Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Genghis Khan's Sex Life

Episode Date: January 31, 2025

As historical figures go, Genghis Khan has something of a reputation.Is there any truth to the rumours of him fathering so many children? What was life like in 12th century Mongolia? And how did he create one of histories most noted empires?Joining Kate today is historian Marie Favereau, author of The Horde: How The Mongols Changed The World, to help us find out.This episode was edited and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.All music from Epidemic Sounds/All3 Media.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. I am me, you are you, and this is betwixt the sheets. But before we can go any further on our little adventures together, I do have to let you know that this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things

in an adulty way covering a range of adult subjects, and you should be an adult too. And if you are of a sensitive disposition, we'll just sod off now. We don't need you around here, crying and whinging and just, and causing a scene. Right, on with the show. Out here on the Mongolian step in the 12th century, life is transient.

Tribes look for pastures new with their livestock, moving in sync with the seasons. And you know what? It's absolutely bloody exhausting. Can we not just settle and put down some roots? I'm sick of living out of my suitcase, constantly dragging it along the Mongolian plains. But this one family that I've been bunking with seem to absolutely love it. In fact, they all do, so who on earth might judge? Not only that, but their son Timurgeon, seems like quite an ambitious fellow, and he's talking about one day uniting the tribes of Mongolia

to create one of the most powerful empires in history. Don't kids say the craziest things? But what will become a this boy who will one day be called? Bopopopoam Jenghis Khan. Well, I am ready to find out if you are. Let's do it. What do you look for a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.

I make perfect confidence of whatever my voice needs. by just turning enough and pushing your body. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, I'm beautiful then. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Terry. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society. With me, Kate Lister. He's spoken of as one of the really big monsters in history. Even his name, Jenghis Khan, which isn't actually his birth name, it's a stage name,

means universal leader. He wasn't shy. But who was the man behind the real? reputation. Was he really the all-conquering, sexually violent man that we've been led to believe he was? Did Jenghis Khan have a softer side? And what was 12th century Mongolia really like? Well, joining me today to find out is historian Marie Fevereaux, to take us back to this world and help me find out. So without further ado, let's crack on. Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Marie Favaro. How are you doing? I'm doing very well. Thank you.

I'm so excited to have you here because we have never, ever spoken about Genghis Khan on this podcast, which seems a spectacular oversight. And you are the author of, I'll give it the full title, The Horde, How the Mongols Change the World. So, as a starter question, what made you want to write a book about the Mongol Empire and Mr. Khan? Thank you for your question. Well, actually it goes back to when I was a student in history in Paris, I started learning about big empires. You know, I learn about the Ottoman Empire, the Abbasid Empire, the Roman Empire, obviously. And then suddenly I heard about some Mongol Empire.

It was whole on you for me. And when I start looking for books for information, well, it was 20 years ago, right? But actually, I found nothing. I mean, everybody said, we have nothing. This was a nomadic empire. Maybe there was not so many written sources. We don't have enough information. And it's an obscure empire.

So it triggered my interest very honestly. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to find some information. So I started traveling all around Central Asia, Basitia and Russia, to find information. And I'm still traveling and leaving in Central Asia. But I found a lot on this Mongol empire. So who were the Mongols then? Who was the Mongol Empire? Because I think most of my knowledge of Genghis Khan is informed by Bill and Ted's excellent adventure,

which is not very helpful here. So who were they? Okay, yes, sure. Well, then, look, the first time we see the name Mongol in the sources, historical sources is around the 12th century. Actually, we see it very rarely before, but it's really in the 12th century that we see this name appearing as name of her. kind of new nomadic people, very active in what is Mongolia today. So basically the eastern Eurasia, right?

So it's north, north of China and east of Central Asia in this area, very cold, a lot of steps. Nomadic people living there are herders. So we see this name appearing, Mongol, and we see also that apparently there were a lot of, interestingly, state experience there, old state experience, like empires, existed before the 12th century. Not with the name Mongols. It was associated with other names like Turks, like Uyghur. Maybe, you know, some of our listeners have heard of those names.

Turks come from eastern Mongolia. They come from the east of Arabia, yeah. And they build empires there. So when Mongols are peering around the 12th century, they were before strong experience of state organization, strong armies, conquest, trade, also a lot of diplomacy with China and with Central Asia. So it sounds new to us, Westerners, but if you think about the 12th century, this Iran, the world already had a lot of

experience. And that's where Jingxhan is born. So the Mongols, they are their nomadic. They value horse riding. I'm sorry, this is going to sound really ignorant of me now, but did they build towns and cities or were they just always on the move? That's a very important question. So actually, it's both. They are on the move. They move with seasons, you know? It makes sense.

