Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - JFK Special 4. | How Jackie O Defined An Era

Episode Date: December 4, 2023

If the Kennedy's were America's first royal family, then Jackie was its queen.She was a style icon who, alongside her husband and president JFK, symbolised a fresh hopeful start in post-war America.And then on 22nd November 1963, the unimaginable happened.But who was the woman who led the country in its grief? Famously defining that time in America as Camelot. Who was the woman behind the immaculate hair do and pink Chanel suits? What was her life like before the spotlight, and how did she seek to rebuild it after JFK's assassination?Today Kate is joined by two guests to tell her story. Author Eleanor Herman, and first up Laurence Leamer, author of The Kennedy Women: The Saga of an American Family, to find out more.This episode was edited and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The Senior Producer was Charlotte Long.Don’t miss out on the best offer in history! Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts.Get a subscription for £1 for 3 months with code BETWIXTTHESHEETS1 sign up now for your 14-day free trial https://historyhit/subscription/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Take your seat, but Twixters. And mind your language, we are at a high society dinner in Washington, D.C. in 1952. Don't stare. But on the table just across from us, amongst the champagne flutes and silverware, A beautiful 24-year-old Jacqueline Lee Bouvier is being introduced to a much older gentleman of quite high standing. This handsome tanned, and it must be said, he is considerably older than her.

He's 36, is Congressman John Fitzgerald Kennedy. His charm is undeniable, and as he would later tell his brother Bobby, he was smitten. However, Jackie already had a boyfriend who was waiting for her outside in the parking lot. Although she might not have realised it, the universe had just presented young Jackie with a choice. Would she choose the boyfriend in the car, or would she choose ambition, charisma and political power? Yeah, yeah, she chose JFK.

And within a year, he was elected to the Senate. Within two years, they were married. Within 10 years, she really... He defined what it meant to be the first lady. And not long after that, she would lead the country in its grief for her dead husband. The Kennedy dynasty, thought of by many as being the American royal family, have a fascinating and tragic history with many famous members, JFCB being one of the most well known. And he often eclipses the other members of that family. But there were some truly fascinating people there.

In particular, the women of the Kennedy. family, not to mention the women that JFK got himself involved with. From a great grandmother with humble Irish roots and a quiet determination who dragged the family out of poverty and set the foundations of a dynasty. So she was just like, boom, boom, boom, one thing after another, an entrepreneur at a time when that just wasn't a thing for widowed Irish maids. To the world-famous scandalous affairs. I now retire from politics after having had a happy birthday sung to me.

To a shy sister who was left without the... ability to walk or talk after a disastrous lobotomy, ordered by her father. They'd only been doing the procedure for a couple of years. Rosemary was probably their, you know, 70th or 80th patient. 60 years on from JFK's death, we are looking at some of the women attached to the Kennedy family. They were fabulous and they were flawed, you know, and some of them just doomed. This is the Kennedy Women, episode four, how Jackie Oe, defined. mind and era. The latest ordeal for a family that has endured so many of them over the years. Mrs. Kennedy comes forward with Caroline in a tableau that calls for no words. Its poignancy

calls only for tears. I know it's such a long and often hopeless fight. They hope it will accomplish something. Welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets for History of Sex Scandal in Society. With me, Kate Lister. This November, it's 60 years. since President John F. Kennedy was assassinated. And to mark the anniversary, I am looking into some of the women in his life and in his family. Today, I'm speaking to two special guests about the era-defining First Lady Jackie Onassis Kennedy. Eleanor Herman, author of Sex with Presidents, who is back once again to discuss, amongst other things what it was that made Jackie so iconic, including, of course, her impeccable fashion sense.

But first up is Lawrence Lima, author of The Kennedy Women, The Saga of an American Family, to talk us through Jackie's childhood, her marriage and the impact her husband's assassination had on her. Let's go back to 1940s New York to meet a young bookish Jackie, who has more time for horses and studying than she does for boys. Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Lawrence Lema. How are you doing? Just great. I am here to talk to you about one of the most fascinating women in not just American history,

history in general, Jackie O'Kio, Jackie Onassis, Mrs. JFK. How did you become interested in particularly in Jackie O'Nassus, but in the women of JFK's life? What brought you to tell their story? Well, I wrote a trilogy which began with a 900-page book called The Kennedy Women, which traced of history of the family from the 19th century on. And Jackie was the star of that book. Wow. She's just very, very captivating.

