Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Mozart's Sex Life

Episode Date: July 14, 2023

When we think of the biggest pop icons of all time, we might reach for Madonna, Elvis, or yes, even Michael Jackson. One name that’s not thrown into the pot is Mozart. But why? His music was undoubtedly the pop music of his day, and as we’ll find out today, he had all the stardom and groupies of anyone in the modern day. Joining us is Judith Grohmann, author of The Real Mozart: The Original King of Pop, to provide answers to questions such as what was he really like as a person? What influence did his relationship with his father have? And why did he write a song about eating excrement?!This episode was edited by Tom Delargy, and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. If you're enjoying Betwixt please vote for us at the British Podcast Awards here. It would mean the world to us!Discover the past on History Hit with ad-free original podcasts and documentaries released weekly presented by world renowned historians like Kate Lister, Dan Snow, Suzannah Lipscomb, Lucy Worsley, Mary Beard and more.Get 50% off your first 3 months with code BETWIXT. Download the app on your smart TV or in the app store or sign up at historyhit.com/subscribe. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? We'll sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles.

Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, my lovely bit Twixsters. How are you doing? It's me again, Kate Lister. I just love talking to you twice a week. I have so much fun. Do you have fun?

And one of the most fun bits I get to do, which no one predicted that this was going to happen, is this bit where I give you your fair do's warning for anyone new, thinking, Kate, what is a fair do's warning? Well, this is the bit where we have to warn you. This is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults in an adulty way, about a range of adult subjects and that you need to be an adult too. Today we're actually talking about Mozart, and although it's not the rudest one that we've ever done, it's definitely straying into rude territory. We'll be discussing sex.

We'll be discussing poo. What else would you be discussing when you're talking about a musical genius? And if these things are just not for you, then this is your own. opportunity to duck out now while you still can and come and see us the next time we're on. And if you hang around and if you get offended, then, well, that's really on you, isn't it? Because fair dues, you were warned. For the rest of you, let's do this. A common accusation that gets levied at classical music is that it's just, it's not all that

accessible. It has connotations of very high society, of being quite elitist and, well, let's just call it what it is. snobby. However, if you and me, lovely betwixta, were to travel back in time to a party thrown in 18th century Austria, we might see a precocious young talent of the classical music world jumping on top of the piano and hammering away the ivories to his brand new ditty, Leck Mick Mine Arse. Or lick me in the ass. Charming, absolutely charming. And if that isn't accessible, then I don't know what is. And who wrote it? Who wrote, Lick Me in the

Ars? Well, it was none other than Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. Yes, really, truly. Look that one up, if you don't believe me, you can actually see Lick Me in the Ars being performed on YouTube today. Mozart was an undisputed musical genius, the likes of which we may never see again but he was also a proper mucky pup and today we are going to find out all about it what do you look for a man oh money of course you're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you i make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing the Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, my beautiful time. Goodness had nothing to do with it, Derek.

And welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society. With me, Kate Lister. We tend to think of glamour and debauchery of pop and rock stardom as being modern phenomenons. Right? Have you ever been in the crowd and thrown your knickers at Harry Stiles? That's just me. He ducked. Perhaps you were there when Elvis Presley first-jured. shook his hips and outraged the world. Well, our guest today, Judith Groman, author of The Real Mozart, the original King of Pop,

is here to put a slightly different spin on that. Back in the 18th century, the young Wolfgang enjoyed his groupies. He enjoyed the chaotic and debauched lifestyle of rock and roll royalty. For a man that died at 35, he truly encapsulated the maxim, live fast, die young. But what was life really like for this incredibly talented composer? What comparisons can we draw with pop stars from today? And what is the real story behind his fixation with eating shit? But before we get into this episode, I have a little favour to ask from you,

lovely, lovely, lovely betwixta whose ear I am whittering into right now. If you are enjoying the podcast, and please do this before you. listen to the rest of this episode because you might not be enjoying it from here and out. But if you are, please would you vote for us for the listeners choice award at the British Podcast Awards? If you follow the link in the show notes, you can give it a click, you can vote us in and honestly it would make us so happy. We were shortlisted last year and we only just missed out. And with your help, we can get it. We can claim that title. We can do it for Twixters. And now we're done with that. Let's get back to the episode and Licking Mozart's

Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Judith Groman. How are you doing? Thank you very well. I am here to talk to you about the one, the only, the maestro, the genius that is Mozart. Why have you been attracted to this historical figure? Obviously, this is a genius and he's a musician, but you research so much more about who he was as a person. Do you remember what it was that made you go, I need to know more about this person? Well, I must say when you grow up in Austria, there's no way to escape from Mozart,

and it starts with that, you know? I grew up with him and I loved him, of course, because I love music. I'm addicted to every sort of music. And in this special case, it was a gift for me because my publishing house approached me and said, could you imagine writing a book about Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart?

And I said, oh yes, why not? Okay, so you've grown up under the shadow of Mozart, like a huge cultural influence, as he is all over the world. And obviously I knew I was coming to talk to you today, and it just occurred to me that I know so little about the man himself. I know the music and I know the genius

and I can listen to the music and go, that's Mozart, I know so little about who he was. Am I going to be surprised when I know what he's like? Were you surprised when you sort of got to know him through history? I was surprised to read several books, and I was surprised to read what other people thought about him. And then I did my researchers, journalists that I am,

I did my researchers, and then I started to write. And it was clear to me that he was a genius, because he started at the age of four. So, I mean, I don't know if you did some music practice at the age of four or you composed at the age of four, I didn't. But I always wanted to write. So for me, it was clear that he had a certain strategy and a career that was very special.

That's true then, that he really was writing and composing at the age of three, four. That's not a myth about him. No, no, it's not a myth. And in fact, the reality is he had a very strong father with the name of Leopold. He was German and he came to Austria, to Salzburg. And he wanted to study law there. And he studied law. And besides of that, he practiced music.

And then he switched from law to music and he became also a composer. And he worked for Salzburg. And he was born into this family. And he had an older sister who was also, of course, into music. It was clear. And he followed his sister. Wow. So it set me the scene then.

What is the family like that little baby Mozart is born into? You said that there's a strong father. I suspect he might come up again. There are brothers and sisters. Is this a close-knit family? Is this already a musical family? What are they like? It was a very close family and a music family.

But the problem. of the sister was that she was a woman at that time, you know? And being a woman in 1700, whatever, was not as easy as now. Because now as a woman, you study, you do whatever you want, you travel, and then you work here and there, and you make your career. But at the time, she was a woman and you don't do a career at that time. And that's why he had the chance as a man to do the career he wanted to do. But was she good? Was his sister talented as well?

Yes, that's a problem. She was as talented as him. No. They were both, yeah, they were both interested in music and they grew up with this dad who did concerts everywhere and to teach music to the younger generation. And it was normal for them, you know? There was no TV and no radio at the time.

So it was clear that they were always around him. She must have been so angry at that, that she's got all her talent. Was Mozart her older or younger brother? She was older, four years older. So the younger brother gets all the glory. Yes, and dad said, listen, her name was Maria Anna. They called her Nanal, which is a typical Austrian name.

And they said, Nanal, you stay on the side of your mother. But when they were kids, they were in concert with the dad. So they were always together, you know, but she was not allowed to do a career. That's sad. That's very sad, yeah. Were there other brothers and sisters who just weren't talented? Yes, but they died, unfortunately, because at that time, it was not like now with the hygiene topics, and it was a little bit different, you know? And unfortunately, only to a brother and sister.

