Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - How to Get Cancelled in the Tudor Court

Episode Date: May 22, 2026

Who was Lettice Knollys? And why was she expelled from Elizabeth I's court?Kate is joined by Estelle Paranque in this episode to find out how a man came between loving cousins, and explore whether getting with your friend's crush has EVER been acceptable.This episode was edited by Hannah Feodorov. The producer was Sophie Gee. The senior producer was Freddy Chick.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, my lovely bed twixters. It's me, Kate Lister. Welcome back once again to Bertwixter Sheets. Hello, fancy seeing you round here. Do come in and take a seat. But before we go any further, I do have to tell you,

once again, and from now, until the end of time, this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults, about adult, things, and an adult you wake up and a wager of the same. Right, on with the show. There are so many unwritten rules in life. Don't play TikToks loud out in public. a big one. Face outwards in a lift. Don't scroll through photos when someone passes you their phone,

ever. And don't shag your mate's siblings. Just don't do that. It's weird. Because if you do, it can all get very, very messy indeed. Come back to betwixta sheets, the history of sex scandal and society with me, Kate Lister. Getting on the wrong side of the Tudors is famously a bad idea. It will make you considerably shorter if nothing else. But in this episode, we are meeting somebody who managed to avoid that fate somehow, and instead was banished forever by none other than Queen Elizabeth I'm first. And to introduce us to this Tudor Scaliwag, Lettis Nolice, I'm joined by the wonderful Estelle Perank,

who, as you will hear, is not Lettuce's biggest fan. Right, get your ruffs on and let's do it. Well, hello and well. Welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. Welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Estelle Peron. How are you doing, lovely? Thank you for having me again. I think for today's topic, I'm really hyped up. It's going to be spicy.

Oh, that's great because this isn't a name I know very much about. It's like, is the type of people I just, I just can't stand. The audience needs to understand why. And then we're going to get into it and we're going to talk about her. But yeah, I really can't stand her. You can't. Well, this is great because. you can now, you can basically indoctrinate me into why I should hate this person as well.

So what's her name? Let's give her a full name first of all. Yeah, so we're talking here about Lettis Nolis. And first of all, I think I'm going to give you a bit of background because the background is actually very important to why then I do not like her. It's a good name though, Lettis Nolus. I don't know. I feel like salads. Sorry. Okay. I told you, I can't stick her.

You really can't? Can you? You really hate it. Right, fuck. Yeah, okay. Let's go. Stupid salad named bitch. It's how I feel.

It's been 600 years. Right, go. It's crazy. Yeah, it is insane because she's dead and so. But you're going to understand. So, first of all, who is she? She's someone very important, actually, at Elizabeth's the first court. She's born in 1543.

She is 10 years younger than Elizabeth. That's important for the story. And she's a cousin to Elizabeth. Let me take you through the family tree. Okay. She's the daughter of Catherine Kerry. And Kathleen Kerry is the daughter of Mary Boland. Right.

She's a Boland. She's from the Boland side. Her father is Frances Nolis. So there's an alliance of families and stuff. And it is true that, you know, when people say that Elizabeth, that's another thing that really annoys me, when they say, you know, like she was two and seven miles. didn't really realize what's going on. And, you know, children don't really remember much.

I really disagree with it. I think we remember, there's more research on this. It's just we can't access memories the same way we do at a certain age because our brain is fully developed. So I think that the brain is not entirely developed, but I think you realize when there's something happening. I think, and when people are like, oh, but she was not seeing her mother and, you know, that often anyway, actually, you know, it's a question of like,

Anne Boleyn was extremely involved in Elizabeth, the first. So you're talking about Elizabeth here. Yeah, I'm talking about Elizabeth because I think here you need to understand the relationship between Elizabeth and the Bolins. And I think a huge part of how she's going to nurture her Boland family comes from the fact that she did understand what was going that she lost a huge part of her by losing her mother. And I think it's bullshit when we said, oh, but she was two years and seven months. So she didn't remember she. I think it's all bullshit. I think there's something very intimate but also very deep that happened to her. And I think

