Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - History of Make-Up

Episode Date: August 8, 2023

Most of us present ourselves with some form of cosmetic, so it’s strange that historically there’s been so much judgement around the use of it.It’s something that’s been there from the Ancient world to the present day, and speaks to so much of the human experience.Today we’re joined by Susan Stewart, author of Painted Faces - A Colourful History of Make-Up, to answer questions such as, how did religion shape beauty trends? What does make-up tell us about different social standings through time? And what were the effects of Queen Elizabeth’s lead-based face powders? Spoiler: it wasn’t the most beautiful result.This episode was edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. If you're enjoying Betwixt please vote for us at the British Podcast Awards here. It would mean the world to us!Discover the past on History Hit with ad-free original podcasts and documentaries released weekly presented by world renowned historians like Kate Lister, Dan Snow, Suzannah Lipscomb, Lucy Worsley, Mary Beard and more.Get 50% off your first 3 months with code BETWIXT. Download the app on your smart TV or in the app store or sign up at historyhit.com/subscribe.You can take part in our listener survey here. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Sleeper Twliper Twixters, it's me, Kate Lister. I am here once again to help you stay safe. This is a podcast of an adult nature. It's spoken by adults to other adults in an adulty way about a range of adult subjects, and you should be an adult too.

And if you persist in listening to this and you get offended, well, don't come crying to us because fair do's, you were warned. But Twixta, won't you come in and join me at my dressing table? Today we are in Versailles and I am just colouring my veins with blue, you know, so they really pop and people can see them through my delicate, uber pale, thin skin. I've just put some white flour in my hair, washed my face with a cleanser made of stewed pigeons, which have been fermented for around about two weeks, and I'll be applying a white creamy powder, a slight rouge to my cheeks and lips, and of course, I'll be covering up my smallpox

scars with faux beauty spots. I like to draw them in little heart shapes. Don't I sound sexy? This is 18th century France, my dear, and we do like to look good. So today we are going betwixt the powder stain sheets to take a closer look at makeup throughout the ages, from ancient Egypt to pre-revolutionary France, right up to the present day. What do you look for a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning enough and pushing the funny.

Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, I'm beautiful done. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Derry. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the History of Sex Scandal and Society. With me, Kate Lister. If you're over the age of 10, and, in fact, you should be if you're listening to this Then you have already lived through multiple beauty trends. Thick eyebrows, thin eyebrows, contouring, don't contour, a dewy look, a matte look, winged liner, bright eye shadow, crimped hair, I could go on and on and I have no doubt

there will be so many more trends coming our way. Beauty ideals are changing and coming background all the time, for better or for worse. But there are some trends I hope are never resurrected from history. lead-based face powders, for example, mouse-hair eyebrows or face masks made from dog shit. Today we are looking at the history of makeup with author Susan Stewart. Why did smooth skin become a religious matter? What did lipstick say about your social status in the Middle Ages?

And who was selling poison makeup to Renaissance women so they could bump off their husbands? But before we get into all of that, this is the point in the show where I ask you, if you wouldn't mind, just please, please do us a little favor. I'm being serious now. If you would please do us a little favour and vote for us for the Listeners' Choice Awards

at the British Podcast Awards. You can follow the link in the show notes. And if enough of you click on the link, then not only do I have to stop nagging you about it, but we might even win, guys. We might even win. Right, let's get back to the show. So, and welcome to Bertwix the Sheets.

It's only Susan Stewart. How are you doing? Not bad. I'm recovering from her. cold, but yeah, I'm fine, thank you. Summer colds, they're just the worst, aren't they? They just go on and on and on. Oh, well, do you know, I absolutely appreciate you taking the time to be here even more.

