Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - How Incestuous Were The Habsburgs?

Episode Date: July 29, 2025

People will do crazy things to keep hold of power.The Habsburgs - one of the most powerful families in European history - were a prime example of this. To keep hold of their power, they decided they would keep their gene pool as small as possible.What were the disastrous consequences of this incest? How common was incest in royal families? And how did it all end for this dynasty, which included Charles II of Spain and Marie Antoinette?Helping Kate get to know them is historian, Associate Professor in History at Northeastern University London and descendent of the Habsburgs(!), Estelle Paranque.This episode was edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.Please vote for us for Listeners' Choice at the British Podcast Awards! Follow this link, and don’t forget to confirm the email. Thank you!Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. You are listening to Bertwitster Sheets. And for those of you that don't know, for any newbies that have just wandered in, this is quite a naughty podcast.

Well, we don't mean it to be naughty, but we are looking at the history of naughty things. So we do stray into the occasionally rude. And frankly, that's why most of you are here anyway. But I do have to tell you, this is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things an adult-of-way covering arranged not subjects to be an adult too

and I have to tell you that to cover our asses in case anyone keeps listening and happens to get offended. Have I covered everything? Are we all good to go? All right, let's do it. Mirror at mirror on the wall, who's the fairest of them all? As you gaze upon yourself in the morning, you can't help but see the generational traits passed on by your parents and your grandparents.

You have your father's eyes, your mother's smile, your grandparents' hair. No, that can't be right. But spare a thought for Charles II of Spain, who was no lucker. And the reason for that was because the legacy being passed on by his parents was not so much from a family tree as a family shrub, I think that's fair to say. Charles was the poster boy for royal incest. Not the most enviable of legacies, which is slightly ironic because he never had any legion. legacy of his own, he was so inbred that he was infertile. He was so warped by generations of

incest that he actually gained the nickname the Bewitched, because people thought his protruding jaw and large tongue, amongst his other less desirable traits, were the result of a curse? What were the beliefs and attitudes around incest in the 16th century? Why did they keep doing it? And could anything have been done to help Charles? Stick around and we will find out more. What do you look for a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning it up and pushing the funny.

Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, I'm beautiful done. Goodness has nothing to do with it, dearie. Hello, and welcome back to Petricks the sheet of Sex Scandal and Society with me, Kate Lister. The central question of today's episode is, How incestuous were the Habsburgs? But another question you might be asking yourself is, well, who the hell were they? And that's a fair one too.

And here to answer both those questions is historian Estelle Peronk, who's going to help us get to know this long-running royal dynasty a little bit better and find out why they couldn't stop marrying each other. But before we delve into that, I have to ask you once more, just once more, if you would cast a vote for us at the Listener's Choice Awards, and you can do this in the link in our show notes. It really would help us out. Right. Now that's on the way. More incest. Here we go.

Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only a stealth prank. How are you doing? I'm very good and super excited to be with you today, Kate. It's so exciting. Oh, thank you so much. This is going to be lots and lots of fun this one as well as absolutely horrifying. Yes. Because we're talking about the Hapsburgs. And I normally start by saying, how did you get into this research, but I've got a note here saying that you're related to the Habsburgs. Is that right? Yes.

Actually, it's a funny story. So I honestly, not sure I should, you know, talk about this so much because like when we're going to talk about the Habsburg, it's going to be crazy. But basically, my dad loves genealogy. It's so funny because he didn't want me to become a historian, really. And now he's, you know, he's retired. And I think like he's becoming the new historian of the family. and it's done all the genealogy, you know, from our side of the family, the parox, and then from my mom's side.

And on my mom's side, we realized that we were actually distance of the aspects. But I promise you, we don't do what they did, right? Like, which we were going to discuss, Kate. Yeah, we'll preface it by saying that. Very distantly related. Look, look, but my chin is very small. She has a beautiful chin, everybody, I can absolutely confirm. I've never had this compliment before, Kate, you're the best.

So there'll be people listening to this, going, I don't understand what the issue is. Explain to us who the Habsburgs were and then maybe your reason for going, we don't do that anymore, we'll become a little bit clearer for everyone. Yes, I think let's go back to the origins, right, who they were. So in the 13th century or even before that, even the 10th century, they're kind of a noble family that leave in the lens where now it's Switzerland. Obviously, at the time it was not called Switzerland. They were a noble family, like any other noble family, I would say.