How many had there been? How many children had they been? Seven. It was a time when you had a lot of kids. Yeah. Okay, so you mentioned that their dad was strong and we'll get back to him. What was the mum like? Oh, she was lovely and she and her husband, Leopold, they were the couple. In fact, in Salzburg, even if he was a German, they were loved by everybody and everybody loved them, you know, and appreciated. And she came from a very good family from outside of Salzburg. So she was known, as you would say now.

Yes. I see. Okay, so they're a power couple. Do they have money? Do they come from money? They had money because they worked very seriously and did their little family. So the mother's nice. The mother is known as being a sort of an it person. She is recognizable. She is from good stock, I suppose they would say. Tell me about the dad. Tell me about Leopold. What was he like? He was the gentleman in the family, but he knew. that he was the genius too. Oh, he was a genius too? He wrote a book about how to teach yourself to play violin

that is still sold nowadays and that the musicians from all over the world have. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a serious family for the time. So he's very, very, very talented as well. How does he react to realizing his children are incredibly talented? Oh, he was amazed.

It was great for him. He loved his kids. And he was the dad who showed the kids how to do concerts, and it was really sweet. I mean, it was good, positive. This is like a happy childhood. Yes. Mozart is right here.

Yes. Do we have any sense that he enjoyed being on show? Because obviously, child stars, it can be very difficult and very damaging. And he was like touring around the world, wasn't it? He was playing for royalty and aristocracy and really famous people. Did he like that as a day? Yes, we did. Yes, he loved it.

He adored it. You know, a little child who everybody looks at and says, that's the little Wolfgang Amadeus. Oh my God, he can play the piano and the violin and whatever. And people were amazed. They were fans like nowadays with Sting or with Adele. They were running behind them, you know. He's a little tiny child, isn't he?

He's like four or five. You know, he was a child at the time, and he did it in a childish, it's normal but he was very good because I've heard a story about him that when he was a child he went to the Vatican and he heard music in the Vatican and he just heard it twice and he was able to write it down yes that's true yes he was extremely intelligent and he had a very musical sense you know he grew up with that and it was like writing thank you very much for him it was normal that's incredible yes because he might have had something like

Cervant syndrome or he might have had something to explain that level of genius because you can be really good at music but just to better hear something and write it down and just at five to be able to knock out an aria that's just next level stuff isn't it but there are still some kids who are like that nowadays I remember playing chopsticks as a child that was a good idea nobody took me on a tour and he's mega famous isn't he his name is known all over the and the whole family is touring around corpse, aren't they? They're all kind of going together as a family. What was the experience like for the family?

Because this is 18th century. I can't imagine that the travel conditions are great. Yeah, no, it was not great. It took a long time. It's not like nowadays when we jump into a train or an airplane and tuck in two hours we are in Paris or in England. It was completely different. So it took weeks to go to Paris or to London.

And in fact, they went to London. They loved England. They adored England. They loved Paris and they loved Italy. These were the three countries that brought them so much attention and a lot of fans and a lot of money also. I did read that they got sick quite a lot on the travels. Is that right?

Again, the hygienic condition were not like now. And you didn't shower like we shower now. And there are other things. Maybe we should not talk about that, but... We should definitely talk about them. We should definitely. Okay, when you got to the toilet, there was no toilet. You did in some whatever.

And then it went out of the window at the time. So you can imagine how the streets were. Nice. And there were no cleaners like nowadays. So it was like that. Pretty grim. Even though they're raking in the cash and they're getting famous and recognition.

It must have had a toll on this little family to be going all over the world, these huge long journeys with these very small children in tow. And did they stay together as a family? Yeah, they were okay doing this. For them, it was, yeah, normality. And when somebody was ill, okay, they stayed longer. It cost it more because they had to pay for the apartment.