And I'm so glad you are because yours is a subject that I adore. I'm such a sucker for makeup. I love it. I am so easily parted from my money when it comes to makeup. It doesn't, I've got a PhD and yet all of my IQ falls out my ear when I'm confronted with a 21-year-old TikToker going, this is the best product. ever. Yeah, well that's what the companies are counting on. Oh, every time. But you study the history of makeup and cosmetics. I suppose my first question to you is a question that I get a lot of someone

that studies the history of sex is why? Why do you study that? What's the point of that? You know, it kind of makes you really angry and go, well, I'll fucking tell you what the point of this is. But why study makeup? Well, perhaps I should tell you a wee bit of how I got into it. And then that sort of explains it a bit. I left university a very long time ago, but by a twist of fate, I was able to get the opportunity to go back and do a PhD. And when I was setting out to do that, so that was in the mid-1990s, dress was really the sort of thing. Everybody was really interested in dress, and I thought, oh yeah, I'll go down that route. Because the subjects that I had done at uni concentrated, it was ancient history in Latin,

concentrated largely on economics and wars and things like that. So nobody was really interested in the social side of it, and I had always been fascinated by that. It very quickly got narrowed down to cosmetics and perfumes, and when I started it, I had absolutely no idea that there was so much information out there. And that goes for not just the Romans who I was doing my PhD on, but across the centuries. And that, I think, sort of draws out the fact that it's not,

irrelevant, but it's fundamental to our projection of ourselves to others. And it's also all about gender to some extent, but not always. It's not necessarily the most important aspect of it. It's also about wealth and health and things like that. So it marks us out as defines us in a sort of a way. I think that's true. And surprisingly enough, everybody has something to say about cosmetics. Most of history of course is written by men, but many of them have a great deal to say about cosmetics. So the mere fact that it's mentioned so often enhances its importance, I think. We have such a strange attitude to it, don't we? Because a lot of what's been said about cosmetics is quite judgmental. But what do we mean by cosmetics? Because surely we all attempt to present ourselves

in them, I mean, there are some people out there who just roll out of bed and just raw dog it through their lives and just don't make any effort whatsoever. But most of us, even if it's washing your face or trying to smell nice or combing your hair, or we're trying to present ourselves. So it's strange that there's so much judgment around that. Perhaps we have to see beyond the rhetoric though, because there is an awful lot of rhetoric and the reality of the use of cosmetics is very much different. It was much more commonly accepted, particularly because in the early days, and back in the ancient, or whatever. It was very closely associated with medicine. So the eye makeup, that has a religious connotation that's eye of ra. And also it was used to keep the flies and the sort of dust out

of their eyes. So it's not just about wearing it as to beautify. There's a lot more to it than that. I didn't know that. The link between makeup and medicine. Is that quite well established? Yes. I suppose in a way it's kind of coming back round again in terms of scented things. So the last book I wrote was actually about perfume. So, you know, aromatherapy, things like that, things that make you smell good. But in the ancient world, I mean, face creams were meant to heal as well. And the Renaissance period, it would be to conceal the ravages of disease or to try it almost as a prophylactic perhaps as well to prevent the marks from appearing.

Wow. Let's try and take it right back. What is the earliest evidence that you found in your research of human beings using something that we could call like cosmetics? I would kind of hazard a guess that as soon as we'd finish drawing willies on cave walls, we went, or didn't know got any mascara? Like, what's the earliest evidence that you found? Well, obviously, when it goes back to prehistoric times, we've got no writing, so we don't know exactly why they were using it. Not that we're relying on writing because there's lots of evidence about cosmetics and art and no.

literary, like graffiti, things like that as well. But I would say that we can perhaps imagine that in prehistoric times belonging to a tribe or a mark or some sort of religious significance. There's Otsey who is the Iceman, the Iceman, yes. He has tattoos of some sort on his knees, on the back of his knees and on his ankles, which may be for decoration, but they also might be pressure points to do with arthritis, because we think he may have suffered from arthritis.

So again, they were using them for a dual purpose, not just as a definition of themselves, yes, but also in terms of perhaps religious allegiance or tribal allegiance or for health purposes. How old is Oxy exactly? He's really old, isn't he? Yeah, so he died. We think about 3,000.

