talking about drag and we will definitely be swearing. There will be some sexual themes. There will just be general naughtiness. And it's a Sunday, for goodness sake. You might not want this filth in your ears. In which case, I advise you, turn off now and go and watch the Antiques Roadshow.

And for those of you that are still with me, Tiara's at the ready. Let's do this. Hello and welcome to this extra special episode of the Gossip Gaze. In fact, it's not the Gossip Gaze today. No, it's not. It's called Betwixt the Gossip Gaze. This is a mash-up for Comic Relief, which is very excited. Very exciting. We've got an extra special guest as well. It's Kate. How are you, Kate? I am thrilled to be between the Gossip Gaze today. There's nowhere else I'd rather be.

Honestly, you're very safe between us, honey. You look absolutely stunning today as well. This is a mash-up podcast. Kate, tell everyone at home what we can expect today because you know your shit, babe. I know some shit. And I know, mostly what I know is historical sex shit. If you get me outside of those parameters

and it tends to fall apart pretty quickly. But the history of sex, I'm pretty good on. I love that. I love it. We always talk about sex on this show. We are obsessed with sex. We've even had our own historical chat about sex. eyelashes.

Were they invented to keep calm out of prostitute eyes? No. No. They weren't. No. They weren't.

That's one of those internet myths. The original false eyelashes were actually made out of mouse fur and they were kind of glued to the face. It's not known if they were used by sex workers in brothels.

They would probably be quite expensive. If you have to try and catch and skin a mouse, that's got some work. It goes out of it. Wow. They were really like expensive items, but they weren't invented in a bruce of. Russell to keep come out of sex with his eyes because they don't work for that anyway.

No. No, they don't. I mean, I know from experience. I know from experience. They don't work for that, but we had a little chat about it with one of our producers Sam on it a while ago. And I just find it absolutely fascinating. And you have got a full, well, I say a full history.

We're going to call it a brief history because we're not here all day. But we've got a bit of a history of drag coming up for you today. And we've got a snack of the week that we want you to try as well. Well, you want us to try. Yeah. This is right. You've picked our snack of the week this week. Yes.

And apparently there's a reason and a rhyme behind it, so I'm very excited to find that out. Yes. If you've just tuned in and you're tuning in because you're fans of either of our podcast, thank you so much. This is a full show for comic relief. My name's Danny Beard. I'm a drag queen entertainer. A DJ. A presenter.

A fleranthraplast. I can't say any of the words. You're not a DJ anymore. Might as well be. I can add it to the resume. I'm a horse rider. No, don't take my thing away because I'm the DJ. Hi, everybody.

I'm Billy Andrew. I'm a DJ. International, some might say. She's just been booked on another cruise, girls. There we go. Kate, tell us all about your lovely sound. About me. I'm just, I can't stop listening to you.

To I want to listen to it all day. I keep forgetting I've got to contribute something to this. I'm Dr. Kate Lister. I am a lecturer at Leeds Trinity University. I'm the host of Betwixt the Sheets podcast and author of a number of sex history books. Can I just say I'm from Leeds? And you don't sound like you're from there, but you teach there.

I'm from even further north originally. I'm from Cumbria, way up in the Wildling area. Wow. Yeah. Wildling area? Yeah. They haven't had the second. It sounds like somewhere you find a body.

I've never heard of any. A body was found in the wildling area. What other than you is famous from the wildling area? From the wildling area. Stan Laurel. Stan Laurel was born in the town that I was born in, Ulverston, on the coast of the late district, from Laurel and Hardy fame. Oh. I'm glad you said Lauren and Hardy at the end because I was going to have to quickly Google.

Stan Laurel on the table. Yeah. name as well. Loyal and Hardy. Yeah. Well, girls, Gays, and days,

we are recording today for a very special reason. And that reason is for comic relief. So we would love if you could donate. And if you want to do that, to donate five pound, you can text the word

podcast to 70205. Text costs your donation amount plus your standard networking messaging charge and 100% of your donation will go to Comic Relief, which is a registered charity. You must be 16 or over. and please ask the bill payers permission, full terms and conditions.

