Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Mussolini's Favourite Daughter

Episode Date: November 22, 2022

What do we know about the people who shared the surname Mussolini with the Italian fascist dictator?Edda Mussolini may have been Benito’s daughter, but she was also the wife of a convicted traitor, an unwilling mother and a hard-drinking socialite. To find out about Edda’s life and its connections with the Italian and German leadership, Kate spoke to Caroline Moorehead, author of the new biography ‘Edda Mussolini: The Most Dangerous Woman in Europe’.*WARNING there are adult words and themes in this episode*Produced by Charlotte Long and Sophie Gee. Mixed by Sophie Gee. Betwixt the Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society. A podcast by History Hit. For more History Hit content, subscribe to our newsletters here. If you'd like to learn even more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad-free podcasts, and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. My lovely big twixters, this is Kate Lister, and I am here once again with your fair do's warning. Today we are talking about Edda Mussolini. So we will actually be viewing into conversations around Nazis and all of those kind of things. And of course, we'll be talking about adult themes in an adultery way.

You know the drill by now. If this isn't for you, just save this one out. Otherwise, let's do it. Stalin Gaddafi. Mussolini. We've all heard of these infamous dictators and their horrific crimes. But do you ever stop and think about their families? Who were the people that shared that notorious surname? What influence did they have on these dictators and their regimes?

Ed and Mussolini was once described in a newspaper as the most influential woman in Europe. She was reportedly the key person who persuaded her father to back the Nazis in World War II. Even Hitler called her the most German of all Italians. Hmm. She also loved clothes, gambling, drinking and men. She would go on to try and blackmail senior Nazis to try and save her husband from being executed by her own dad. And that's not even the half of it, so it's fairly safe to say Edna Mussolini lived an interesting and extreme life. Today, we are going betwixt the sheets to try and find out more about Benita Mussolini's favorite daughter, Edda. What do you look for a man?

Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning it up and pushing the funny. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, what beautiful time. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Derry. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the History of Sex Scandal in Society, with me, Kate Lister. Edda Mussolini was born in Northern Italy in 1910. She experienced extreme poverty in her early life and was taught by her parents to suppress all of her emotions, to be stony-faced and stoic.

She visited her father Benito in prison as a young girl, and if that wasn't messed up enough, she was also taught how to smuggle secret documents into him. Today I'm speaking to biographer Caroline Moorhead about her latest book, Edda Mussolini, the most dangerous woman in Europe. How did the favourite daughter of Benito Mussolini, the socialist inventor of the term fascism who came to power 100 years ago this year,

become so dangerous? Buckle up, kids, we are going in. And welcome to Betwixt the show. Sheets Caroline Moorhead. I am thrilled to be talking to you today. Thank you very much. I'm not only have you written amazing biographies of fascinating people, but what I love about, the one I'm talking to you about today is somebody that I wasn't really aware of, that somebody that I knew very, very little about. So they're always my favorite ones. And we're talking about Edda Mussolini's favorite daughter. Absolutely. Indeed. I

didn't really know much about her before I started writing the book. I just wanted to find somebody who would take me through the fascist years be a sort of backbone for the narrative. And I thought she was perfect because she was her lifespan or the serious part of her life exactly corresponds with fascism. So I thought she would be perfect. And then I started looking to her. And I found this extraordinarily, complicated, fascinating person with this sort of tragic life. I think the thing that kind of blew my mind about it is what the hell is it like to be the daughter of Benito Mussolini? Like that's just, how did you discover her? So her life maps onto fascism really nicely, but he had other children, there are other dictators or other children. What was it about her that

that made you go, that's the story that I need to tell? I think it was because she was his first child. She was born five years before her next brother. She was totally taken up by him. She was mad about him. He was mad about her. He took her everywhere with him. So she spent a lot of time crawling under his desk in his newspaper office. And it was clear from the beginning that she was a very interesting figure. She was very strong-minded. She was almost feral. She was known as the wild little horse, the Cavalina Matta. And at every turn in her life, her reactions were so interesting. Did she, this sounds like a really obvious question to ask, what was her childhood like? Did she have a happy, well-adjusted upbringing as the child of Benito Mussolini and fascist Italy or not?

