Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Lube: A Slippery History

Episode Date: August 1, 2023

From the seaweed-strewn shores of Ancient China to the American army camps in the Middle East, lube has been on a long and slippery journey. Wherever it’s been derived from, the history and importance of this substance is as fascinating as its ingredients. What does its marketing tell us about our own prejudices? Did the Ancient Greeks really believe it was a contraceptive? And why is there such shame around the use of this wonderful product? Kate is joined by author Hallie Lieberman to find out. This episode was edited and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. If you're enjoying Betwixt please vote for us at the British Podcast Awards here. It would mean the world to us!Discover the past on History Hit with ad-free original podcasts and documentaries released weekly presented by world renowned historians like Kate Lister, Dan Snow, Suzannah Lipscomb, Lucy Worsley, Mary Beard and more.Get 50% off your first 3 months with code BETWIXT. Download the app on your smart TV or in the app store or sign up at historyhit.com/subscribe. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? We'll sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles.

Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, my lovely patricksters. It's me once again here to help you take care of yourselves. I am here with your fair do's warning. Hey Kate, what is a fair do's warning? Well, the fair do's warning is the warning that we give at the top of each show to make sure that you know that this is an adult podcast spoken by adults

to other adults in an adultery way about a range of adult subjects. And you should be an adult too. And frankly, if you persist with listening to this absolute madness, then you really have nobody else but yourself to blame, because fair-doos, you were warned. We're in the year 500 BCE, in China by the coast. Hmm, nice. We are watching a woman harvest some red seaweed with a sharp blade.

The seaweed will later be boiled up to create a slippery, jelly-like substance, called Karaginon. Karaginan is a useful ingredient. for cooking, used almost like a gelatin, and it can also be used as a body moisturiser. But its slippery properties make it perfect for something else. Yep, you've guessed it. We are watching the creation of some ancient lube. And, fun fact, centuries later, Carajian is still used in some sexual lubricants and condoms today.

Clever, huh? So, lube up, folks. We are sliding betwixt the sheets today. to find out more about this slippery history. What do you look for a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect confidence of whatever my boss needs

by just turning it up and pushing the funny. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, what beautiful time. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Terry. Welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society. With me, Kate Lister. For as long as humans have been humble,

there has been lubricants to help them do it. From olive oil to smash yams to the very first petroleum jelly. If it's slippery, it's the solution. But what were the earliest lubs made of? And when did they start being marketed as sexual aids? It's actually more recent than you might think. Today, we are joined once again by historian Hallie Lieberman who is going to answer these questions and more.

But before we get to it, lovely betwixters, I have a little favour to ask you. Think of it as a lubricant to this episode. We would just love it if you would vote for us for the Listener's Choice Award at the British Podcast Awards. If you follow the link in the show notes, it would mean the absolute world to us. I bet you've already voted.

I bet you've already done it. You're saying, Kate, we've already voted. Don't even worry about it. For anyone else there that hasn't, get voting. I think we can do it this year. Right. Let's get back to the show. And welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets.

I'm only talking to Hallie Lieberman. Hello, Hallie. Hello, Kate. I'm so happy to be on here. It's so much fun talking to you last time about sex toys. Yeah. That was one of our most listened episodes, that one. People absolutely loved it.

What? That is awesome. I love hearing that. Yeah, that you bring the crowds with you. You are what the people want. So we thought we'd get you. back and talk to you about the history of lube. Oh my god. Loub is like, you know, sex toys cousin who's underappreciated. I had never thought about the history of

loop until my producers said, we're going to get Hallie back on. She wants to talk about Loub. How did you end up talking on researching Loub? Where is this? Is this just like you you're just done with sex toys and kind of Loub is sex toy adjacent? Yeah, Loub is sex toy adjacent. And people like don't really, it's less sexy than sex toys. So there's kind of like less work around it, but it is so kind of fascinating and weird and gendered and it's still not normalized. That's my argument. No, no, that is very true. It's still, you raise a few eyebrows going down to the corner shop to buy a pint of milk and a bottle of lube. People still look at you. Like, you've done something particularly weird if you do that. Yeah, exactly.