You can visit Comicrelief.com forward slash podcast mash up. We're official girls. It's betwixt the gossip gaze today. We're joined by the absolutely stunning Kate, who is a historian, a lecturer and a dab hand on the hair curlers because her hair looks absolutely stunning today. And she's also going to be taking us on a history of drag race. Not just drag race, the race to drag.

Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. That was me being a presenter, but basically, we are full of knowledge for you. So here it is. Okay, okay, focusing, focusing. Here we go. The history of drag goes right back as far as probably as human kinds

have been dressing up and playing around with it, but the earliest records that we have of it go back to Shakespearean times when women weren't allowed on the stage in theatre. And theatres, although today they're known as being very sophisticated places that you might go and watch a Harold Pinter show, and, you know, be clever with your mates. They were at the time the hotbeds of den, debauchery and iniquity.

So women weren't allowed on the stage because they thought that just made it even naughtier. So therefore you got men dragging up as women. And that's where the roles are thought to have initially come from. So any Shakespearean play that you see, you would have got all the female roles would have been played by men, including things like Romeo and Juliet, which kind of puts an interesting spin. Makes it hot.

Makes it sexy. Makes it sexy. Yeah. They imagine they're all kind of dragged up. So one of the first drag queens that we know about in the UK went by the name of Princess Serafina. And there recognises being the first drag queen in English history and they date to the 18th century.

Princess Serafina was also known as John Cooper and she was a gentleman's servant and a kind of a messenger between the Mollie houses, the Mollies, the gay clubs and bars at the time, and also known as a bit of a host or somebody that sold sex on the time. Actually, men at the time could be hanged for this, for engaging in any kind of homosexual activities. But that isn't why we know about Princess Serafina. Princess Serafina was involved in a legal court case because somebody tried to steal her clothes.

They attacked her in an alleyway and had to go to court about it. And the case was in 1732, just before Bridgeton Times, actually. And that's how we know the most information about Serafina. Wow. Do you know what? I love the idea that people were doing that all way back when dressing up as the opposite gender. I just having a really good party when you were mentioning the Shakespeare thing. Is it Macbeth where they've got those witches?

That's right. They're like the OG Sanderson sisters from Hocus Pocas. Yeah, they are. But they would have been men dressed as women as these witches around that culture. Watch your take on the history of the word drag because I've heard this debated in the past. Some people think it's from Shakespeare where it's dressed as a girl. Drag. Yeah.

But I've seen a lot of people say that isn't true and they were often nicknamed drag queens or drag performers because they'd wear such big ballgowns and their costumes would drag along the floor. Right, so we've got two different theories there. We've got two different theories. So I'm just keen to hear what Kate's thoughts on that are. It's one of those words that is the origins of it are very disputed,

probably because this was something that was underground for a long time and they just weren't writing it down so we don't have the records to try and understand it. I've heard both of those. And I think that it's probably more likely that it would be about the big dresses dragging along the floor. But nobody is exactly sure of where this word came from or why it's drag. Maybe it's just they have to get dragged out of these parties. Dragged into being another gender.

Something along those lines, but nobody's quite sure. Wow. So we move on from the 18th century and we start to see people in the 19th century over in America, right? We do. One of the most fascinating characters in all of drag history is the form. slave, William Darcy Swan, who was known as Queen at the time. And this is a really fascinating story. He was black, African, American, and he was enslaved. He was born in, I think it was 1860, and grew up enslaved. And actually went on to, would I say that they were living openly, but they certainly

had queer resistance. They also had parties, bowls, suarez, lived in a same-sex relationship and was quite outspoken about it, to the point where he is written about in articles at the time, which is really quite shocking. You think how conservative America is, and they're writing about a man dressing up as a woman, a man in a same-sex relationship, and a black man at the same time. So this is a really fascinating history that this person was out and proud, known as Queen, wanted to be called Queen, which is pretty epic. The Queen. The Queen. She's the Queen, honey. Not a Queen, the Queen.