No, she didn't. She had an entirely impoverished childhood. Her parents were not married. They lived in great discomfort and considerable poverty. Mussolini went away to the First World War. They never had any money. He was constantly being put in prison for political agitation. So really, until 19202, which is when Mussolini came to power, they lived. lived a pretty basic life. And then between 22 and 29, i.e., between the ages of 12 and 17, she lived in Milan because Mussolini didn't really want to take the family to Rome after he became Prime Minister. I mean, he just had a better time on his own. So they were all left behind in the north. So it was not until she was 17 that she really properly became the very granddaughter of

the dictator. And in your book, you say that they kind of instruct her in a moment. coldness and the principles of stoicism. That doesn't sound very squishy and cuddly and very jacchanori. And what was that? What were they doing? I think it was a family that didn't really express its emotions in public. Meals were totally silent because Musslini liked to eat very, very fast and didn't really want to have any conversation. Wow. Raquelie, Edda's interesting mother, was totally unsocial.

She was totally ill-versed in social life. She was effectively a peasant woman. from the north and she never changed. So even in Rome, there was this very restricted family life, if you like. And certainly Mussolini wanted his daughter to be brave. There's a story that when she was a small child, she was terrified of frogs. I mean, who knows whether this story is true. So he went away and got hold of frogs and he made her hold them,

saying no Mussolini child must ever be afraid. Wow. Okay. So it's sounding like the recipes for a Dr. Phil episode already. It's sounding very dysfunctional. But she loved her father, didn't she? They were extremely close. What was her relationship like with her mother?

It was never good with her mother. Never, never good. It was partly because she was so close to Mussolini. It was partly because I think in many ways she was too like her mother. They had terrific fights. Edda always stood up for her father. And indeed, that was their relationship really forever until after the great sort of tragic dynumor of their lives.

They were never close. And one of the details that I read was that as a very small child, she would visit her father in prison because he was regularly imprisoned, and that she had been trained how to hug him so she could sneak secret documents to him. That's right, so she was put into a sort of little apron so that she would hug him and he would slip his column for the newspaper into her apron pocket and then they would leave and it would be published. I mean, I can't quite get my head around that. It just seems so. So I guess it worked, but wow. So from a very young age, is she aware of fascism? Because it sounds like her mother kind of like a sort of a peasant woman from the north. It almost sort of just happened around her.

But was Edda well-schooled in the fascism of her father, or did that come later on? No, she was quite well-schooled because as a girl, he would take her to the political meetings. Wow. So she saw quite a lot of fascist violence as she was growing up. I mean, Italy was a very violent place immediately after the First World War. The returning soldiers had been promised jobs and greater prosperity, and it wasn't given to them. And there was a great deal of civil violence before Mussolini actually came to power. So she's seeing, I mean, everyone's seeing a lot of trauma and everybody's seeing a lot of political turbulence,

but she clearly adheres to the fascist principles, doesn't she? Well, yes and no, that's what made her so fascinating. I mean, as part of fascism, Mussolini imposed up. absolute ways of behaviour on Italian people. It was totalitarianism in the sense of behaviour as well. So they had uniforms to wear. On Saturdays everybody had to take up a sport or a leisure activity. All the children were put into little fascist bands.

Women had absolutely no power and no jobs, no good jobs. They were meant to be mothers and wives, mothers of little future warriors. And it was deeply frowned on by Mussolini that women shouldn't smoke, shouldn't wear trash. shouldn't go dancing. Now, Edda somehow was above this. She smoked, she danced, she drove, she drank, she drank heavily, fascist women were not allowed to drink. So both then and later, when she marries Charno, who became the foreign minister, they are both the emblems of fascist rule and also somehow above it. They don't really obey its rules. They don't really believe in its rules. That's so interesting to see that conflict because when I was reading about all these

things that she did, I mean, she seemed like she would be, I'm not sure if the life of the party is the right word, because it seemed to sort of veer into excess, and she gambled excessively, and she drank excessively, and she sort of seems to have had quite a troubled relationship with a lot of things, but is there any records of what she thought about how her father was imposing the exact opposite on good fascist women, and the fact that she wasn't doing any of that? No, there are more accounts by other people who see her doing all these other things. She herself was not much of a letter writer, and though she did write her old biography later, it's quite partial.