But as any noble family, you have ambitions. And you always end up on a generation that is massively ambitious. And it's what happened around 1270s, where you had Rodolf the first. So he's the first of the Apsburg, really, you know, like what we know about the Apsburg. And that night, I think it's also very interesting. became the newly elected king of Germany. An elected king? Exactly.

And I think it's such a surprise for so many people that they were elected kings in the medieval and early modern period. It's mostly true also for Poland and Lithuania, where they were like elected the kings, actually a French prince, you know, in 16th century became elected Polish king. But here it's what happened. But what happened? Obviously, elected, do you call it elected?

Like, I mean, it's not an election like, you know, when people have their choices. not how it works. Yeah, okay. Yeah. You know, like, it's not a person's not like, oh, we like this guy. No, no, no. It's more or less, you know, like the noble family is agreeing on someone. But at the same time, it was a title that was a bit weird. It was contested by others. So he ended up going to war with others. But what's so interesting is that little by little and like any big, you know, family, any noble family or even royal family is going to expand his territory. Yeah. And we end up, so let's move forward. Like, you know, we're under 13th century and they grow. You know, they're just a more and more important family.

And I think what people don't realize is these, we call it like this German territories, right? And so there's Vienna, Switzerland, you know. So, Vienna, Austria. But Vienna becomes a very important, very important city, especially, you know, when there's going to be like with the Ottoman empires, like, you know, fights and stuff. But all these story stories are going to become more and more important. And then there's obviously the Holy Roman Empire. And the Abbs book played the cards well. Again, to become a Holy Roman emperor, you have to be elected.

Again, not by the people. Interesting. Not by the people. Not by women and not by the commoners. Oh my God. Who cares about them, right? Who are they? So the rose to power.

What's actually a bit sad is where we're going to get while we talked about my chin is that the evolution of their history or their story in many ways, you know, different stories, is that at some point they're going to make an alliance with Spain. And that's, that, that's going to become the biggest problem when you really look at it, when you really look at the genealogy of things. So one of them is going to, he's briefly called Philip the first, but he's a Philip the handsome. Honestly, I saw some portrait. I don't know. Not that handsome, maybe, but the handsome for the time. Oh, come on, Keith. You know what people say maybe other time I'm like

ugly is ugly A cat is a cat handsome is handsome all right But someone must have thought he was Or was it ironic Was it like an ironic name of No I think maybe the others were Kind of they were really ugly

Yes maybe that's well Anyway he was cool Philip the handsome And he's going to marry Juana of Aragon and Castile The daughter of Ferdinand of Oregon And Isabel of Castile the sister of Catherine of Varegan, first queen, you know, of Henry the 8th.

And Juana of Castile is going to be called Joanna the Mad. Her story is very complicated. And that's when the Alpsburg branch starts, really, like the Spanish one, you know. And it's with Charles. Charles. Charles V is going to become holy Roman emperor. So he's going to, like, you know,

be the descendant of all the Alpsburg in Germany. But now he's also. the king of Spain. Okay. And it's very important here because here it becomes a real empire. I want to insist on something. Spain and 16th century is the strongest power of Europe. Okay, of Europe, not of the world.

You know, I know people think Europe is the world. But it is the most powerful country, more powerful than France, sorry for France, but, and way more powerful than England. I mean, England is just, you know, fighting. You know, who could be on the throne? Are you a pretender? Are you this lost prince of England? You know, like, they're like, da-da-da-da-da.

No one bloody cares. Yeah. No one. Spain is where it's at. Yes. And, you know, they do the discovery of the new world. But then there are like two massive territories. You have all the German countries that we've discussed, you know, with Austria, Hungary,

like all of these big territories. And now you have Spain. And Charles becomes both, holy Roman emperor, you know, that is elected. But really. What is that, by the way, the Holy Roman Emperor? Because you've got kings and then you've got the Holy Roman. What is the Holy Roman Emperor? Basically, it's always come with the Crusades and it comes with trying to have a lend,

that defends Europe and that is Holly and that, you know, we always talk about, I'm laughing about it because I find it funny, but please don't judge me for that. But you know the fall of the Roman Empire? Yes. It comes from all of it. It's like a trying to resurrect kind of. Oh, okay. But at the same time, it's where more complicated than that because you have so many territories, so many Dutches, so many people with noble families who could claim territories.

