Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Medieval Chastity Belts: History Unlocked

Episode Date: October 1, 2024

Sexual purity was hugely importance in the medieval world, especially for women.How did chastity work in practice? Why was it so important? And was the infamous chastity belt really used?Joining Kate today is friend of the show and co-host of our sister podcast, Gone Medieval, Eleanor Janega, to help us unlock the mysteries of Medieval chastity once and for all. This podcast was edited and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Sign here for up to 50% for 3 months using code BETWIXTYou can take part in our listener survey here.Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. I'm here, you're here, the producers are here, and the lawyers are here, which is why I have to tell you that this is an adult podcast,

spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adultery way, covering a range of adult subjects, and you should be an adult too. And now you can't get mad, because fair do's, we did warn you, right on with the show. One mention of medieval chastity,

and we all know, what image first leaps to mind. The chastity belt, right? That big, clunky, iron pair of knickers with a padlock that was supposed to prevent anybody from having any kind of fun. Well, women from having any kind of fun. And as a historian, there are a few tintsy-weensy issues with this one.

Firstly, what if they needed the toilet? The idea was supposed to be that you strapped your wife into this chastity belt for as long as you were fighting the Crusades, that's a long time. Like, that could be years and what? Your poor wife hasn't been able to go at the toilet properly for years. I mean, I know it's supposed to protect against chastity, and I imagine that would absolutely do the trick.

But really? I just don't think that this is feasible. So let's get our padlocks at the ready betwixters and find out more. What do you look for a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning enough and pushing the button. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

Goodness, for a beautiful time. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Derry. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society. With me, K. Lister. Sexuality is a very powerful thing. You do not need to tell me this, I do not need to tell you this. We are all aware. But you know what else is powerful withholding sex?

That can be even more powerful than the act itself. In fact, there are many kink communities out there today who will testify to this particular fact. But we're going to go back to the medieval period today. A point in our history when the concept of sexual purity, chastity and virginity were really in force and sadly a big selling point on the marriage market for women. Joining me today is longtime friend of the show and co-host of our sister podcast Gone Medieval,

Eleanor Janaga, who is going to help us unlock, hey, the mysteries of the medieval Chastity Belt once and for all. And if you'd like to explore more episodes about sexuality in this period, then why not jump back to our other betwixt episodes, such as what was sex like in medieval times, or medieval life during plague and war? Just scroll back on the feed to have a listen. How was Chastity thought of in the medieval book?

period. How was it thought of even before then? And was there ever any such thing as a chastity belt? All right, betwixters, I am ready to find out if you are. Now, and welcome back to betwixta sheets. It's my mum's favourite. It's Ellen Yannigan. Okay, well, that is, I think that's one of the first times I've ever been a month's favorite. Every time you're on the show, she messages, she absolutely loves listening to you. I'm going to get a ribbon that says like a little sash for beauty queens. Mum's favorite. Yes.

Mom's favorite. Honestly, she loves you. She thinks you're absolutely amazing. So I'm very, very pleased that you're back, and she will definitely be pleased that you are back. How are you doing? I'm very well. The sun is shining. The flowers are blooming, and I'm ready to talk about chastity.

You know, yelling about sex. What can I say? Right. It's more than a job. It's a passion cake. It is, isn't it? And I suppose chastity is, it's kind of medieval chastity, it's more the talking about not having sex.

Quite so, quite so. They're the real thing about it. I mean, it's not true that the Middle Ages came up with this idea of virginity and chastity. You can trace that. There's always been a thing about it. But something seems to happen in the Middle Ages where it really becomes invoked. Yeah, I mean, I think that the issue is kind of part of how medieval society is structured. Right. So, and you're right. Medieval chastity is just a new and more flavorful version of the original recipe of antique chastity.

Right. It's an upgrade. Yeah. And this has existed, just to be clear, even before Christianity was in vogue. So, like, it's a big thing for the ancients as well because being chased shows that you're a manly man. It's always men in it. It shows that you're a manly man who's overcome the baser impulses of women who, are horny, right? And you're not like a gross woman who likes sex. You're a manly man who thinks about the gods and goes, hmm, all the time, right? Yeah. So like Aristotle is always on about how you shouldn't have too much sex, stuff like that. Yeah. But then when you hit the Christian period and like the Lake Antique period, you get your boys, St. Augustine and St. Jerome.

