Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Eunuchs

Episode Date: January 24, 2023

From Ancient Assyria to the Byzantine Empire, from the Qing dynasty’s Forbidden City to 19th century operas; Eunuchs have been present across a huge range of the world’s history. Despite this, they are often mainly thought of in terms of their private parts.So today, Betwixt the Sheets, Kate is joined by Shaun Tougher from Cardiff University to find out what the lives of Eunuchs were like, particularly in the Byzantine Empire. Why would people, or often their parents, make this choice? And how were they perceived in their societies?*WARNING there are adult words and themes in this episode*Produced by Charlotte Long and Sophie Gee. Mixed by Sophie Gee.Betwixt the Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society. A podcast by History Hit.For more History Hit content, subscribe to our newsletters here. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. I am here to forewarn you with your fair do's warning. Forewarned is forearmed. That's what they say, isn't it? I think so.

So I'm here to warn you because today we are talking about eunuchs. And even if you do not possess the equipment under discussion, I promise you, this is going to be a painful one. You just might not want to listen to this today. Or alternatively, you might be sat there rubbing your hands together and thinking, bring it on, let's do it. And if that's you, then I'm with you too. Let's get on with it.

Why on earth would a person choose to castrate themselves or castrate their children? There's a high risk of death. It permanently damages the body. Not to mention, it's incredibly painful and just a really nasty thing to do. But thousands of people have done this throughout history. So there has to be a reason. And the reason is, for a select few, a eunuch could achieve power, influence and wealth beyond the wildest dreams of your regular Joe on the street. The eunuchs were the one that were permitted inside the imperial household. It was a eunuch who was allowed to touch the

emperor. What would the life of a eunuch in the Byzantine court be like? Well, today a betwixt the sheets we are going to find out what do you look for a man oh money of course you're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you i make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning enough and pushing your money yes social courtesy does make a difference goodness my beautiful done goodness has nothing to do with it during oh and welcome back to betwixt the sheets the history of sex scandal in society with me Kate Lister. What do you think of when you think of a eunuch? If you're anything like me, you thought of Varys from Game of Thrones. And maybe it's a word that just makes you cross your legs and wince. But the role of a eunuch, the life of a eunuch, who eunuchs were, is such an important and often

forgotten part of our history. Their role in ancient societies spanned from the sacred and powerful to being enslaved and objectified. They're fascinating figures. And the question has got to be asked, why would people do this to themselves? I spoke to Sean Tuckett to find out more. Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. I'm only talking to Sean Tuckett. How are you? I'm very good. How are you? I've been looking forward to this one for a while. Glad to hear it. So we are talking about eunuchs. I feel like I have to say it like that. Like there should be some kind of like, I think there should be definitely. How did you get into this area of research?

At what point did you go, this is it. This is for me, I need to learn more about this. It's kind of strange because as an undergraduate, I did ancient history in Byzantine studies. So Unix must have come up in lectures and stuff. But it was only when I was doing my doctorate that I sort of began to become more interested in them or more aware of their own history

because I was doing a PhD on an emperor who himself was very interested in Unix, and he legislated on Unix, and he had Unic servants at court, and he built a monastery for Unix. So because of that emperor, that's how I got into it more, really. And because it was a subject which attracts a lot of maybe negativity, or especially in the past in the 19th century, for instance, even in the 20th century, there was a lot of stereotyping about Unix and a lot of dismissive, comments about this group of people, that there was a lot of scope to sort of say, well, hold on, this is a really serious subject and these are important people.

Absolutely. Can I start with a really obvious beginners page one question? Yep. What's a eunuch? A eunuch? Well, it sounds like a simple question, but it's actually, there's sort of a lot of sort of interpretations you can put on it. To me, like the definition I'm using when I talk about unix is castrated males.