I think it's fascinating that we get people like this from the 19th century, Because I think even if we have people like this now, making scenes and causing riots and being outspoken, got a look at the trans community now. And people like Munro Bergdorf, who she's constantly speaking out on behalf of her community and our community in the trans community. And, you know, someone like her is going to be in the modern day history books. It's fascinating for me to think back of Miss Dorsi Swan, the Queen. The Queen. I love it. I love her.

I think about the persecution that they were risking as well to do that, to be out to women. To the point where people are writing about them in papers, they were risking their lives. every single day to do that. Yeah. Honestly, this is what I'm loving this podcast day, because it's without these people that we wouldn't be able to do what we do. Exactly.

And not at the ages we do. You look now, we've got 16-year-old drag queens that turn up to shows. Yeah. Even, that wouldn't have even been me. Do you know what I mean? You had the youngest drag queen in the country

rock up to one of your shows. Yeah, six months old. I'm joking. No, aren't they a 12-year-old? And they performed at a pride that we went to a couple of years ago. What the name? Miss O-T.

Miss O-T, yeah. Yeah, we're 12, well, John. Really good. She was a drag queen and she performed at a Pride event. So the drag queen is getting younger, younger as well. I love it. Should we move through history slightly? I want to talk about Fanny and Stella.

Everyone wants to talk about Fanny and Stella. Yeah, who doesn't? So Fanny and Stella, they were a couple of drag queen hustling. Very silly boys, as the author of Fanny and Stella, Neil McKenna, described them as. They're very young, their early 20s. And this is London in the... mid-19th century. They actually come from quite respectable middle-class families. No one saw this one

come in. And they start to drag up at a young age. Their names are Ernest Bolton and Frederick Park. That's their real names. And then they take the stage names, Stella and Fanny. They are performing on stage as female impersonators. But they also seem to like to just do it in day-to-day life. They like to get glammed up, go out. And they are sex workers. So they're pulling clients. They're out, hustling, winking at gentlemen, walking in the streets. They get arrested for that a couple of times. Wow. Yes. Down by the Strand theatre.

Do you think maybe this is a bit more of a lifestyle? I think maybe this is some of the earliest recorded trans people that we've got? It's a huge issue around how do we talk about these people historically? Because would we call them trans today? Would they have said that they're trans? Because they're not here. Like, how do you identify? You have to be really careful about this stuff when you're talking about it as a modern-day historian.

I think all you can really. really do is try and address them how they spoke about themselves. And they described themselves as, well, it depends how they were dressed when they were Fanny and Stella. She, her pronouns that describe themselves. They were originally arrested as women. It was a hell of a shock to the police. Wow. And is this a book? Can we read this about Fanny and Stella? Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Just to jump in dead quick on one of the most recent episodes of the current drag race, they mention, I don't know how far back it was, but one of the contestants, because they're quite older. They had to wear badges so people knew that they were actually men dressed as women.

This was back, I think in the early 80s and they used to cover them the badges up with the hair. But if the police ever saw them, they had to have the badges on. So people like in the police and the Navy knew that they were drag queens in quotations. Wow. I know. But I think as well, I think there's so much queer history that gets erased, even when it's written about. Yeah. Sometimes it's written about people who aren't queer. We almost end up getting like ciswashed. I think, yeah, we can speak about them how they want, but I also think if there was modern day terminology, it would be interesting to know how they thought.

It really would be, when they were arrested, their case was so important because they couldn't really charge them with cross-dressing, because that wasn't illegal, it was just very much frowned upon. So the only crime they could attempt to get them on was conspiracy to commit buggery, which is a very different charge from buggery itself. So they were trying to prove that they were tempting good, respectable Victorian men

into buggery. How the fuck do you prove that? How do you prove that someone was trying to get you to come over here? So the whole case eventually fell apart and they were let off. They got away with it, hurrah, and the press was fascinated by it. But the authorities were so angry that they couldn't get them on this. They changed the law. And they bought in something called the Lebeshaye Amendment,

which made any homosexual acts illegal. Anything in decency, it was called, that that was illegal. And that was the law that got Oscar Wilde. And that was the law that was in place that punished gay men right up until the 1960s when it was finally repealed. Wow. Yeah. And would drag have been included in that? It's always walked a really fine line because drag on stage has been a sort of a safe space for that to operate.

