Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - King Arthur's Sex Life

Episode Date: December 19, 2023

The words "the man, the myth, the legend" can easily apply to King Arthur.Today we're looking past the round table, the sword in the stone, and his magician mate Merlin to explore what his love life can tell us about this man.Did his love Guinevere really do the dirty on him with his mate Lancelot? What does his own love life say about him as a man?Today, dear friend of the show Eleanor Janega, host of sister podcast Gone Medieval and author of The Once And Future Sex, is joining Kate to separate the man from the myth and legend.This episode was edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.Don’t miss out on the best offer in history! Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts.Get a subscription for £1 for 3 months with code BETWIXTTHESHEETS1 sign up now for your 14-day free trial https://historyhit/subscription/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. It's my, Kate Lister, you're here, I'm here, we're all here. But before we can go any further together, I think you know what's coming your way. Take a seat. Here is your fair do's warning. This is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about dulty things and an adulty way, about a range of adult subjects, and you should be an adult too.

And now if you hang around and you get offended, well, tough tits. what to tell you, because fair do's, we did warn you. It is a mild spring day in the year 481 AD, and we're here at the Church of St. Stevens for the marriage of Guinevere and Arthur Penn Dragon King of All England. Now, my memory of the day's events are a little bit hazy betwixters. That could be the copious amounts of mead that I've been quaffing, those medieval parties are something else, you know. So I will refer to Alfred Lawyer, Tennyson's rather Victorian account of that day. In his poem Iddles of the King, which tells of the rise and the fall of King Arthur,

Tennyson describes a wedding where the son of May descends on their king. It was actually believed that marrying in May brought bad luck, which does not bode well for this marriage. Garlands of flowers were everywhere throughout the ceremony, which was officiated by the wizard Merlin, no less. Whilst it's a joyous occasion and a crowning moment for the newly established Camelot, the love is not going to last.

Oh no. A love triangle between Guinevere, Arthur, and Arthur's bestest mate and his bestest knight, Lancelot, arises. And there are supposed infidelities on both sides. So this marriage is just not going to go the distance. But hey, let's not put a dampener on things

and we'll just sit back and enjoy the day, though, Merlin, show us a trick. What do you look for a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect confidence of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing the funny. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

Goodness, I feel so done. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Terry. Welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the History of Sex Scandal in Society. With me, Kate Lister. King Arthur's story is one of the great legends of British history. His rise to King of All England, the battles that he fights alongside his knights of the round table, the quest for the Holy Grail, sword in the stone, all of that stuff.

You know it well. But behind the medieval mythology of it all, behind Merlin the magician and the lady of the lake who was supposed to have given Arthur his beloved Excalibur, there were some pretty dodgy, sexy shenanigans going on, at least in the early to mid-medieval versions of that story. Hmm. King Arthur was not quite so innocent himself. Today I am joined by a fabulous friend of the show

and the host of the history hit podcast Gone Medieval, Eleanor Janaga, to separate the man from the myth. I am ready to do this if you are Betwixters. Let's go. Welcome back to Betwix the Sheets. It's the one the only. It's Eleanor Yaniga. How are you doing?

Kate, I am always good when I see your beautiful shining face. What can I say? What can I say? I'm so thrilled that you're back. Honestly, you are one of our most, I think you are our most popular guest. No shade to anybody else. Stop. Yeah, it's true.

Stop. It's true. People are. loving what you are serving on this podcast, miss. So we had to have you back. And King Arthur, that's what we're talking about today. What an interesting, strange little subject he is, right? It's part of British history, but also it's a bit of French history, but a German.

There's some Italian in there. The Welsh would want a shout out, as would be Irish as well. It's this melting pot of different stories, right? Yeah, it's really interesting. So there's a kind of a term that medieval people use when they talk about what we now call like Arthuriana, although, you know, maybe Arthurianna is still happening. Like if you write something about King Arthur now, then it's like it's added to the canon, right? That's still Arthiriana. But they have this way of talking about it where they call it like the material of the English, right?

Where they say, like, this is kind of like the literary thing to write about if you're going to write about England. And there's kind of like two schools of thought with that. when British people, so like when Welsh people or English people, you know, kind of write about Arthur, they often write about him as though this is history, right? So you have guys like your boy, Jeffrey of Monmouth, who writes histories, right? So it would be like me or you saying, okay, well, here we go. I'm doing a history of the British. And then he's like, and then King Arthur, you know, right? And he's like, King Arthur's a guy. He's a definite real guy. And here's like the things about him and they kind of write that into the story of Britain. And so his thing is he sort of

positions Arthur as having been alive sort of this time after the Romans have left Britain, but before like the Saxons come over from the continent. And it's in that kind of slice of time that he places Arthur, right? Now, Welsh people had been writing about Arthur for centuries before this. But when you look at like the really early kind of Welsh material, it's like campfire stories. And it's often like little rhymes, I often say kind of like, because they're like poems and things. And they'll be, it's really funny. It's like a super early hip hop where like they will like introduce varying nights of the roundtable. And it's like, my name is Arthur and I'm here to say, I like killing boars in a serious way.