And that's why we have the Italian wars in the first half of the 16th century. It's so highly complicated because France has a claim, but Spain has a claim. You know, like so many people have claims through their, you know, ancestors. And it's also because there was the collapse of the Roman Empire and trying somehow to revive it. And then with the Crusades, it became something that really was important for the people, but also to justify. Okay. Did the Holy Roman Emperor hang out with the Pope? Was that sort of their job?

That's where it's also interesting. It should have been, but also, you know, let's not forget that Charles V actually sacked Rome in 1527. Oh, this is complicated, isn't it? It always is when there's power and money, isn't it? You know, like when you think about Tudor's world, I love when people are like, I'd so complicated now. Like, babe. I mean, when has it not been complicated? Right.

Yeah, okay. It's been always kind of crazy. So we've got kings and we've got popes and we've got this Holy Roman emperor who's kind of running around without an empire for now. Yeah, but for now Charles, Charles V is both. He's the king of Spain and he's the Holy Roman. I thought I understood that for a second. He's so strong, Kate.

Okay. You know that's, he created lots of problems for the English. You know, like because he's sack. Rome in 1527. He's in total control of the Pope. That's why the Pope don't give an annulment to Henry the Heath. That's why Henry the If is going to think about, you know what? So did it.

I'm going to do what I want. And that's really all because, I'm sorry, I'm going to blame Charles for this, but all because of Charles, all because of an Habsburg, right? Wow. And then it becomes crazy. Let's go back to the chin and stuff because I think people need to understand. It becomes crazy, Kate, when you really, really think about it. Because Charles is going to want to.

really secure his power, but not just for him. Like, you know, all these men that have a crazy idea. It's the same with Henry the East France is the first of France. Crazy idea about their legacy. Yeah. About their dynasty. And he has a son and he has a daughter. He's going to make his daughter marry his brother. Oh, hang on. Hang on. His daughter's going to marry his brother. So that's uncle and niece marrying together. Yeah. That doesn't sound good. They always do this to the point where Ferdinand. So Ferdinand is the brother of Charles. And Charles, at his death, is going to split his empire.

He's going to give the Holy Roman Empire to his brother, Ferdinand. And he's going to give his country, you know, Spain to his son, Philip the second of Spain, you know, the husband of Mary the First of England at first. Yes, yes. That's why it becomes very interesting, is that Ferdinand has going to have three children. Two of them are actually going to marry one another, so brother and sister. No, just, we have to have some standards around here, people. There's no standards. Absolutely no standards. Brothers and sisters. Full brothers and sisters.

Yeah, and he's going to marry his niece. Shit. It doesn't end there. That's what we're going to talk about the chain. This has gone very Targaryen, hasn't it? This is... It's completely Targaryen, though the Targians are very good-looking, and I don't know how that happened. That's a good point. That's fiction. That's a good loophole we've picked up on there.

Is there too good-looking to have been that? inbred, quite frankly. Like, honestly, the genealogy, honestly, I invite all the listeners here to go and Google the genealogy of the Abbsburg type of Spain as well. You'll see how crazy you like, so it's niece and uncles, his brother and sister, as cousins. Yeah, that's the closest one. That's the craziest one. We'll allow a cousin to marry a cousin in royal families.

They're always married cousins. And we're going to go to this. We're going to go to every royal families because I think that right now, there are the example where they took it too far. So they took this kind of like keeping the power. Yeah. You know, keeping the power within the family, they got the memo a bit too far, you know. Yeah. They really went with that. And when you look, it's always niece, uncle, cousins. And we end up in the 17th century with Charles II who has this massive, massive chin. How massive? Shoot. It's like so prominent. To be if I say it's funny, but I feel bad for the guy, you know, like, it's not really

his fault, like, you know, that his family did that, right? Like, but to a point where a British envoy came to the court, Spanish court, and reported back, I think, in a way to make fun, but also maybe, you know, as a shock, he literally wrote Kate, that the guy can't, you know, eat all food, like he can't, because his bottom Joe, like, the role of the Steve can't touch. The top one. So he can't, he can't chew. You know, in a way, I want to say that's the least of his problem because he had lots and lots of illnesses, smallpox, measles.