that's also why she loved the Bolins and her Bolins family so much. And she loved Catherine Kerry. And she loved the salad that just not this. And so, and what I mean by that is, I'm sorry, is that she really favours the bullet, like the carries, the bullets, the ballets, that side of her family. So, And I think it's very important to understand that because Letis knowledge, born in 1543, the Bullens, obviously, like, the family is not, you know, I mean, Mary Bullen has lost everyone. We had Jan before to tell us that, well, tells about her, but particularly that you're not sold on the idea that she did have an affair with Henry VIII. And we're going to go into that as well, like, I think we're going to go into the rumors

and how it impacts as well, like Elizabeth later on. I think what's very interesting that Catherine Kerry is going to, you know, is going to be close to Elizabeth, that Elizabeth is, but that family, is also struggling when Elizabeth is not queen. Obviously. It's not a very easy time for them. It's not a good time to be a Berlin, is it, in that particular aftermath? There's a stain. And there's a stain in Elizabeth. Like, let's not forget that as well, you know, how she's going to have to fight for legitimacy. But here, what I think what's very interesting is how much she's going to love her Berlin family, so the carries, how she's going to elevate all of them,

how she's going to favor them. And it means that when she becomes queen, they become into favors, the women of the family enter her service. And it is a huge privilege, right? It is a huge... And what it means, Kate, and we're going to go to that, it means that you have access to the queen,

but not only that, I think Elizabeth truly love these women. These women are only link... To her mum. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes complete sense. Then we're going to discuss what happens.

I want you to understand that bond. I want you to understand. Put yourself in the shoes of Elizabeth I first. You lost your mother, but you have an aunt that is going to have a family. And that family is going to become important to you. Yeah. And you're going to favor them and you're going to be close to them. You're going to rise them at court.

You're going to really, really make them important. And lettuce is 10 years younger and without the care is, without Elizabeth. They are bloody no one. All right. Let's put very clear. Okay. And Lettis is this kind of very much younger, that's 10 years apart, but a younger sister. And there's this affection for this young woman in her family.

There's like, so she really liked Catherine Kerry. So she really likes Lettis. And these women are going to serve her. They're going to be at her court. And they're going to discuss things. They're going to talk. And I really believe that, you know, we have, we are limited with what we have. we have, especially in the 16th Street,

what we have in the archives, right? But I think it doesn't mean that we should forget about what would have happened. Like what I mean here, we can make, you know, educational speculation here and like thinking, well, you can imagine that she would have been more herself

with these ladies than with other people because these ladies were blood, these ladies were family. So they had an access to her that was very, very close and very, very strong. and she loved them, all right? And so we're going to get to why I can't stand the salad. See, I believe you completely, and I agree with that,

is that the idea that Elizabeth wouldn't have suffered any trauma from the execution of her mother, I think that's just crazy. That just, like, she had to grow up, and she had a legitimacy taken away, and she was called a bastard, and she had to. And then as soon as your queen, of course you're going to, like, try and expunge some of that,

try and give your mum some justice. And I guess a way to do that is to raise her family up and to show an allegiance with that family. Absolutely. And also, you know, like I think we also need to stop thinking that young children, you can do anything to them and they don't remember. Yeah. I think that's wrong.

And I also think that though, yes, they cannot, you know, if I asked my son who's four and a half, what we did one for his first birthday, they probably won't remember. We went to the pub. But what I'm saying is like That's not the type of question I think that not understanding You know it's not just about calling a bastard

Everything that that must have been shocking And you know her household being taken away from her But it's also the fact that I think that she missed a mother That yes she was not living with her like You know she had her own household She lived in her house field She was raised somewhere else But her mother was going and seeing her

Buying her things Buying her dresses You know dotting on her So I think she would have unknown. And I think the people, you know, Lady Bryant who was looking after her, would have told her about her how much she loved her. And so I think it's very important because, you know, when people are like, what do we know how Elizabeth remembered her mother? Well, just look at how she treated the bullens. It's a good way to see how she remembered and loved her mother. Because

if she really didn't, like if it had no impact, why would have taken the risk to raise names associated with treason, incest, infidelity. Do you see what you mean? I see exactly what you mean. And for me, and for me, that makes what comes next so disgusting. And that is why personally, I really cannot stand. Let us know this. Now, let's go back to Elizabeth because it's all linked to her.