And then like, you know, and they'll be like, and next on the mic is Sir Kay. And it's just kind of like that's how they introduce everyone. And like all of the adventures like they involve so many boar. like, Jesus. Yes. I hope you enjoy boar hunting. Yeah, boar hunting is a big thing in this particular legend. And then like you kind of get to sort of high medieval period.

And then French people are like, girl, I'm about to write about King Arthur and make it sexy. Right. And so this becomes sort of like the romance tradition and the kind of courtly love tradition. And so that's when kind of not to put too fine a point on it, but you and I as sexist story and start going, oh, now I'm interested. Although, having said that, there's some weird sex stuff that comes up even in the history is where you're like, really? Okay. Yes. You know, so rather a lot of Merlin, like, disguising Arthur's dad as somebody else so he can go like bang that somebody else's wife.

That's a fucking weird origin story, that one. I mean, the thing about the Arthurian legends, like you're alluding to there, is that there isn't really one authoritative, this is the original. It's a hodgepodge of so many different. people telling the story, but at some point it gets decidedly weird, Arthur's origin story, and I'm not sure if that's, is it French or where this one comes from, but you tell me the story of how Arthur was conceived, because it's fucking weird. Yeah, so you got your boy Merlin, and Merlin is kind of a wholesale invention by Jeffrey of Monmouth, right? So Jeffrey of Monmouth is kind of the one who comes up with Merlin. And like, you know, he writes a series of prophecies about

Merlin and he's sort of the one who comes up with the story. And so you've got Arthur's father, Uther Pendragon. And Uther Pendragon is at war with a neighboring king. And he also has the hots for said king's wife. And so Merlin is like, all right, buddy, you know, the thing that we're going to do is I'm going to magic you. So he puts a glamour on Uther Pen dragon so that he looks like his enemy, the other king, and then he goes and sleeps with that guy's wife. The one he really fancies. The one he really fancies. And you know, to me, like I would classify this in non-consensual territory, but they're kind of like, you know, romance.

And you're like, mm-hmm, great. And that's how Arthur's conceived, right? So Arthur is basically like, it's like a cuckled job, you know, to use an old term. What year is this that Jeffrey is coming up with this story about Arthur's conception? Because what I really like about the Ethereum myth is, it doesn't matter which one you're looking at. It doesn't matter how old it is. They all place it in a time, a long, long time ago. Yeah.

Even when you're reading the text that is from a long, long fucking time ago, it's still going, it was really long before this. Oh yeah, and that's what's really, really interesting, is because, like, Jeffrey of Momlitz, so he's kind of writing in the late 11th. century, 12th century, like early 12th century, right? That's when he's doing all of this. So, you know, when we think about Arthur now, we kind of go, oh, yeah, well, these are medieval people, but they're like, well, they kind of place, I suppose, Arthur, in the early medieval period. So they are sort of like, this is not even what some people quite incorrectly would call the Dark Ages, because Rome hasn't collapsed yet. Rome still exists, but it's retreated from Britain, which is also cast as a good thing. They're like, Rome ought not be here because

Arthur should be ruling, right? So it's kind of like this time when you have the contraction of the Roman Empire, but it still exists. So late antiquity in general, if that makes sense. Okay. It's people in what we would call the high medieval period writing about people in late antiquity. So kind of like 500 years ago, something like that. Yeah. It's always like once removed from whoever's writing it, right? It's just in the this kind of mythical once upon a time type of area. Okay, so Jeff of Monmouth, 11th century, very early, writing histories with a lot of creative license involved.

That would be fair. Like, the bits that he wasn't quite sure about, he just went, no, I'm going to make this up. He was the one that came up with this weird story about Arthur's conception, which is basically, it's rape, isn't it? There's no other way of kind of dressing that up one. To have Merlin make Uther look like this. woman's husband so she has sex with him. But there's a lot of weird birth conceptions in the

Arthurian myth. Yeah, like eventually Merlin gets his own weird conception as well. So like eventually Merlin gets his origin story, which is like a demon goes and has sex with a princess. It's kind of like an incubi by story. And there's kind of like a shadowy group of demons. They're essentially making Merlin a type of Antichrist is the idea where they're like, well, we're going to go. And we're going to put like a half demon out in the world and then he'll do all kinds of like terrible things. But because Merlin's mom is like a nice lady, she then like names Merlin after her grandfather. And by virtue of naming him after her grandfather, it's like this dispels the power of the demons. And then Merlin just becomes like a magic guy.