And I think true eunuchs are those males who are castrated before puberty, because that is what results in the lack of the onset of puberty and the very distinct physical characteristics of eunuchs. But eunuchs, people could be castrated after puberty. Some people are described as born eunuchs in terms of their biological conditions, so they may have damaged testicles or undeveloped genitalia. Some people are described as born eunuchs in that they simply don't experience. desire at all. So there's quite a range of meanings it can encompass. So the eunuchs aren't particularly interested in are these ones who are deliberately castrated as children for particular purposes. Okay, I'm going to ask a gruesome question now. Are we talking just the testicles off or the whole shebang? Well, it varies in different cultures. I mean, I work especially on late Roman and Byzantine

Unix. And there it is primarily just the testicles. And they're not necessarily cut out. I don't even have some, and I just sent a shiver through me. Okay. Yeah, we have this medical account, so they could just be, like, destroyed or damaged by hand rather than surgically removed. But... I'm going to have to stop you there, Sean. What? I don't know if I want to ask this question. No, I do. I must. In the name of history and science. What do you mean destroyed with a hand? Well, this medical text is really interesting. It's by a man called Paula Vigina, and he describes the two methods and he says, you know, I think sort of the crushing method is really when they're

young children. So he says they're placed in a bath and basically the testicles are just squeezed until they're damaged. So that's what he says. Right. Okay. Sorry. No, no. It's good to know and we're going to talk more about this. And then there is, then there's the knife. There's the knife. Yes. So surgical removal. It's kind of strange because we don't actually have a lot of information about the operation because they don't really talk about it or maybe because it was a bit of a controversial thing that there's not an awful lot to talk about it. Sometimes they say people, you know, were damaged accidentally, which makes you think, well, is that just a cover story? And then you were asking about, you know, are the penises removed as well? And sometimes in some cultures they are. So, for

instance, the Ottoman court, we know that their penises would be removed to and in the Chinese court. And even in Byzantium, we hear about this gift of eunuchs brought to the court in Constantinople from a Western ambassador, and he's bought them in an Islamic context, and they had no penises. So this was seen as more unusual in Byzantium, so it was an unusual gift for the emperor. So it's more unusual for the penises to be removed as well in the context I work in. Yeah, it's pretty gruesome all this, but I need to know, like, I thought that if you tried to castrate some, like you could kill them. There's like arteries, everything. Like there must have been some skill to this.

Yes, I think so. And that's what makes it frustrating. We don't know more. There is sort of a sixth century law by one of the emperors where he talks about the mortality rate. And he says it's very high indeed. I mean, he gives figures, but, you know, he says the majority of the boys died. And that's why he sort of begins to legislate against castration. You know, how much weight we put on that.

figure is another matter. Some families castrated more than one son, so... No, they did. Oh, for goodness sake. There's this family, Byzantine family in the 11th century, and we know that at least three of the brothers were eunuchs, which makes you think that, you know, the mortality rate can't have been that high. That's interesting. You know, enough must have survived to make it worthwhile. But they must have done. Must not. I suppose that's, you know, how many didn't make it is we don't know. And I can say with some confidence it was dangerous to do it because we just know that it would have been.

But I suppose the other question here is, why? What functions did Unix have and why were people doing this? This is the million dollar question. I mean, why do Unix exist? Why do they want Unix? And I suppose they don't often sort of rationalise it in our sources. You know, maybe going back before written records, you know, they would have discussed it. but it seems to be something associated with power, an expression of power if you're rich and powerful

enough to have castrated men around you. Maybe it says something about your own status in terms of wealth, but also in terms of your own masculinity. So it could be to do with that. I mean, there's lots of modern theories about, you know, eunuchs maybe as ideal mediators. So as castrated people, they can mediate between, you know, a divine-like ruler and his subject. You know, you need somebody who can cross that bridge between different types of beings. So there's that idea. And because they're physically distinct, you know, people think, well, maybe they're kind of quite useful visual markers, marking out space within a palace context, for instance, because they're beardless and, you know, they can be tall and quite long-limbed. So there's various theories, you know,

sort of trying to explain what is it about you next that these courts were attracted to. You just touched on it just there. I'm glad that you did because I want to follow this up. What does the removal of the testes and maybe possibly penis about? What is the effect on the body? I mean, apart from the immediate, ouch. Yes. Like, it stops puberty and you said that they were physically distinct. What does it do to the body? Yeah, I mean, this is something that the texts do talk about.