Like you're having butt sex or your vagina is dysfunctional or whatever, but not just that it's, you're having a fun Saturday night. You got your milk, you got your lube, you got your cereal. Right. What else do you need quite frankly? Yeah, yeah. I mean, when I think about it, and I have been thinking about it since I knew we were going to get you back on to talk about this, Loub, like you said, it's got, it's very

stigmatized. Like people don't like to talk about very much, but it's so important to sex and it can be so much fun. And of course, people have always. needed it. Of course they have. Like, it must have a really ancient history. It does have an ancient history. Like, yeah, it's not like just modern people suddenly needed loop. No, it's not like a modern people when actually, we can improve this. Let's, let's do something. Yeah. Like, actually, let's make sex a little bit more fun. No, our ancestors were doing this as well. So the loop, like,

goes back to about 600 BC. Jesus. Wow. Cool. Yes. And the crazy thing is, so this This was Japan, China, in Korea, they boiled red seaweed to produce this slick liquid called a Karajan, which I probably pronouncing wrong. But what's really cool about this, aside from they were, you know, making this effort, making loob that it's this old, is that some research has shown that they can prevent HPV, this kind of loob. So our ancestors might have known something we did in a long time ago. And this, there's been a lot of research on this recently.

No way. Lube from seed. Yes. Yeah. And people are selling seaweed loop. I checked. Like they're still selling this, which is great. Like as natural and it seems new and it's like really like thousands of years old.

Is that because seaweed is kind of slimy? Is that the thing? I think so. Yeah. I mean, it works. You know, it's kind of like nature's natural. Nature's loop. Yeah.

Yeah. Nature's loop. I mean, like when you're swimming in the ocean, you don't think. wow, I'd really want to like take this piece of seaweed and like put it in my vagina. But yeah. You've never been to muggle. But it makes sense when you think about it. It's like, oh yeah.

It makes perfect sense. When they're writing about this in sort of like ancient China and Japan and places, what are the text? Are they actually identifying it as a lubricant? Like it's for a sexual use? Yeah, they're mentioning it for a sexual use. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, like, too much about the text other than scholars have identified that it was discussed. But yeah, people who know this area say, yeah, this was what was being used.

Seweed lube. Because my first thought when I was thinking of, what would you use as a lube in, like, the ancient world? And my first thought was olive oil. That was the first thing that I thought. And that's the, like, next thing that was used. So that was used in ancient Greek times. There are texts. Actually, Aristotle talks about this in a text and says it could also be used as a contraceptive. And I was talking to my boyfriend about that. I'm like, would that work? Not that like we're going to use that as a contracept. No. Like the next podcast will be like, I have a baby now. It didn't work. Spoiler alert. But all oil makes sense as a lube. They also used it on leather dildos. So that was interesting. I was reading some things that scholars said. that when you see like little containers of olive oil in like etchings and images from the time,

you think of it differently. You know, now you think it's like they're really carrying their lube around. It would be great if we brought that back and normalized it. I think maybe like olive oil was like the coconut oil of its day, you know, like it was just used for everything. Yeah. And it's funny you bring up coconut oil because Betty Dodson, who, you know, normalized masturbation for the feminist movement. She was so into coconut oil. When I interviewed her...

Coconut oil. Yeah. She said, like, that's what you need to get. She was still, you know, into it. It's funny how we prioritize some oils, isn't it? Like, coconut oil and olive oil sound quite sexy. But, like, vegetable oil, sunflower oil, if someone, like, whipped that out, you just like, hang on.

Hang on a moment. Well, yeah, I know. Sunflower oil is not sexy. I don't think of vegetable oil sexy. But they were selling vegetable oil. in sex toy catalogs. No way. In 70s.

And it was sold, and I always do this gesture without really profiting. Fuck. I don't know why I'm surprised that because, you know, that makes sense why you do that. But it's just the idea of like, you know, a bottle of like crisp and dry from the local supermarket being used to...