250 BC and he has a large number of tattoos actually. He has a 61 tattoos. I didn't know that. Wow. But the ones we're sort of identifying as perhaps a little bit more than just cosmetic would be the ones on his ankles and on the back of his knees

which don't seem to be particularly prominent places that you would put something that he wanted somebody to notice. It seems that it might have been something that he used to treat arthritis or something. sort of muscular illness that he possibly suffered from after all he was quite a appears to being quite an athletic and busy man which inevitably his structure would have worn down over time have we found other preserved bodies with similar tattoos or yeah there are some from

the ancient chinchirro culture which is in Chile and they date from around 1,800 BC they seem to have moustaches tattooed on their faces. of why that makes me laugh. I know. We don't really know why. And there's some Bronze Age ones as well that show that they took care of their bodies. Brongy burials where you find things like tweezers and other artefacts that could have been used for basic hygiene. And these can be found in graves of men and women. Oh, and bug bodies. I love a bug body. And they tend to have like really beautifully preserved hair and raids and oils and things, don't they? Although with the passage of time it's difficult to tell what colour their hair would have been and whether or not it has

been dyed or whether it had been just the effect of it over time. Probably one of the best preserved pieces of hair is the hair from the railway cemetery in New York, which people can go and see it's a large bun-like hair with pins in and it's red. It's from Roman times. There hasn't been much in the way of analysis done so we don't know whether it was dyed, red, or whether it was oxidised, if you like, in the earth. If that's a red hair dye that has lasted since the Roman period, and if it's lasted on the bug bodies as well, I want to know what that is, because that is impressive.

That needs to be revived. The trouble with red hair comes and goes in terms of fashion, that's the only thing that the Romans aren't actually that keen on red hair, so it possibly is oxidised, but it was more associated with sleeves. And then Elizabeth I first made red hair very popular, and then it kind of faded out again and became something that was associated with witches. I read that the Romans, and I say this is a blonde and you're a blonde,

I read that the Romans thought the blondes were quite slutty. Well, that goes back to sort of Messalina, the Empress Messalina and her adventures in brothels in Rome. They valued blonde hair, though. That's the sort of rhetoric side of it, so you've got to look a bit further than that. In actual fact, the Romans, for instance, weren't racist. and blonde hair went kind of along with that

in the sense that they were very interested in difference so a blonde-haired slave from somewhere like Germany was valued for difference and Roman women were very keen on blonde hair to the extent that one of his poems talks about his girlfriend having used so much hair dye that her hair has fallen out so she's had a blonde wig made from hair

from one of the German slaves that they've captured. I mean, there's a lot of other undertones going on in that because not only has she got a blonde wig, which she values, it's also sort of indicative of the fact that the Romans have conquered the Germans, so they've even taken the fear, that kind of thing. They're not racist, they're just equal opportunity, imperialist bastards. They'll subdue anybody, but they really like blonde hair. Yeah, well, they'll subdue people,

but they're very clever at making people clients and furthering the empire. This might be one of those just myths that you read on the internet was that red lipstick was invented by the Romans as a way for sex workers to signal that they would be willing to do oral sex. It's that complete cobblers. I'm sure I've read that somewhere on the internet.

I haven't read that, but I would imagine it was rubbish because lips were not a particularly prominent feature of beauty. The ancient Egyptians, etc., may have used a little bit. but red ochre on their lips or something like that, but really lips are not mentioned. The basic idea of beauty doesn't change from the ancient world up until the early 20th century when Coco Chanel is photographed on somebody's boat with a tan. So up until that point, pale skin, unblemished, large eyes and beautiful hair. Eyes are like stars and the complexion is like roses floating on milk, that sort of.

of idea. Oh, so no pressure then? No, well the pressure was on and that was part of the problem. Men say it that standard on women were expected to meet it, which is very difficult if you don't use any cosmetics. And even with cosmetics, especially back in the day, and would have been very difficult because these cosmetics they were using were not waterproof. So they would have been running in the rain and women were accused often of spending too much time getting on their makeup, but then they would have had to repair it quite a lot to make it effective. And it's difficult to know how effective it was and what, I mean, it's all the matter of personal taste as well. You know, was it extreme white lead, whatever, like we have envisaged Elizabeth I first or what,