But they always had people who helped, you know, always people who helped them to get a contract to be paid. And the only problem that they had was that, in fact, Leopold Mozart worked in Salzburg, and it was a regular work for weeks and months. And when he dropped away, his boss said, come on, I mean, how long will you stay away? And he said, well, something like one or two months. Sometimes the boss collapsed, you know. He said, oh, my God, how often do you want to do that?

per a year. And it was like that. I'll be back with Juniors and Wolfgang after this short break. I'm Tristan Hughes, host of the ancients from History Hit, where twice a week, every week, we delve into our ancient past. I'm joined by leading experts, academics and authors who share incredible stories from our distant history and shine a light on some of antiquities' great questions.

Was the Oracle of Delphi really able to see into the future? what can be discovered from lost civilizations, and was King Arthur actually real? You can expect all of this and more from the ancients on history hit wherever you get your podcasts. All right, so we've got a very young Amadeus Mozart here, happily touring and being adored. Puberty is never an easy time for anybody. What happens when Mozart starts growing up, basically, and becoming a young man? okay under this, what sounds like quite a strict regime with his dad? Yes, absolutely.

Bill nailed it now. Yes, it become more and more difficult for him because the father always had a certain strategy. He was the strategist in the family. So he was not only the mentor, but also the one who said, we are doing this, this, this, we are traveling there and there and we do it like that. And at a certain point, of course, for the young men, it was not funny at all. and he wanted to do his thing.

What was it he wanted to do? What was his dad's vision and what was... Not always traveling everywhere. He wanted also to travel alone. Right. He's going solo. And then he went with his mother solo in several countries and that's when at the time,

unfortunately, in Paris, his mother died while he was doing concerts. And that was sad because he didn't think about the illness of his mother. He didn't understand it. He was not a doctor. you know, and she felt ill. And again, the hygienic conditions, and you have a flu, and then suddenly you get into a coma and you are done, you know.

Was he a teenager when that happened? Yes. Yeah. And after that, he said everything was different for him because he loved his mother. Mother was like the rock in the family. Right. He could talk about everything with her, and then she left.

And then only with the dominant father. It was not so easy. And the sister, I mean, she was nice, but she was not the boss. So it was not so easy. And then something switched in his head, I think. Something changed for him. Okay. That's interesting. And then there was the plan for him not to stay in Salzburg. Because in Salzburg, they said, you are the son of Leopold. You have to stay here. We'll give you a job. Tla-la-la. And he said, no, I want to compose. I want to do other things. of course. He was extremely talented. And what did his dad want him to do? What did Leopold want him to do? Just to stay with him and to keep trying. To stay in Salzburg and sometimes to travel with him. Leopold didn't want to change his mind and didn't want to change the strategy.

This is a recipe for disaster, isn't it? Okay. So you've got a supremely talented young man. His mum, who seems like quite a stabilizing influence, has passed away. and now this very domineering dad and puberty's about to hit so can I ask you about like what was a peabescent Mozart like did he have first crushes

first loves did he have girlfriends yes it happened in fact it was the first crushes were the friends of his sister of course of course they were the first fans were the best friends of his sister and then

happened what has to have happened I just keep thinking about poor Nanelle. Like not only is she as talented him but has been sidelined. Now this little brother is chatting up her friends as well. She must just be there like, can I have nothing of my own? No, she also married later and a very good man and she was... Oh, so she, did she have a happy ending? Yes, yes.

She had her children and it was okay for her. But the little Mozart at the beginning was not so interested in woman. He was more interested on his career. And then with a time, you know, they grow up and there are concerts and after the concerts, the fans are waiting. Of course. And it was really the same thing that now, I was, when I did the researchers, I said to myself, very strange.

It's the same effect is it that there were young women watching Mozart play and it had the same reaction as the Beatles when they performed in America. I've now got an image of 18th century Austrian women throwing their bloomers at the stage at a very young Mozart. Is that what we're talking about here? Yes. Wow. Of course that's what happened. When you think about it, that makes sense.