Wow. Okay. So olive oil is being used in the ancient world. Do we know the type of sex that it was being used for? Is it anal sex or is it like, what's it being? Do we have any reference? records of that? So like we have records that it was used for dildos, but for vaginal sex, we know that

it was recommended. Aristotle recommended it for vaginal sex. I haven't seen stuff that doesn't mean it doesn't exist for anal sex, but I'm sure it was. I'm sure it was. I mean, that makes sense. Trying to do that particular sex act with no lubrication at all, that's not much fun, is it? No, and I have seen warnings today, like where people are like, oh, the rectum is not self-lubricating, people are so warning it. And it's like, okay, I guess we still need that warning. I guess we probably do, don't we? Well, maybe it doesn't surprise me so much that the ancient Greeks were messed around with this, because they were a kinky bunch. Do we have kind of like evidence from a little bit later on than that? What is lube's journey from here? It's done seaweed,

and it's done olive oil, and Aristotle had a weird moment with it. But then where do we go with our historical lube journey? Yeah, so we go to this sticky substance from grated yam, This is a Japanese culture, which is like now made into soup. And I'm not going to try to pronounce this because I'm going to pronounce it wrong. But they oiled animal intestine condoms with it. Yeah, and now like you look up this substance. I was like, let me see if they're still making lube out of this. And it was just like, here's how to make this yam soup.

And I'm like, oh, God. I've had yam soup. You have? Was I eaten a bowl of lube? Oh, yes. Probably. You should have saved some in a doggie back. Had I but known?

Yeah. Oh, no. So do we have any understanding of what they were doing to yams to make it into lube? So it was grated yams and then they were boiled and liquefied. So, you know, I think they're different than kind of the yams, at least in the U.S. that are like sweet potatoes. I think that you might have to do some real historical archaeology here, Halley, and we might have to like try and make it.

Oh, my God. You know, like those TikTokers. that recreate historical recipes. You could recreate historical loob. That would be so great. Now, I would love to do that. I wouldn't want to use it because I'd probably have bacterial vaginosis, like 24-7.

Oh, God, yes. But I love... You can't be putting yams in your hoo-ha. That's just a terrible... Yeah. But it would be great to recreate them and then taste test them. Yeah. You could slippery test them.

You can, like, run them on the back of your hands and sort of see what kind of lube is this. And then if it didn't work, you've got a lovely soup. That's great. When you have a dinner party. Yeah, bring your friends over and be like, well, this is what this was intended for. Yeah. What I'm kind of hearing from this is like this is like an industry because like to do that,

to get yams on seaweed and turn them into lube for a specific thing, that's not the same as like reaching for the olive oil that was in the kitchen anyway. This is like actually the process of turning it into loop suggests that there was an industry here and there was a demand for it and it was quite important. Yeah, exactly. You know, this isn't the. mass market because of the time period industry we have today. But yes, this was like a thing, people were desiring, we're seeking out, we're making. You're right. It wasn't just like,

oh, I'm horny. I need something slippery. Let me get something. It was like, let's prepare. And that's like kind of a shift. It was like we're preparing the substance for the specific purpose. Wow. But what was that film, The Last Tango in Paris, where they famously used butter as a lube? Yes. That's right. Oh, I wouldn't fancy that one too much. No, given a choice, I think I'd probably go with the seaweed. Yeah, and you're on a beach. Like, I think they were on a beach when that happened. Absolutely. Okay, so we've got, like, various oils and things being turned into lubricants. People are very creative. But, like, when do we get to, like, sort of lobes that we would recognize today? I suppose, like, oil-based

lube. So the clove oil used for anal sex. Clove oil. 1600s, because of pain killing and, like, muscle relieving properties. We wouldn't recognize this today, but it's similar to anales that's sold today with lydicane in it. I thought it'd be a bit stingy that. I don't want to put clove oil in my anus. I'm not interested in doing that. No, it would make it quite festive. Yeah, but for Christmas, like try it. Yeah. So, okay, that's an option as well. What I think about when I think a loop. Vaseline. That's like your standard one, isn't it? Where does Vaseline come from? So Vaseline

1870s, it's patented. Petroleum. 1870s? Yes. So it's old. It wasn't sold as a lube. It's petroleum jelly. You put it on cuts. You know, use it for health purposes, which a lot of the lubs, like later in the history, were for medical uses. And then consumers repurpose them

for... sexual purposes and Vaseline is one of those. Vaseline continued to be sold in sex toy catalogs in the 1970s, in the 1980s. It's recommended by doctors. You see it in medical text where they're like, okay, you know, tell your patient to use Vaseline during intercourse. Yeah, so that's the first one. And then right after Vaseline is K-Y jelly, in which I think most people would recommend. What was it used for medically? Was it medically used for in certain things? because like you said you put it on cuts, works as like a plaster? Yeah, yeah, it was like that.