The letters that exist are the later love letters between her and her husband. But in those early days, you really have to interpret how she felt from how she behaved and how she was seen to behave by other people. I think one of my favourite quotes, I'm going to get this a little bit wrong now, but was when Mussolini said, I can bend Italy to my will, I will never bend Edda. That was absolutely right. That was when somebody protested about some of her excessive behaviour.

That's what he answered. I mean, Mussolini himself wasn't adverse to a bit of excessive behaviour, was he? He certainly wasn't. I mean, there was, again, so much about the Mussolini family is myth, really. But his valet later said that he had to have a different woman every day. Now, I'm sure this wasn't true, but it was the sort of spirit of how he lived. And then when Edda was about 10, he took up with a very long-term mistress called Claretto Patachi. And that went on until Mussolini died.

And she was very jealous. So when Mussolini had other women, she, the mistress, was furious. No, he did not behave well. No, he didn't. He's always reminded him, and I suppose we have to keep reminding ourselves, he is a dictator responsible for the deaths of millions of people without making it seem too lighthearted. But there's always been, like, I've seen parallels between him and Putin, like all the images with his shirt off

and very, very conscious about how he appears and this super masculine man and he was very, very image conscious, wasn't it? All throughout his life. Yes, he certainly was. I mean, the cult of the duchy was everywhere. There were pictures and photographs and he was on stamps and he was, you know,

the whole family was much photographed. Edda was much photographed. And indeed, I mean, the most famous picture of him is driving around Rome in an open car with a lion cub. I mean, it was this image of this sort of sporty, strong, healthy dictator that was extremely important to fascism. Yeah, I suppose it would be, wouldn't it? I mean, if you're going to be told what you have to wear

and where you have to go and the sport you have to do on a Sunday, you need a really strong, quite brutal leader to do that. But how did Edith see herself in this? So she has this kind of very complex, turbulent childhood. But then she sort of in the way that Ivana Trump becomes like the nation's first daughter in America. I'm not comparing Ivana Trump to Mussolini's daughter, everyone, but there's that kind of like suddenly the first daughter is now playing this big part in fascistice.

And what was her image and how did she cultivate it? Did she play the part of the dutiful daughter in public? Well, again, it was mixed. When she was 19, she married Charno, who was a aspiring diplomat, and they went off to Shanghai. So between the ages of 19 and 22, she was in Shanghai. And she loved it because Shanghai was everything she most loved. It was racy and funny and colourful and fun. And Rome was stayed, provincial, do everything she most hated.

But when she was 22, she was summoned back to Rome with Charno. And her mother had made it absolutely plain. She didn't want to be Mussolini's hostess in any way at all. So Edda, very young, 22, 23, became the sort of hostess, the sort of face of fascism. And because she spoke English, Charno spoke several foreign languages, they looked very personable, they dressed extremely well, they became the bridge with old Italy.

Because the rough and ready fascists who come in Mussolini's wake were very unattractive to the old Italian nobility, if you like. Now, Edna and Chano were able to bridge this gap, so they were civilised, as it were. So in that sense, she was very useful. And in 1935, when she was again, you have to remember, she was 25, Mussolini sent her to England to take the temperature as to whether the British would do anything if he invaded Abyssinia.

And she met MacDonald, she met the king. Again, you have to keep remembering she was 25. And she went back to Eklie and said to her father, no, they won't do anything. And indeed, they didn't. At 25, it's so young, I think what I was doing when I was 25, not this. But tell me about her marriage. Tell me about who she married and what was this relationship like?

He was called Galiatso Chano. He was the son of one of Mussolini's top supporters. And Mussolini had ennobled the father. So Galiatsa was Conte. He was dapper. He was vain. He was clever. He was ambitious.

For a moment, they might have had a really good marriage. But the moment they got to Shanghai, he was very unfaithful. She made a resolution during one. stormy night that she would not be jealous and then she embarked on affairs of her own. So right until the last agonising couple of years, it was a distant but functioning marriage in that she did everything that was called upon her, she went to the receptions and so on, but they led fairly distinct lives. How do you train yourself not to be jealous?