He literally caught everything. He's also like, we believe that he had depression. No doubt. I mean, if you can't chew, I mean, like. Fair. I'd be depressed too. And he couldn't have, he didn't have any children. He couldn't.

I mean, I wasn't there. But, you know, he was probably the one who had a problem, right? I'll be back with Estelle after this short break. Looking at a picture of him, and I suppose we have to remember that whoever painted that was being paid a lot of money to make this look as good as it possibly could have looked. When you say that, it's even worse, Kate. They would have been, make this look as good as you possibly can,

and it's still bad. He doesn't look good. It's a very oddly shaped head that that fella has got. And a lot of his family, like, so his ancestors, right, we call it the Abbs book Joe, right? Like, it's like, it's very prominent. It was never as bad as that. So he was like the worst.

He became like the emblem of like, inbreeding Ab's the book family. He's the post by his name. He is. And it's kind of like, in a way, it's very sad because when you really look at his life, such poor health, mental health, you know, down the toilet as well.

See, just like he almost had nothing going on for it. I don't even, you know, Kate, you know, we make fun of kings and queen and stuff, and rightly so because there had lots of powers and wealth and why not. But at the same time, let's not forget that there's a human being here. Yeah. Who must have suffered a great deal. Now, what I love as well is that on the top of research right now, and there's a lot of great stories, especially in Spain, researching Carlos the Seconds reign,

and they're trying to give, like, a bit more credit. Well, that's nice. Yeah, because apparently there's also lots of propaganda, you know, you're trying to really make him as ridiculous as possible. Yeah, because a lot of the stuff that I've read about him doesn't, like, it sounds really bad because I was just about to ask you like, all right, he's got a big jar and he's not very well, but as a person, what was he like? And a lot of the stuff I've read is, I think I read that, like, he liked to sit in a bucket

and spin round in circles. Yeah, I think all of these are like a way of undermining completely his reign and importance. But I think that some researchers I've actually described that. actually he was not that useless. So it is true that he was extremely, like he was poorly and was ill, but he was not just that stupid. And I think it all comes from lots of rumours and gossips around him and trying to make him as ridiculous as possible.

Also, I think when you really think about it, because of the way he looked, it's very easy to make him a target. You know, we don't think about that, but like, as you said, when you look at a portrait, he really, I mean, so bad to say that. He looks awful. He really looks dreadful. Like, we're in real Fuglyville stuff here. There's no saving it.

You don't. I'm sorry. But that must have been a really defining feature for this guy, though. Because there's no escape in it. We can be as polite as we want to be. And, you know, like, let's be nice and let's not judge people. But, like, he looks weird. And he can't chew.

Try to talk that way, Kate. Try to put you it forward. It's very hard to pronounce words. So even if you're not, like, that mentally unstable and, you know, it would have been very hard for him to communicate. It must have been very difficult. So he can't eat. He can't really communicate.

I do feel quite sorry for him. I do. Honestly, I do because there's a part of like of pleasure when you chew. Like, you know, like the textures. All of this is never really experienced. Yeah. Lots of soups. Yes.

Yeah. That was my producer's joke. Sorry, Stu. I'm stealing. I'm stealing your jokes. I think it's a good one. But, you know, it's what the British envoy said. It was just gobbling things up, really. Like, today, we still struggle with how people look. I'm being very nasty and I shouldn't be. But, like, we still judge people a lot by what they look like. And we're kind of working on it and we're trying not to do it. But back at this point when Charles II is walking around having his soup, because they had a much more spiritual understanding of physical appearance. So to them, they would have been, if somebody is physically,

unappealing. They would have equated that with a moral failing. Would that be about right? I mean, he is, he is the king. So, you know, like, shut up. He's the king. But there is a judgment. Also, it's not just that. It's like what we discussed, like, very hard to communicate, very hard to be eloquent, right? So then you start judging his mental ability. What I mean by that is, like, it's intelligence. And as I said, that's well, like some scholars in Spain. It's mostly in Spain that they're doing the work, trying to really re-establish him as not this just bad king or just this mad king. And they're trying to, I mean, I'm not on top of the research case, but like, I can see your eyes like, oh my God, I want to know more about this.