Weather is bad here. You move there, right? And also, you are big herds. So the animals, they move with you, and they need good grass. They need new water, fresh water. So you need to move them. So the move is makes sense. But what is interesting is they also build cities.

They built monuments. They are interested in permanent structures. They don't live. in those structures, they don't live in the cities. They make other people live in them, but they don't stain them themselves. They finance. They are happy to pass through them. Sometimes they organize like ceremonies, like rituals in cities.

Wow. But they don't live in them. So we, historians and archaeologists in Mongolia, when we work in Mongolia today, we find the traces of these old archaeological remains, like old cities, you know. But we also know that these people were nomads and never wanted to settle down in city.

They never wanted to be closing to four walls. They still continue their life as herders. They like the love and value the freedom of the life in the step. And they're also clever because, you know, in this area, winter is super cold and summer is super hot. So it makes sense to move, you know, just to sort of escape the difficulties of weather. So was there one huge...

Mongol tribe or multiple smaller. I'm just trying to get a sense of how the empire worked. Was there like select groups that fought one another or did they get along or how is it set up? We know in 12th century there were a lot of fights among smaller groups. We can call them tribes. Some people like to say people. There are a lot of names. But they also have their own names. Mongol is just one among other names that we see at that time. There's another name that is famous, which is Tatar. Tatar name is famous too. But, you know, they were Congira people. So all these people, they have named.

They shape groups or tribes, if you prefer. And they have alliance. They have fights. It's a very lively area. Politically speaking, they don't fight all the time. They also trade amongst themselves. They have some differences, but they understand each other. Like they have some common rules.

Hospitality, point is important. The fact that you're a her. the fact that you live with the seasons, it's like common to all those people. They also have some ritual, like religious rituals. They believe in the spirits of the land and the spirit of nature, lakes, river, mountains. They have all this in common, you see. But, you know, there's no unity. And Jenghis Khan is going to change that because he's going to build up the unity of the tribe,

the unity of the nomads in the step. And that's something really new. And it's going to take him a lot of time, probably more than 20 years. All right. So let's talk about, you said Jengis and I say Genghis. Which one is it? Because I don't want to get it wrong. Well, look, I would say Gingis is correct.

But if we want to say Genghis, it's fine too. Yeah. But Jingis, Genghis Han. And Jenghis Han, you know, is a title. It's not his first name, actually. He has a name. Isn't it? Yeah.

His name is Temegin. Temegin, it means something like blacksmiths. And it's his real name. And Jinghis Han is a title. It's a stage name. It's, yes, exactly, yeah? So we can call him television. Oh, I wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of him, though,

because he does have a reputation as quite a fearsome historical character, doesn't he? And he's sort of one of those iconic historical characters that we think we know things about, but we almost certainly don't. And he has a reputation for wildness and savagery and. Am I right in thinking that George R.R. Martin based the Dothraki of what he thought the Mongol hordes were? So I've got a bit of like that's in there as well. Can you clear some of this up for us and tell us, first of all, where did Jenghis Khan come from? What is his origin story? Because if he wasn't born Jenghis Khan, he was born blacksmith. It was born blacksmiths. Yeah. But you see blacksmiths in this world at that time, it's already an elite title. It means you,

can work with metal, it means you're coming from maybe iron smith's family. It means you're coming from a good tamety. It's not anyone can be, you know, pretend being a blacksmith. And blacksmith's metal means, you know, iron, it means weapons, it means wealth, it may be strong, all this. So his father is not like a king. It's more a local chieftain, we think. But he might have had a famous grandfather. We're not sure of that, but we think maybe he's grandfather was a very, very powerful man. So it's not coming from anywhere. In the step, he's coming

from aristocracy. It's already like from warrior family and is somebody when he's born. But then his father died when he was young and the family lost control of the tribe. And the mogul just basically left his mother. It was when he was around a 10 years old, he was really alone with his mother and brothers and sisters. And he had really a harsh time. this has been describing the sources, trying to fight for, you know, to survive in those steps and being, you know, feeling it has been abandoned by his own people. So the idea is to show he's coming from this aristocracy, but at the same time, he's a self-manman also, you know, he had to fight to reach the throne and to build up what would become

this special character, Jinghizhan. And this title, Jinghish Han, basically, is a completely unknown title. because at that time in the step or even in medieval world, you know, title are reused. You know, Caesar, you know, I don't know, a lot of titles are like circulates. This title is for us historians. As we can see, looking at sources, it's completely new. He invented his own title.