Like it was almost like keeping a wound wet, you know? Right. Okay, yeah. See, I learned so much with you. Right, okay, so KY jelly. Tell me the origin story of KY jelly. Yeah, so it was introduced in a pharmaceutical company in New York City. So it was a medical product.

It's biologically inert, which meant it was good for being used in the body. So this is 1904, and it was great. Glistrin and hydroethylosellulose, which I'm not exactly sure what that cellulose stuff is, but like right after it was introduced. So they talk about using it for catheters and different things for medical treatments. But I found this journal article, the medical sentinel, recommending using it during coitus. And it says, actually, it mentions Vaseline, throws Vaseline under the bus, says Vaseline is not advisable.

Does it say why? Yes, it says if it be used in bacteria are deposited in the vagina, they cannot be washed out but are covered. I love, I want to read the sentence because it's great, but are covered by the Vaseline and husbanded to do future damage to the woman or to be rubbed into the meatus of the next victim. Oh my God. It's just some kind of weird horror show.

Okay, yeah, so Vaseline's not getting a good rep there. I'm really surprised by how early this is. I thought that we'd be talking like 1980s, but it's 100 years before that. Yes, yes. More than. It's definitely like a lot earlier than you would expect. But there is one thing about Vaseline. So you do have people mentioning K.Y. Jelly for sex.

And you have doctors criticizing Vaseline, but then you also have some doctors' recommendations. recommending Vaseline, and this is disturbing to me. So this is 1910, one doctor, but then other doctors agreed later, recommended mixing cocaine with Vaseline. Halley, that, you've just made that up. That, what? Why? And this is the Lancet, the big medical journal.

They recommend it for vaginismus, where, like, the vagina, like, closes up in Titans during sex, and while using glass dilators to, you know, open up your vagina and get it ready for sex. And it's like that is so disturbing. But then seven years later in 1917, this Dr. William J. Robinson suggests Vaseline and cocaine again for vaginismis. And he also suggested it for the first time women have sex. Jesus Christ. Yeah. It's like here, you know, wedding night, whatever.

Let's get out the cocaine and Vaseline mixture. so you can't feel anything. I don't even know. It's crazy. Because they used to use cocaine for dental work, didn't they? Because it's numbing. It's a painkiller. Is that what they're thinking of here?

I mean, we should say, please, nobody try this at home. It's just insanity. Yeah, you're absolutely right. So this doctor said it will facilitate the introduction of the member and save the bride a good deal of pain. Oh, my God. Wow. It's pretty crazy. And it's like, you know, you should know what's going on with your body.

You don't want to numb everything because you could hurt yourself. So, yeah, it's pretty insane. That is. I don't know if I'm going to be able to move past that, but I'm going to have it to be cocaine lube. Oh, my God. All right. So, like, how does it fare when we get into the 20th? And at this time, so people are talking about it as being used for sex,

but they seem to be talking about it as in, like, it's a solution to a problem. Like, you use lube when you're having sex for the first time. You use lube to insert something that's going to pay. Like, is anyone at this point talking about it actually makes sex more fun? Is that part of the conversation? No, and it's really frustrating to me. It is not part of the conversation. The first time, and this is not even to make sex more fun,

but the first time we have lube, like, to not solve, like, a quote-unquote problem for a woman or a problem for, like, having anal sex is when we get lubricated condoms. And this is. This is 1957 Durex introduces them. And the weird thing to me about this is like, okay, we know you should have lube on a condom to make sex better. Why don't we also say, hey, if your dick doesn't have a condom on it, you should use loop too. But no, we don't make that argument. I mean, and actually, my reasoning for this or why I think this is is because it's considered unnatural.