So we have medical texts or philosophical texts, even history. Historians, you know, can talk about what Unix look like. So, yeah, so it prevents the onset of puberty. So testosterone is not as developed. So they don't develop the facial hair. They tend to keep growing. The long bones take longer to seal so they can have quite long limbs. And we see this in representations of, you know, the famous Castrati singers.

You know, they're often portrayed as very elongated figures. They don't go bald. So maybe that's a positive. of castration. Be people listening to just going, oh, well, maybe. Maybe we're thinking about it. Too late for me.

And yeah, and the voice is something that they talk about, like sort of it remains kind of high pitch because the vocal chords don't develop in the same way. So that connects, you know, to the castrato singers as well. You know, their voice is higher, but they've got a big adult chest. So that results in a different sound. So the text do tend to be quite aware of the physical.

look of Unix and they can be compared to angels. You know, they look a bit like angels according to some vortex. Oh, like kind of like chubby sort of angelic faces. Yeah, well, this is, I think this is one of the stereotypes that maybe we have, I don't know, maybe from films from the 70s or carry on films or something, or Frankie Howard. I don't know, we tend to think of Unix as these sort of great big fat, rather lazy figures, but they can be very slim, they can be described as being very beautiful. They can be very active people.

You know, they're not necessarily just stuck in the palace. They can go out on campaign. They can lead armies. They can be sent on missions around the empire. So they're much more active. I think we think of Unix in terms of Harim's, you know, sort of sitting around. That is what I tend to think of this. This is not my area of specialty eunuchs.

So when I think of Unix, I think of they're the ones that guard a Harim and I think a Game of Thrones. Yes. Well, Game of Thrones is really interesting because the main, Unic virus, he is very interesting because he's much more political and he's involved in sort of machinations. And I think that is more like, you know, the kind of Unix I work on. There are court figures, they're important political figures. They have, you know, key offices within the empire. I mean, we do get the Unix who are associated with, you know, looking after women as well.

They do get mentioned. But my view is that Unix, they're much more in the company of men than women. and they are very politically significant or can be very politically significant, the successful ones. Various in Game of Thrones, there was this suggestion all the way through that one of the reasons that he was so good at his job is because he was uncorruptible. You couldn't corrupt him with sex

because he didn't have genitals. And there was this kind of fed him to this idea that that's what made him so sort of sharp and sneaky and difficult to pin down as to what his allegiances are. And all the way through, there's this kind of idea of like, who side is he on? Who said, what's he going to do?

Is that an image of the eunuch that you find elsewhere, this kind of, I don't know what he's sneaky, but he's sneaky. Yeah, definitely. I mean, there are these kind of conflicting ideals of eunuchs. There is this kind of positive negative split. So they can be seen as very loyal, very devoted to their masters. You know, you can totally trust them. But at the same time, you know, they can be seen as, you know, treacherous, corrupt. They love money.

they'll betray people. Where did that come from? They love money. How does not having testicles equate to, oh, I really love money? I think because they don't have families. They can't have children. Okay, right. So maybe any money they do have, you know,

maybe it is seen as more for themselves, perhaps. But obviously, they can have relatives. They can have nephews, nieces, siblings in some contexts. So I think it comes from that. There's also this connection in the ancient text between Unix and money, because one source tells us that they're often appointed as treasurers. So they're seen as being quite good with money for some reason. I'm not quite sure why.

Interesting. But we hear about eunuch treasurers and there can be an office of treasurer, which eunuchs fill in the Byzantine Empire as well. So there is that connection. I mean, Varus is really interesting because in some ways he's a very good representation of, you know, the court eunuch. But I find Game of Thrones a bit weird because it obviously isn't a eunuch society. He seems to be the only one. That's true.