There have been male impersonators as well. Drag kings, a very long history of that. Vestatilly in the 19th century is a really famous one. And also drag queens, female impersonators. But while they're on stage, it's kind of, you have to like appeal to the straits in the audience. You make it like a safe space. Not much has changed, girl. Not much is changed.

In order to be successful, let's try and distance themselves from any accusations of being queer because it was all just fun and dressing up and being silly. Obviously, it was, but you couldn't let that get out. So being a drag on stage, that wasn't illegal. But doing it privately at home regularly dressing. Now, maybe what we'd call trans, now was certainly something that would be punished under the Indecency Act. Oh, my God. And in America it was absolutely a crime that could have you put in jail

and gay bars were regularly raided and people were charged with dressing up as the incorrect gender. So did this happen all the way up until the 80s, as we know, like Stonewall? Well, we got a little bit covered now. Oh, we do. Don't jump the gun here, Billy, son. Straight after World War II, we start to meet people like Danny LaRue, don't we, honey? We do, absolutely. And this is the sort of the game-changing moment.

Drag's always been part of the culture. It's always been part of the theatre. but people like Danny LaRue that become mainstream entertainers that kind of really push that and it becomes acceptable to the public. Drag now becomes a safe space for the general public to enjoy. And once it's got a quote, quote, respectable face, I don't know how Danny Leroux would feel about being called that.

But I was going to say. But do you know what I mean? Like an acceptable, like people bought into this. I'm like, right, this is okay. Now the floodgates are open for more people to come through after that. I've got a little fascination with Danny Leroux because Danny Rue used to do the Palladium and, like, headline the biggest Pantos of the day. Like, and obviously I'm a little bit of a Panto nerd of from a few.

And I just find the history of it because obviously Panto predates the things like TV and all things like that. So that was the way big stars. And Danny LaRue was in there with the big stars at the time. Don't ask me who the big stars at the time were because I weren't interested because they were all like boxes and things like that. But I just find it so fascinating that like a queer act can go so mainstream and so far back in history, really. but also still be talked about today I've been on the hunt for a Danny Leroux original poster for my house for years

I check you about all the time on Danny Leroux I do a buff bingo brunch that I DJ right and one of the bingo calls is 72 Danny Leroux but then there's people in the crowd like Who's that, who's that? Right, tell them to listen to this episode and find out so then they'll know

so I'll plug this podcast next side to say 72 Danny Leru's that and I'll say listen to this and you know Who else have we got them? So like when you get into things like the 50s and the 60s Now we've got a really weird hybrid almost attitude to it because you've got notably coded queer characters in TV series, like the kind of camp Mr. Humphreys types of characters that start appearing, that everybody knows how they're coded,

but it's still an illegal act. It's still very stigmatised. So it's like a weird state of cognitive dissidents of people know that this is queer and gay, but also they're not allowed to actually say it. Often they were always the evil characters as well. They were always the bad guys. weren't they? And they still are now.

If you look at things like, I'm sure it's like the Powerpuff Girls or whatever, the evil ones, they're always like really camp and gay. Disney do that as well. Look at a lot of their evil characters and they're quite camp.

Their coded is quite like Scar, quite camp. Oh, he's very campy star. Oh, in the theatre production, Scar might as well have a set of lashes, a set of gumcutters on, darling. Honestly, and a set of nails. Yeah. So what else have we got?

Let's bring it slightly more to the modern day and we'll move on, but I'm finding this fascinating. Same. I think one of my favourite drag artist, apart from your good self, it's Lily Savage. Yes, we love Lily Savage. Oh, God, and even now, like, on late nights, TikTok when I can't sleep, I'm scrolling just to find little sketches of Lily. I'm just howling with laughter. The thing that I liked about Lily as well is that she made it dirty. Yes.