And this does a couple of things. Like it explains how Merlin can be magic. But it also is kind of, you know, a Christian story about. the power of nurture versus nature. But it's another weird conception, right? Where you're like, seems strange, right? And, you know, a lot of the conceptions are all kind of criss-crossed up. You know, you have Arthur having sex with the mothers of various members of the roundtable.

You have various members of the round table having sex with like, as we'll get to, you have, like, Lancelot has sex with Wennevere. Sometimes, depending on who you ask, Winnevere is having sex with like Arthur's sons. You know, it's a mess. Wow. The entire thing is incredibly, you know, like in high school, when everyone would just kind of like make out with each other's friends because it's like, you know, like, six people and you just kind of like trade off.

I thought you could say, like, remember in high school when a wizard turned you into the likeness of someone you were waging war on and then you was going to go, fuck, Alan. What school did you go to? Yeah, well, you know, it's wild out here in America. What can I say? So what's kind of interesting about the Arthur Conception story? It's all kinds of weird. Then it gets picked up and then it's written about by other authors and other authors.

And it kind of becomes established as like this thing that happened until it got to the 19th century when the Victorians went, well, we can't talk about that. And they sort of stopped. But what's interesting in the story is that it's not viewed as a sexual assault. The issue that arises from it is whether or not Arthur is legitimate. Yeah. And this is the thing, right? That's quite interesting because, you know, it gets back to what I'm always bagging on about,

where, you know, women quite often, and especially wives, it's like, you know, they're not people, right? They're kind of property. They're not people. And so... No. No. No. And so this is kind of like, you know, part of why this is acceptable because it's like, well, I'm at war with this guy.

So obviously, like, Shag and his wife is on the table, right, as part of it. Damaging his castle? Damage in his wife. What's the difference, right? And the big question is always going to be succession. because with rich people, the thing that matters is always this question of succession and what gets passed down to who. So it's this very troubling thing, and which we often see in terms of medieval attitudes towards rape, you know, where rape is not a crime against a woman. It's a crime against another man who is seen as having charge of the woman.

It's more of a property dispute than anything else. So it's like if a woman is unmarried, you damaged her father or her brother, if her father is. dead. If a woman is married, you've damaged her husband. You haven't damaged her. It's so difficult from a modern perspective to read it and to like make sense of it. But that's absolutely what happens in this story because Uther then marries this woman that he's basically tricked into bed. And he kills her husband as well. That's like the other really shit thing. So like it's not just a sexual assault. It's a murder as well. He marries her. She then gives birth to Arthur and kind of sobbingly confesses, oh God, I think the baby might be illegitimate at which point he goes,

no, it was me. I tricked you and now we're married so it's fine. Tana! It's just like fucking hell. And you see this a lot in like various Arthurianna stories

about other knights as well where there is a super, super common theme. Less of like the glamour and the rape and then the retrospective marriage. But it's incredibly common for a night to be out in the woods, get challenged by another night, kill that night.

then subsequently find the castle that night owned and then marry the wife. Wow. Like over and over again, you have within Arthuriana, basically widows marrying the murderers of their husbands. And like that's treated as a completely normal way of doing things. And like it's almost like a fait accompli. Like if you murder a guy, then yeah, you get his wife, obviously, right? As like a trophy prize. It's like how you get his horse or his armor.

It's like an AI and his wife and his castle. Like off you go. be oh man the number of like of the women who are kind of like yeah well I guess sure I mean like I guess that to a certain extent I'm like I guess that these men are all trash so you're kind of like I don't know one or the other fine but what can I say like you know I don't have a whole lot of nice things to say about a lot of these guys let's just put it that way which is kind of funny because when you talk about the king Arthur myth it's very much presented as oh god King Arthur, Camelot, the best of the best, the most noble, the most chivalrous,

when knights were out charging and damsels needed rescue in. But when you actually unpick the origin stories of this stuff, it is some serious Jerry Springer shit that is going on. Right? Yeah, exactly. And I mean, part of that whole, oh, it's, you know, blah, blah, blah, chivalry and all that, you know, that's Victorians. You know, it's Victorians being like, oh, we're going to rewrite this.

Because, you know, medieval people, there's no such thing as a code of chivalry, right? It's like chivalry is kind of like, yeah, well, you need to be nice to other guys who have horses. Yeah. Right. Like that's where the chivalier comes from. And it's like, and also, I don't know, there's some women in there. Maybe shag them if you kill their husbands. I don't know.

Like, you know, so it's for medieval people, it's not the same misunderstanding. It's not the same understanding of the way that things worse. And indeed, their idea of romance is really different. Like, yeah, you do have marriage within this. And occasionally you see marriages of people who are in love. like Eric and a need get married and they're very much in love but hilariously the entire

plot line of that is like fellows isn't gay to love your wife essentially where it's like he gets married and loves his wife and is like at home and everyone's like what are you some kind of wuss ditch your wife and like go on a quest and everyone is like stop loving your wife and like go to the forest like that's yeah

you know I remember that one yeah and everyone else like for the most part you don't necessarily marry people that you're in love. Like sometimes, some of the more minor characters do, but, you know, it's courtly love, right? When we say courtly love, it's reflecting the conditions of court life. So, you know, you get married because it makes good business sense and there are, you know, important contracts to be made. And you fall in love with the hot guys who are hanging around. You know, it's not about love when you get married. And that's what our theory on a from the medieval period reflects. I'm always trying to explain this to the students that I teach the medieval literature to Courtney Love, not Courtney Love, that's something very different.