And they have a whole lot to say about how sex is really bad, which is in St. Augustine's case highly ironic because he spends several years as a fuck boy. Yeah, he was really slutty. Mm-hmm. Tell us what he was up to. Yeah, he's a bycon in the first place. You know, St. Augustine's a bicon before he converts. He has boyfriends whom's team warms. He's got concubines. He does like the whole nine yards. But then eventually he converts to Christianity and he decides he's done with all that. And he spends a lot of time writing about how sex is very bad finger wag as a result of that. So this is all kind of linked to the thing that I yell about every time I come on the show, which is the idea that the fall of man, when Eve eats from the fruit of the tree of

knowledge, is asexual sin. So she eats through the tree of knowledge and she becomes aware of the fact that she is naked and that makes her horny. Right. And that's her problem right there. And Augustine is like, well, if we hadn't fallen from grace and we hadn't fallen out of God's favor, we would have had sex, but we wouldn't have been horny about it. So it's kind of like the problem isn't necessarily the sex in itself. The problem is being horny about it and liking it too much, right? Because they've got to square a circle about you have to have humans somehow, right? He does write, and I've read Augustine writing about this.

And it's the weirdest thing because they spend a lot of time thinking about this. Because as you just pointed out there, it places you in a theoretical conundrum. If your whole thing is being horny is bad, enjoying sex is bad. we need to have sex to make babies. Then you get into a real conundrum, which you can elaborate on. But I have read one of Augustine's theories about what sex would have been like in the Garden of Eden, which was basically that you would kind of lie down next to each other. And then there would be this sort of magical exchange with no pleasure whatsoever.

Yeah, it would be like shaking hands. Yeah, that's kind of what he's saying. Yeah, it would be like any other thing that you would do. And you just wouldn't care about it at all whatsoever. So it's like the sex still happens. But you're just like, hey-ho, you know, may as well have been, I don't know, dancing, something like that. Exactly. Which, you know, I think is not a bad way to kind of look at sex now.

But, you know, enough about me. But, you know, so he really kind of thinks that the problem there is the getting horny, right? And St. Jerome is really similar to this. Now, St. Jerome is unlike St. Augustine, never had a fuck boy stage. No. Noted Downer, St. Jerome. He does go out into the desert and live in a cave and beat his chest with rocks so that he doesn't get horny. This doesn't sound like someone to take sex advice from.

It just doesn't. I do. He also has a noted period where he's tempted by the devil, which shows up as sexy ladies. Right. And he's like, no, get behind me, sexy ladies. I will never be horny. But he does make friends with a lion, so that's cool. Well, this all seems very stable and well thought through to me.

What else does he have to say? What else does he have to say? So, I mean, after he gets out of the cave in the desert, he writes this particular letter that is called Against Jovinian. And we don't know who Jovinian is other than he's like the guy that Jerome clowns on it. It's like, oh, you think it's okay to have sex? Well, guess what, homie? You're wrong.

and he writes this very long letter about how sex is so bad and the fires of lust will consume your soul and that's all very naughty, right? And these two things, like from both Augustine and, I mean, Augustine has it everywhere. It's in city of God. It's like every single thing that Augustine writes. There's like, and by the way, I used to be a real fuck boy, but I'm not anymore. And, you know, Jerome is kind of more like he's got these precise things where he's like, now it's time to learn that sex is bad, right?

But as we say, you know, you've got to get the humans somehow. So they're like, well, the thing for that is marriage, right? And you can get married and have children. And that is fine. But there's always this implicit thing there, right? Which is that the ideal human, the ideal human becomes a member of the clergy. And if the ideal human is a member of the clergy, then they also don't have sex, right? So you should, in a real perfect world, not be having sex, right?

there are outs for you if you cannot, but if you really mean it, if you really care about God, then this is what you do, right? And this then becomes directly linked to the way that medieval society is organized, right? So we've got the three estates, as we say. So it's those who fight, those who pray, and those who work, right? So you've got your aristocracy, your clergy, and everybody else, which is 90% of everybody, which is the peasants, right? And the clergy are kind of always recruiting, right? Because, like, again, in theory, they can't procreate. So you got to get people in, right? So you have to spend all this time being like on sex is very bad and it's very naughty and wouldn't you like to be a clergy member, right? And so that's kind of where this all comes from.

Now, even having said that, right? Like, if you are married, the idea of chastity is still kind of there because it's not like you're supposed to be having sex willy-nilly according to the church. You were supposed to be having sex because you're like, I think my best chances of procreation are now. You're supposed to be like keeping it down. You're not supposed to be too turned on. You were supposed to like do the absolute bare minimum for both parties involved to reach orgasm. Because, you know, as we've talked about before, women need to also achieve orgasm in order for conception to happen.