So I like this character. Someone was like, he has his heritage, he has this tradition, empire before him, the Great Turks and all. But at the same time, he has. to build up something new. And so the combination of both is very interesting, very dynamic. So he's born, and it seems like there's a sort of a warrior lineage, he's born from a good family, then they lose control and they're kind of cast out

when he's a young boy, is that right? Exactly, yeah. How did you get to be the chieftain, the king, the ruler in these cultures? Is it an inherited right? Or is it, I'm the strongest, so I win? I know. It's very interesting. There are different elements. Or, okay, you need to be well-born. That's clear. It's there. But you have to fight. You have to show you're available to your people.

So the idea is like you cannot be a kid. You cannot be a very old man, neither. You have to be in between because you have to be able, physically able, like to go on the battlefield or to negotiate in terms of diplomacy or to also make children at this. So you have to be reading the full power, like physically and mentally. That's also there. So being well-born is not enough. It's a good thing, but it's not enough. And also when we say being well-born, it's important to understand it's not only through your father line, but through your mother line as well.

The mother is very important. And also the generation, the pedigree through the Margaret line is absolutely there. So you have to show you have both. And then you have to show you're able on the bat of it. Because the difference with Western Europe is it's not only about the eldest son in a family. So if you have a brother or even a cousin or a nephew who's super able, but then you have to fight with this person because it's not necessary to the eldest son. It can be any son, any son clever, physically powerful and also able probably to create some

diplomacy and to be well accepted and appreciated by others. This is also super important. If you act too harshly to your people, they're going to leave you at some point. And no matter this freedom to leave, right? Yeah. Wow. So this sounds like quite a harsh childhood. I don't know, I wasn't expecting Jenghis Khan to have had a comfortable, well-adjusted childhood. But this sounds like it's quite, it's quite brutal. It was, and it sounds like there were some points where he might not have survived. So what happens from this little boy that's been cast out? How does he become the warrior? There are different steps. One, his father before he died, married his son, Timitian, to a young girl.

I mean, young. She was one year older than his son. So they were at that time around nine and ten years old. It doesn't mean the marriage really happened, but they were promulags to one another. We understand. And this girl, Berthe, she's going to really support her fiancé and then husband. And her family is kind of a rich family. So she's going to bring some wealth to Genghis, to Temu Kyi. And Temurjin is going to use the wealth. So this wealth at that time is actually it's like a pelt. It's a fur.

It's a black skin, black fur. It means millions at that time. Wow. So it's not cats. It's not cash, but it's like cash, right? It's this black sable for a fur coat, if you want. And this fair coat, he's what's going to give it to him, is going to use it, and it's going to buy his first very important ally through this, by giving this coat to him.

And this king, local king called Hong Khan, he has a number of names sources, was like the local ruler, local king in the steppe from carried people. also another type of people, but still nomadic people, and it was very powerful. He was a good friend of Jamijin's father, and Jameson come and said, look, I give you this fur,

this fur coat, that means be my ally. We have to fight together. And can you fight with me? Can you help me? And since that time, they start to sort of work together, and that's the first step, I would say.

But it's interesting because you look at the first step. It's not a military step. It's a diplomacy, diplomatic goal, that why? And also it's how Jenghis use, whatever is in his hands. So he got his marriage, he got the fur coat, then he got the first strong ally, then he will move on always. And always we negotiate his position, never get until.

He's like, okay, I have this, now I want more. And I will build on what I have. And we negotiate his relationship to his neighbors, to his allies, and that's where you see the character taking shit. So he's got a fur coat, which by all accounts was a very impressive for goats. When does he take the name, Jengis, and what does it mean? Well, we think the name was taken around at the end of the 12th century.

Maybe, I mean, there's a key date, which is 12 or 6. It's interesting. 12.6, the date where we know is already known as James Hamm. And he has made already his work as unified many tribes in Mongolia. But he's not young. He is already something like 40. He has already a long experience. And that's where you can see that it's going to develop a second career and it's going to go out of Mongolia with his truth. Go to China and Central Asia. We can talk about this later. But then 12 or 6, we know this name becomes famous. And he sort of say, this is my title. And we think this title means something like maybe world. or universal leader. I mean, Han is a king, is an emperor, so he's a leader. Jingis is more complex to interpret.