We have the eunuch army. But yeah, so Varus, it seems a bit weird that there aren't more eunuchs if they are using them within a court context. Good point. I'll be back with Sean after this short break. Did Edison really take credit for things he didn't invent? Were treadmills originally a form of corporal punishment?

And would man have ever got to the moon? Without the bra. You can expect answers to all these questions. and more in the brand new podcast from history hit, patented history of inventions. Join me, Dallas Campbell, as I uncover what really sparked history's most impactful ideas. Each episode, I'll be recruiting the help of experts, scientists, historians,

and even a few real-life inventors. Subscribe to patented history of inventions wherever you listen to your podcasts. When I thought of Unix, like I said, I thought that their job was to guard the Harim, but from talking to you, not. They had vast different job prospects, but that makes me think, was there a really clear career progression here? Like, instead of filling out a UCAS form, they were castrating their kids because then they could go on to do all kinds of factors. Like, was that guaranteed?

In Byzantium, I'll talk about Byzantium specifically here because we've got some good evidence here. Yes, we hear about families, and in a particular case, it's a farmer in Papagonia, so that's the size shore of the Black Sea. That's quite poor, isn't it? I mean, not that all farmers are poor, but it's not like the kids of nobility here. No, exactly. So maybe this was an option for poorer families because they knew that, you know, they could send their castrated children to courts,

and they could rise to be the most powerful person in the empire. And if they get rich, then obviously that helps the rest of the family. So we are told that, you know, Paphligonia was a region, particularly given to native people sort of castrating their own children because they knew it could be a good career move. And especially, as you say, you know, if you're struggling, if you haven't got a lot of money or resources, why not take this chance of, I mean, it's terrible to us to get straight your own children.

But to them, you know, you can see why they would think that was. You know, you've just made me think that about sort of very similar to that is families who sold their daughters to brothels, which again, to our modern days, is like, oh my God, that's horrendous. But in these deeply, I think it's like an ancient China, that it was actually, it was almost aspirational because it was a way if you were extremely impoverished. Yes. If you sold your daughter to the brothel, you'd get money, you wouldn't have to keep her. But also, she'd get educated, she'd get trained.

She might be able to meet a rich man and send money back. But were the eunuchs like that? Were they sent somewhere? Like, not a brothel, but like a eunuch training school? Well, that's one of the gaps in our knowledge. I mean, we know Constantinople. That's where the court was based. So we're told that these children went to Constantinople.

What happened when they got there? I mean, were they just taken into Imperial Service and were they trained up? I mean, there must have been training, I think. They must have been sending them somewhere. You wouldn't just cut it off and then go off. You go, I hope for the best. Yeah. I mean, they might have had family members in Constantinople

who maybe sort of, you know, had contacts. Perhaps we know that one of these eunuchs, his uncle worked in the administration himself anyway. But yeah, that's one of the gaps in our knowledge. It's really frustrating. God, that is. Yeah, but I mean, Unix, they can serve private families as well, so it's not all about the court. We hear about sort of aristocratic families having Unix within their household.

So there must have been a way to get those kinds of jobs as well. So it's not all about the court, but the court would have been the major consumer of the Unix. Like there must have been some kind of Unuk training school. Yeah. Like Harry Potter got in Hogwarts, only really shit. That must have been. Maybe it was in the Palis. you know, maybe there's a whole hive of teachers there.

And there's a lot of ritual in the Byzantine court. We know about, you know, the scale of the court as well, how extensive the physical buildings are. So they would have had to have been trained up. And we have a text from the 9th century, which describes, you know, the jobs that are available to them. I was just about to ask that. What are the job options for a budding eunuch?