but no, lips were not a feature. I always thought they were, that's really interesting. It became a feature in the 20th century with the suffragettes wearing bright lead lipstick as a sort of act of defiance and independence. But the thing about lipstick as well is that before that really all they could have mustered was a shade of red. There wasn't really anything else that they could have used to, whereas in the 20th century they were able to produce, you know, vast numbers of different colours. So yeah, off and on you get lipstick, but really it isn't part of that consistent ideal of beauty, no. If you were, let's, think of my girl Cleopatra or like loads of money, what would your beauty regime, but how would you achieve this roses floating in

milk complexion. What was available to them to be doing this? Well, Cleopatra was supposed to be asses milk. I've heard that. She must have smelled awful. That sounds like an awful idea to me. Apparently you could smell her coming up the nail because she was surrounded by perfume. So, yeah, she would be. She wasn't actually that attractive, judging by the coins that have been found with her face on it. But then again, these are just representations. We don't really know what the person actually looked like. They would have used coal on their eyes to get the pale face. White lead was very... Even back then, white lead. Yeah, white lead. Pliny describes how to prepare it by steeping lumps of lead in vinegar.

I had no idea. It was that early. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't become illegal or listed as a poison until the end of the 17th century. So up until that time, they were using quite a thing. Yeah, although there were other options, there were chalky substances, kale and the kind of thing you would put on if you had chicken box, for instance, on a child, you might put kale. Ah, yes. I just opened up a childhood memory for me there, yes, I remember that. Yeah, so, you know, you would have perhaps used something like that. There were a few safer options.

The red would have been anything from back in the ancient world, would have been the likes of dregs of wine or... That makes sense. Wine bitten lips. Red ochre, things like that. And then further on, if you take it right up to say the 18th century, 19th century, you've got in Jean Austen, you've got Mrs. Bennett

pinching her cheeks to make them red. So even basic things like that, yeah. Cinebar, again, quite a dangerous sort of thing to be using. But then other things are still used today and they're perfectly acceptable, things like Ammon oil. The ancients knew about almond oil, things like that. They used a combination of things that we would use now and very dangerous products that we would certainly go nowhere near.

Another one they would use for hair removal was quick lime. I read that, that I read an awful thing about some woman in a brothel trying to remove pubic hair with quick lime and it was just, I was reading it just going, I'm sorry, pardon? What did you do? Was that quite a widespread practice? Well, it would have been because women should be hairless into body hair. Yes. Yeah, like an eel. That is a thing.

Yeah, men would have removed hair too, but only from certain parts of their body. So under their arms. And Seneca describes a man at the baths along the road from where he lived, having his hair removed from under his arms and squealing, etc. Oh my God. It wasn't always an application of something that they put on. They used tweezers, etc. as well. And in the application of things that went beyond quick line

where things like almost sort of magical, like goal of hedgehog and things like that. I've just got an image of going to the bikini waxer and producing a hedgehog. No, no. But yeah, they should be hairless apart from the crowning glory of the hair on their head. What about the arrival of Christianity? because I'm sort of hearing what you're saying there

with the ancient Egyptians and there is some link between even religion and makeup. But how does Christianity factor into this? Did Christianity turn up and just go, no makeup for anybody? What was the church's view on this? Well, the church's expressed view was that don't try to improve on nature

and beauty is a gift from God, blah, blah, blah, that sort of stuff. However, a lot of what's expressed, again, is very much rhetoric. People like Turtallion in the early church who spend a lot of time talking about making, He's not really mainstream as far as the church is concerned. Thomas Aquinas, he...

Oh, he would have something to say, wouldn't he? Go on. What does he say? Well, he did, but he thought that women could use makeup as long as it was just for the benefit of their husband and they should try and make an effort for their husband as long as they didn't try to attempt anyone else. Of course, there was a lot of bailing as well, so I mean, they could have gone out with a veil on,

so and use makeup at home for their husbands, I suppose. But they would have been using it anyway for medical purposes. So there's no distinction really between cosmetics and medicine, even by the time of the arrival of Christianity. The idea expresses that they shouldn't try to... Don't do it. Well, don't do it, but then again, when you think of the early church, you think, well, okay, don't do it, but the church Christians were persecuted. So does the woman who doesn't wear makeup immediately mark herself out as an early Christian and therefore lay herself open to persecution. Whether that's just my idea, that that may not be the case.