It might mean the sea. At that time, there's this idea that around the world, there's an ocean which sort of goes all around the world. So Jingis might mean the name of this ocean, like the ocean around the world, which would mean actually the king of the world, right? So that is an interpretation. But we're not sure, but that's certainly part of this, maybe ambition,

not to be king of the whole world, because what is the whole word for these people of that time? What do they know about the world? But certainly to be the king among his people and the king of the nomad. That's also something you can see clearly for people at that time. The most important in the world are nomadic people. And that's where, you know, Jenghis kind of wants to build up, you know, his name. and also to sort of create a dynasty, pushes family to be like the leader,

the leader of the nomads in the whole step. Am I right in thinking that his first wife, Barty, was kidnapped and that he had to go and rescue her? Absolutely. So kidnapping women is something that happened at that time. We see it was also first with Changi's mother. Jingke's mother, she had been kidnapped by Changi's father.

Oh. She was promised to say, someone else and she has been kidnapped. So we know that it happened. Well, the thing is marriage at that time is very much kind of a political alliance. So if you want to sort of develop your power, if you want to grow politically speaking also, your wife is super important and especially your first white. So that's why on the one hand for Genghis Berty was very important. She gave him to his fur coat, as you know. She was loyal to him because they were compromised to each other in their youth and she remained tasteful to him. But then the people of his mother, who lost his mother

because she was kidnapped from them, the men of kids people, they decided to get their revenge and they kept their wife because of his father and mother's story. So this all revenge thing is interesting. But most importantly, I would say, is Jenkis really had a long, long fight to get her back. The idea is not okay, well, I lost my wife, and then I can have other wives. It's, no, I want her back. And that was also one of the key aspect of his alliance with the border gave the faircote too. Okay, I lost my wife back. So there are different stories in Sorsi.

They were some fights, some battles, but also negotiations behind it. And she came back to him. and they will always remain in all the forces, as we can see, a couple. They will always remain the couple. They will have four sons together, and the four sons they have together who are going to be founders of new dynasties in all Central Asia, in northern China, in Mongolia. So this is a real beginning of the story of the family's history of a couple.

So you cannot study James Bond without studying virtually his first wife. they are really so together since the beginning. And although, of course, you know, historical sources, official sources, you know it's not always the truth. But it means that for the people of the time, it was important at least to portray them as a couple and to show how she was so important to him.

A power couple. Yeah. I'll be back with Marie after this short break. He fell out with his brothers, didn't he? There was a lot of fighting and going to war with his brother. others. Yep. Well, it said it was the source is that he killed his half-brother was the eldest that came in the family. Right. For fighting over fish. Of course. Yeah. The idea is really to make people understand. They have a lot of harsh lives. They have to share the food. And when you share

the food, you share the food according to the hierarchy of the family. And there's a fight because Jingis and his and his eldest brother, they don't have the same mother. Well, Genghis is not the eldest in a way. So he has to show, okay, there's no negotiation. I'm the leader. So I think that's behind the story. I see. We don't know if he really killed is how bother.

But what it means behind is like there's no negotiation about who's the leader. It's by respect. Exactly. Yeah, it's all about respect. And also spoilt. I mean, it's also when you get a victory, when you share, you share, but you share according to people's rights. that's also the other thing.

So everybody got to share, but according to birth rank or, you know, social rent, that's also behind the story. Now, Jenghis Khan is known for a lot of things. He's got a reputation for extreme violence and like bloodthirsty going into battle. You wouldn't want to mess with him. How fair is that? Would you have said that he was more violent and aggressive than other people or is that well deserved? Yeah, that's very important question. And also how to answer. What I would say is not totally fair in the sense that why we would have been more, you know, blood surcity than others in history, and even I dig some of the greats or I don't know, any tax or we want to pick up, you know, from the past. It's clearly not after blood. When you look at his action, his career, even everything we know from sources is his idea is certainly to build up an entire. So it is a good. kind of half-scholar in that sense, but he looks for diplomacy, he looks for negotiation,

he looks also for, and sometimes he made mistakes, and he acknowledged he made mistakes. And it's interesting, his mother, for instance, or his wife, would be presented in sources that are telling him, you know, you made mistakes. You either the mother saying, you kill, you have brothers, this is horrible, how do you do that? You have to be all together. We are one family. for his wife also advising him to do this and that. And you can see that he listened to that.