But it's strange to think of 18th century groupies hanging around Mozart's stage door. Yes. And for him it was also very funny to talk to them. He made some funny jokes. He was more the kind of a funny person. His sense of humour was weird though Yes, that's true There are things that you learn about Mozart

that suddenly you go I'm sorry, what? Because you hear the name Mozart and you think so sophisticated and grand and these operas and aryas and it's amazing And when you learn that he thought That farts and poo and shit

were incredibly funny What scholars refer to as Scatological humour That was his sweet spot, wasn't it? Yes, that's true I think for him it was was also totally normal to talk about that and to write that in his letters that you can find nowadays, yeah?

Like he writes to one of his cousins, Goodnight, I hope you shit the bed. Yes, or I shit the bad or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not black humor. It's maybe a sort of black humor. There has been a lot of research done around this. And I've heard scholars argue that this was just Austrian-German humor at the time. No, thank you.

No, it was not all Austrians like that. It was him. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't take that. I thought, I thought, you can't, that's no fair. We are not like that, oh my God. And I've heard someone say that it was quite common, this kind of humour at the time. But I'm not so sure about that.

I mean, obviously these things have always been funny, but I think he kind of is not unique, but he definitely finds this stuff funnier than most people. To the point where later he writes songs about it, doesn't he? His opera, that he's called, lick my ass that he writes. Yes, he wrote a lot of stuff, and he also went to parties, and he played the idiot there. He jumped on the tables and danced and meowed.

Really? Yes. He had a childish art, in my opinion. He was like a child, but he was an adult man. So he used that to seduce the women, I suppose, to show them I'm like a child and you can take care of me or whatever. I don't know what. Oh, I see. That technique, right.

I found that very surprising about his character is that he does have this incredibly childish, childlike sense of humor. I didn't know he meowed at people and danced on tables. That's quite surprising. And he is having relationships and affairs. Who was the big love of his life? Well, the older sister of his then wife, Aloysia. He met her in Vienna and she was a singer.

And he loved her because she was pretty and she could sing. And he did some pieces. He composed some pieces for her so that she could sing his music. And unfortunately, Aloysia got an engagement with her father to go to Munich and to work there. And he tried to say, please take me with you or stay with me and we go to Milan or to London or whatever. And she said, no, I will take Munich and that's it. Did she love him back? No.

No. Do too many fart jokes and meowing? It was not for her. It was one guy and it was not a good love. Right. But her mother was very clever, let's say, because her family was sponsored, if you would say it in nowadays speech, by Mozart.

Okay. He gave them money because the father sometimes had problems and then he gave them money. And the mother said, that's a talented young guy. He gives us money. He looks, however he looks, yes, nice. And I will marry my youngest daughter with him.

And that's what she did. She did everything that he had to marry her youngest daughter. Like, that is some Jerry Springer stuff. Right. Did Mozart love her? Or do you think that you just married her to sort of stay close to the older sister? That's a good point, yeah. She had some rooms in her flat and he could sleep there.

And he had to pay off the flat, of course. And she did everything so that he could be alone with her daughter. And then he was into the daughter, of course. She was there. She was sweet. She was beautiful. Was they love that? Did they love one another, do you think?

Yes. But at the end, Constance had a boyfriend who was a sort of assistant. of Mozart. Oh, that's very shocking. From what I've read, Mozart wasn't faithful during this marriage either. He always had some groupies like the musicians we all know, also the British ones. We don't say any names. How old was Mozart when he got married? How old was it? She was 19 and he was 24, 25, something like that, yeah. You know, we know the portrait. We have it here also. But he was not George Clooney, we have to say, you know. Okay. He was quite short. He was short, yes, and he had a big nose and he had not a good skin.

But he was always well-dressed. Yeah. And hugely talented, which goes a long way. Yes. And you say, okay, he can look how he looks. I take him. Was he rich? Did he earn a lot of money through his music? He earned a lot of money, but in several years it was not so easy for him. And he had to borrow money. So he had to borrow money. So he had some friends, some aristocratic fans who helped him. Okay. Did he spend within his means or was he a bit extravagant? Did he?