Cortly Love, it's not fancying somebody. It's not even necessarily being in love with somebody. It's chivalric conventions of a knight must have a lady love. That thing that Shrek rips off where they're like, oh, I drop this knight and you accept my favour and she drops the handkerchief. All of that shit's Cortley Love, isn't it? It's a performance to a certain extent.

having someone to say, oh, I'll wear your favor at the joust. Yeah. You know, do they shag? Yeah. For your money, like that's the handkerchief is foreplay. Yeah. And, you know, but not all of them do. So it's one of these things where we, it's a very difficult to know.

How much of this is just kind of like, oh, we're playing a weird ritualized game involving handkerchiefs and how much of it is like, and also sometimes we shag, right? You do because obviously no one is like had a big affair with the guy I gave my handkerchief to. Like, no one's going to write that down, right? But we know the conditions are such that it wouldn't be unusual. But having said that, this is where Arthuriana is interesting because it sort of functions in that troubled place where you have all of these affairs. And sometimes it's like, oh, isn't that romantic? Like, especially with Guinevere and Lancelot, everyone accepts that that's terribly romantic, terribly romantic.

But at the same time, it contributes to the downfall of Camelot. So there's always the thing about how it is terribly. romantic to be in love with someone outside of your marriage, but there's that warning, like, probably you shouldn't shag, which was basically code for do hand jobs. Because it's sort of like, well, have the kinds of sex where you're not going to, like, trouble the lineage, right? Yeah. You're not going to bring into question whether or not anyone's error is legitimate.

Don't get knocked up. Mm-hmm. Which is great advice, actually. Very sensible advice. But speaking of bizarre conceptions, so Arthur's own conception is frankly fucking weird. But one of the things that is often downplayed, especially when we're talking about Disney and kids' versions of this myth,

is that Arthur has a son of his own as a couple, but Mordred. Tell me about his son Mordred and how Mordred was brought about. So Mordred is born as a result of a brief affair, between Arthur and Morghose. And Morgose is the wife of King Lot of Orkney. And so this is a really interesting story from the standpoint of courtly love because King Lott of Orkney and Arthur are friends,

their homies. And also Morgose is the mom of Sir Gwain. So she's Dev Patel's mom, all right? Like, God bless her. Thanks for that. And Arthur's half sister. Yes, but he doesn't know that. But I think we should lead with that, Eleanor. Like I think that's quite,

But he doesn't know that because his dad knocked his bum up in the guys and so. So anyway, she is his half-sister because she's the daughter of Egrane and the Duke of Titagil who's kind of like the legitimate guy, the guy that Arthur's dad was pretending to be. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. When Uther Pendragon knocks Arthur's mom up, he's pretending to be this guy. And she's like, they're half-brother and sister, right? But he doesn't know this. He doesn't know this. Oh, well. And in one of the tellings. And so this is Thomas Mallory's version, the Limort de Arthur, which is kind of like 15th century. And it's the one that like people, like real heads are very much into the more to Arthur.

Right. And what he writes about this is, you know, Arthur comes to court. He's just hanging out and he sees Morgos. And she comes in with all of her ladies and says that she's richly besieen with her four sons, Gawain, Ghaeris, Agriven and Gareth, and lots of knights and ladies. And he's like, ooh, hot lady with a big. entourage and four sons. I love it. And apparently, quote, the king cast great love onto her and desired to lie by here. Now, Morgos seems kind of be like, uh, or like, whatever.

But does she know? She doesn't know. She didn't know. Right. Okay. So she doesn't know. And like, weirdly, everyone is all like, come on, sleep with Arthur. And her husband's like two thumbs up. Like, you know, it's like, it's some kind of like swinging scene or something like that where it's like, Yeah, come on, everybody, it's a feast. Time to shag Arthur, like, married lady. And she's like, well, I guess, like, whatever. And everyone's pretty chill about it. Like, it is not presented in the Marta Arthur as a problem other than the fact that they are half-brother and half-sister.