And then you're supposed to like get out. Right. It's like it's supposed to be like a precision operation. They're like the SAS of sex. It's like you get in, you get out. Minimal casualties. I'll be back with Eleanor after this short break. Kind of like mad about this.

And I'm always trying to pinpoint when this shift happened, which isn't easy because it wouldn't have been like on a Tuesday afternoon or something. But if you'd gone back to like ancient Greek or Rome or Mesopotamia or any of the people before this Christian theology came in, and you tried to convince them that sex itself, the pleasure was bad, they would have looked at you completely blankly. They didn't get that bit. Like, they had ideas around that you shouldn't have too much of it and that if you indulge it too much, you're kind of weak. But they never, as far as I can see, had an idea that it was sinful in itself to enjoy it. That is, like, seems to be quite a unique development. And I'm

never quite sure what that shift was. Who came up with that? They don't really have the same concept of sin, though, do they, pagans? You can do things that offend the gods, right? And the gods can be like, don't love that. I think that's not great. There isn't like sin per se. There's stuff that's immoral, but you don't have this same idea of like contingent of the soul, right, which is kind of sinfulness. So you can do things that are messed up and you can even be punished for them in the afterlife, you know, like see Sisyphus for more information on that. But it's not going to be that like the thing that you did was sinful. It's just like, whoa, you buddy, you knew that was messed up when you did it, right?

Kind of a deal. I think also with paganism, right? If we look at sort of like the Greek and Roman gods, they're also much more human, right? Where it's like, I don't know, they're pretty horny. Like Zeus noted a horny guy, right? Like shugging everything. Absolutely. It's like, he's like, I don't care if I have to turn into a swan boy. I'm about to get it, right? So there is not this idea of godliness that is also kind of linked to chastity. Now, there is an idea of masculinity that is linked to it, certainly. You know, they don't have a concept of sin so you can offend the gods, but it's not sin. The pleasure of sex can be so overwhelming that you kind of like ruin your life with it. Yeah. And like all you, all you ever do is like be horny. And they're like,

well, you're not going to be an ideal member of society if all you're doing to shaggin. But that's more of like a personal failing than it is, you know, something to worry about for the rest of your life. It's not like holy sin, is it? Like that's, and I was talking to the legendary professor Ronald Hutton about this a while ago. Oh, we love Ronald Hutton. Ronald, he was the first person explained to me that the Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, they were the first to have one God that doesn't have sex. that like all the other religions before it,

the gods were horny buggers. So like the idea that a god would have been chased, that was a new thing. Yeah, it's like, and once in a while, I guess you would have like a chase. Like, you know, you've got Artemis in the Greek one. And it's like her thing is she doesn't shack. But it's like you have one.

Yeah, just one. It doesn't have sex. It doesn't want you to have sex either. And then it's like that, I guess that's one for all of our A's homies. So they can be like, oh, I relate. Or whatever, which is cool. And that's cool, you know.

But like, you would never have like a full panty. that we're like, by the way, we definitely don't shag. Because, like, how do you get the pantheon otherwise? It's also said that, like, the Abrahamic religion's part of their appeal was this idea of sin that gets brought in because it's kind of like, oh, well, it's really hard to do this religion and I'm doing it. And so it's kind of like a show-offy thing. Like CrossFit.

Yeah, exactly. God, you know, like, I'm so worried about a thousand years from now what CrossFit's going to look like, but hey, ho, you know, right? But exactly that thing about, like, it being a thing to sort of, like, brag about, you know that this is, oh, well, my religion's really hard to follow. Yeah, look at me. I'm dead tough. Whereas, like, you know, paganism, it's like, I don't know, brought some bulls to the

altar. Whatever. It doesn't have the same kind of, like, show-offy piety, right? So that's, like, kind of one of the, one of the theories that we have about it. And that feeds, obviously, into the medieval period. And then, like, even then, though, I just want to be clear. The church is yelling and being like, I swear to God, do not be horny or shag. And they can't even get the clergy to stop shank.

shagging. Like ever, ever, ever, ever. So it's one of these things where, like, chastity is this ideal, right? Where everyone's like, oh, yeah, and you definitely shouldn't be shagging. And I wouldn't do that. And it's like, oh, really? Well, how come this bishop has three sons? And it's like, uh, you know, and like earlier in the medieval period as well, like that hadn't even really been something that they had completely pinned down. You could even have kind of like levels within the clergy, right? There would be clergy members who were doing it all the way and they're like, man, I absolutely love not having sex. And there will be other people who are like, oh, cool, well, all of my sons are all like

the bishops of the three towns next to me, right? But that also is obviously really linked to hierarchical positions. Like the bishop is going to be able to have kids and then get, you know, nice places for all those kids, like some parish priest out in like deepest, darkest Scotland, probably not. Right? Like there's just not going to be the same sort of things that are available to you. But there are various crackdowns on this throughout the medieval period. So in particular, we talk about the Gregorian reforms of Gregory the Great.