So Elizabeth is queen. She's 25. We know that, you know, she's unmarried. We know that it creates lots of problems. And we also know that around that time, 1558, there are questions about the fact that she's very close to someone called Robert Dudley. I have heard that. Yeah, you heard that.

And there's this kind of relationship by his married to Amy Robsett. Amy Robsett is going to die in weird conditions. So then it's going to... But there is definitely this relationship. It would be a lie here if we were telling ourselves there's absolutely nothing going on. And not only would it be a lie, but it also, it would make us misunderstand Elizabeth and the way she operates, right? So I personally really believe, if you ask me, but she really loved Robert. I think there was, I think it's probably the only man she really loved.

I don't think she loved Anjou or, you know, the men after that. And I think that if you're a lady-in-waiting and her family, you know that. If we know that, they get that. They know that. But also like even on the more, I feel you need to imagine this 25-year-old, who are the people she's really going to trust? There's this woman called Blanche Paris, who actually was also a bull, her family was a bull and supporters back in the day. She's from Wales and she's going to be by the side of Elizabeth all her life, right? But it's by alliance. It's not by blood.

But it's one of the women that is very, very, very, very close to Elizabeth. But let us not is, Katten Carey, but especially let us not is when she is, you know, she's almost this, we call her the younger version of Elizabeth. She really looks like Elizabeth. She is very beautiful. Some people say she's more beautiful than Elizabeth. You know that always competing women and also having this younger, you know, because you're younger or you're always better. The 10 years thing seems to become quite significant than that because like, if she was like 20 years younger,

like you'd be like oh well like no she's a kid but there's something about 10 years where it's like you know if you could just knock 10 years off yourself you'd be really happy that's just like you 10 years more older right yeah it's like it's like you just behind yeah and also like so you're no longer you're 15 you're at the at the time we obviously really believe that you're women and but you're much you're 25 you're fine to be fair so here the i think the comparison is not so much but you become a confident you become someone that you you know there's There's just this kind of sister, sister-born, sister-relationship. Now, let's just go back to one thing.

You know, we discussed about Mary Belaine being the... I really do not believe. Show something else. Garth Russell doesn't either. I think you should get together and publish a book on this one. Neither of you believe that Mary Berlin and Henry VIII were lovers. No, it just makes no sense. I mean, and also, I think, like...

So now there were rumors that Catherine Kerry, so the mother of Lettis Nolis, was actually Henry the ex-daughter. That's just too hurt. That's just to hurt Elizabeth. That's just to try to say like, you know, there are so many disgusting things in your family. Yeah, yeah.

The balling sisters, the bowling horse. It's all about this. But then it would mean that, obviously, Lettis is much closer to Elizabeth that we would think. But that's not the case. Our cousin, I think that it's very clear. I do not believe at all for one minute that Catherine Kerry, It's a daughter.

I want people like, but look, she looks like Henry V. You might need to get glasses. You know what I mean? I think you want to see what you want to see. Yeah. It's like a juicy piece of gossip, but the evidence is seriously lacking. Exactly. Absolutely.

It doesn't mean that when you're, I don't know if you have cousins, like female cousins and stuff or cousins, like they can be a strong bond. It can almost sometimes can replace, you know, a sibling bond. And when you look at the sibling bond with Elizabeth, Edward, six fucking psych I'm Mary not too bad I like Mary the first side but obviously lots of issues and lots of baggage

and lots of you know I think Mary tried her breast to be fair giving her circumstances and what happened to her with their horrible father but obviously here it's not a very good stable family so I really think she really leaned on the bowling women oh

carries women and really love them and really nurtured them and really favoured them So then these women have access to Elizabeth, but not only that, I really believe that Elizabeth was very vulnerable with him. So for example, it's like you and I can imagine like we're family and we grew up together and you tell me that, and I know that you love this man. You can't marry him because he's already married. He's already married. But then his wife died, but also like it would create politically would not make, it would create some chaos.

Let's not also forget, as we all know, that the Dudley's, they always. in the shadow of power trying to grab it, right? Yeah. So, like, yeah, it doesn't have, like, with his reputation of his family, you know, they're obviously, like, all a bit power hungry, okay? And I'm not criticizing, I'm just saying, you know, I'm just stating facts. That's just what it was. That's just what it was.