Like, women are supposed to be aroused. So there's a shame thing. That's interesting. I always thought that the stigma around it is like just because it's sex and we're not okay with that. But actually, is that what we're talking about here is that there's like a shame that if you need this, you've somehow failed to either get turned on or to turn your woman on. Exactly. That's what I think, because that's kind of the vibe I get, because it's really feminist who first started talking about lube as like, you should just use it. It makes sex feel better. I do think the male ego is getting involved in why, you know, lube isn't more normalized. And it's like, oh, well, we just use it for a problem. Or if you need lube, you have a problem. But after this, you start seeing like flavored lube. God, where did slavoured lube come from? Whose idea was that? I don't know the history of the company that did this, but what's so interesting, when you start seeing Loub for pleasure, it's like early 1970s, and you see it in sex toy catalogs. And so it's like if Louba's for pleasure, then we're going to make it fun flavors like candy. And this pleasure test, which is a sex toy company in the U.S. in their catalog, they had all these different characters. And one was Tony, a construction worker, and a jockstrap.

And he has a dick in one hand and lube in the other. And there's this whole backstory about Tony. But it was like, okay, this is normal for him. He's a construction worker. He carries around a thing of lube. As you do. And a massive dick. But then also it mentioned that he likes flavored lube.

Dick likes wild licorice flavored lube. And it says, can be used to flavor everything from tits to toes. Who needs to lube their toes? What? I know, I know. That was a bit extreme, and I imagine someone fully covered in this licorice. Yes, just turned up head to toe, just slippery like a giant eel, but flavored with licorice. Yeah, oh, it doesn't seem very attractive, but, and they had all these different flavors.

They had pineapple, grape, strawberry, orange. They mentioned all these flavors, and, you know, there's been a backlash against these flavors where people, like, I want a dick to smell like Dick, or taste like Dick. Same with a vagina. But at the time, it was like it was the 70s. It was exciting. This company also sold water beds. It was like, yeah. I mean, I don't want my waterbed covered in, you know, pineapple.

I'll be back with Hallie and Loub after this short break. Hey, I'm Don Wildman. And on American History Hit, my expert guests and I journey across the nation and through the years to uncover the stories that have made the United States. From first flight to first ladies, from stitching the star spanking. banner to striking gold in California to shooting for the moon with Apollo. We've got you covered.

Catch new episodes of American History Hit, a podcast by History Hit, every Monday and Thursday wherever you get your podcasts. Get to the point where they're marketed for gay sex, because obviously, Loub plays quite a crucial part in some expressions of gay sex. Yeah, so this catalog in the 1970s, so this was a gay pleasure chest was mainly for gay men, so a lot of this was for, and I should have perhaps, a lot of that was for gay sex. So if you see in like the 60s and 70s, you'll see all these ads for lubricant like elbow grease, which is for fifting and for, and they have these man

names like that in the back of the advocate and other gay magazines. So you see open advertisements for that. You see some lube ads, not as much in Playboy, but in Penthouse and some more like racy magazines for men and for women like in play girl you see some lube ads. So you do see some of this anal loob. The first mention of anal ease, which I mentioned earlier in the podcast with Ben Zicane I found was in 1973. Wow. And this was in a sex toy catalog. And that copy, how they described it, was so ugh to me. But anyway, so it said no longer need your loved ones shriek in anguish when it is necessary to introduce large objects into the anal opening. Oh my God.

Well, they went big and did not go home. That's what marketing meeting produced that? I know. I know. It's like, what the hell and like loved ones shrieking with angelo? I don't even know. It's too much. It's like, have you been assaulting your loved ones?

Would you like them to be quieter during the process than we have got? Oh, my God. Fucked up, yeah. But what's interesting at this point, around this time, Alex Comfort, Joy of Sex, it's his best-selling sex manual. And he says the best sexual lubricant is saliva. I don't agree with that. You don't get enough.

It doesn't last long enough. It's not pineapple flavor. Yeah. No, I don't know. It dries out. I don't agree. He was a hippie. I mean, like, Joy of Sex has just, you know, hairy, naked people having sex.

They love each. I mean, love isn't just for hippies, but... Spitt. Yeah, and then he says, unless you're having anal sex and you could use petroleum jelly... Oh. And Vaseline. But this is the thing that disturbed me about Alice Comfort's advice.