Well, I mean, there is your basic chamberlain, I guess. So they're sort of just attendance within the private spaces of the emperor or the empress or members of the imperial family. So sometimes we just hear about, you know, Chamberlain's being referenced. But, you know, you could rise up to be the top Chamberlain. So it's often translated as the Grand Chamberlain. And that was often, you know, the right-hand man of the emperor or the emperors. Wow. And they could, in fact, you know, be more like the ruler.

I mean, one of our texts, jokes that, you know, the emperor had some influence with his grand chamberlain. So it's kind of the relationship flipped, you know, the servant is more in charge than the master. Wow. I mean, the payoffs for this must have been significant for people to even do it. I think so. I mean, to me, it often seems quite stressful, but maybe any career was quite stressful in the ancient or medieval world. But, yeah, I mean, the potential gains are enormous. But you would have to be constantly minding your own back.

Because, you know, if you mess up, if you fall out of favour, you can end up dead, basically. And there's a lot of competition at court. You know, there may be up-and-coming eunuchs. It's sounding more and more like the courtesans, the more you talk. Okay. It's male equivalence. Yeah. Well, maybe there's some good comparative work to be done there.

It's the same thing. It's like, you know, like you are only there by favour of the emperor. There's a lot of competition. Women coming up behind you, younger, hungrier, want to take your place and very precarious. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, I think that sounds very similar. And, you know, it does all depend on how well you get on with the emperor, the emperors, the other officials in the court.

And some eunuchs have very long careers. Others, you know, they shine brightly and then they get removed when a new emperor comes in, for instance. So it's quite stressful. but they could become phenomenally rich. They can be great patrons of the arts. They can build their own monastic complex as to which they might retire. So there's a lot of scope there.

I mean, they must have had sort of private lives that we don't really get to see so much in the evidence that survives. Was there a religious element to this? Were the eunuchs revered as sort of somehow sacred and holy? Or is that very much dependent on who you're talking about? There is a religious dimension to it. I mean, this comes even with Christianity, which I think may be surprised at some people.

Because in the Bible, I mean, Jesus himself talks about three types of eunuchs. Does he now? Yes. He says there are born eunuchs and there are eunuchs who are created by men. And then he says there are eunuchs who make themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of God. And there's a lot of debates about what he meant, you know, what the text meant by that. I bet there is. But some early Christians did take a litigms.

and castrate themselves. Oh, whore. Okay. Right. Yeah. So, and, you know, we see that in other religions as well, you know, self-castration as part of it. So there were eunuch Christians and eunuchs, you know, they could be revered Christians. They could be monks.

They could be priests. They could be bishops, even some of the archbishops, Constantinople, were eunuchs. There are eunuch saints. Yeah. And, you know, they could be seen as really significant, pious figures. And, I mean, this goes back to this contrasting ideals of Unix. I mean, some views of them are as these very pure people, but not bothered by any sexual desire. So kind of, you know, the ideal of a Christian pious life, I guess.

So they can be seen in that way. So very self-controlled because of their condition. But at the same time, we have these other views of Unix, which would say they're totally corrupt and sex mad. Sex-mad. They still have desire, yeah, even though they can't sort of achieve it. they want to have sex. Do we know if that's physically possible? Is that a thing? I think the evidence is contradictory.

I mean, some texts are very clear that Unix did feel desire and they could have an ejaculation. And others sort of say, you know, they didn't at all. So maybe it depends on the type of castration or it may just depend on individuals. Or if it was done before puberty or after puberty, maybe? Yes, that as well. I mean, if it's after puberty, then maybe there's more likelihood

that they would still feel or have the ability. But we do hear about Unix being involved in sexual relationships. I mean, they could be passive partner. So even if they themselves don't initiate. Alexander the Great famously had a Unuk boyfriend, didn't he? That's right. Yeah, Begoas and Nero as well and Emperor Domitian. So it seems to be quite a common thing, even in the Christian Empire.

You know, Unix are sort of seen as these kind of potentially sexual parties. I'm just about to ask you, is there a sexual component to this? Because it sort of seems counterintuitive, like you've cut off the sex organs, but that in itself becomes a sexual narrative around this person. Yeah. I think maybe that is part of it as well, or potentially part of it, because, you know, they can be mentioned in relation to that. Or maybe it's something about their general mystique, perhaps.