He's not someone who was sort of crazy and, you know, just going for finance. It's not the part of a wild person. Exactly. So now the very like negative part of Jekis Pan also is from later time because during colonial period also in the West and one more than in the West and in Russia and China, the idea that nomads could have been at some point, you know. the rulers of the world or worlds, even their own countries, was not that were appreciated,

and they looked into sources to fight anything negative about him. But the truth is, yeah, I mean, there have been war, they've been violence that is absolutely uncertain, but it's not worse than another. And even we know that he said, I want new subjects, I don't want dead people. So, you know, if you compare a city, you need to, okay, make prisoners,

if you want, but what I want is taxpayers. It's not slaves who are dying, you know, because this makes no sense. So this is more rational than, you know, the portrait, the popular portraits that has been built to movies and stuff like that. I can't imagine that you would be able to successfully build an empire without subjugating and being quite cruel and being quite a brutal leader because they all were. But he wasn't mad, which is kind of how he's often portrayed as this wild, completely crazy person. He wasn't that at all. No, absolutely not.

And he's also super interesting because he can really move from, as you said, like battle to diplomacy, negotiation. You know, he had different faces, right? And I think also

it's interesting to look at what are the goal. You know, he's not after, the idea is not, I wanted to educate the world. It never said, or we have no tracing forces

where he just said he wanted to be the leader of the world. what he wants is certainly to be the leader of a nomad. But that's different, right? And also, we have to remind that imagine 13, 13th century, what is more precious from that time than men and women than people? People are the most precious things. So what Jenkins is after is to enroll more people.

He wants to integrate people. And to do that, of course you can just make prisoners, but you also have to convince people. because jingis and the nomadic leader are not stupid they know that if you force people and start going to laugh and they always think about the future and this is really clear you know that's really the nomadic mind a lot of people might be quite surprised to hear about jenghis's wife bertie

not that he was married i don't think that'll surprise anyone but the idea that there was at one point one wife because if there's something else that jengis is known for it's for being an absolute sex rampaging dirtbag, can't keep it in his pants, having it away with absolutely everything. He has that reputation of sexual aggression and sexual assault is attached to him as well. So can I ask you how far is that warranted? Did he have more than one wife? And where does that reputation come from?

Yeah, this is so interesting. Okay. So yes, he had more than one wife. So in this nomadic world, there's no restriction on number of marriage. So you can have as many work as you can afford because, of course, you have to be fair to them and, you know, we need to care with them. So only needers have several wives, like you can see later on in the missing world. That's one thing. Other interesting thing is, of course, that is no religious restriction, like in, you know, Christian world.

There's religious restriction, you know. It doesn't mean that people have sexual restrictions. doesn't mean that socially, they can have only one. So in this mongo world, you can have socially, you can have even more than four, which is like the number in the same world. But only the first one or the primary one can really provide the hair with some that are going to be fully legitimate to get the throne.

They are coming from the couple. So the couple is super important, official. You see the couple everywhere in miniatures. You know, there's a lot of images depicting the couple being in love on the throne. And it's true, they officially show themselves as a couple.

So like if you are an ambassador, you come to James to present, you know, a gift, you're coming from a faraway country, you will see him and you will see these whites, his first white, together on the same throne. The other son with two, you know, two seats. So that's this idea of, you know,

some sort of equal standing between the wife. So that's one aspect. Of course, at the same time, they are also. And these other wives are important as well, politically speaking, but they are under the authority of the first wife. So very much, normally she controlled the other wives. That's how it works. It's super hard people. Imagine, yeah. Okay. But last thing is, concerning, like, sexual, like, assault and stuff like that. So this is coming from later narratives. So for Jingbis himself, we have absolutely no description in any sources about raping a woman or just even saying it's good to do it or sort of letting his armies, uh, having, enjoying women like feeling it's never there. No evidence of that

at all. Not evidence of that at all for him. That's amazing. Uh, but imagine for formidable period, just the fact that he can have as many women as he walks in terms of whites, right, or concubines. already is like, it means these are crazy sexually, right? It means there's no limits, which actually is not true. There are limits, but, you know, it was seen as such. Then also, of course, in latent sources, especially with one of his tongue, we have description of rape during Mongol conquest in different places. And it's clear that, unfortunately, like, you know, conquest, armies, they, you know, led by men

and they were very, yeah, sure, there were some sexual violence, certainly. Of course. They cannot deny this. But it's not something that it's supported by Genghis or, you know, saying that he's good, he's good to act like this, obviously not. And then finally, of course, I have to say as a history, and I'd love to know more about real sexual life or of the time or even love, he might have or not for his wife and the love she might have or not for him.