And that is one of the ones where it's like, you need to stop shagging immediately. Immediately. Please stop. Yeah. Please stop doing all of this, right? But this is kind of like in the sixth century and ha, spoiler, that doesn't really work, right? Then you get some more reforms, especially in kind of like the 11th century, 12th century, with your boy there, St. Bernard of Clairvaux,

noted bring downer. And so that he like creates a Cistercian order and things of this nature. And everyone's like, no, I'm serious. The clergy needs to stop shagging now. And with that, you do see that it becomes like impossible for priests to have a wife, to have just like a straight-up wife, right? And it does become impossible for you to say, like,

and here's my son. And can someone go get him a nice bishopric, right? but you do still have people have concubines, like a clandestine relationships. And you will see this all throughout the medieval period. And it becomes like one of the big things that like Protestants talk about. They're like, oh, and all these priests are shagging really. And, you know, so who, why should you listen to them anyway? It never is completely expunged.

And so if we think about the fact that you can't even get the clergy to knock it off, extrapolate how useful it is. and to think about like, you know, getting the actual regular folk to knock it off. It doesn't really work. I think of it as like the obsession with being fit and healthy and clean eating. Like it's this impossible ideal. You can try your best. Like you could be on that fucking hule powder and down CrossFit and all the rest of it.

And there'd always be more that you could do. You'd never ever get it right. So I kind of look at it and think like it almost exists like this impossible ideal that's just, there to make people feel bad, whatever they're doing. But is there a difference between virginity and chastity in the medieval period, do you think? Yes, absolutely. So, you know, because the ideal state is to stay a virgin. Like, number one, you're always chased forever, right?

Like, that would be number one, awesome. But they also love it if you, like, get chased later in life. Like, I mean, the number of saints who it's like their story is, I was a fuck boy. And now I'm not. Marjorie Kemp. Marjorie Kemp does that. Like doesn't she say something about how I can't possibly have sex my husband ever again, even the thought of it repulses me.

Yeah, poor husband, like rip to that relationship. And they had been Shaghan because they had a million kids. Yeah, so you get that. It's one of the designated paths to Sainthood, which is what Marjorie Kemp is going for, right? She's like gunning real hard. She thinks she's going to get Sainthood, which is why we have the autobiography and everything. She's like, here are all these miraculous things that happened to me. Aren't I special?

Everyone's like, actually, you're just like quite annoying girl. I never realized that about her before, that it was, she's effectively self-promoting to try and get a sainthood. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. And so as a part of that, you've got to then big up your chastity, right? Yes. And this is like super common, especially for women, like a big way in the medieval period for women to get sainthood is to be kind of slutty with it and give it up.

So you have the so-called prostitute saints like Afrov Augsburg, Catherine of Alexandria, sorry, not Catherine of Alexandria. Alexandria, Mary of Egypt, not Catherine of Alexandria, the Patriot Saint of Sculler's. She absolutely did not have a ho face, which, but she deserves one. Maybe she doesn't. Maybe she did. And it's just not on the record. And then there's like, of course, Mary Magdalene, right? Like, and these are the quote unquote prostitute saints. And it's like a hot way of becoming holy is to have given up all that slutty life, right? And it also kind of applies oftentimes to like royal saints. So if you are like, you're, you want your mom or your dad, they're a king or a queen.

They'll be like, oh, but I gave it all up in my later age. And this is super common. So especially for people who are incredibly well to do, they will spend the last part of their life in nunneries or monasteries. And it's kind of like a retirement home for rich people. Right. And they are not exactly a monk or a nun, but they will like take vows of chastity. And it's also really common to find what we call vowses.

So these are women who, after their husbands die, they take a vow of celibacy. And they still kind of continue to live in their community. So they're not like quite nuns. But they're like, I'm never going to shag again. And this is my whole deal. Right. So this kind of display of chastity is very much welcomed. And it's also, you know, a thing that we tend to see later in life.

But for women, it also kind of makes sense because it's like, well, you know, you, you get to control, like your husband's business, your husband's lands or whatever, when he dies. And if you marry again, that just like goes over to your husband. So it kind of benefits you to be like, nope, took a vow. I'm very chaste, you know, kind of a deal. And it gets men to kind of back off and leave you alone. So you could have this concept of almost like, you could totally have your ho phase, but then you could become a spiritual virgin later on. You could like regrow your virginity. Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. This is like the move.