He suggested using honey. See, I think that this is really... Because this ties back to your earlier point, and I'd never thought of this before, about the gendered marketing of lube. They're like, if you two guys fucking, then of course you'll need proper loob. Of course you will.

because the anus doesn't actually produce lube. But if you're a woman, then you just need a little spit and polish and you'll be fucking good to go. Or maybe a dab of honey, because we'll just marinate the vagina now in honey. Is that what that is, do you think? It's like that men get, what was it, elbow grease and manly tool stuff to make people scream less. And women get a quick, and you're good to go, love.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it is definitely, like, especially in a patriarchal culture, it's definitely this idea that like if we're going to normalize lube, we're going to normalize it for men, for, you know, man-on-man activity. I mean, obviously there's homophobia. There's all sorts of things. But it is so gendered as like, it's so masculine to, you know,

use this kind of lube. And for women, the delicate creatures that they are, oh, they don't need any lube. They should be producing it. If they're not, they're frigid, you know. and if you really can't get the dick in, then add some cocaine, mix it. You know, it's like that kind of thing. Yeah.

It's really disturbing. I've never thought of that before. Yeah, until I looked into this stuff, I didn't really either. And you see that marketing, even today, there's a lube in the U.S., and I think it's sold in the UK, called gun oil. Gun oil. Wow. Okay. Yeah, it comes in a package that looks like a bullet.

This is very macho loom. It is. And it was invented by a military guy, a former Marine, of course. Of course. Who used to masturbate with actual gun oil during the Iraq War. And he was a platoon commander. And his platoon, he, like, told them about this. And they created, like, a masturbation shack because they're in the middle of nowhere in Saudi Arabia.

And he claims, and they would, like, hang their ammunition, their ammo bucket outside to let other people know they were jacking. off in there with their gunna oil. And he claims this is like kept morale going because there's nothing else. They were in the middle of the desert. Holy shit. Now there's a business plan. How macho is that though? Like how macho is that product?

It's not enough to just be like, right, we just want to have good sex. It's like, yeah, it comes from the war in Iraq when soldiers used to whack themselves off when fighting the terrorists. I know. It's so, so macho. And the funny thing, too, is like I was looking, and I like it. It's good loop. eye-owness, like full disclosure.

But if you look at the actual logo, you see bullet holes in it. And it's like you're sticking this like in your vagina and your butt. Like I don't want like a bullet in my butt. But the best thing is he also later made lube for women. I was just going to ask you, are there lubs for women? Yes. And this same company and they were called pink. Of course.

Of course they were. And they just had a pink top to them. Pink for girls. Pink for girls. So we have it like it's normalized for gay men more than for women. But what was funny, so we have our bodies ourselves saying that it's normal for women not to have enough lubrication. That was like the er text of loop for women. It was like you guys, this text that was very popular teaching women about their sexuality,

it said it's normal and you need it. And after that, 1975, research showed over half of KY jelly sales were for women to prove their sex lives. I mean, lube is like chocolate fudge on ice cream. It's like more is amazing. It doesn't matter if you're producing your own and you're fucking squirting away like the Trevershey fountain. It's like more is better. More lube. Yeah, absolutely.

And it's like so sad to me that there was like this shame and buying lube, even though it could bring joy and pleasure. but it goes to the same sex toy thing. It's for women's sexual pleasure, you know, that kind of thing. In between that period in the 80s, we get Astroglide. Have you heard of Astroglide? It was invented by a young rocket scientist.

Are these stories true? Or is this just like part of the marketing of like, yeah, it's invented by an astronaut and yeah, it's invented by a marine. And is this true? Yeah, so the Astroglide story, that's what they tell. The gun oil story, I watched the whole video.

It showed him pictures of his platoon. Okay. But that became a big, big brand. It's still a big brand today. So we get Astroglyde, and that's told as a gynecological lubricant. Similar to natural secretions, contains no petroleum. It's kind of normalizing lube a little more for women during sex. But when you get the age year in the 1990s, it becomes a big issue because people are using lube on conum.

thinking they're being safer, you know, like this will be, the condom will be less likely to break. And that's true, but only if you're using the right lube. Vaseline and other oils were breaking down the condoms and people were using that. And actually, the Sex Information and Education Council of the U.S. does a campaign to let the public know they should not use oil-based lobes. And that's still true today, isn't it? Oil-based looms can break condoms apart. Yeah, latex condoms. And so, you know, it was pretty crazy and it got really dark. Like there's this newspaper article, 1998, sexual lubricants may save lives.