I think one of my favourite descriptions of makeup in the medieval period comes from the Canterbury Tales and it's the description of Alison, the young Miller's wife, who is 18. And you can let me know if this was the beauty standard of medieval period. Alison is quite like slutty, she's a bit of a good time girl. she's described as being 18, she's got a shiny face, a high forehead, and her eyebrows are described as being really thin and arched and black as slow berries. And that always stood out to me. I thought, I wonder if she's doing something to her eyebrows.

Was that standard at the time? I think in medieval times, yes. Prior to that, they tended to have a monobrow, a brow that made in the middle. No. And the high forehead is a medieval thing. That's a sign of beauty. That's weird, isn't it? What was that?

Like, I've got a high forehead, so I'm very pleased to hear this. but, you know, I came a bit too late. What was the high forehead thing about? The high forehead sort of continued into the sort of Renaissance period. That was a thing, so your hair was plucked back to reveal the forehead. These things come in and out of fashion. They're sometimes influenced by representations of women who are important and well-known. They may not actually be accurate as to what they actually looked like.

When I think of historical makeup, the image that I draw to mind is kind of very, I suppose I'm thinking of Queen Elizabeth the first, the white face, the red hair, the red lips that she often gets seen in films. Is that an accurate depiction of her in the makeup at the time? Because that's when, for me, it starts to look quite harsh, but maybe it was like that beforehand. This isn't a natural look that she was rocking at the time. No, no, it's certainly not very subtle, is it? But then again, she had suffered from smallpox, so her skin was very marked to start with. so she concealed it.

And then, of course, she used white lead, so it became more and more corroded. So she had to use more and more makeup to cover it up. So I don't think she was much of her beauty. She did promote red hair to the extent that some of her followers, including the men, for instance, the men would dye their beards red. So the red lips, she's supposed to have been wearing

about an inch and a half of white lead by the time she died. Holy shit, that's... That's a lot of lead. Did they know by that point that if we put this on your face, things seem to be getting, or they always knew? They always knew that white lead was dangerous, but it's like cigarette smoking. We know that's dangerous, but doesn't stop us doing it.

Or Botox. Or Botox. Yeah, there's loads and loads of things that we do, knowing that they are actually dangerous. The Romans knew white lead was dangerous, but how many of them, I mean, when I say they knew, I'm not talking about the general populace, perhaps, you know, those in the scientific world or quasi-scientific world

certainly knew that White Laird was dangerous, but it wasn't actually listed as a poison until the end of the 17th century. I'll be back with Susan after this short break. I'm Tristan Hughes, host of the Ancients from History Hit, where twice a week, every week, we delve into our ancient past. I'm joined by leading experts, academics and authors who share incredible stories from our distant history,

and shine a light on some of antiquities great questions. Was the Oracle of Delphi really able to see into the future? What can be discovered from lost civilizations? And was King Arthur actually real? You can expect all of this and more from the ancients on history hit wherever you get your podcasts. Something else that I see floating around the internet, and I'm pretty sure that this is cobbler's,

but you'll be able to tell me if it is, is there is a claim that the Puritan Parliament in the 17th century they tried to make up illegal because they associated it with witchcraft. Sometimes you see that floating around and I've never properly looked into it, but I don't think that's right. Have you seen that? I think they tried, but the law was never passed. Right.

Okay, that's interesting. Because that's definitely a shift in attitude then. Even if someone was trying to get that passed, the idea that makeup and cosmetics would have caught the attention of lawmakers by this point. What is happening at the time that would make Parliament and lawmakers even suggest that they needed a law against makeup. That seems a markedly different turn of events from the Queen who was just inches of white lead and all that lot. What was going on then?