Whereas, like, your drags before, they'd been quite, I don't want to say sanitised, because they're drag. They're inherently kinky of themselves. Yeah. Like something like Dame Edna Everidge, who also, you know, absolute game changer, but made their name being like an Australian housewife, a really exaggerated housewife, and then became superstar, mega star, global star, pan global star, all that stuff. Yeah. But Lily made it dirty.

Like Lily was playing on being, you know, a Liverpool whore from down the talks, talking about punters wiping their knobs on the curtains before they go. And it's always relaxed. I think the fascinating thing with Lily is coming from the bars where police were still raiding at the time. One of their most flamboyant, amazing stories is when the police raided the Royal Vauxhall Tavern. And they all had rubber gloves on because it was in the midst of the AIDS crisis. And they didn't want to touch the queers. They still didn't fully understand HIV.

And obviously the things that we know now, which are undetectable, is untransmitable. and all things like that that we know now is modern day medicine. So back then, the police all raided with yellow rubber gloves on and Lily's on stage. And she goes, oh, where's the coppers are they air to welt with the washing off? And just completely undermine them all. They must be here to melt with the washing up. And I just love that she's come from that and then crack the mainstream, had blankety blank, various TV shows and is still on TV now.

Like one thing I say when I go for TV meetings, if I could be like a fifth of what Paul O'Grady has achieved, I would consider myself as made it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, 100%. And I just think for every drag queen, we should look up and respect these, everyone we've spoken about, but I think because Paul is within reach

and we can see the history from the television and we've got a bit more tangible stuff on it. It makes a slightly more inspiring to me in a way. That said, you know, look at people like the Queen from over, Miss Dorsey. 100%. She's just as inspiring, if not more, really. But, hey-ho. I think as well just because Lily's northern.

Yeah. Yes. She takes the piss out of herself. We all like a bit of a northern queen. 100%. But doesn't that just like show how much things have changed since even when Lily was performing that the police would raid in Marigold gloves? Look at that enormous shift to where we are now. It's mind-blown.

It's easy to forget how dangerous and prejudice, like within living memory, easily living memory. Exactly. And I think without these people we wouldn't be where we are now, really. 100% Yeah You know Just the way Queer people

We go out now And we party and we club You know I know people One of my dearest friends Gordon You know He would go and knock on a door

And they'd slide a little slide And check him out And see him out And see if he was gay And off And slide the slide And a minute later They'd open it

And let him in You know There's people Have paved the way For us Just to be able to go out And exist Yeah

And these queens Have paved the way For us Not just to exist But we're mainstream Now Throw a pound Down Telly Land

And it's gonna wait Five Drag Queens Before it hit Someone else You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, not all of them are good, but... In the 18th century, the place that gay people and drag queens would meet were called molly houses.

Yeah. We've got a molly house in Manchester, yeah. Still called that, which is really nice, actually, so I didn't know that. Yeah, because one of the things, if you're gay in history before, it was safe to be out, where'd you go? Like, you didn't have gay bars in the 18th century. How do you know where to go? How do you know where to meet people? How do you know who to speak to?

That's why they come up with Polari. Yeah. Do you know about Polari? I'm fascinated by it about how do you avoid the authorities? And that's when you start to get things like, so in the 18th century, they were molly houses. They weren't quite bars. They weren't quite brothels.

They were some hybrid between them. And you'd kind of need to know who to know where to go. You'd meet there. But then you've got little things like which side earrings that you might wear or over in America, like handkerchiefs that you'd hang out of your back pockets to kind of signify it. And from a historian's point of view, It's so frustrating because it was so illegal and discriminated against.

It's really difficult to find records of it because obviously it was supposed to be a secret. Do you know what? It's definitely the ear piercing thing. That's something that in school people use and say like, oh, don't wear it on your left once. That means your day. Like that actually used to be a thing that would be what you say is. I got it in both ears because I want everyone to know.

Stupid gay. Right. Well, that brings us nicely to modern day. I'd love to talk more about Polari, by the way, at some point. I don't know if we've got time. For those that don't know, and we've just mentioned it off the blue, it's kind of, how would you describe it, Kay? I'd say it's like an ancient gay language almost. It was a gay language.