I do. But I think they're trying to go beyond the gossips and the rumors and trying to look at what actually happened, what he did. Because, you know, his death is going to trigger the Spanish war of succession, where France is going to fight very hard. you know. Also like France like you know with the 14th is married to an Apsburg married to Reserve Spain. It's her brother Carlos. So like it's very

interesting to see how all rural houses and it's where I think I wanted also to go to because we're talking here about the Apsburg when we end up with Carlos who's like the one who can't have children anymore the one who has the most massive draw but also the one who is very ill He is very ill.

That's in the medical records. I don't think like there's anything that we can really pretend that it didn't happen. Let's not forget. So these abs took it too far. Did they work it out that that's what was causing these defects at the time? I know genealogy is a way off. I wonder, because I don't think they did it for two centuries. Yeah, they didn't figure that out, did they?

150 years. So I don't think they, because even Charles I squirt this kind of prominent, not as bad. No, you know, even Philip the second, when you look Philip the second, Mary the first. Yeah, but you don't think, I mean, you, yeah, fine, it's, you know, it's okay. But it's when they kept doing, like when you really look at their genealogy, usually you're supposed to have a set of four, eight, grandparents, like, you know, then you have 60, you know, it goes eight, 16, they don't have that. It's just all, they share the same grandparents, they have like, same aunts, like, it becomes

crazy. someone's niece is someone's wife and then someone's mother and the aunt of someone else that was she that she's actually also a cousin it's when you end up with Carlos right it's like boom you because you've done all of this no i'm not trying to defend the absberg but am i it looks like i'm going to others did that as like not as bad but you know the role families of europe did marry one another they were cousins sometimes but it was never as such repetition. They're saying that as well.

When you look at Victoria and, you know, there were some fears that, and I think at that point, because of what happened with Habsburg and Carlos, they were kind of aware of being careful of not marrying too much. Because all the rogue families, you know, I love it when you're like, oh, the British royal family, but the British

Role family is also Spanish, is also French, is also, you know. And same with the others, right? Austrian family is also like British, you know. So they all marry one another because it's the elites, right? Right? Is it how you keep a power? It's kind of a small dating pool as well.

If you say, look, we can only marry other royals, that you're not allowed to marry anyone who isn't a royal, then you've immediately limited it to, right, well, then it's just the family then, isn't it? That's it. That's the only people. It's such a stupid plan. But that's where you, sometimes you do have noble families. Let's not forget, like, you know, there are some big duchies,

like, you know, the Duchy of Aquiton, you know, with Ellen of Aquitin being such a big prize for everyone. everyone, but also herself being related somehow to some of these men. So I think it's kind of, as I said, the Absook took the memo too far. Like, they took it further than anyone else really that I've heard about, apart from maybe the Egyptian royal family, like brothers and sisters. That's, it's pretty intense that, isn't it? It is pretty intense. It didn't happen all that. Obviously, like, they tried to avoid that, but like, nieces and uncle, you know when, when everyone was shocked, I don't know, like, you watch Game of Thrones, right? Kate.

Yeah, I'm not, yeah. You know, when I, oh, my God, DeNaris is, you know, the aunt of John Snow. Oh, my God, oh, my God. I saw, what do you mean? It's so bad. Like, it's nothing. It's a slow Tuesday for the Habsburgs, that. That's just, that's just normal.

Like, they should definitely marry and concur the world. Like, what are you talking about? It would be weird if they didn't do it, quite frankly. And with the House of Dragon, I don't know if you watched that. So, you know, it's the prequel to Game of Thrones. But, like, you have also the queen is marrying. her uncle as well, to keep the target in blood, right? And when they don't, which is funny, because you know, when he didn't and married like the king, her father, just married someone who was outside

of the family. And then somehow her kids are weird. That makes no sense, does it? Like, her kids doesn't seem to be completely stable. I just thought like it's, it's funny how fiction can change rules easily. I think so. It's amazing that when we were all watching Game of Thrones, when we first started that show and we were like oh my god this is awful like brothers and sisters aunts and uncles like jamie and sersie how awful but then like really quickly within a few episodes we're all it's a shame they're not getting together anymore and like all like normal parameters have just gone out the window like oh no john so i think you should shag your auntie it's so sad that you can't literally you're like oh my god no why they're related and then you don't care you like yeah

and then you don't care anymore so i guess maybe maybe that's what was happening back in the day is it was just meh whatever yeah i think in the end what was more important kate for them was to retain the power you have to understand here that we're talking about a huge empire that it meant that you know even though we call it elected it was by people that were going to elect the same family so as long as they kept it together then that's the best thing right they felt they felt extremely safe and they felt as well like that they were in control of the other royal houses and in many ways they were because obviously France and England were not