Like a lot of people kind of do this to the point where there's this joke, even still in Catholicism, which is a God grant me chastity, but not yet. It's just like, you know, like I'll get there. I'll get there at some point in time. Yeah, we see this all over the shop, right? But then there's like a quite interesting thing, right? Because one of the big things you see with medieval chastity actually comes up in various heresies.

And in particular, these are what we call the dualist. heresies, which are a bit of a grab bag. So there are a few of them. There are the good men and women of Languedoc, which we often call the Cathars. It is said that the Bogamils believe in this and also the Waldensians, right? And they have this idea that's called dualism, which is like, okay, well, the physical world was not actually created by God. Okay.

The physical world was created by the devil. Okay. Because like, God wouldn't make things that are bad. I suppose that does make sense, actually. Yeah, yeah. I think I could be converted with that, actually. That would get me. Yeah, and it's like, he wouldn't make things that are bad.

He wouldn't make a world in where you had to die. He wouldn't make a world where you could sin. Like, that's, that is all devil's stuff. We wouldn't make a world with Love Island for God's sake. No. God would never do that. No. He's much more of a below-deck kind of guy.

Okay, so what do they think God's doing? I'm on a tangent now, but if they think that, so like we're living in the devil's world, do they have this idea of God as just kind of like an absent parent figure? Well, God is there rooting for you in hoping that you're going to overcome the trials and travails of the physical world. And yeah, and it's like, well, he couldn't stop the devil for making this world. But if you kind of can get through it, then you can get to heaven. Or it's like the Matrix. Right.

And so it's sort of like this is all inconvenient, right? And so as a part of this, obviously sex is sinful because sex is something that happens in the world that was created by the devil. Right. And it's physical. And so not only is it just like, you know, a function of the physical world and so you know it's very bad indeed. But it brings other people into the physical world. So pregnancy is bad and giving birth to people is bad because you're dragging them in to this

sinful physical world, which they shouldn't be a part of. So in an ideal world, everyone would be abstinent because you need to make sure that no one else gets dragged into all this stuff with the devil. And now the church is like, I need you to call. calm the fuck down right now. I need you to not say any of that stuff anymore. Yeah, like, I, they're like, I'm sorry, no, excuse me, right? Because the church absolutely understands that you need more people, right?

Like, you can't, you can't just stop having the world. And also, obviously, the church is not signing up for, by the by, the devil made the world, right? They're like, no, I'm sorry. That's not how the phenomenal universe works. Oh, yeah, they wouldn't like that, would they? Oh, no. Oh, no, they wouldn't like that. Yeah. So you will see big crackdowns on these people. So, you know, we get this with, for example, the Alba Genzine Crusade where they go really hard against what they're calling the Cathars. You see crackdowns against Bogamil's. You see crackdowns against Waldenzians. But you never see these ideas completely quashed. And they just kind of like pop up in different places. This isn't to say that all of these heresies are exactly the same. But it's just that they share this one common way of looking at the world.

hilariously, this can be taken a lot of ways, right? So we have this fantastic account of a woman called Beatrice, who is from Southern France. There's all these dudes trying to convert her to, and she just calls them heretics, but, you know, we would say maybe that they are Cathars, right? And when I say all these guys are trying to convert her to, like, catharism, they are trying to shag her, right? Interesting technique, lads, okay. Yeah, yeah.

So like there's this priest, right? He's an actual honest to God Catholic priest, but he's gone heretical. And he's trying to shag Beatrice real hard. And she's like, dude, A, you're a priest and B, I am married to someone else. So like this is just this is not going to be. This is why so many women chose the bear. Not this shit. Like right here.

Honestly, I'm angry on behalf of Beatrice. Go on tell me. This man is like, he is whiling out. He's like hiding in her bedroom. and like popping out. And he's like, I mean, this is, this is a seriously terrible man. Sex pest. He's a sex pest.

Part of his thing is when she's like, A, I'm married, B, your priest. He's like, ah, see, here's the thing. You're under the impression that sex can ever not be sinful. And it can't because sex is a part of the physical world and the physical world is made by the devil. So all sex is sinful no matter what you do. But it's probably even more sinful that you're having sex with your husband because you think it's okay and it's actually not. Do you know what? That's so impressive. I think I would actually shag him. Just as a well done to come up with that much bullshit.