So in, well, all over the past, but particularly in the big cities, in Britain, in the 1950s, there was a real persecution of homosexuals. They could still get sent to jail. Before that, you've got punishments, like chemical castration. That's what happened to Alan Turing just after the Second World War. They flooded him with, I think it was estrogen or progesterone to chemically castrate him. So the stakes of being caught are huge. And one of the way that the gay community got around that was inventing their own dialect called Polari,

which was effectively like a secret language that they would use to talk to one another to avoid detection by the police. And one thing I find really fascinating about Polari as well is you don't realize it's actually still within our language now. As a scouse, there's something we say a lot is that's boss. Boss is Polari and Avada, a look over there. So there's still things that queer's and people,

And it's crept into other areas. When you start looking at Polari, it blows your mind. It's fascinating. You'll go, oh, my God, I know that words. Or I use that word. There's lots of other examples of it. But I just remember boss because I'm scouse. Yeah.

I grew up saying this is boss. That's boss. And I'm like, oh, my God. It's gay word. It's gay. Well, that brings us nicely onto modern tea, with things like drag race making it very mainstream. But we don't need to chat on about that?

People know about drag race, don't they? Oh, you've won it? You could talk about it. You've heard it. You're part of history, all that build up to it, and there you are. You are part of history? For who? The people who watch Drag Race?

Yeah, but I mean, I'm not going to be in the butts, I'm out. These are actually risked their lives. I went on a telly show for five minutes. These are history makers. Do you know what, though, it took these people to pave the way for you. I appreciate that. For you to be able to go on the telly, do your thing, and show off. Also, don't underestimate what Rupol's Drag Race did to make this mainstream.

I mean, everyone who took part of it took a chance to go on telly and to put themselves out there. The reaction could have been very different. 100%. Don't put yourself down. I'm not. I just think I'm slightly late to the party. I feel like the risk was less for me. I'm just thinking I'm being humble guys and being humble.

Yeah, yeah. I do think the show, though, made it way more mainstream than what drag it originally was. I still felt like it was slightly not underground, but basically the first drag queen that I ever saw was probably Lily Savage knowing them. You know what I mean? Saw them on the TV. And there weren't really anybody else until Drag Race came along. And Lily stopped a while ago. So there was this big gap where it was a bit like I didn't really know about it.

Well, drag was in the gay bars. It was in the clubs. Yeah. You know, at a stretch, it was in pantomimes with dames, you know. And then it was like really sanitised and things like, what's it called, the Irish hate as equally as the gays, Mrs. Brown's boys. You know, then we get straight men coming and doing it and ruining it like that. Do you know what I mean?

Is if the Irish haven't been through enough, they've got a straight drag queen that's famous. Do you ever worry, I shouldn't say this, but if drag becomes mainstream, and God bless it, I hope it does, because you don't want stigma and shame, but do you ever wonder that it might, like, lose something if it's not quite as naughty and dirty and subversive?

I think the argument there is that it has, but I think, like with anything that becomes mainstream, you know, if you look at, and this is a very gay example, But if you look at Lady Gaga, when Lady Gaga started and she was this club kid from New York and she produced music to where she is now, the original fans would say she's sanitised, she's changed, she's different. Anything that becomes more mainstream, which is just a word of appealing to more people, you know, you have to lose some edge somewhere. I say that and I'm doing a theatre tour at the minute where I swear every five minutes and talk about drugs. But that's me But you know what I mean

On telly there's always an audience And like my theatre shows For example I'm just growing on what I know You know things like live working theatre shows They're always a lot more gritty And a lot more sweary And a lot more hard hitting

If I'm going on something TV I'm not going to start making Racking up line jokes Am I in the middle of celebrity pointless It's just So there's always just a time And a play through it But I think there's an argument