Confusion may kill. And it was like, whoa. Wow. Yeah. And so you have lube like during AIDS era, you have lube being talked about more in reference to condoms. But then you also have the fear. It's like, we need to get the right lube.

And again, lube is like, it'll help prevent disease. Not necessarily it's going to make sex more fun. But right after that, you had the introduction of Viagra. Of course. Viagra. Yes. Right. Tell me about what Viagra did to lose. Well, so, you know, Viagra comes out super popular. And then all these women whose husbands were impotent until this point, suddenly their husbands have, you know, 24-7 hard-ons or whatever,

to fuck, they're, you know, having sex with them. They're like, ah, you know, I'm in pain. I haven't had sex for, you know, 15 years. And they start asking for lube. And lube and vaginal moisturizer are recommended. And so we have this conversation about lube and lube sales increase because of Iagra. But again, it's related to menopause. It was like, oh, these are older women, dry vaginas. We still don't transfer it to Just everyone should be using Lou. There's still that kind of thing. I've been thinking about this a lot recently with Viagra,

because I've been contributed to a couple of documentaries on it. And I've really thought about it. It's great and it did amazing things. But I often think about the women in this equation, or at least the people that these guys were having sex with, that now suddenly they've got this massive stonking hard on and isn't that great? And isn't that amazing?

Isn't that fabulous? But there's very, very little voice being spoken from the people that are now expected to have sex with them. And I think that that in itself, I find it quite troubling because it's like, yeah, they can have sex. But like, where's the same consideration for their partners? And like that was very, very quiet on that. And there's this like horrible, almost like unspoken assumption of like, well, then they're going to go and find sex with a younger woman who can, who can keep up with them and do all these amazing things. And there were biagra divorces that happened as well.

Yeah, because, well, like, guys that suddenly, you know, got this stonking. hard on back and announced that now they felt that they should go and play the field. And obviously, loads of 21-year-old women would be falling at their feet to have sex with them, obviously. Of course they would. Like, that really happens. I'm not surprised that it had a massive impact on lube sales. Yeah, yeah. Wow. I did not know about Viagra divorces. But like, yeah, that makes sense. And then the whole lube thing and, oh, I'm going to get like a younger woman who's naturally lubricated. It's all got to be natural, even though my erection. is not natural.

Is not. God. I mean, yeah, that's a whole thing. It's like Viagra gets talked about like it's this fucking like, oh my God, it's the best thing that ever, ever, ever happened ever. And I'm in every documentary, I've been on about it, they asked me what would be the female Viagra? And it's such a difficult question to answer.

But like things like Loub is actually very, very important for women or HRT. But that doesn't get as much presses. Oh, my God, Viagra. Yeah. You know, I was thinking that it was interesting. that, you know, what is the female Viagra? I was thinking about this as I was researching Loub, and I was thinking, Lou, it's not as sexy because it's not as technologically, you know, advanced, but it's lubrication. I mean, women get erections as well, but lubrication is a part of

women's arousal process. So it totally makes sense that loop is at least one piece of the puzzle for female Viagra and the fact that it's been stigmatized and still isn't normalized. I mean, Viagra, that was 25 years ago now. And lube were only starting to normalize it somewhat. So when Viagra is released 1998, you see more lube in drugstores. Probably because women are like, I need to fucking go get this lube because of my husband, you know, whatever. But yeah, you start seeing lube, like, more easy to access. And you see the lube aisle expanding.

Trojan starts selling all these flavor lube. And, you know, passion berry, jell. They're all these, like, it's interesting. Like, there's one that was like non-fat, decaf, coffee creamer lube. And it's like, what? Again, it's all like trying to stop sex, tasting like sex, isn't it? Well, exactly. And, you know, some of it, actually, there was this vice article recently.