And until I knew I was going to come and talk to you, I admit I didn't know much about her beyond the impeccably turned out suits and the beautifully quaffered hair. And she's just so on point with what she looks like. But what was her background? Did she come from a privileged background? Yes, she did. Not as privileged as she pretended it was, but she came from a good background, that's for sure. Went to the best private schools and all.

Wow. Where was her family from? From Massachusetts and New York. Okay. And it was her father that made the money, right? He was like a Wall Street broker. Her father was a stockbroker, and he was a playboy. He was an incredible womanizer. And the one woman he loved more than that, anybody else was his daughter, Jackie. And she just adored him. Wow. If a woman loves her father, she's going to love a man.

Jackie definitely left her father. Was she impacted by his womanizing? Did she know anything about that as a child? Was it all kept away from us? It was her father. Her father was this boy of my aunt. She thought he was terrific. Didn't bother her at all.

Who was he having affairs with? You look at New York Telephone Book? Right. Okay. So quite prophet. then, right? Wow. How did that impact Jackie? What was her mother's name? Well, parents got divorced. Oh, right. Oh, I see. Okay. I suppose what I'm interested about this is, do you think that this shaped her relationship with JFK? Because he was known for liking the ladies as well.

No, he'd seen her with her father. Yeah. And Jack was so much older, you know, and she was very young. She married him. And that was the course. And Jack didn't marry her because it was some profound love. He wanted to be president in the United States, and he knew he had to get, she'd get married. He needed a wife. It wasn't because he was a womanizer. He's afraid people think he was gay if he didn't get married. Really?

That was why. I suppose that makes sense. Okay, so take me back to Jackie as a child. She has a privileged upbringing. She's devoted to her father, who is very extra and bon vivant. was she a bright child? She could speak at several languages, right? Yeah, but she was a loner.

Oh, really? Like so many girls, she loved horses. She preferred to be with her horses. She wasn't interested in boys if she was a debutante, but she was trying to find her place. She was very, very intelligent. But for a woman of that generation, that wasn't considered that important.

Oh, bless her. Oh, so she had all this brains and nowhere to put it, nothing to do with it. Exactly. Where do you go with it? It wasn't clear. And of course, her mother wanted her just to marry well. Yeah.

I mean, and that's fair. That is a well-established path. Is there a sense of what Jackie wanted? She liked her horses. She loved her dad. I think when you're early 20s, you don't know what you want. You know? That's when she met him and married him.

And he was off on their honeymoon with somebody else. I didn't know that. What a scally wag. Right. We'll get to that. So go on then. How does she meet Jack? Jackie Boy. A friend sets up a dinner party.

Jack meets her. He wants to see her afterwards, but her boyfriend is sitting out in the car waiting for her, so they doesn't go. So they later go out on a date quite a few weeks later. Who was her boyfriend? Imagine being dumped for JFK. You know, a kind of stockbroker type that would have been a proper husband for Jackie, not this older, basically middle-aged politician. Hansom, that's for sure. Very handsome. How old was Jack when they met? In his late 30s. Oh, okay. Okay. And how old was she?

I think 21, very young. So they meet, they must have caught each other's eyes. She can't go out of them because she has a boyfriend out in the parking lot. When did things get going between them? The question is, how much do they get going? He wanted to get married. And she came from the right class. She was Catholic, the right family.

It was the perfect match. But it was almost an arranged match in that sense. Really? She wanted to have a nice little wedding with her friends. and Jack's father, Joe Kennedy, wanted to have an enormous wedding where he invited all the politicians and all the people they wanted to show off to. So when Jack met Jackie, he was on the prowl for a wife. He was looking at her as wife material.

He knew he had to get married if he wanted to become president in the United States. He was a very ambitious man. And he knew he was sick. He knew he had these different diseases. If he wanted to be president, he better to do it sooner or better than later. What diseases did he have? He had his Addison's disease. That was the number.

He had all kinds of problems. He took all, when he was president, he'd take 20 pills in the morning for breakfast. I didn't know that. Oh, my God. Plus amphetamines. He took amphetamines. I read that Winston Churchill drank two bottles of champagne with breakfast. Like, maybe just all the world leaders were hammered.