That's kind of already I think. Yeah, but I think if you go to these venues where drag is on and performed in the queer spaces, you're still going to get that edgier, you still going to get that non-mainstream. And I guess the more people know about drag, the more they might go to these spaces

and hopefully we'll keep the drag scene alive through that. Do you think there's some link between drag becoming more and more mainstream with RuPaul and the kind of real, fervent, anti-transgender message that you get in the right wing press? The two seem to have exploded at the same time. They're rising at the same time

but I also think like if you look at America right now, I think it's Tennessee, quote me if I'm wrong. Tennessee is introduced to drag ban. I didn't know that. This week. This week because people are equating drag queens it's a very old rhetoric for gay

people to paedophiles and there's been drag queen story time and weirdly the far right seem to sexualize these drag queen story times are like they're indoctrinating our kids while at the same time you know, giving kids AK-47s for Christmas in America. It's like, for me it's backwards.

For a lot of people, it's backwards. I think the real damaging thing is that there's erasure of these queer kids, as if queer kids don't exist. I remember being a kid. I remember being gay as fucking hell. You know, I wasn't introduced to anything sexual, but I knew I was gay. Yeah.

I knew I fancied people. You know what I mean? I don't know. I think the more we are seen and make a noise, the more it's going to annoy the people that don't want us to be here. And I use the word all's collective. for the queer community. I'm talking about my trans brothers and sisters

as much as I'm talking about, you know, my lesbians and pans and buys and everyone else in the lovely acronym that fucks me up for being dyslexic. I think we just need to continue making a noise and continue being seen and I think if we take anything from this little chat is that there's people that have done this

throughout history that have made it easier for us to do. We should never sit back and go, well, we've kind of got it now. Well, gay marriage is the thing, we're fine. Because it's not. It's only round the corner it's happening to us. If they're starting to ban it across America, give it five, ten years, and you know, you're going to have people catching on here. I mean, I've already had comments this week.

Sorry, I sound like I'm plugging everything. We just announced more dates on this theatre story if you want to head to Link Trick, no, I'm joking. And I already have comments on that saying, as long as it's not for kids. It's awful that link, isn't it? Is that nobody would want to be transgender or a drag queen, and the entire motivation must be that they want to abuse children. That's such a stupid equation. But also, I'll be honest, I don't want kids at my shows as much. you don't want the kids at my shows.

I don't want them there. I want to be able to talk about things that appeal to my audience, my queer and ally audience that relate to them. And the lot of that isn't what's going to relate to kids. Don't bring kids to my shows. I don't want them there either. Especially if people like the right wing are going to use it against me. No, love.

Absolutely. It says far more about the parents than it does my show. I always make a disclaimer as well and say, does anyone here under 18, put your hands up, make them put the round up, and then I'm like, you've got shit parents. Listen, we could chat all day on this. Let's do a little call for comic relief,

because that is what today is all about. We could have done a series, us, Kay. We could have done, we should do. The history gaze. Yes, the history gaze. That would be great. Okay, I'd love that. Yeah, but let's focus on comic relief for now

and we'll come back to chat and all this chat. The money raised will help support people struggling with the cost of living crisis and tackle issues such as homelessness, mental health problems, and food. poverty here in the UK and around the world. Please give what you can. Every donation will make a difference.

Text, podcast to 70205 to give five pounds today. To donate five pounds, text the word podcast to 70205. Text costs your donation amount plus your standard network message charge and 100% of your donation will go to Comic Release, a registered charity. You must be 16 or over and please ask the bill payers permission for full terms and conditions, visit comicrelief.com forward slash podcast mashup. So now we are moving on to one of my personal favorite sections from the Gothic Days podcast. It is called Schnaq of the Wheat.

Oh, Snack of the Week. I say snack. You say snack. But basically we get to eat, which is the best thing about it. So today, normally I provide the snack. But actually, Kate, you've suggested the snack. Is that right? I have.

And there's method in the madness, right? My producers came to me and said, do you have an idea for a historical snack? and I'd just been researching brothels around London at the time of Shakespeare. And one of the things that they used to serve in the brothels to revive flagging clients was stewed prunes. Is this going to make us horny? Yeah. So hang on. This is to revive flagging clients.