doing that. They were not marrying one another just to keep power. And so it was a way for the Abbsburg to never share. I think they feared that someone would say, oh but you know, imagine like they married an English princess instead of a cousin or

their sister or whatever. And then she has a male heir. That male could contest the uncle and it would be English. And so then it would be England who becomes more powerful. So I think here it's really about, there's an obsession with his dynasty about power. It's far better to have somebody that can't eat food or talk properly than risk in English prince coming over.

I'll be back with Estelle after this short break. Carlos didn't have any kids at all. No, no. I mean, again, I wasn't there. But there are rumours that he couldn't get it up. Oh. And there's a rumor. Okay, Kate, you're going to love this.

You're going to love this. I think he, there's a report that's, said he had only one testicle. This is the son of Carlos, is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the one with the poster guy. The huge. Yeah. He didn't have testicles.

He has a jaw so big that he can't eat. Just one testicle instead of two. This isn't good, is it? To this point, I don't even know if he, I don't know. I wasn't there. Did he try? I don't know. I mean, I imagine that some effort would have been put into it.

The amount of concern that these people have about preserving dynasty, they're not going to let him with his one testicle get away with this. I assume somebody would have tried to help this lad do what he was supposed to do. Well, it failed. It failed. No children. Massifil. But, but, but, but massive failure. You know, I say massive failure. So it's the end of his. There's a war of succession. But it doesn't, the absolute don't end there. But what ends, though, is this very strong in breeding, you know, so for example, I always get the comment about Marie Antoinette being a Habsburg, right? I was just about to ask you about her.

Maria Teresa, right? Her mother. But here we're talking about the 18th century. So, you know, like when Carlos dies in 1700, that's the end of all these crazy. Like the others, you know, there are some brunches. And it's probably where I come from, guys. Look at my little chin. She has a lovely chin. And she can talk properly as well.

You've heard her for yourself. There's no incest going on here. My grandparents were cousins. And whenever I say that on the show, My mum tells me to point out that it wasn't her family that did that. It was on my dad's side. Yes, not you from my family. Not, it wasn't my family that did that. Thank you very much. But it still happens, don't it?

But it was accepted. I mean, the first cousin is hot. I mean, I think now it's really frowned upon. Like, you're like, you should not. But second cousin and stuff, of course there are some that, you know, managed to do that. But I think, so no, you don't even realize you're related, you know, because it's cousins, but from different branches. God, yeah, sometimes they might not even realize properly how related they are. No, but it's not that, then it's not that bad, is it? We're not talking here about, you know, brother and sister, first cousins or niece and uncle, right? Like, niece and uncle is very linked as well.

That's very weird that one. So, you know, Maria Theresa and Marie Antoinette, there are Habsburg, but they are from the next there in the 1700, 800, like, well, 1700. And it's later on. and they no longer have. You know, some people love making fun of Marie Antoine and say, oh, but look at her chin a bit. But honestly, you're just being a proud here because that's not true. Like, I'm sorry, she's beautiful.

Did she have a completely not, did she have any health issues that you might have said with the result of imbreeding or she got away with it? Not that I'm aware of, no. Also, I don't think there's, as I said, I think it ends with Carlos, really. And then obviously the Abbsburg are going to last longer in the 18th century, 19th century,

and the real end is like for any, not any, but lots of raw families, if you're having a revolution like in France. You know what, like, you know, the Industrial Revolution, 1850, and then the war, and it's really when there's a shift of everything changing and where, you know, these families no longer have grounds for power. So is there still a Habsburg dynasty today? Is it just you? Just carrying on? I mean, if it was me, like, there's a lot of castles that I want, Kate.

I don't... I'm greedy. We'll find an army. We'll find an army and we'll go and get your ancestral lands back immediately. You know what? It's so funny because on my dad's side, we actually related to the British royal family.

And my dad was like, go there. And I asked them to have some rooms in Buckingham Palace. And I was like, I'm sure they would love to give me one room in Buckingham Palace just because I was related to Eleanor of Provence, you know, who was Queen of England in the medieval ages. So where are the Habsburgs today then? Is there still a Habsburg?