I mean, maybe that's part of their allure, perhaps, maybe. and there are these strong ideas about them being very beautiful, so attractive to people who look at them. And one text, I think, sort of says, you know, when the slave traders selected the boys, they would pick what were perceived to be good-looking boys. So maybe how they visually appear as aesthetically pleasing is part of it as well. So if slavers were choosing them, that suggests that this wasn't always a case of people going, Mum and dad know what's best for you. Yeah.

Don't forget to write. No, it depends which period we're talking about. I mean, in the Roman Empire, it would be sort of the slave trade. Once we get into the Byzantine Empire, then we do see that families are castrating their own children. So there is a distinction to be made, yeah. Could Unix, in any culture, could they marry or is that forbidden? Did they have relationships? What was going on there?

That's a really interesting one. Because this emperor, I mentioned, you know. Who was it? This is Leo the 6th. He's a Byzantine emperor in the 9th to 10th century. And one of his laws confirms, he sort of says, you know, eunuchs, they can't get married. So he upholds that rule that they can't get married. But he allows them to adopt.

He says, you know, it's not their fault. They can't have children. That's quite nice. Thanks, Leo. So he says, yes, they should be allowed to adopt. I mean, in a Christian context, marriage was for. having children. So that's the context for procreation, isn't it? And because they can't produce children, they were still, well, they shouldn't really be getting married. I mean, I do wonder if there

were maybe, you know, illegal marriages. You know, is that maybe why some of this legislation comes in? Or maybe they did live with people, as if they were a couple, as you said. Again, our sources are very quiet about these things. But I think it's a strong possibility. I think in other culture, I mean, in China, I think they could get married. So it depends which culture we're talking about. Wow. That's fascinating, isn't it? Do we know, have we been left with the names of famous eunuchs?

I mean, we mentioned Begoas for a second there, Alexander the Great's very, very, very good friend. Do we know of others, famous eunuchs? Oh, yeah, we know a lot about the ones who become really important politically. We have a lot of names. We know quite a lot about their careers. Sometimes we know about their families. as well. So there's a very famous one in the sixth century, Narcys, who starts out as a fairly typical

Chamberlain, but then he gets to go on all these special missions. He's very trusted by the emperor and empress. He ends up commanding the army in Italy and leads the reconquest of Italy from the Goths. And, you know, he has a very long career. And when he dies, he's buried in his own monastery. So we can get these really interesting details about their careers for quite a little number of years. I mean, decades in his case. I thought that I read someone, and this might have just been a myth on the internet on like some Reddit forum or something, that some eunuchs, they kept and preserved their testicles that were removed and then they were buried with them. Is that nonsense? I think that's in the case of China, and so they were very particular, because I think

sort of they thought when in the afterlife they'd be kind of reunited, reconfigured. We don't hear about that in Byzantium, but then we hear very little about burial, essentially. But in Byzantium, you know, their testicles are just damaged or excised. So they probably wouldn't have been kept. Imagine like carrying your testicles around in a jar. I was going to say wake up and have you, but they probably weren't under anaesthetic, were they? You'd want to be drunk at least or drugged? Yes, I think so.

I mean, I think, you know, we've got later descriptions of the Chinese case. I think maybe 19th century, which maybe do suggest that, you know, they were anesthetized a bit. But yeah, no, the thought of it with nothing to ameliorate to the pain. That's terrific. Moving swiftly on. Is there sort of any suggestion of eunuchs being viewed as, I don't know how to describe, like almost like a third gender, like a sort of mysterious, genderless person? Does that feature in this? It does. It does. I mean, a lot of the modern academic debate is about, you know,

where do Unix fit in in terms of the gender scheme. But even the ancient texts can sort of say, well, Unix, they're not men and they're not women, so there's something else altogether. So, you know, it really brings to the foregender, you know, what is somebody's identity, you know. Are we just talking about men and women or are there different categories beyond that? So beyond the two-person model, really. So, yeah, they do feed into that. And this comparison with angels sort of feeds into that as well, this kind of special, different type of being.