Someone wrote about this butterscotch lube and they said it actually is so delicious. I put it on ice cream. Like that. But, yeah, they had like all these flavors. And K.Y. starts to come out with these different kind of lube as well, like different flavors making less metaclyse. So you really do see lube like right after Viagra in the early 2000s, the category kind of explodes, but you still see the shame. Like it's still there was not this message that

everyone should use lube. It was like either you want a dick to or vagina to taste differently or you have a medical problem or whatever or you're having anal sex. It was not. just like everyone to use loop, which should be the message. That should be the message. And where are we up to today with with lube marketing? So I was doing some research, like knowing I was going to talk to you and I had a look around my local chemists. And I noticed that what we've got now as well is massage oil slash lobe. That's like quite a nice niche marketing because it's like it's not quite lube. You might be massaging. It could be completely innocent, but also if you wanted to. Yeah. Yeah. I mean the massage, absolutely. Like, I mean,

mean, it's like with sex toys too. Like anytime you can say this could possibly be used for something other than penetrative sex or, you know, any sort of sexual thing that it normalizes it more. So you have the massage oil lube. You had like the KY lube that were like, okay, this is just a lube. Like, we're not going to say what it's for. But like today, what kind of lubs do we have? Like, what is the lube field? Well, the kind of cool thing I think is that, we have all the lubs you saw in specialty sex toy stores, you see a lot of those brands in drugstores. You have, you know, silicone lube. Like, it's been around for a long time.

Some of my research was like been around since 1900. I don't think it was used for sex. But that's a big one now, although you can't use it with certain silicone toys. But that used to be something that was really hard to get in the drugstore. And now you can get that. but you have all these flavors. You have insane flavors. It's like lube companies, it's like now that we have good, you know, water-based and silicone lubs,

it's like we just have to come up with all these flavors. Or we've perfected lube to some extent we change the packaging. So they are marketing more towards women with packaging, making lube look like perfume bottles. It does look like perfume bottles. It does. And it kind of looks like perfume bottles or like toys, like little additions, little. extra things you might want to play with where you're having sex instead of actually

you should be using this even if you are well lubricated on your own because it just makes sex more pleasurable, more fun and just better and it doesn't need to be flavoured like a bonbon for that to happen. Well, exactly and so when feminists were

really the ones to kind of normalise, just like they were for sex toys, normalize lube or try to, and one of the things they promoted was slippery stuff. And And that loop has been around for at least 25 years. And the good vibrations and other companies, when they saw it in the catalog, they were like, this is just like you.

It's just like more of it. So you see that kind of marketing, more women-focused, a sex toy company ads. And then for male-focused, it was like, this is manly. Here's an elbow. Like, we use this during the Iraq war, like that kind of thing. And so it's just completely. And then for women, it's like, yeah, you're like, this will make sex more fun. You know, they're trying to normalize it, which is great, which is.

what we should do, but I don't think that has happened yet. You've been amazing to talk to about this today. And my final question, and I think I know what it's going to be, but what is your message about Loub to get out to the general public, the Holly Liebman Public Service announcement when it comes to Loub? What do you want people to do? Everyone should go out and buy Loub now. You should always have lube on hand.

It makes sex more fun. Have different kinds, though, too. Have a water-based lube so that you can use it with silicone toys. Have a silicone lube. That's my favorite wet brand lube. I always have a gun oil is great. Have it. It's not stigmatized.

If any person tells you, oh, well, this means you aren't turned on enough. This means you're not aroused enough. Tell them to fuck off because you're just making sex more fun. It has nothing to do with their ego and how aroused or your body. I mean, one, in our bodies ourselves, they're like, it takes the pressure off. You know, some women get nervous during sex, and then if they're not lubricated enough, they think that their partner is judging them and they all get all up in their head. It's like a man taking Viagra, like to not have to worry that he may not get a heart on.

It's the same thing. Like, women should just have it so they can relax and enjoy sex. Men as well, have lube around. You know, you're straight. gay doesn't matter. You're paying. You got to have it. We all need our lube.

It should be supplied by the government. You should just get it in the mail when you turn 18. Hallie for president, I vote for you. You have been so much fun. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? So my website, which is my name, hally Lieberman.com, and Twitter, Instagram, my full name as well. I'm always writing articles, writing one on. people with a fetish for conservative Republicans.

Well, we will need to get you back on for that. My God. Oh, Hallie, you have been an absolute joy and a treat. Thank you so much for talking to me about this today. Thank you so much for having me on. It was so fun. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you to Hallie for joining me.

And if you enjoyed listening to Hallie, why not scroll back to our earlier episode where she talked to us about the history of sex toys? And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like review and subscribe wherever it is that you get your podcasts. This podcast was edited and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.

Join me again betwixt the sheets, The History of Sex Scandal in Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.