So Elizabeth is not going to do it, but it doesn't mean that her feelings are going to stop, right? And so she's probably saying, you know, we know that she kept his last letter. We know that, you know, that it was not that easy. We know that in 1575, there's like this, you know, in Kenilworth Castle, who knows what happened there, you're not going to make me believe like 20 days in summer of Kennewell's Castle with corridors and this and that, that's nothing happened. I mean, I hope that something happened, otherwise what a shitty life. From the point of view of a sex historian, I always think that it's interesting that we look to sex is the thing that like cements a relationship, that like if you're not having sex and somehow it's not a proper relationship, I don't think. think that's true. You can be desperately in love with somebody, like head over heels, crazy in love with them and not have sex with them. That's entirely possible. But I also hope she got laid. I also hope she got laid. To be that, maybe it was so bad. That's why she never married because

she was entirely possible. Maybe she just tapped out and she was just like, God, that was such a waste of time. I mean, she would not be the first. Anyway. Not the last. Is Lettis married at this point when Elizabeth is in shenanigans with the dashing Dudley? She's married Walter Devereux. Who's he? He's an important noble man and he's going to do. He's a military man.

He's a strong man. Actually, I think it's a, you know, I mean, I do believe that it starts as a, it's obviously an alliance and it is approved by Elizabeth. And they're going to have three children, two boys, one's going to call Robert. and she's going to have a daughter, Penelope, who's going to be apparently a great beauty at Elizabeth's court. I mean, let's face it, like, as I said, the salad is quite pretty. So, you know, I would believe that the daughter of the salad is pretty. But anyway, so they move on, you know, like this.

But then he's, and he's going to do lots of military campaigns in Ireland for Elizabeth. Obviously unsuccessful. Elizabeth can't crack Ireland, you know. But at some point, then he goes more and more into campaigns, military campaigns, and she feels a bit... To be fair, she's with Elizabeth. She's raised her children, but she's with Elizabeth. And, you know, they just get on with their lives, right?

So she's married. She's about, like, 17. She does her duty. She's still very much a younger version of Elizabeth. There's still this kind of really strong bond between the cousins. But then her husband is going to die. I think it's 1574. And that's where I cannot forgive the salad.

Okay. It's like, towards the end of the 70s, Lettis? You can say she's falling in love. I do not. I think, no, I think you can't. I do not believe in this romantic shit. That you just, oh, things happen. No, if you think that there's something, you shut it down if it's wrong. That's me. That's how I am. She's starting to be, oh, yes, Robert Dudley. Oh, no. Oh, no. How can you do that? And that's where, like, I do not understand how anyone can defend Lettis know this about this. I do, believe that Lettis and Robert Daly loved each other, right? I think that they might have loved each other like outside. I think, but I find it utterly disgusting because for me, you kill the sisterhood completely. And she went obviously behind Elizabeth's back. Obviously, he's to blame as well. I'll be back with Estelle and Lettis after the short break. How do we know that she went behind?

So I'm just trying to get myself up to speed. So her husband is dead. He's gone, she's widowed. Robert Dudley's wife is also dead. But he can't marry Elizabeth. Yeah, he's tried. And 1575 is what we usually call as historians of the period or Elizabeth I first period.

Like we say like basically it's the last kind of attempt. So it's Kenneville, the castle is Castle of Robert. And he has this massive event. And basically it's this last try to convince Elizabeth to pursue her, right? Like it's the last, it's lavish, it's grinned and it's da-da-da-da-da. And after that, basically, you understand that there's no way. Like she'll never ever ever say yes. Okay?

So he kind of, he kind of gives up. But he gives up by putting then his own interest in one of the only members of family of Elizabeth. And that's where I think it's so wrong. I think it's so wrong I also think it's kind of it's not very healthy is it like it's a bit toxic like you know

like to go for someone who looks like the person you've loved for years Oh dear I do blame Robert as much as I blame Lettis but for me letters here crossed a line

How old was she at this point So Elizabeth 75 So Elizabeth is about 42 So lettuce is 32 Okay so we can't even say That like you know She's a young slip of a girl and has been pressured into doing this.