So there is that element. I mean, sort of it's not fully articulated in the ancient or medieval texts themselves. But, I mean, with the whole awareness of trans now, so there's a lot of interest in considering, well, where eunuchs are they trans? You know, is that how we should think about them? That's an interesting question. So they do tie into these kind of very modern concerns, I think.

I mean, obviously, like not people that were castrated against their will or as children, but there is a history of people voluntarily castrating themselves. And even today, there's a very distinct subgroup. And it often gets read as a sexual fetish of people that voluntarily castrate themselves. Yes, absolutely. We do hear about self-castrate in the... ancient world too. I mean, sometimes it's put into a religious context, but it can be put into a kind of rejection of sex context as well. And I know in particular are these self-help castration

sites in America. The motivation seem to be different. Some people seem to want to do it for sexual thrills as part of an act of sexual life. That's really a one-time deal, isn't it? It better be a big, big thrill. Yeah. And then others, it is more about kind of rejection of the body, which we kind of see within early Christianity itself anyway, sort of wanting to be on like the human passions. So again, there's sort of different motivations. But yes, self-castration definitely is an element of this. And there was, I'm going to pronounce this wrong now,

but the Roman goddess, is it Kailibi, the one who's her priests castrated themselves, and it has been suggested that they were transgender priests. Yeah, this is the great mother or the mother goddess or kibli. She sort of originates in the east. Kibbley, did you say? I don't want to mispronounce the name of a goddess who has people castrate themselves. So Kibli, right, okay.

I usually just go for the mother goddess because then that's easier. The respect, yeah, absolutely. Or the great mother. But this cults became huge in Rome. Rome imported it at the end of the third century BC, and it became absolutely massive. And most of our good evidence actually comes from a Roman context rather than a Greek context. But I have to say, there's a huge debate about these galley. who are these galley and what do they do? I mean, we're told that they did castrate themselves.

But again, there's conflicting information about why they're doing it. I mean, it can be connected to the myth of the great mother because she had this kind of mortal devotee Attis and he cheated on her. So she drives him mad and he castrates himself in this frenzy. So it's kind of a punishment for his cheating. Right. And so they think, well, maybe the galley are kind of copying what Attis did. But some people think, well, that's just a rationalisation of the self-custration. So they're looking for an explanation for it. So there might have actually been other motivations for the self-custration.

Maybe it's kind of the ultimate sacrifice you can make to a god, perhaps, or maybe the testicles are given to the goddess as an offering of fertility. It must have just been there just thinking a voucher's nice as well. You don't have to do it. Yeah, it's a bit, it's again, it's a bit extreme. Fucking more testicles, my gosh. And they're often sort of described as priests, but we don't actually know they were priests.

I mean, they might just have been followers or enthusiasts rather than sort of hanging at definite priestly roles. So the evidence has been more thoroughly scrutinised in recent decades. So there's a bit more question marks about what actually is going on. And they excavated in the Thames a couple of decades ago, didn't they? What they believe are castration clamped? for the great mother goddess. Oh, that's right.

And if you want to ruin your day, listeners, just give that a quick Google, castration clamp, Thames. Yeah, they are pretty frightening. Yeah. Again, I'm sure there's a bit of debate about what they are. So it's not completely true that...

I think maybe, maybe it was sort of more for veterinary work. I don't know. I mean, I've read a bit about it. Okay. But I think there was some question mark about, well, what precisely? Could it be interesting if that cult was here. her as well. Oh yeah. Gali, they were here doing it. The galley, yeah. Well, you might remember this, but

gosh, is it 10 years? Maybe more. Archaeologists discovered this skeleton in Yorkshire, cataric. And it became a huge media story because the archaeologists, they were publishing their report and they suggested that, you know, one of these skeletons was a castrate. One of these eastern priests buried in Yorkshire. So this kind of coming together of Yorkshire and this oriental cult caught the public attention. So the major papers, the tabloids, all reported on it. There was an item on Richard and Judy. It's kind of mad, isn't it?