Yeah. He invested a lot in his flats and he always changed also flats with his wife. And he invested a lot in his dressing, you know. When he married Constance, he stayed in Vienna. So he moved from Salzburg to Vienna. He had made some friends there who invested in him, who paid him concerts. who arranged him concerts, and that was great for him, you know. Did they have children?

Yes, they had children, but they died, unfortunately, very soon, so they were not very old. One of the things I was quite surprised to learn about Motetard is that he was in the Freemasons. Yes, because at the time, that was very important to be in these men's clubs. Like, in England, you know that there are still the gentlemen clubs. And also Freemasons. What were the Freemasons doing at the time? Because they still exist today, but I don't really know what they do. They kind of meet up and, you know, I don't know what they do.

And talk and discuss the world. And they gave him some contracts, you know. They told him, we need a concert. Can you please? And then he started to concerts and operas and whatever. Which piece of music was it that he wrote that was supposed to be about the initiation ceremony of the Freemasons? He had so many, but we have the Magic Flute,

who is one of these operas where they say from character one to character 10, they are all Freemasons. Sarastro is one of the biggest freemason in music history. So it was really, really important to him to be in this club, in this gang. Yes, and at the time there were many Freemason lodges in Vienna at the beginning,

and so he went from one to the other. which was very funny. He met several people everywhere and they loved him and he was charming and funny and that's how it started. So I'm getting an image of Mozart and he's in his 20s and he's still touring, he's producing vast amounts of work, he's married but also is having lots of affairs on the side. He's in the Freemasons going to several clubs. He is a busy, busy, busy person. How was his health physically? How was he able to keep doing this? Because that's going to be. burn you out pretty quick. Well, with time when he didn't have a work, for a certain time, everything was okay till the day when he apparently got a sort of flu. He didn't know what he had

and he developed high fever and abdominal pain and he was a little bit shocked about that. But he continued in his bed to write and he didn't. understand what happened to his body. When you read things like that about Mozart, is that how dedicated he was to his work. In the film, is it Amadeus? Amadeus, yeah. Yeah, Mozart is portrayed as kind of,

like, that he's not really taking it very seriously, and he's kind of messing about, and he doesn't really try very hard. But the truth was that he was almost fanatical about writing music, wasn't he? He was focused on his career that was the most important thing in his life. He loved music, he loved to entertain people,

So there were both sides, not only himself, but the people must be happy with what he does. And yeah, that was his life. And so at the end, there's also this thing that everybody thinks that Salieri killed him, which is not true at all. That's what I discovered. Salieri was completely, let's say, in love with this Austrian musician. He admired him. And Mozart admired Salieri. So that was completely fabricated.

Yes. And Mozart went to the concerts of Salieri, and Salieri came to the operas or concerts of Mozart. They were in touch, and Salieri visited him one day before he died. And everybody thinks, ha, ha, he gave him some poison because he didn't like him. And in fact, no, that's absolutely not true. Because after Salieri left, there were the two doctors of Mozart who came, and they took some blood of Mozart, because at the time, that was normal. They did this bloodletting thing. And then they thought, okay, everything will be okay.

And in fact, that was not good for him because he did not have the flu at the end. He had a freezel fever caused by streptocococs and stuff like that. And he didn't survive. So he died the next day, unfortunately. Did people think that Salieri had done this at the time? Was that a rumor at the time? Or did that come later?

We didn't have newspapers or media at the time, you know. So they were talking, but there were several things that they thought could have happened. But at the end, you know, what people are saying till now, they still say it now. They still say it. It could be this and that. And there was a guy who was a killer and who knew Mozart, he could have killed him. No, that's not true. That's not true.

How old is he when he died? He died young, didn't he? Yeah, he died in 1791 and he was born in 756. very, very young. Like all the great rock stars, I suppose. Yes, that's true. They died all at 27 or something like that. 27?