Yeah, right. The mental gymnastics of that is spectacular. You already know that you shouldn't be shagging the priest. And so therefore it's less sinful because you know that you're doing a sin question mark. She does shag him. she shagged this man oh no she also then shags another one later

once you enter the matrix by that point you just like yeah well I may as well have sex with everybody on the entire planet then if it's all been made up by the devil it's like this unfortunately comes out in court right and I think they don't kill her or anything does she get away with it yeah she gets yeah she gets away with it

but you know things like this are absolutely kind of used as proof that like other good men and women are sinful and, you know, should be killed, right? Because it's like they're all out here shagging and it's like, I don't know, well, Beatrice's shagging. Wow. Basically the church is like, you see, you see that they don't really believe this.

So it kind of like cuts both ways because there's people who absolutely do believe this and they go fully chased and like that's what their life is. But then you get people like this chancing priest who are like, I have discovered a new way to pick up girls. Right. I'm very chaste. But there is a lot of small print to this. I think that's kind of what happened.

Exactly. I'll be back with Eleanor after this short break. Were men in the medieval period subjected to this? Another interesting shift is back in the ancient world when you're looking at the concept of being chased, although I don't think they would have talked about like that. It was a very masculine virtue, as you said right at the beginning. It was this kind of like, I'm totally in control of my body. I'm not going to be tempted from the path of enlightenment by these slutty harlots.

But by the time you get to the medieval period, things are shifted. Is there still a big concept of men needing to be sexually changed? Or is this all directed at women by this point? It's much more directed at women because it's like, well, men have this covered. Yeah, they're fine. I would simply just be a man about it and not be a big slut, right? And whereas women are the ones because they're so horny who really struggle with this. Now, having said that, we have all kinds of things with the clergy being like,

you know and like writing about how it is difficult for them to remain chaste and you know it's talked about very openly as a difficult thing it's a difficult thing that you're doing for god right in an ideal world you probably would be shagging if you could but you know that you can't because it's sinful so you don't right but it's very much talked about like the bigger problem is women because women are so incredibly horny that they need to be watched much more than men do And that's like the medieval count 22 and all of this. And I've never ever been able to square the circle. And to be honest, I don't think any of the medieval theologians could do it either.

Is this concept that women are insatiably sex mad that you can't take your eyes off and for a second, they'll be off shagging something, but also they're the ones that need to be virgins. It's like, how does this work? Well, you know, there's rather a lot of just like social control and rather a lot of just like straight up having your fathers and brothers act as like jailers. Yeah. To a certain extent. Yeah.

It's not great. I mean, like, I would say like for peasant women, it's a lot more like, hey, ho, whatever. There are a lot of downsides to being a peasant. But if what you want is freedom. You have a different type of freedom. You can't move down the road, but you can shag. You're not constrained by quite the same ridiculousness as people are in the aristocracy. You're very constrained in other ways.

Yeah. No one cares if the father's daughter has a boyfriend. You're a farm girl who cares, right? Whereas a princess, oh, please, right? Like you are never going anywhere near anyone else until you're married, right? And then after you're married, you can maybe indulge in the whole courtly love thing and like get jacked off by your boyfriend. No one who's a peasant can afford to have their daughters staying at home locked in a room all the time. And, you know, this isn't to say that royalty and nobility don't.

shag around, but it's just a lot trickier that you have to invent elaborate parlor games and write poems in order to make it happen. This provides me with the perfect segue into the question, which I know you've got a lot to say about. We've got to talk about the concept of the medieval chastity balance. Tell me what it's supposed to be and tell me if there's any evidence for this talk. Okay, so the thing that it is supposed to be is like a metal thing that you lock onto a woman It's like metal underwear, right?

It has holes for excretion, and that's about it. And the legend here is that it's like would be put on women while they were traveling or if their husband was traveling or their father or whatever. It was like, aha, and now you have like padlocked underwear so you can't actually have sex. And so this will keep you a chaste but be also safe from sexual aggression is the idea. Okay, okay. I see it. Yeah. You know, like especially in terms of traveling.

The idea is like, oh, and then no one's going to like end up being sexually assaulted. The thing about them is, is they're not real. They're not real. I mean, we're all living in hope, aren't we? That there will be a chest unearthed from 13th century France. And in it will be a chastity belt with instructions. But they're not real as far as we know. They're not real.

They are a Victorian invention. And they're kind of horny about it. Surprise. We don't have any documents that say, Oh, yeah, like made a chastity belt today. We don't have any documents that say put a chastity belt on someone. And, you know, compare and contrast this with the fact that we have, like, documents that are like making a strap on.