It was huge. So, yeah, I think people think when they come up against the more unusual aspects of Rome in Britain, that's sort of, it kind of makes them think, oh, you know, the Romans are not just like us, really. They've got all these other things going on. I mean, Yorkshire as well. My goodness, I thought we would have known a bit better. than that. Yes. Well, I mean, was it really a castrated skeleton? But I think the archaeologists, you know, I suspect they thought, right, this is going to get a lot of attention.

This is a good story. This is, yeah, absolutely. It's a good story. And they were right. They were absolutely right. And, you know, it might have been a self-castrate. Just some poor sod that had to self-castrate in Rome and then got sent to Yorkshire to see out his day. Well, I quite like Yorkshire myself. I love, I'm in your, I'm allowed to say these things. Before I let you go, can I ask you about the castrati, the singers? Yes. Does that have an ancient history or was that later?

It definitely does have an ancient history. I mean, as I said, they're very aware of the voice, the distinctiveness of the voice. And ancient texts, I think there's kind of an inscription which, or maybe it's a papyrus, talks about the boy singers. And certainly in the medieval world, in Byzantian. They had eunuchs as singers in the church. So I think, I mean, the castrari, the famous castrari of the Baroque music scene, it really comes out of church music. And I think because they couldn't have women singing in church,

what alternative was to use castrated males for their higher voice. When did the practice die out? And was there like a big campaign? At what point did people go, hang on, maybe this is a bit shit, we shouldn't do this? I think it was always a bit controversial. And there are a lot of stories about people ending up as Unix by accident. But there clearly was an industry because they would have to go off and be trained. And I think, you know, technically it shouldn't have been a lie to happen, but obviously it did.

I think Napoleon was maybe key in kind of beginning to sort of react against it. But it went on a long time into the early 20th century. I think the last Castrato died, Moreski. I think he was quite a famous one. And his voice was recorded in his older. age. So it has a very long history within the church. Opera sort of grew out of that and then tailed off with the changing tastes. I suppose 18th century was the high point. But it did go beyond that. And obviously with countertenors today, there's a huge interest in sort of the performance of this

music and the singing which was, you know, written for Unix. Like Farinelli, he was hugely successful in the 18th century and sang in London. Isn't it funny how like humans can just do something for centuries that is so abhorrent and insane that it takes that long before someone goes, actually maybe slicing the testicles off young children so they can bring us food in our palaces and they can sing us songs is a bit shit. Yeah, but it is pretty amazing how long these things can continue and then how they gradually wake up to the problems. But yeah, I mean, there are parts of the world today where, you know, self-custration still goes on in South Asia, for instance.

Still happened. It's still here. Sean, you, I was going to say you've been a delight to talk to it, but it has been. I don't know what the word is. I've thoroughly enjoyed myself. It's been fascinating. Excellent. And I've been wincing all the way through.

I've loved to talk into you. It has been a revelation. We'll say that. I've enjoyed it very much too. Thank you for having me on. Of course. And if people want to know more about you and your work and they should, where can they find you? If they look me up on the Cardiff University websites, they'll find some details there.

And, you know, I welcome people emailing me. They'll find my email on the university website. So I'm happy to help anybody with queries they've got. Brilliant. Thank you so much for joining me betwixt the sheet. You have been a delight. It's a good start to January. Thank you for listening.

And thank you so much to Sean for joining me. And if you like what you heard, did you like that? I don't know if like is the right word. If you were moved by what you heard, if it had an impact on you, please don't forget to like, review and subscribe wherever it is that you get your podcasts. Join me again, Betwixt the Sheets for History of Sex,

scandal and society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast includes music by Epidemic Sounds.