Denise, are they still marrying, are they still in control of anything? I wouldn't say so. But I think what we forget is that obviously, you know, with all the changes, it's the same with the French royal family. You know, there are some people that are like direct descendant of Rue de 16th. And if we decided to restore the monarchy, I'm sure we could find someone. So now I'm wondering that maybe if they were trying to restore the Absborg, obviously, and there's a Spanish royal family that is still survived, right?

So they're descendants of them as well. Yes. Yeah, that's true. But I guess there's a problem here, like with the German countries and stuff, the world has changed so much, right? The territory, like now they're countries, their sovereign countries, and what land would be. So I would say that obviously the Spanish monarchy is that, like,

that still exist and still in power. And maybe I should ask them for a room in their palace. I'd support you. I think that's a good idea. So what can we learn from, from, from the Habsburgs. Because they have kind of gone down in history as this like absolutely mad bunch of crazy people who kept marrying everybody at a family get together. Like not a good idea. I was doing some research around imbreeding. And I'm very careful what I say because I don't

want anyone to think this is a good idea. But like to really get genetic defects, it has to be multiple like inbreeding at very close relations. So marrying your cousin or your second cousin, you're probably probably going to be all right as long as those kids. kids don't also marry their. Yeah. But they were too close. And so they've just become this... But they kept marrying also their cousins, right?

It's not just one generation that was a problem. Again. They kept doing it. And they kept doing it for 150 years. 150 years. Kate, I'm going to say something that I think is going to scare you a little. Okay, go on. I'm sorry.

Please don't hate me. Think about it. Like, you're saying that, you know, the Abseburg is like this crazy, you know, family, like inbreeding family, right? At the same time, it's the most powerful one. God, that is scary. They are calling the shots. They are the ones like they go to war.

I mean, we always make fun, you know, of Spain and, you know, that the English, and I love that. You know, that Elizabeth first won against Spain and Philip II. At the same, he came back in 1593. There was constant wars. We're talking here about Spain conquered, you know, the Americas. Yeah. North America, but Central America, South America. All of this is the abberg.

So for people who are. completely just in, like, I mean, it worked for a long time. And what's very interesting also, I think, and I just want to say that because I do lots of women history. Women are very important in the Abbsburg. They're also calling the shots. Some of them are governors, like, in their own rights of some lands and stuff. So I think there's, in any ways, it's weird. I think because it's then their own family. There's lots of respect as well for women's rural, you know, that you don't necessarily have with, you know, like, if, you're, you know, like, if you look at Henry Euth and how much he respected his wife.

Yeah. Do you see it? So I think that's interesting to see it that way as well. So generational inbreeding can lead to birth defects, but also global colonisation in some cases. That's the lesson. Great. I'm not sure that's going to be a publishable episode.

As a final question, have they left us any legacy beyond looking at them going, yeah, don't marry your uncle. That's a great idea. in a sense of dynasty or country or military, if they left us anything? Spain. Spain? Yeah, they left us Spain. That's not bad, is it?

The Abbsburg are going to, obviously, there's the massive fall with Carlos, so then, you know, the upbringing is going to stop kind of thing. On that level, but they did continue. They kept being a very important country, European country, and even global country. Like, let's face it, we're talking again about, as you said, you know, global empires. Unfortunately, the Europeans did a lot of that, and Spain is one of them. No, it's all bad. Yeah, I'm sure people who disagree with you on that.

Asda, you've been so much fun to talk to. I knew you would be. And if people want to know more about you and your work, and if they want to send you their thoughts on this episode, where can they find you? They can find, mostly on Instagram nowadays, because I can't stand any other platforms at the minute. Speaking of dynasties, yep.

Exactly. Otherwise, I work mostly on European monarchies, diplomatic relations, and I've published distinctively on Elizabeth I First and Berlin, but also with their relations with Europe, which I know so much about. Brilliant. Thank you so much for joining us.

You've been an absolute hoot. Thank you, Kate. Thank you for listening, and thank you so much to Estelle for joining us. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject, or maybe you just wanted to say hello,

you can email us at betwixt at historyhit.com. Coming up, we've got episodes on Cleopatra in our royal sex series and an episode about who were the Vessel Virgins, all coming your way. This podcast was edited by Tom Delaghy and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again, Betwixte Sheets, History of Sex Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit.

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