Yes. You know, from the medieval period. So it's like we have evidence for sex toys of other sorts. It would have been mentioned, right? Yeah, I'm going out and I'm calling, frankly, I'm sorry, I'm calling Chastity Belt a sex toy. You're being a perv right now. I think so because, like, although it's kind of packaged as, or it's a chastity belt, it's about protecting virginity.

Really what it's saying is if you take the sexual assault bit out of the equation, which I think is a convenient add-on, really what you're saying is that your wife is so slutty. She's such a raging, fire-breathing whore that you need to padlock her genitals every time you leave the house. Yeah, I'm sorry, but you cannot tell me that this isn't some kind of power play. That's a kink, right? It's still a kink.

That is a kink. And it is a really hardcore kink now. And God bless, you know, the kink ship and all. those who sail on her. The thing that Victorians also like to do is they love the medieval period, right? They love it. Why do they love it as much as they do, Arna? Because they had a real thing for it.

It's a reaction to industrialization. You know how you'll get like weirdos now who are all like, oh, we must return with a V to like, I don't know, the 1950s or whatever? Victorians are doing that about the medieval period. And the idea is like, oh, things weren't all like filthy with industrialization. Everything was pastoral and clean and neat. People were more godly, question mark. Yeah.

And it was just, you know, this harmonious, beautiful society where everyone just like walked around praising God, right? And that's why we get cool stuff like the Victorian architecture that's neo-gothic, which I love. I'm like absolutely tip-top job, everybody. Love a bit of neo-gothic architecture. King Arthur Revival. That was them as well. That was them. And they made King Arthur not slutty.

which is like medieval King Arthur, noted slut. Yep. Completely desexed. And they're like, and this time, no. So the Victorians are constantly doing this kind of thing. And they just like to dress things up and make them a little bit medieval. And that's quite fun for them. It's also like sometimes in the late Georgian period a little bit,

the Gothic revival more specifically as a reaction to kind of like the ancient Greece and Roman wanking. you know, when everything was like a fake temple. Yeah. So some people will be like, well, that's not the kind. I am. I'm this kind. And I like medieval things instead. And you're like, okay, well, calm down.

It's interesting, isn't it, that the Enlightenment thinkers in the 18th century, they were all reviving classical architecture and themes and literature. And then you kind of get past that. And there's this interest in medieval, which is exactly what the Enlightenment were like, no, no, no, we need to get away from all of these stupid medieval people who were sitting in ditches. But now with the romantic poet, there's this kind of fascination with the medieval period as a time of romance and magic. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And you see this, for example, in the art of the pre-Raphael, X.

Oh, God, yes. Who are, like, constantly, like, painting the Lady of Shalot and this, that, and the other. Swooning. A lot of swooning. All of this kind of swirls into, you know, you get all kinds of weird ideas about medieval torture and things that aren't real. Like, this is how you get the myth of Iron Maidens. another one is the oral, anal, and vaginal pair, which they say they're, or the pair of anguish, which is like this metal thing that in theory you put in people's mouths and opened up and it had spikes.

And it's like, again, you were being so horny right now. Like, what are you making up? This is not real. You know, like, I'm not saying that people didn't get tortured in the medieval period. I'm just saying that like. I just go, are you okay? They're not. They're really not okay, right?

it's an interesting one, right? Because like all these weird things that the Victorians do, oftentimes people then blame medieval people for them. And I'm like, yeah. Like the river's full of shit and the, you know, weird psychosexual tortures. That's all Victorian. That's, that's, yeah. Do we have any idea of who was writing about the chest about,

like where it came from, where it emerged from? I mean, it does seem to be like an English affliction. Congratulations, everybody. you know, which I love for us. We know that it kind of like comes out that. And it's kind of a part of the same idea that they're kind of looking at the back. And so this kind of like comes about when you have the kind of 19th century desire to kind of go and start looking at the past. And this is like across the board though, right?

So the 19th century desire to kind of look at the medieval past is also linked to forms of nationalism. So people are like, oh, well, what makes me English? What makes me French? You know, things like that. And they all start digging around in the past to be like, oh, yeah, here's a thing that we found. And because we're having rather a lot of Freud's around the shop, you know, we're starting to think about sex in like new ways. Right. So this is we're kind of like getting the births of intellectual curiosity around sex.

And so as a result of this, it does. seem that it is like intellectuals such as ourselves who came up with this nonsense. You are all welcome. Right. It's like, I mean, I haven't, I have not invented a kink so far. So I'm really slacking. I'd be quite pleased if I'd managed to invent something like that, I think. Yeah, I think it's really cool.