You could use this at one of your parties. I need some of these because sometimes, you know what? You can't get the Viagra. This isn't meant to make us horny. This is meant to give us energy. Oh, I thought it was making. Both. Both.

Oh, is it? Both. It makes you morning. They thought that plums were in aphrodisiac because they look like bowls. That's quite common throughout history. If you find a food that looks like genitals, it's obviously an aphrodisiac. And the fact that they were called stewed as well, because brothels were called stews. They have been since the Middle Ages.

So stewed prune. Yeah, that's an obvious brothel snack. So that's what they were eating in the brothels. So we're trying stewed prunes. Right. Stude prunes. Shakespeare makes a joke about them in Henry IV. He says, like, I'll trust.

you as much as I trust a stewed prune. Oh, you're really setting this up for them to taste nice, Kate. Thank you, yeah. Even Shakespeare rhythm. I don't think they're going to taste nice, Danny. It's a stewed prune. But I've got some, and I think that you've got some as well, so we can give it a go. Let's give it a go.

I'm going to download Grindr if this goes well. Like it's not already on your phone. Grab that box there. This has been hand lovingly made for us today. What are they in? It looks like. What are they in? I love a prune.

Okay, so it's water, ground cinnamon, and very. vanilla. I'm ready. I'm ready to do. I'm ready. I've got my stewed prune. It's better the more you eat it, I promise. No, the flavour's getting there. It's not bad. It is a bit like jam. I actually enjoy that. I think I'm going to drink the juice and everything. Daddy. Don't drink too much because it has a... Oh, okay. Maybe not then, especially I'm going for a hookup. What I will say... Do you not like it? Is the taste I like... The text just like slugs.

Honest, that was like a bush took a trial. I hope someone from my TV was watching because this Christmas I'm going to be eating a bollick in the jungle. Do you know what? I'd say that's probably the healthiest snack we've had in a while, so thank you very much for suggesting that. Well, darling, I actually think I'm going to go back to try another one of those prunes. I enjoyed the prune. I can't imagine what your house smells like while you're cooking them. It feels like a lot of effort just for that.

I want more out of it. I think they'd be nicer if we took the stones out and blitz that into a jam. Spread it on a bit of terms. supposed to make you horny. So you'll have to update me if it has that effect. I'm sat opposite Billy, so it kind of has a counteraction to anything that's happening down south. Well, thank you very much, Kate and Danny. I've really enjoyed today. I mean, we do some LGBT history on our show, but this was like next level. I absolutely loved it. I've learned so much today. So I appreciate all the work that's gone into that. So thank you very much. Thank you so much. I had so much fun talking

to you. It's been an absolute truth. Oh, thank you. And listen, I think we need to do more of these crossovers. I'm happy to do a crossover. I like to leave a podcast recording feel more educated and I am feeling educated. And 5% more horny off that prune. Give me another prune and I'll be 10% more horny. My work here is done. Kay, if people have loved listening to you today and they're fans of the gossip gays, how can we hear more from you? You can find me at the Betwixt the Sheets podcast. I'm also on Twitter at K8 underscore Lister and the same for TikTok and Instagram.

And you're published author, Kate. I am, yes, a published author which means all of the smart I'm talking about is legit. Fantastic. And guys, we've been the gossip days. Yeah, at Gossip Days on all social media followers there. Or you can follow me at DJ Billy Andrew. Are you at the Danny Beard? Yes, if you want to do that, do that.

We love you loads. We hope we've enjoyed this. And don't forget, this has been all for Red Nose Day. So one more time, if you could. and you feel like you can, we'd love you to donate. Billy's going to tell you how to do that. So Red Noseday has always been a time to spread a bit of joy. We know there's a lot going on right now, and for many people, times are tough.

But if you can donate, every penny will add up and make life-changing differences. Text podcast to 70205 to do £5 today. Text costs your donation amount plus your standard network message charge, and 100% of your donation will go to Comic Relief, a registered charity. You must be 16 or over and please ask the Bill Pays mission. For full terms and conditions, please visitcommitrelief.com forward slash podcast mashup. This podcast includes music by Epidemic Sounds.