People were concerned about morals. They were also concerned about money being spent. Uh-huh. Influenced as well by the level of rhetoric that there was about, you know, anti-cosmetics, saying, you shouldn't be wearing these. influenced by religion as well and of course the Puritans so that kind of idea I would think is it about this time or that we start to get a link between makeup and vanity and silliness and that it's just you know painted women and sexual morality because that is definitely a link with makeup

like even I remember my grandma like you know when I was did terrible makeup when I was 15 and she'd like oh you look like a painted lady and it was that kind of like you've got all this makeup on, so therefore you must be quite slutty. Where does that link come from? Well, it's always been there. Do you think about Jezebel? So there's how much is too much? Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? When does it tip over? Yeah. Centuries ago, we were looking for a natural look that presented the ideal, but you weren't supposed to make it obvious. So the no-make-up makeup is very difficult. For instance, I think there are prostitutes described hanging about outside the Coliseum in Rome who their faces are plastered with makeup and their reeking of perfume. The verbs that are

used to describe are not very favourable. And I think it's also interesting that we got this idea of being plastered with makeup when you think that the materials they were using in ancient world a write-through to perhaps Shakespeare's time for sure were the same things they were using to paint walls. So, and for instance, in Shakespeare's time, material that they were using to paint, the people who painted the scenery also painted the faces of the act. Yeah, using the same stuff quite often.

That's amazing. So that idea of plastered, you know, it's a bit derogatory, but we've taken that on as being that, but then again, does it just hark back to the fact that that was what the original materials were also used for? I love that. One group of people who I know loved the no-makeup makeup, which if anyone's tried to do no-make-up makeup, it's very, very difficult to do, was the Victorians. They did not like sherry makeup.

They did not like looking rouged or made up, but their standards of beauty is so high that you would have to. to use something. What was the Victorian makeup look? If I was a Victorian woman and I wanted to go out and promenade and impress my friends, what would be a makeup routine for me to look like I just rolled out of bed looking like this? They still like the pale look. They really like the pale look. They actually like the sort of chic to look sick kind of idea, the heroin chic look. Tuberculosis was quite fashionable in a weird way, wasn't it? That looks super pale and like you were about to drop down dead. Yeah.

So a handy hint for trying to, is one of these things that you can actually ingest rather than put it on your face is to drink lemon juice, make yourself look pale. Does that work? I don't know.

I haven't tried it. No, yeah, okay, no, I'm going to try that. As much of the time, PRJ lemon juice or something like that. I don't know, but I would imagine it would have to be pure lemon juice on a consistent basis. And a blusher, they did like a bit of rouge,

so you could buy powdered sheets of paper that you sort of padded on gently. So that was how they kind of went about that. And you were beginning to get sort of products as well that you could buy and you can still make your own at home as well. And they would still have wanted to use a nice face cream to try and create that pure complexion, which would also be easier to achieve

if you didn't go outside too much either. Because in centuries past and more recently being tanned up until the beginning of the toilet. 20th century meant that you were outside working and therefore you were lower class and if not such social importance. I'm really interesting that because I've got this theory that I've always had in the back of my head, maybe you can tell me if it's nonsense, but our perceptions of beauty and what we think of as beautiful tend to be linked to two things mainly. Health, everyone wants to look healthy, like sort of sparkling bright skins and all that lot, and wealth. And you can kind

of see fashions in beauty changing with wealth. Like for example, Like you were just saying that it was very fashionable to be super pale because it meant that you didn't have to work. Now it's very fashionable to be tanned because that means that you've got enough money to go away on holiday. Is there something in that, do you think? That it's also linked to wealth. Yes, yes.

It's the ability to purchase. Maybe not so much naive because you don't tend to see what's on a lady's dressing table or whatever. But the fact that you're able to go into a post shop and spend a lot of money on makeup, nevertheless is a mark of wealth. but in the past there would have been the possession of a beautiful mirror or a container that was made of an expensive material

which was therefore had to spend something expensive inside it that was a mark of wealth and health-wise of course the pale skin the healthy complexion that the lack of wrinkles would not only mean well according to juvenile the Roman satirist then you would be thrown out by your husband if you got wrinkles, etc. If you had a pure skin and you looked healthy,

then that indicates you fertility as well. And for people of wealth, that was important, the continuation of the family line. Talk to me about makeup in the Second World War because then you start to see a shift in makeup becoming patriotic. Yes, it would look good for the war effort, if you like. Lipstick tubes look a bit like bullet case. It was make-do and men, obviously, as well, so they were using things from the cupboard,

you know, the gravy for their lines on their stockings, etc. And they kind of had to do a bit of that as well, because some of the cosmetic companies had branched off into helping the war effort as well, reducing bits and pieces for the war effort. But yeah, women were supposed to boost the men's morale by looking good. And the suffragettes used it that way, too, didn't they? I mean, you mentioned that a little bit earlier. Yeah, a bit earlier.