27, that's the... So he was a little bit older than 27, but... Did his relationship with his dad ever get better? Well, his dad died before him, and he could not even attend the funeral because he was working in Vienna, and dad died on his travel from Vienna to Salzburg. Oh, that is sad.

Did it ever improve? Did they ever make amends with one another and get their relationship back on track? Or was it always difficult? Not really. Mozart invited his dad to be member of the Freemasons and the dead did it. Because he said, Dad, you have to see that in Vienna.

It's so cool. You have to come and he came. But for the rest, no, Mozart lived his life and his dad lived his life in Salzburg. As someone that researched Mozart's very colorful and short life. What were you surprised about when you researched this? Was there anything that you discovered about him

that you did not expect to find? Well, I must say I'm the daughter for a psychologist. Okay. And I have this psychological gene in me. No, I'm always observing a little bit how is the psychology of the people. But in fact, what was very good to see is that this focus on the career,

he had this focus on his career. At the beginning, the dad was the, strategist, but after that he said there's a time, I don't need my dad, I want to do it by myself. And that's very good, I think, for the time also. You know, that's what we are talking nowadays also. When you read articles about careers of famous people, it's the same thing, in fact. And you called your book, The Real Mozart, the original King of Pop. And I'm interested in, because obviously Michael Jackson was the King of Pop.

Did you see parallels between Mozart and Michael Jackson? Because I'm interested in what you said earlier about that Mozart was very childlike and that he had a childhood touring very much like Michael Jackson and huge success. Was that a deliberate choice to make those parallels? Yes, he was also very, he wanted to be perfect. If you are on this stage of your life like Wolfgang Amadeus was, you must have this perfectionism in your life. in your blood.

And that's what Michael Jackson also had. When he danced, he could do whatever he wanted. He danced perfectly. And he was a perfect singer. A genius as well. He was a genius. I'm going to lower the tone now. When Mozart was writing his operas about,

lick my ass and writing to people about all kinds of crazy stuff, do we have a sense of what their reaction was to that? Did they write and go, oh, for goodness, he's doing it again? Or was it reciprocated? They loved it. I mean, they loved the whole package, so they loved that. too, you know. It was for them, Mozart was a quality product, I would say. So you accept everything what he does, in fact. You've got to, right? He's a genius. He's Mozart. He can write strange

letters to you if he wants to about shitting the bed. That's fine. My final question to you is, and this is a tricky one, but having researched his life and kind of brought him together, do you like Mozart the person? Do you think if you met him, you would like him? What do you think? Would you like to go for a pint with him? Would he be someone you'd be a friend with? Yes, of course.

I would love to meet him, but I would not go in bed with him. If you want to ask me that. I would not sleep with him. But I would love to be his friend or having him as a friend, of course. He was an incredible guy. And with a very interesting surrounding, all the royals, all the Arisbrocrastes, see, so... I think I probably would have slept with him, you know.

Well, maybe he would go to Los Angeles and do a little lifting or whatever, taking care of his skin and maybe he would eat differently, maybe he would only eat fruit and, I don't know. Just eat paleo and get a few tweaks here and there. Yes, I think he would have done everything to please everybody nowadays. Judith, you have been so much fun to talk to. Oh, thank you so much. If people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? Are you on social media at all?

Yes, I'm on Twitter, I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram, I have a homepage. What do you use a handle for your social media so people can look up? Emma Peel, Knight. Oh, Judith, thank you so much for talking to me today. You've been so much fun. Thank you. Thank you for listening. Thank you so much to Judith for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and subscribe, wherever that you get your podcasts.

If you want us to explore a subject or if you just fancy dropping by to say hello, you can now email us and you can get us at betwixt at history hit.com. We have got episodes on everything from Barbie as a feminist icon to the sex lies of Scottish kings all coming your way.

This podcast was edited by Tom Delagi and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again, Betwicks the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society, a podcast from History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.