It's like, the fact that she's married to King Law is like neither here nor there, like, whatever. So they kind of have a one-night stand at this feast as is traditional, I guess. As you do, right? As you do. then Morgos is knocked up and she gives birth to their son Mordred right so for those counting that means that Mordred is both his son

and his nephew normal nasty very normal but it also means that like Merlin is like I thought I told you not to like knock your half sister up and he's like what oops and so there is this prophecy that this is the person who's going to bring down catalog catalog he's going to bring down catalog

lot. Yeah. So, so, so Morj was going to bring down Camelot, right? And so Arthur is like, uh-oh, knocked my half sister up and have this bastard son. So he has like this really messed up plan, which is like, all right, what we're going to do is we're going to round up all the children that were born on May Day because the prophecy is also like, he's going to be born on Mayday that any lords and ladies had. And he then puts all these little kids out on a boat and puts the boat out to sea and the ship sinks. And all of the babies who are about like four weeks old or less die except Mordred. And everyone's like, well, there you go. So it's, this whole story is kind of part of the why you have to understand that Camelot falls because it's like it's not just the knock

knockin your half sister up, which is of course bad. But it's like probably all the infanticide that maybe Arthur deserves to lose his kingdom because, you know. It's so glossed over that little bit. Nine babies die. Right? That's like some proper herod shit. Yeah, it is, right? And anyone else, you know, you would be all like, this man is a villain, right?

He's like going around shagging his friend's wives who are his half-sisters and then he kills other people's babies about it. Doesn't seem like terribly kind. No. So that's how you get Mordred. The problem isn't the shagging your friend's wife. The problem is shagging your half-sister. and then killing everyone's baby about it. Fuck.

Very, very messed up. And Disney missed that one out of the sword in the stone. You'd think that Arthur would have learned his lesson from, you know, accidentally shagging your half-sister and then begetting the child that will doom the kingdom as you know it. But he has other affairs. Oh, yeah, yeah. So, like, he also shags at one point in time a woman named Lenores,

leonors, I think. L-I-O-N-R-S. which I think is probably one of the early forms of Eleanor, which is fine, great. And she's hot. That's what we know about her. Again, like Mallory describes her as a passing fair damsel. And she is the daughter of an Earl named Sanam. And he basically has some big battle.

She gets sent to do homage to him kind of as a representative of her father. And they basically look at each other. Their eyes bug out of their heads and turn into hearts. Right. Mallory says about that is King Arthur set his love greatly on her, and so did she upon him. And so the king had a do with her. Wow, a do. A do?

Fuck. Is he the king at this point, or is this so in his wild oats? Yeah, no, he's the king. Yeah. Fuck, ma. Yep. Right. I know, right?

But this is treated as completely fine and above board. And everyone is like, oh, yeah. And she gets knocked up. And everyone is like, oh, yeah, King Arthur's bastard son, whatever, that's fine. And she gives birth to a son called Boar, and he becomes a night of the round table. That's the whole story where it's, there isn't a message to this one or, you know, any kind of lesson to be learned. It's just like, I don't know, sometimes King Arthur knocks chicks up. But at least with this, as opposed to Morgose, like Morgose is like really indifferent and kind of gets peer pressured into shagging Arthur.

At least with this one, like, Linor's is kind of like, oh, yeah, like I'm about that life. Let's get down to it. So, like, at least, you know, you have, like, one lady who's really into it. And no one really gets on her for giving birth to a son out of wedlock. And King Arthur treats Boar very well and hey-ho. So it's kind of like a happy ending story. And I guess, like, maybe it's just sort of like introducing the possibilities of life if you're the king, right? I'll be back with Eleanor and Arthur after this short break.

So we've got a king who's kind of philandering in the medieval version. of this myth, but no one seems to mind too much. Let's talk about the introduction of Gwynnevere, because her relationship with Lancelot tends to be the one that everybody focuses on. But Gwenevere wasn't always part of the Arthurian myth. She was not a later edition, but she certainly wasn't one of the original cast.

Yeah, no, not at all. The original cast is basically like, it's a dude's rock kind of moment. It's like, here's Arthur and his boys. Sometimes they shag chicks. Fantastic. And Gwenevere kind of like comes into that. And Guinevere is sort of introduced as like a bit of a prize to be won.

Like everyone agrees she's a big old babe. And his marriage to Guinevere is sort of like establishes him as king when he eventually consolidates all of England under his power. And again, like, you know, we have Mallory in the Lomort's Arthur kind of write about this. And she is the son of a guy called King Lodeggerens, which is a bit of a mouth. but fine. And Arthur is like, well, this is a person to marry for reasons of esteem. It's not necessarily like a romance. It's like this is sort of the done thing. So he sends Merlin off to go do marriage arrangements for him, which is kind of standard. That's what you would expect to see from a king at the time. And so then King Le de Guerrance accepts and like

Guinevere gets kind of sent back down. And in Mallory's version, he also, he also, also sends as her dowry the roundtable. Wow. And a hundred knights along. So it's like, you know, establishing why you kind of do this marriage is that there is a real kind of bevy of knights that come along with it. And it's sort of establishing that this is a consolidation of military power. Not everyone agrees with Mallory on this one.