But it's like, you know, it's all kind of like part of this grab bag where if everything can be intellectualized, if everything can be, you know, turned into a philosophy, then you can kind of like just go rooting around about in the past and you can go, ha ha. and like, you know, come out on the other side with some psychoanalysis and, uh, bada bada bada boom, you got a chastity belt, right? So thinking about concepts of medieval chastity. And it's fascinating how, where these ideas came from, how they were deployed, like how relevant they were.

I mean, like, okay, you've got some saints talking about it, but did you post on the street have much to say about it? But I think that you can look at how influential these ideas were. Maybe I'm way off the market. But the influence that they still exert to this very day. So, like, my final question to you would be. So just think a little bit about the concept of chastity today. Do you think that we're still in the grips of this thing?

And how do you see it playing out? Oh, yeah, I think absolutely. We certainly do. And you see this all the time, for example, in the Manosphere. There is a lot of emphasis on, for example, you know, the silliness surrounding No Nut November. Yes. For anyone who is unaware, please explain what No Nut November is. So this is the thing where people encourage, especially men, not to ejaculate during the month of November.

I think just because November rhymes. I think this is why they've gone with that. It's very medieval. The idea here is that it kind of like depletes your essence and it makes you more feminine if you are ejaculating all the time. And so you can therefore use your big brain to do manly things like, I don't know, literally anything else, right? And so we certainly see it in that this idea of this kind of like mastery of the body and a complete chastity in this way. We also see it with these kind of like quote unquote trad movements or traditionalist movements where again idiots have an idea about the past and they say that like no one should be having extramarital sex. There's this idea that women and only women of course every time they have sex with a man that man's DNA is lodged inside.

penis and vagina sex, right? The only kind of sex that exists, penis and vagina sex. That man's DNA will be lodged in her forever, so you don't want to, you know, get with a woman who's had sex with anyone else because other men's DNA are inside her, you know, like bonkers pseudoscientific stuff. An emphasis on body count as well.

Yeah, exactly. The number of sex that specifically women have had sex with is a bad thing. Like, you know, men, it's kind of like unlimited. For men, it's a little bit more. or like control yourself and be a manly man. And for women, it's like, oh, they're dangerously sexual. So this is the thing. Like we think we've got past these ideas.

But there is a real worry about the sexuality of women that still exists. And this kind of emphasis on what ideal people would do. Gail Rubin has this idea that she calls the charmed circle of sex. And these are the ideas of sex that we find to be. acceptable, right? And so this is like monogamous sex where it is vanilla and heterosexual and married and procreative and it's free and you are in a relationship and you are of the same generation. So there's this form of sex that we find to be the ideal. And it still adheres to the same sorts of ideas that people were putting forward to us in the medieval period. It's like, well, I mean, really, you should be

ready to have a child at any moment. Really. it should be within the bounds of at the very least a committed relationship. Really, it should be monogamous, right? And so we still carry that around at a social level, even if we would like to make fun of religious ideas for it. We've simply internalized it. And, you know, I think the Enlightenment has a whole lot to, you know, explain. Because like when you see people saying, oh, the reason you don't want a woman with a high body count

is because like men's DNA is lodged in her, it's like, okay, well, this is not real. And all you've done is you've taken bad understandings of science and you're using that instead of religion in order to justify your misogynistic clap trap. And so all we really did with the Enlightenment was just like slap science where religion was. And then we'd spend a bunch of time trying to justify like our bad ideas and say, no, no, it's scientific. And it's absolutely not, right? Exactly. Oh, Eleanor, you are always amazing to talk to. I have so much fun talking to you.

If people will know more about you and your work, and frankly, they should. Where can they find you? Well, you can check out my podcast, Gone Medieval, which I'm the host of Every Tuesday, along with the fabulous Matt Lewis. If you want to know more specifically about weird things and ideas that we have about women, you can check out my book, The Once and Future Sex Going Medieval on Women's Roles in Society. Very good. Thank you so much for talking to me.

You've been great, and my mum will be really pleased. Thank you, Kate. Thanks, Kate's mom. Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Eleanor for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you want us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at betwixt at historyhit.com.

We have got episodes on everything from 18th century illegitimacy to our limited series inside the witch trials, all coming your way. And if you fancy more medieval histories, then definitely click over to our sister podcast, Gone Medieval, co-hosted by the one and only, Eleanor Yarniga. This podcast was edited and produced by Stuart Beckwith, the senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again betwixt the sheets, The History of Sex Scandal in Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.