In sources, it said that they had a feeling for, on sovereign. I mean, it looks like so. And at least they really worked together at a couple in the same direction for a period of time. But I have to add that we know when James died, we don't know when it's worth that. And she was the first movie. So it means that at some point, she became less important or she disappeared. We don't know how she disappeared. We don't know what happened to her at the end. Someone asked the other wives. Exactly. So I think, yeah, there's a lot of mysteries, but you have to keep in mind that still on. Whether maybe something happened were at some point.

I'll be back with Marie after this short break. In 2003, there was a study, wasn't there, of Asian men, and they found that 8% of all men in Asia descended from one gene source, and it was speculated that that was Jenghis Khan, which I suppose hasn't helped his reputation as a top shaggar. What can you tell me about that piece of research? Well, this is very credible and for a number of reasons, although it's interesting. First of all, I have to say, I have to tell that we don't have changed his body.

We don't know where James has been buried. We don't know. No, it's a secret if we're kept in today. Their expectation and interpretation and ideas, maybe it's in Mongolia and Burhan and Fadun. Some other people say have other ideas, but in any case, we don't have to eat his DNA. That's the first thing I want to say. So anything else is a guess.

But it's true now that we work more and more on DNA that there's a connection between many people in Central Asia, from Mongolia to Hungary, let's say. And they have some common origin somewhere. So people guess because it was so easy and they say, oh, it comes from Jenghisth's spirit and from him himself, you know? Yeah.

Maybe, but nowhere you can prove it. that point. So we need more study. Also, I heard from comics, we're working on DNA that we don't have enough studies on European, you know, also regions, but it might have been the same. Like, not that they are all coming from Jingis at all, but that they might have some common origin at some points. So we need to work more than that, but I think what is key to understand the few of his forum is that being from Jingis was. for a very long time until actually since the 18th century

the best thing that could add up into you because it's the best category. It means you're coming from the elite of the elite. So people would anyway claim that they were coming from Genghis. It would be the best if you want to be a ruler, if you want to be a warrior, if you want

to be respected in all Central Asia. And they were dynasties coming from Genghis until the 18th century and in many places. So it's funny because until late 18th century, he was really a blessing to say or to prove the two coming from James family. And then colonial period, modern time, it's like a shape. And now today, we are more balanced. So final question then, how did Jenghis die? What took him out? That's so important that we still guess. He died much long, okay? Probably 60-something, which are that

time it means, you know, long career and so on. We know he died in 12, 27. We know he died probably during summer, probably August. And at that moment, these armies were in what is now Western China, central Western China, Tangut's Kingdom of that time. Tangut, he built against the long-go, so Mumbai, where part Japan and fighting it all. We know he probably, he was as being endured at some point, or maybe it was sick. Some of the sources say maybe he was sick, so some people, because I have a plague, but we don't know. There were plenty of terrible disease at that time. So one of them, either injured, either during strikes, either sick, but it was not young,

so it's kind of normal. But the interesting thing is, they hide, at that time, they decided to hide the fact that he died. Because, first of all, they wanted to continue their conquest, and it's hard to save a little die. The other reason is they had no idea about suppression, what actually, and who had really sweet. be the successor and he had also at that time three sons one was dead already but then they were discussion about that and last

they wanted to there was some taboo around the body they wanted nobody to approach his body to touch his bones and splash he was like almost becoming a god so they sort of found a secret place where he had been buried and protected and it's still today

you know all super protects it and we thought, no, we guess, but we're not sure. And I think it's, I think maybe among all the leaders of the world, he's the one along with so much mystery, how he died and where he has been, you know, buried. That's why his DNA relives also a big question mark. I just don't know. Marie, you have been fascinating to talk to you. Thank you so much for coming to tell us about this. Very misunderstood, but still quite violent, man. If people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? I think they can find my book of the Horde.

They can also find Yolana. I work in an institute in I live in Kyrgyzstan, Dishke, starting in Central Asia. It was really the core of James Hans Empire, where I live now. And I conduct my research there. And they can also find some documentaries. I've been part of Smithsonian Channel. Janis Hans Mongolia have been part of this documentary. That's fantastic.

Oh, thank you so much. you have been wonderful to talk to. Thank you so much, Keith. It was such a pleasure for me. Thank you for listening, and thank you so much to Marie for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like with you and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hi, then you can email us at betwixt at history hit.com.

Coming up, we've got episodes on the Sex Lives of the Spartans and a special collaboration with the Cautionary Tales podcast all come in your way. This podcast was edited and produced by Stuart Beckwith, the senior producer, with Charlotte Long. Join me again, betwixt the sheet of the history of sex scandal and society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.