more of a sort of act of defiance and independence. Today the makeup industry is billions and billions and billions of pounds easily. But who was sort of like the first big producer of makeup on a mass scale? Who would you go to to buy makeup in the 20th century? Who was like the breakout brand? I would say maybe Max Factor, Makeup to the Stars. Yes. He was a sort of Russian emigree and he started off largely in the cinema.

He was making wigs for people in Westerns and stuff like that. And his makeup was then promoted by the stars at the time. And that was his sort of tagline. He was the makeup artist to the stars. Do you think that the movie industry and the fact that we can go at television, that helps shape our perceptions of cosmetics as well? Well, it set the standard. So we were all trying to look like these starlets, if you like.

But before the movies took off, the people who marketed, makeup used socialites. And courtisans. And courtisans, yes. But largely they were into people like Diana Cooper, who was the wife of the Ambassador to France and the daughter of the Duke of Rutland, I think. And she was very beautiful.

And she's on the front of the book. So that's her there. Oh, that's her. Oh, wow. She, Lady Diana Manors, Nick Cooper, as I see, when she got married. and she was well known for advertising pawns face cream. So you would look like Lady Diana if you managed to use pawns face cream

if you could afford to you to use it. Susie, you have been amazing to talk to. And my final question to you, this is a tricky one, but let's imagine that another makeup pasturian in 200 years' time looks back at 2023 about the cosmetic trends and fashions. What do you think they would say about it? our current trends and how are cosmetics being used today? Make up your own language I think really would be, so that was a tagline for one of the cosmetic companies a while back, but it is. It's about

individualism, people doing their own thing or perhaps you've got got got got got got got sort of groups. I'm actually going to speak to somebody later on today about freckles who. Freckles are in. Yeah, freckles are in, which freckles never once. wear before. So instead of having freckle remover cream, you've now got artificial freckles. So yeah, things change, but then again, the pale

and interesting is still there. But so is the tan. So it's a case if anything goes. And then, of course, you've got more permanent cosmetics, things that they actually can have done, almost like sort of tattoos or fixed eye makeup, that kind of thing. And they're always experimenting with new

things. And everybody's always interested wanting to look young. So there's a huge market for anti-aging creams there always has been. And there will be more, more inventions, more ideas.

I don't think we'll ever go back to sticking patches on our faces or using our strike or, well, I can't say too much about white lead, but I think there may be

some white lead still being used. Well, it's more to create a sort of European look. I say that like I'm shocked, but if the right TikTok had told me that this would,

to change my life entirely if I use that product. I can't promise I wouldn't go out and do it. I've seen White Lay be used or put on. I've seen somebody use it and it's actually a lot more subtle than you think. And it's got quite a sort of sheen to it. Wow. Watch this space. So, you know, our image of the sort of, you know, heavy based makeup is maybe not all that accurate. We're looking at texts. We're looking at artwork to find all this information and trying to

sort of use different genres to try and get at what the truth is or some sense of reality beyond the rhetoric. Susan, you have been amazing to talk to. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? Are you on social media? I'm on academia, because a lot of the stuff I do as academic, but I branched off into this more popular stuff because I really felt that people should know just how important makeup was. Give us the full title. It's called Common and Uncommon Sense, a Social History of Perfewan. That's a very good title. I love that. Yeah, I am on Twitter, I'm on academia, and I'm not on TikTok yet.

Don't do it, don't do it. It's just, it's a world of pain waiting for you. Oh, Susan, thank you so much for joining me today. I've had so much fun talking to you. That's okay, no worries. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you so much to Susan for coming on and sharing your research. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and subscribe. wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you want to get in touch with us, ask us to explore a subject,

or maybe you just wanted to say hi, you can email us at betwixt at historyhit.com. Join me again, Betwixt the Sheets, The History of Sex, Scandal in Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.