Okay, so I could understand why he is in the market for a wife and that someone like Jackie would tick an awful lot of boxes. Had there been anyone in the picture for him beforehand, like a pre-jerk? Jackie wife that he'd been iron up or was she like the first that he was like I want that one well no he had women he was in love with he had relationships he had deeper relationships with several women earlier than that but not that he was going to marry do you think he loved jacky i think he was in capable love wow that's a big statement why do you think that that's fascinating well it was just his makeup i mean again i said before if you're man and you love your mother you can love a woman that you

will marry. He didn't love his mother. He had a torture relationship with his mother. And he just used women. He went on by them. He used them and moved on. But he didn't move on from Jackie, but he was using her. I know a woman who was a student in Boston. She was 19 years old from a good family. And she attended one of Jack Kennedy's speeches in 1958. She was plucked out of the audience. She was at Radcliffe. He'd come in his car and he'd have an affair with her. And he brought her into the White House. And about once a month, she would go in and sleep with him. But after a year, she decided this is disgusting, and she left.

Oh, my God. There's a lot to unpack there. Wow. You'd never get away with it. Actually, maybe you would get away with it. We just don't know it. Did she know that Jack was having as many affairs as he did? Did she just turn a blind eye to it?

Or was she aware of the full extent of this? Did she know about Marilyn Monroe? How could you help that? There were so many of them. And that's what surprised me in my research. I thought the whole thing was exaggerated. It wasn't exaggerated. They were endless.

I mean, look, he just, anybody who wanted to sleep? The beautiful woman leading movie star, I want to sleep with her. But she knew, maybe not about Marilyn, but she knew about the affairs. Half the time in the White House, she wasn't even there. She was gone. I think I would be as well. So you'd think that she just kind of turned a blind eye to it? He's the president.

This is what he's going to do. I have my nice house. Well, they were talking about Jack's father. giving her a million dollars to stay married to them. That's possible. But, you know, people forget a woman of that generation, what her opportunities were. You didn't invite a divorced woman to your house. You didn't want to associate with a divorce woman because she might take your husband. And if you can get a million dollars as well, I mean, that's a pretty good sweetener, right? So tell me about their wedding day then. I hope that he managed to keep it together just for the

wedding day. Where did they get married? Was it a high society do? Yeah, it was a big Newport? A big wedding with a thousand people there. Her father had become a drunk and he couldn't even go to the wedding because he was drunk. Oh, that's sad. That's really sad. Where was he then? Just drunk somewhere? He was there, but he was incapable of coming into the wedding. Oh, that's sad. Where was her mom? Her mom was there. Okay. But she was looked on as a bit of a fashion icon even then, right? Even in the early days. She more than any first lady and more than anybody else, really, her love of food and French cuisine and French style, she changed the way Americans acted.

Really? Tell me what she changed just by being fabulous. She got American interested, interested in style on the cutting edge with these French styles, not these kinds of dresses that women were before. She was interested in art, and she had a French chef in the White House. Fancy.

Where the previous president and his wife would have TV dinners. They'd sit watching television with a TV dinners in front of them. So things have changed. That is a definite upgrade from a TV dinner. I mean, the first lady role is ever since her, I think, might have been before her, but they are so subject to scrutiny of how they look, how they dress, how they present themselves. Do you think that it was Jackie that really started all of that? Well, that's very different. Nobody looked at Eleanor Roosevelt how she was dressed, right? Each first lady sets her own style and her own role. But nobody did it better than Jackie.

But it wasn't all happiness. There was an awful lot of sadness in Jackie's life, and you've touched on some of it already. But one of the things I thought was so sad that I hadn't known before was the pregnancy losses and the miscarriages and what was happening there with their children. Yeah, that was very, very, very hard for her. And then in 63, they lost a baby then, and they were just,

he was devastating. He took a, it's surprisingly hard, I thought, but he took it very hard. How did Jackie respond to that? She went off to Europe and spent time with Onassis, which didn't make Jack very happy. Do you think that they were having an affair then? Or they just met? She probably wasn't. But obviously later they were.