You know, oftentimes the roundtable is set up before Guinevere ever came along. But hey-ho, right? So then, you know, you kind of have like a bit of a marriage. and in the medieval ones, it's kind of like not very interesting, right? Like they get married in the Church of St. Stevens, which is funny. That's about it, right? And so, like, hey-ho, you've got like, you've got a diplomatic marriage. Standard king stuff, right?

It's not until you get to, surprise, surprise, the Victorian period, that this gets played up as a bit more of a romance, like as though they are actually kind of in love. And we have all of these things, like, so Tennyson writes his own piece of Ethereum, called the Idials of the King. And he's like, they had a big wedding. Like, ooh, Arthur wears all white to the wedding, which is quite funny, which is like a symbol of his purity.

And I'm like, yeah, sure, bro, definitely doesn't have like several bastard children running around. Uh-huh, cool. He doesn't in Tennyson, though, because Tennyson deletes all of that. He got Maloney's text and he just went, no, delete, delete, delete, delete, delete, delete, delete, like nobody is shagging anyone that they shouldn't be apart from Guinevere. who he is awful to. He is such a twat to her. Yeah.

And like, it's interesting because he uses all this weird kind of like a Victorian symbolism around their wedding where like, so for example, they get married in May. And like, Victorians are like, no, no, one gets married in June. One doesn't get married in May. And so you're supposed to understand this means that like, oh, this is going to cause like bad luck or whatever. Oh, wow. You know, which question mark. Okay, Victorians, sure. And then there's like a big wedding.

He talks all about the flowers that they bring, like, and the big bouquet that she has. And so this is quite interesting because you start to see, like, in Tennyson, like, that's the stuff that people kind of grasp on to right now. And they're like, oh, romance and all of these things, right? But for medieval people, it's like, this is a business contract that was conducted. They get married for very good reasons, according to medieval people, but it's not about love, which opens you up to, to the love triangle. Enter Lancelot. Lancelot and Guinevere.

Ooh, he's sexy. Oh, he's French. Oh, la la. Of course he is. That's a very French-sounding name. He just sort of, he's saunters in. Cretti and de Trois, who first wrote about Lance. Yes. So, of course he's French. But tell us about Lancelot. Who is Lancelot? And why is he the bestest of the best? Well, he's the bestest of the best because a Cottingdeus says so.

Like, within Arthurianna 2. you have like whoever's the best knight changes. So like with the Welsh ones, it's K. And then it becomes Gawain for a while. And then it changes to Lancelot. And so Lancelot is essentially like sexy Superman. And Quetitin de Trois introduces him in this very great piece of Arthuriana, which is called the Knight of the Cart.

And basically the story goes like this. There's an evil knight from far away, of course. And he says, Arthur, you should send your best knight out for a joust. and if whoever fights him wins, then he gets Gwynnevere. But if he loses, then he's got all these hostages that he'll send back to Camelot. So basically, Kay, who by this time becomes a bad guy, so he was originally the best night, but Kay eventually becomes like a guy that everybody hates later on. He loses the joust.

Gwine gets taken off. And then Gawain is like, okay, well, I'm going to like go out and rescue him. and he gets joined in this by an anonymous knight. And he's like, this new anonymous night is like, oh my gosh, we've got to get Guinevere, guys, guys, guys, we got to go get Gwen to it. And it's like, who are you? And it becomes clear that it's Sir Lancelot. And it's called the knight of the cart because there's a scene then when he's like, he's riding his horse so hard to go find Guinevere that his horse dies. And then he comes upon an evil dwarf.

There's a lot of them. Yeah, there's a lot of them in Arthuriana. Loads and loads in Arthuriana. And so he's like, basically, he's got this cart and he's like, I'll take you to Guinevere, but you got to get on the cart. And now you got to understand that like being on a cart is bad because in the first place, if you're a knight, you're on your own horse, right? But also being in a cart might indicate that you're a criminal who's being taken somewhere.

But it certainly means that you're common and it maybe means you're a criminal. Yeah. And so Lancelot's willingness to debase himself. is like, oh, that's quite sexy, right? He's willing to do anything for Guinevere, who he possibly doesn't even know. Then, like, Lancelot gets taken to a crossroads, and it's like, both of these roads will lead to Guinevere,

but one takes a much longer time, and the other one, you have to go over the sword bridge, which, you know, is bad. And Lancelot is like, no, I'll go over the sword bridge, which is like, it's like a big sword, you know, and you get all cut up. But anyway, like, you know, many adventures ensue. there's a big battle

like Guinevere finally gets back to court Lancelot kind of like goes back to court he kills everybody and like whatever right this then like leads to the fact that Guinevere and Lancelot shag about it and they do

quite a lot don't they and they do seem to be quite in love yeah this is they are presented as very much in love in all of these things where it kind of goes And for a while, they try to resist in a lot of the versions where they're like, we probably shouldn't shag. But then it's sort of like, Arthur goes out of town and they're like, what can I do?