No. So who and Dudley get together then, behind Elizabeth's back? Yeah, they do. And they're married without rule consent. Why did they do that? Why? I don't understand. Like, they must have known she was going to be furious.

That's love because they love each other so much. I mean, what the actual... That's just stupid. If anything, that's like, love schmove. That's a dumb move on the part of both of them. It's betrayal. She's so lucky to have her head. I mean, I'm sorry, but like, so they both cancel, like, you know, especially, like,

Robert is also banished. They both banished from court. When does the queen find out? When does Elizabeth get the, get the memo? Does she get an invite to the after party or something? Can you imagine? No, so basically they marry, so it's, because it's all secret, it's a late 70s. And there's just like, I think she must have a, something was going on.

on. She must have, you know, like, there are rumors, there are gossips you find out. She found out. They didn't deny it. She completely lost the plot, but as I said, the luckity of their heads. They're banished from court. They're canceled. She's going to be harsher on lettuce than on Robert.

And people are like, oh, that's Elizabeth for you. She's so horrible. Mate, no. No. No, I don't think she's more horrible. In a way, I think that the betrayal of lettuce is much. much deeper. A man is a man.

You know, a man? Yeah, but we don't want to let him off the hook too much here just because he's a man. No, no, no, no, no. Absolutely not. But I think that you, for years he's banished, but he's going to be called back at court. And he apologized and he repented in many ways. And also, like, I think he must have told that this. I wasn't there, but, like, you never wanted me, right?

like so I had to get married again. But the question is having to get married again, Robert. But like you could have looked around a little bit further than you did. That's what I thought. That's what I thought. If they did it in secret, they knew. They knew. Of course they knew. And that's why I just feel the betrayal is so deep because I really want you to understand that Elizabeth really must have loved Lettis like a sister.

It's family, in it? It's family, but also it's the only family she got. Yeah, the only family. fight it in. It's probably one of the rare people, like she was like letting her guard down and explained how much she loved him, but she couldn't.

Yes, she must have known all of that. And so it's almost like you think, how could you do this to me? How could you? You know what? I just feel like on a sisterhood level, I just feel like Lettis has really crossed

a red line. Then she's completely banished and cancelled. like so Elizabeth's going to make things very hard for her. Where do they go? What does that mean when you're banished from the Tudor court? Where'd you go? So she's never allowed at court again. That's pretty strict.

Elizabeth obviously stops any kind of gifts. Let's face it, she was extremely generous with her, with a Kira's family, with a Boland's family. Like Lettis is a Bolin. So she stops like, yeah, all the funding, all the perks she had because she was family, all the perks she had. all the fact she had because she was someone she trusted. You know, all of this.

All of this is gone. But Robert keeps, so Robert is banished at first. And also, let's face it, he was in the council. He had ways of coming back, like, you know, like of getting his way in again, right? Because he, you know, there were lots of problems as well in the late 70s, early 80s, with someone else called Mary Surrets. So it's also a family member of Elizabeth. Apparently little cousins are shit.

Well, she doesn't have a great track record with them. so far does she? Absolutely not and I think that's another thing you know like when Lord Lord Danley Henry Downley married Mary Stuart without raw consent when he's an English subject

that was already so bad right like that you know you have to understand that not getting the raw content was not something you could do and so not you know you marry in secret but it's also like she's this woman your cousin is marrying the law

of your life. They must have been carrying on for a while as well. It's what you think. Probably, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. And so you just feel, and also, like, I think that the question of like, oh my God, it's a 10 years younger version of me. Marion LeMann that you know that I love, but you know that I can't.

It's very painful that, isn't it? But Dudley manages to worm his way back in, does he? Yes, Robert does. I would not say that Robert Lettis didn't have a loving relationship. I think he's very nice to his wife and I think she's really nice to him. I don't, I'm not, but I think we, we tend to forget that I personally believe that the reason why he loves her, loves lettuce, is because it's Elizabeth. Yeah. And the real love is Elizabeth.