Yeah. Just in case anyone is listening that doesn't know who Onassis is, could you just explain a little bit? Who was Mr. Onassis? Onassis was one of the richest men in America. Catching. And when Bobby Kennedy, died in 68 and Jackie just wanted to get her in the United States, she married her Nasus. And NASA wanted to have her on his arm. They spent very little time together, but they both got

out of what they wanted. He got precision. She got a lot of money. Not a bad deal, really. I'd be happy with that deal. Right. So take me back to the children that she has with Jack. When did they arrive? And how does she take to motherhood, to be in a mum? You know, she was a terrific mother. So often rich people, because I live in the winter in Palm Beach, it's just beyond me. I don't know what it is there, but rich people just ship their kids off to school and have nothing to do with them. I mean, what's the point? Why do you have children? She didn't do that. She was totally devoted to her two children. And beyond anything else, was a great mother. Would you say the same about Jack? Was he a great father? He was a good father. He loved his children,

that's for sure. So we've got to talk about that fateful day when JFK was assassinated. And Jackie was right there next to him when it happened. It's still so shocking to watch that footage today. Can you talk me through it of like what was happening that day? How she responded to that? Well, they were driving through Dallas in an open convertible. If you go there now, there's a museum at the Texas book deposit where it happened. It's actually a kind of small scene.

You can look out that window and you can see if you were leaky eye of your eyes on. you could put your rifle out there and shoot somebody, which is what he did, and leaving blood all over Jackie. And she handled that, how she is beyond me, when she came back to Washington, and she created this incredible funeral that is one of the great memories in American history, every step of it, from the riderless horse to the music that was played, to nudging John Jr. to salute his father as he went by. All of these were Jackie's touches.

and our memories. And afterwards, giving an interview in which she said, she talked about it was Camelot. It was Camelot. And Americans wanted to think it was Camelot. Well, it wasn't Camelot. Presidents said, not Camelot, but for a while we thought that. And then it slowly began to dissipate. We saw a much more realistic view of what it was. And I think one of the most, at least it stayed with me and it must have done with other people as well. When I saw it was the image of her, she's still got the blood on her dress when the vice president is sworn in? Well, she insisted on keeping the bloody dress on. She wanted people to see what had been done to her husband. My God, that's an incredibly powerful statement. It changed this country as much as a war. First of all, in terms of what I do,

it made people constantly see conspiracies. It was Leahy hours old who did this, but millions of Americans don't think so. It's the FBI. It's the CIA. It's the mafia. And everything we see in America these days as a conspiracy, all coming from that. America is no longer the same. Yeah. Lost its innocence on that day. Right. So how was Jackie in the immediate aftermath to her? I mean, I can't even imagine what that woman was going through and having it played out on the world stage. She must have been traumatized. Well, she became very close to Jack's younger brother Bobby. They spent a lot of time together. And people were very suspicious of that and what it was going on. I'm not. I think sharing that grief, it was perfectly understandable why they spent that much time together.

And of course, he was assassinated some years later. Yes, yes. And that's when she married ananasis. How did she react to what happened to Bobby? It must have been like it's happening all over again. Exactly. And that's what she wanted it. She said, they're killing Kennedys. I've got to get out of here. So she thought they must have been coming after her children? Right. Wow. Did she sort of have a sense of like the amount of tragedy that was happening in this family? Did she fear it? Did she...

Well, that's why she left the country. But she was in Washington after the assassination, trying to make her life there. But it was too overwhelming. The media of the people outside her house, and she moved to New York, and she had a career in publishing. Now, she could have just slapped her name on the door and not done anything, and everybody didn't perfectly happy. She didn't do that. She was a hands-on professional editor. So I know you've mentioned him already, Onassis, but where did she meet him first when she was still married to Jack? She met him when he was... in the elite circles before presidents,

but she met him and went off on his yacht in 63. I mean, that'd do it. That's a hell of a move, isn't it? Would you like to come and join me on my yacht? That's impressive. So how long after JFK's assassination did she marry Aristotle or Nassas? It was five years later after Bobby Kennedy was murdered. How was that received by the American public?

I don't know much about that. Were they completely happy with it? Or was it like when Charles married Camilla over here? And we all went, I don't think so. The Americans wanted her to stay in her widow's weeds. They wanted to be the perennial winner, and she wanted to have her life, and she made the right decision. She absolutely did. And she was active in politics right up to the emotional city, because she was supporting the Clintons in their campaign in the 90s.

Right. How did she support them? What was she doing? She just like turn up looking immaculate in a Chanel suit. She was very careful. She wouldn't go and give speeches. She was very kind of aware of her image and how she should act. When was it that she passed away? It was the 90s, wasn't it?