You know, it's kind of a deal. And it's an interesting one because there is that tension, right? Where they are presented as being deeply in love, you know, Lancelot's willingness to put himself through all kinds of stress for her is a big deal. But then sometimes it gets portrayed as kind of a bad thing. So later on, when you start getting the Grail quests, it'll become a thing where Lancelot can't find the grail because he's Shagging Guinevere. And it is a sin.

Even if it's romantic, it's a sin, right? You might need to explain that because that sounded a little bit like he was too busy shagging Gwenevere to bother trying to find the Grail. Very good point. So it's like we have these things. There's the grail cycle and the post-grail cycle, which come out after. You got to understand that these guys are just making new Arthurianna. It's like Spider-Man movies, right?

They're like if one one bit gets made and they're like, okay, time for a new one. And then they retell them over and over again. So then you get this thing introduced kind of later on, which is called the grail cycle. And around that, you have a cluster of the fact that everyone starts to go look for the Holy Grail. The Holy Grail at this point in time, it isn't even decided that it's like the cup from the Last Supper or anything like that. It's something magic that kind of like grants you eternal life and it's holy. Eventually it becomes the cup. but in order to find it, you've got to be incredibly holy and pure.

And so they introduce a new cast of good knights. So again, like now Lancelot then becomes not the best night. And the new best night is Percival, who is a loser virgin. And like he's never shagged. So like eventually he's able to find the grail because he's pure and you can't tempt him with sexy ladies and he eventually ascends bodily into heaven. and he then becomes the best knight. And so there's a tension that's introduced in that between Percival, who is the ideal Christian,

who doesn't shag around and who's kind of focused on doing this holy thing, and Lancelot, who is a great knight. Everyone agrees that he's very, very talented, but he doesn't have the moral fortitude to not shag Guinevere. Right. So you do have this introduction of the fact like, oh, and it's probably bad, but everyone agrees that Lance and Guinevere are in love, one way or another. And what happens to them? How does this story play out?

Because it really depends who you're talking to and in what time. Like, it basically maps onto the same ending for pretty much everyone. But depending on who's telling it, is the angle being taken. But Lancelot and Guinevere don't, like, it all comes, it all goes to shit, doesn't it? Like, it all comes crashing down. They don't get a happy ending. Yeah, because it turns out you shouldn't shag your boss's wife. No.

like it basically is what it comes down to. And, you know, depending on what version you have, people are meaner to Guinevere in various ways. So Mallory, again, in The Morda, Arthur, it's like very, very kind of specific about how their affair basically leads to the downfall of Camelot. It's not just Mordred and everything. So basically, in that, Mordred and another one of the knights know that Guinevere and Lancelot are, well, they know Guinevere is shagging somebody, right? And they kind of like come up with a plan to catch like Lancelot, Shag and Guinevere. And Lancelot kind of like fights his way out of Guedivir's chambers after they like find them having shagged and runs away from court. And so as a part of this, he kills 11 people, two of whom are Gwain's brothers.

That's not good. Which isn't great. That's not good. Yeah. And Gwain and like Arthur. are basically forced to avenge this, right? And so they go pursue Lancelot and like his buddies while they're away. And in that absence, Mordred betrays his dad and takes over the kingdom.

So that means then that Arthur is forced to come back to take Camelot again. Gawain gets killed in battle with Mordred's men. And then like Merlin's big prophecy that Mordred is going to kill Arthur comes into play. Gawain's ghost comes back from the dead and is like Call a Truce. Like, you know, it's blockbuster stuff. And then eventually war breaks out. Mordred is killed, but King Arthur is fatally wounded. And Guinevere goes and joins a nunnery.

Of course she does. Of course she does. Yeah. Man. So what happens to Lancelot? Where does he go? Away? Just away. No nunnery equivalent for him.

Yeah. It's like, the equivalent for him, I guess, it's like, it's shameful. Okay. Right? Like, shouldn't have killed. all those people, you started a war. Sometimes he gets killed, often he's just like basically a cast out.

So he is shunned, is the deal. But, you know, Gwynnevere, by virtue of being the woman, is more at fault because, duh, right? Tennyson is vicious with Gwenevere. His final scene is her groveling on a convent floor with King Arthur shouting at her,

telling her that I was ever a virgin safe for thee, I think is what he says, which is absolutely horseshit because Tennyson should have read those legends. But Mallory, the medieval versions, they give her a bit of wiggle room. If I remember correctly, Mallory says,

I can't remember the exact phrase, but he pretty much signs it off as like, well, whatever you can say about her, she was a true lover. And that's, so it's kind of like, but at least she loved well.

He gives her that. Like, she's in a nunnery, presumably going like, oh, this is kind of shit. I didn't want it to end up like this. But he gives her that little bit of like, well, she was a good lover anyway. Because, you know, there is this kind of like understanding within the medieval context.