So he wants to go back to her. Oh, that's just a mess. So he goes back to her and let, but he keeps giving money to his wife because his wife is like everything is, you know, is finished. She's no longer invited. But she still has influence. She has influence also because she has her children who are. growing up. And Walter Dover, her former husband, they had Robert Dauver, who's going to be the second Earl of Essex, you know, like, and it's going to be a favourite of Elizabeth.

Oh, look at that. It's a bit, it's like, we need to broaden our horizons here, people. Like, we do, you need to look around further than just who's in the same room as you, I think. So, don't you see, am I the only one who says the revenge here? I mean, yeah. Yes. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, I've got that. Yeah, clocked in. Yeah. Yeah, because Robert Devere, I mean, to be, Robert Defer becomes a favorite of Elizabeth. Here, I do really do not believe there's any more thing going on. But there's definitely kind of, and I'm sorry to say that, because you know when we always talk about older men being with younger women and we always say like, you know, that can be, well, either they're not criticized or we're like, it's a bit predatory, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

But when it's the other way around, she knew, she had the influence. She knew that she was the queen. She knew he couldn't say no. She knew that, you know, she was all the people. to have picked. And of all the people to have picked. Yeah, that's a fucking year. She picked a little cousin.

Can we leave that for a moment as well? He is also a bollin. I found it disgusting. Let's face it. Did Elizabeth ever confront Lett us? Was there ever a showdown that we know about? So interestingly, you know, in the French records, we have like what happened, you know, with the French, to be fair, the French ambassador at the time, so it was Movisier.

And this man is much more interested in what's going on with Mary Stewart and he's involved in the network of getting her out and what they're doing here is phenomenal. We're talking about here 1578 to 1582, 1583. Bonkers. Absolutely crazy. But he's still going to make a comment, well, you know, in his reports like saying that, yes, that he's heard that Elizabeth is extremely upset that one of the closest ladies in waiting has betrayed her.

He talks about the marriage and he's never seen Elizabeth that angry. And that says a lot. Because Elizabeth is a temper Yes Yes That says a lot For me that's very interesting Is how Elizabeth then

Kind of really take water Away from his mother Because he's going to be at court She's going to lavish him with gift And she still hasn't forgiven the mother letters Right But then But then what I can't believe is like what he's done

You know I think Walter really thought that Elizabeth could never do something like that. But like, you know, with a rebellion in 16 or 1, where he tries to overthrow Elizabeth, what a mad man. But then he's executed. He actually shows no mercy.

Wow. And I think it must have been very, Lettis is still alive. Shit, man. Wow. Okay. And it must have been like, well, to be fair, he, again, he's the one who's wrong, right?

So he ended up on the block. Yeah. Lettis is not so much a favourite now. But you try to overthrow her. I'll be back with Estelle and lettuce after this short break. This is just a whole saga of stupid people. If you've managed to get the ear of the queen and you've got a plum position at court and she's your bestie and your cousins, just keep it in your pants.

For God's sake. Exactly. Like you're stupid bitch. What on earth do you think you're throwing that away for a man? Are you insane? Yes, exactly. Lunacy. And Robert Dudley, like he could have just stayed there as, you know, the quote-unquote favorite.

She's obviously in love with you. You know, you're not going to get married, but you're going to be pretty all right. Yeah. And again, like, oh, idiots. There are idiots. And if it was really a really strong love story, right, if it was really a really weird, and love, I think there was more infatuation, if anything. Tell her.

Yeah. If Lettis really thought, Robert, that is the love of my life after Walter, who's dead, go to see your sister or your cousin and say, I'm very sorry, but these are my feelings. And I really, like, can we talk about this? Because I know that would, you know, I don't, I just feel like there must have been moments of that we will never be, we will never have on record. She might have said that you could get married because didn't she offer Robert Dudley up to Mary Queen of Scots at one point?

She might have said get married then. She might have done that. She might have approved it. But I think that is the whole secrecy. Silly twat. And so then, yes, she gets cancelled. But yeah. The pair of them deserved it.

That's just so dumb. It's not like we're missing out. She's not to, I do not see her as this incredibly. intelligent bright woman. What happens to her then? Where's she banished to and how does she... So she's has children that she's raising, but like what's the end of her story?