And she had cancer and she died in the early 90s. Where is she buried? She's buried next to her husband at a Haunted Cemetery. Can I ask us my final question? Because I get a sense that you really do admire Jackie. What is it that you admire the most about her? Through all of your historical research, what are the qualities about her that really shine through?

I admire her as a mother. I think given everything and how I see rich folks bring up their kids, all that she went through with those kids and she was going to bring them up well in detail. She didn't push them off on a nanny. She brought up her children. Lawrence, you have been wonderful to talk to. And if people want to know more about you and the research that you're doing, where can they find you? Just all over the place.

My new book is Hitchcock's Bonds. It just came out. My book, Capote's Women, which came out two years ago, is being made into a big series. That will be in February and March. It'll be on who in the United States. It's on Disney Plus. Wow, I will definitely keep a lookout for that. Thank you so much.

You have been an absolute treat. Okay, great fun to do this. I'll be back to talk more about Jackie after this short break. Thank you so much to Larry for joining us to talk about this amazing woman's life. And now I would like to welcome our second guest, Eleanor Herman, to find out more about the details of her relationship with JFK. Was she truly happy? And what was it like to be married to a man who enjoyed the company of so many other women?

Oh, there were so many. When you think of the most iconic First Lady in American history, it's her. That's her, right. Right? I mean, even Melania Trump's inauguration day outfit that baby blue with the pillbox hat. It's a tribute to the style of Jackie Kennedy. She had such a lasting impact on what it means to. to be a first lady. But where did Jackie come from? I'm going to guess that she came from

quite a privileged background. Yes, she did come from a very wealthy background. Her father was Jack Bouvier, who was a multi-millionaire. They called him Black Jack Bouvier, and he was quite a womanizer, and her parents did end up getting divorced. And, you know, she had an excellent education, her junior year in college. She studied in Paris, so she was quite fluent in French and she admired French culture, French fashion, French cuisine, all things French.

And this is knowledge that she brought with her to the White House in terms of her clothing, which everyone emulated around the world, and in terms of her redecorating the White House. She is known for being

an absolute fashion icon. Had she always been interested in fashion? Was this something that she cultivated as she went along? No, she always was interested in fashion. You can see pictures of her from high school and college, and she just always looked beautiful, dressed beautifully. Immaculately turned out. Big on Chanel, wasn't she? She loved a Chanel. Yes, also Dior. They're French brands. Was there any kind of conflicts around that,

that she should be wearing American labels and not being quite such a francophile? I don't think so at the time. I think that's a more recent concept that the First Lady, should promote American designers. For instance, when Kate Middleton married Prince William several years ago, she wasn't going to go with a French designer or an American designer, right? That there are certain political and PR considerations when choosing your gowns. But I think in the early 60s, that really wasn't a thing. Do you think pivoting here from fashion to affairs,

do you think that her father, from what I've read, that she adored, she loved him, but he was a womanizer. Do you think that that shaped her relationship with JFK, who was a womanizer? That it played into that for her somehow? I think that she probably expected the man she married would have some mistresses over the course of the marriage, as her father did.

I think she was absolutely unprepared for what she ended up getting with JFK, which was this pathological sex drive. Must have been so difficult for her. And I think in that social milieu, these people who are that wealthy don't feel that they need to deny themselves anything. And I do wonder if she had been raised in a family where the father was a faithful husband,

perhaps she would not have married JFK. Where did they meet? Does it have like a honeymoon period, their relationship, or was it all business? They met at a party in D.C. Jackie was working for the Washington Times Herald, which was a major newspaper in the early 50s. And she was a, it's such a cute term, an inquiring camera girl. So she was a very good photographer.

So she'd wandered the streets of D.C. And she'd asked somebody, well, you know, what do you think about this, that or the other? Things that were in the news. It could be local. It could be international. New fashions, new cars. And she would do these cute little interviews with people on the street. then take pictures on them. And she really enjoyed doing that. And of course, because of her family

connections and also because of her newspaper job, she was invited to all the best parties. And so she met him at one of them. And he was, I think he was about 35 when he realized he needed to settle down that at the time, if a man was 35 and unmarried, people thought he might be homosexual or maybe he had no sex drive whatsoever. And that's not a good thing for politics. And so he, he He decided that it was time to settle down, and he could have gotten any woman. He wanted, and he was dating Hollywood stars like Gene Tierney, beautiful women. But he wanted a woman of brains and class and fashion and had to be Catholic, too. So that was rather limiting.