It's like, well, what's she supposed to do? Right? Like, if you fall in love with people, what are you supposed to do? Just like completely ignore that forever. So medieval people are a little more understanding. I mean, gratitude, at least is a downfall of Camelot and blah, blah, blah. And they're like, yeah, but I don't know, Lancelot was quite sexy though. Yeah.

You know, like kind of a deal. That's sort of fair enough, right? As far as they're concerned. I love that. Yeah. It's so fascinating to look into the origin of these myths because it has. has become so sanitized since the Victorians got their hands on it. And it's become the stuff of like children's stories and it's endlessly being retold.

But when you actually look into it, the sexuality and the behavior of the early medieval stories of this myth are so fucked up. But would they have been viewed as that within the context of the time, do you think? Or was this just something that they were just happy? This stuff happened. Yeah. I mean, I think with all of this, a lot of times what we are being presented with is kind of like a worst case scenario when things

goes wrong. And there are a lot of tragedies. Like so, for example, in the Arthiriana universe, like, you know, Tristan and Esau, that is a tragedy where it's like she's married to someone else. He marries like another Esauld and doesn't love her as much. Like, everybody dies. It's very sad. For the most part, there aren't really happy endings about love, except for Eric and Anita. Like, we get that one, right? But everything else is sort of like, yeah, in this world, love is a problem, right? Which is, I think, a fair reflection of what life at court really is. You know, very few people are in a marriage that they are in because of a romantic reason.

Love and sex are always going to be incredibly fraught within that. So it is a reflection of a particularized milieu that we can kind of understand. They don't think that some of the things that we think are incredibly messed up are messed up. like they don't see a problem with disguising yourself as someone else and shagging someone else's wife like it's kind of like that's just jolly japes that's just very clever yeah that's basically how it's played as like whoa ho ho ho ho like he got the better of him where you're like all right bro you sneaky thing you old dog you know and they don't think it's messed up like oh wow oh what do you what's he like you know kind of deal they they don't think it's a problem to kill some lady's

husband and then marry her they're like yeah all in a day's work you know like all of that That is fine. But even that they also have this real kind of sensibility that's like a little bit different between sex and love where, you know, like King Arzer has all these one night stands and everyone is like, yay, one night stand. Okay, whatever. And like, it's not a big romance. Gwynnevere and Lancelot, that's a big romance.

Tristan and Esol, that's a big romance. And they're usually tragic. So if you're genuinely in love as a true lover, it's probably going to end badly for you. And that's because they don't really have a whole. lot of options. You know, they've got, they've got like tons of privilege and no freedom. That's kind of the deal. Final question on the sex life of King Arthur and all his courtiers. Do you think that, because like, it's endlessly retold this story. It's movies and TV shows and books and endlessly being retold. Do you think that we are due a retelling of the King Arthur myth with all of the

nasty sex stuff left him? I would love it. You know, like, I think that we're ready for it now. I think we are because I think that we're at a point where we can deal with complex characters like if we've learned anything from kind of like the era of blockbuster television that we're living through we can deal with flawed characters now

we can understand that there's moral ambiguity and that weird things happen so I think that we could deal with it more we don't need knights to be unblemished perfect superheroes like the Victorians do we can be like that's weird

Yeah. You know about stuff, basically. So I think, you know, it would be a quite interesting thing to see. Like to see a really well done version of Arthuriana that puts these stories out there, kind of warts and all. And it's like, well, what are you going to do with that? And talks about the moral quandaries of like, yeah, and what happens when then you kill a bunch of babies, like, because you messed up.

These are interesting questions, right? And it's interesting to kind of like think about what that means for you. humanity. So our theory on I think often reflects the needs and desires of whoever is writing it. But perhaps we are at a place where we can be a bit more historically accurate about things because our society is able to do that and values that now, whereas Victorians didn't quite so much. Elder, you have been amazing to talk to it, as you always, always are. And I'd like to think that we are seriously upset a few people's childhood remembrances of the sword in the stone and visited the Camelot theme park, which definitely didn't have an incest roller coaster on there anywhere.

If people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? Oh, you know, you can find me also on the History Hit Network over at my podcast, Gone Medieval. My episodes are out every Tuesday. Amazing. Oftentimes I'm blogging about nonsense like this at going hyphen medieval.com. And also, if you want to, like, consider a little bit more about weird sex lives and what it means for women, you can check out my book, The Once in Future Sex, available wherever fine books are sold. Thank you so much. You have been fabulous.

You know, I'm only trying to live up to your example, Kate. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you to Elinor for joining me. I always have so much fun talking to her. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review, and subscribe wherever it is that you get to. your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you'd just fancy dropping by to say hello, you can email us at betwixt at history hit.com. We have got episodes on everything from sexy Santa to the women of the Haitian revolution, all coming your way. This podcast was

edited by Tom Delagie and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The Senior Producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again, Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society, a podcast by History hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.