She dies quite old, like in her 80s or something. She survived Elizabeth. You know, we know that Robert, you know, also died in 1586 in the Netherlands, fighting for Elizabeth and stuff. But the one he was writing letters to, mostly, was Elizabeth. It's just all very Freudian, isn't it?

It just all... Like, it's just looking, back, it's like, it's so obvious what's happened here. And I don't know why she got into that. It was so obvious that those two had, you know, if anything, she should have seen that, oh, he's interested in me because. Because what? Because what letters?

Come on. Because you're such a... Because I remind him of Elizabeth, right? Like, that's... Yeah, exactly. So, do you really want to be option two? Do you really want to be about... She should have thought for someone who said, I want you because of you.

I could not care less about your cousin, Elizabeth. You see what I mean? I see exactly what you mean. And also, like, at some point... If she's fallen in love with Dudley and they've snuck away to get married, she must have spoken to him about Elizabeth quite a lot, I would imagine. So she's got all of the information from all. This is just so, people are so dumb when they're in love.

It's just, come on. Is it love or is it really late? I don't know what that is. I don't know what that is. Was it worth it? I don't think what it was. I really don't think it was. That was worth it.

And also, I really think that it made Elizabeth even more, you see it. is within her reign. I say that because I look at her letters and I'm someone who's read like her poems that are very private and her prayers again very private. So like I'm not saying so I feel like I just have a kind of an insight here in the way she was thinking or something. But you see as it goes on, she locks down even more. And I think that is also, you know, one event that really made her even harsher. If you cannot trust the women who, dresses you, spend all her time with you. They're kind of like this woman group where you just share secrets and you share your soul

and you share your desires and you share you. And that person knows. She can't say, I didn't know you liked him. Yeah, no, not a chance. Exactly. She knows. She absolutely knows. And just a pair of them.

It's just, oh, do you think Elizabeth ever got over that? I mean, do you think like the fact that, you know, Dudley was allowed back at court was like Let us know. She'll never forgive. Never. Never. Never. Never. And I think it's fair. Like, I think, I think it's unforgivable. Does she ever forgive Robert Dudley?

Or does she always sort of like keep him at a bit of a distance as well? Very hard question. I think she has to forgive. As I said, like a lot of bad things are happening at the time with Mary, lots of plots against her life. And he's needed at court for political reasons because of his networks, because of his understanding of what's going on. And so I think that, you know, I do not believe you can love someone you don't trust. I think the damage is done. Yeah, I think if there's no trust, there's no love.

And it's not love, it's something else. It's the regret of losing that love. You get attached to something where, like, I love the person he was before. You see what I mean? And here, I feel like she wants him close because she always had him close. It's never going to trust him again. Also, towards that end, you know, in 1580s, it's very clear that nothing's going to happen. He's never going to become king.

No, not now. No, absolutely. So I guess that the answer to the question, how did you get cancelled in the court of Elizabeth I? Is secretly marrying her boyfriend? And that seems quite fair to me. Yeah. And yeah. Yeah.

On the people that really annoy me, and it's, do you see that it's not political? You know, it's not for me, it's the personal, it's just a betrayal of someone close to you. Yeah. For a man. For a man. No. Estelle, you have been magnificent. Once again, I knew you would be.

And if people want to know more about you and your work, if they want to write your letters about letters, where can they find you? Well, they can find me mostly on Instagram, really, because I think it's the only platform that is, well, I spend lots of time on, so I just stuck my name. You're fabulous on Instagram. Yeah.

I have a YouTube channel as well on El on the Tudors, if you want some stuff where I do on locations, or I review historical content because, gosh, the Tudor's TV show. Yeah, I like watching you tear them apart. It's fabulous viewing. Thank you so much for dropping by once again. You've been a treat. Thank you so much for having me, Kate.

Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Estelle for joining us. Your hatred came through loud and clear. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like review and follow along whatever it is that you get your podcasts. Coming up, I'm going to be exploring the most feared sex. under patriarchy. I wonder what that could be. Well, you'll have to listen to find out. And if you want us to explore a subject or if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at betwixt and history hit.com. This podcast was edited by Hannah Theodorov and produced by Sophie G. The Senior Producer was Freddie Chick. Join me again, Betwixte Sheets, the history of

sex scandal and society, a podcast like History Kid. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.