And as soon as he met Jackie, he thought, this is the one. Now, was he in love with her? I don't know how much he could have really loved any woman, but I think he wanted her to be the most gracious, beautiful accessory on his arm to make him look good and to also help him win the presidency. What did she wear when she got married to him? What was her wedding like? It was an incredible wedding.

It was the wedding of the year, maybe one of the weddings of the century. And it was a very traditional early 50s dress with a large skirt and lace. And she looked very happy. I mean, in retrospect, she probably wished she had worn. weren't black. Oh, this is a sad question, but do you think she loved him? Yes, I really do. He was a magnetic personality.

I mean, people who met him for the first time, you know, women and even to a certain extent, men, they were just bowled over by him. Everybody fell in love with JFK. He had this quality where he would look at you and sit very still and ask you questions. And he was so totally focused on you. made you feel like a god. And she was in love with him. And she was interviewed by Time Magazine.

Maybe it was 57 before she had children. They'd been married a few years. It was being filmed. The question was, Jackie, you're really in love with him, aren't you? And she answered, oh, I don't know. I guess so. And there was this dead silence in the studio. And then she said, oh, wait, I ruined that, didn't I?

I guess we should start over. So I think his rampant infidelity really put the cabosh on her feelings for him. And her friend Truman Capote said in later years that by the time he won the presidential election in 1960, their relationship had become an utter farce. And that he thought she fell in love with him again only after the assassination. So the image of her grieving at the funeral, you know, in the black veil. and all of that. That was real. I mean, I don't think anyone could put on a show like that.

Maybe she was grieving for all of her hopes and dreams and, you know, the marriage that wasn't at all what she wanted. And, you know, there was just so much grief wrapped up in that moment at the funeral. Do we have any sense of whether or not they had a happy sex life with a, you know, quick draw Kennedy from what you've told me? He was really a terrible lover. and even with Jackie, she told her friends that it was so quick and he didn't satisfy her. And she wondered if she even satisfied him.

And she asked if maybe she had failed him somehow as a wife that he didn't seem to really be enjoying himself. And she certainly wasn't. The final question about the wonderful Jackie O is what lasting legacy do you think she's had on the White House. Well, she certainly had a lasting legacy on its appearance and its burnishing. And this was one of the ways she dealt with the pain of his toxic sex life. So she threw herself into redecorating the White House. There were these old random pieces of furniture, nobody knew where they come from. At the time, when a president left office, he would just take with him the mirrors, the chandeliers, the tables that he liked. So she formed a commission. They would go out

and try to locate, you know, George Washington's candlesticks and John Adams chairs and start the White House Historical Commission. You know, she'd come into the White House, you know, with the sense of French design and the history of valuable pieces of furniture. And she saw this, this mishmash and set about transforming it. And it has been beautiful up to the present day. And of course, there have been many redecorations and modifications, but it all pretty much follows her initial redecoration of the White House. And I think she also, in terms of her fashion, as we mentioned, as an icon, not just for subsequent first ladies, but for all of us, it's just classic. You know, a lot of fashions don't age well. I mean, go look at pictures, well, look at pictures of myself from the

70s and 80s, and that sort of answers that question. But, you know, her fashions really never went out of style. And I also think she's an icon of a person of great dignity and great kindness who put up with a horrific marriage for the sake of the country and the sake of her children. And this was a time of great international fear of the Soviet Union launching missiles. They had built the Berlin Wall during JFK's presidency. There was the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis. And she knew she just could leave the, you know, divorce the president. It had never been done before and certainly couldn't be done with all of those international crises going on that would tarnish the reputation of the president and the nation.

So she was really stuck and I have a lot of respect for her that she did the very best she could under horrific circumstances in her marriage. Ellen, thank you so much for swinging by to tell us a bit more about Jackie. You have been wonderful. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the latest episode in our mini-series on the Kennedy Women. We have one more to go and that will be taking a look at the so-called Kennedy Curse and its lasting legacy on this All-American family.

If you like what you heard, please do drop us a review. I promise we do read them all. The senior producer on this podcast is Charlotte Long. The producer is Stuart Beckwith. This podcast contains music by Epidemic Sound.