I mean, that's what she should have written a book about, really. That would have sold in the millions. How did she do that? She just decided I'm just not going to be jealous and just detached from it. Well, I think it tells you something about her character. It's like not being frightened. It's like after she'd held the frog, she wasn't frightened. And all through the Mussolini lives, this is repeated.

You know, mauselinis are strong, tough, determined, and they don't go under. And who knows? I don't know how people do it. But all I can tell you is I think she succeeded pretty well until the end. And who was she has her. having affairs with? Do we know who she was enjoying some activity time with? Well, the best and, I mean, the two most interesting, when she was in Shanghai, she had an affair with one of the warlords. And there is wonderful material on that. He used to take her off

to villages and they would go out and there were pictures of them together. And he was one of the serious Chinese warlords. But much later, she had an affair with Emilio Pucci, the Italian designer. Wow. And he was very important. life because he really helped save her when the moment came. Those are the two best known. In between, I think she was fairly discreet. I think she picked up people. There's just evidence that she had affairs, but I don't really know who she had them with. She must have had to been very, very discreet about that, I suppose. These are high state games that they're playing. And you know, when I first read that she looked a lot like Mussolini, that she had his eyes. And my first

thought was, oh, God, that's not a good thing. And then I saw a picture of her. Yes, you really does. She really does. And she's also, and I hate to say it's by any kind of fascist, but she is really beautiful. Yes. Whether you could actually say she was beautiful, I'm not sure in the flesh, but she was certainly very handsome. Better word. And some of those photographs that are in the book do show a very glamorous woman. She was very glamorous. Glamorous. That's better, glamorous and strong, yet striking, I think. And she had those eyes that he had. Was she like him in other way? So she looks like him, the get-along. Was she like him in other respects?

They used to argue. I mean, she was the only one who really dared to argue. None of the other children stood up to him. She stood up to him. It's rather hard to say, isn't it? I mean, he was a wonderful journalist and he was definitely a political thinker,

which she was not. She was instinctive. She was shrewd. She was a very shrewd judge of people. And one of the ways in which I think she had influence was that she became his confluence. and she would talk about the people around him and she would say, but she was watch this and do that and so on. So she had a shrewdness about people, but not always. This is what makes her so enigmatics.

You know, when she first went to Germany, which was in 1936, she fell entirely for the Germans. She fell for Himmler and Gerling and Goebbels. She thought they were wonderful at first. She seriously turned on them, but for that moment she seemed to have had no judgment. So she had, She is constantly these antithesis. It's difficult always to pin down what she's going to do, which of course makes her so interesting because you arrive at a new situation. And you don't know what she's going to do. And as a writer, that's great fun.

I'll be back with Caroline after a short break. Hi there. I'm Don Wildman, the host of the brand new podcast, American History Hit. Join me twice a week as I explore the past to help us understand the United States today. You'll hear how code-bride. Uncovered secret Japanese plans for the Battle of Midway. Visit Chief Poetan as he prepares for war with the British. See Walt Disney accuse his former colleagues of being communists and uncover the hidden history that lies beneath Central Park.

From pre-colonial America to independence, slavery to civil rights, the gold rush to the space race. I'll be speaking to leading experts to delve into America's past. New episodes dropping every Monday and Thursday. So join me on American History Hit, a podcast by History Hit. A little bit about the relationship that she had with the Nazis. How close are we talking here? Were they staying in each other's houses?

Because, I mean, a lot of people were impressed with Nazi Germany before it was revealed exactly what was going on. Was she one of those? Or was she aware of exactly what was going on? Was she aware of the anti-Semitism and the real horrors of it? What was it that she thought was really great to start with? Well, either she did. know or she wanted not to know. I think she wanted not to know. When she went there in the summer

of 36, Berlin was full of swastikas, the anti-Semitism was absolutely everywhere, Germany was already in the hands of stormtroopers. So it's not as if it wasn't there to be seen. I think she chose not to see it at that stage. She then didn't go back to Germany until later so that she didn't have it in front of her. But on the other hand, what she really felt was that Italy needed to be strong. Italy, like Germany, had suffered from the Versailles Treaty and, you know, Mussolini was the man who was going to restore an empire to Italy, was going to put Italy back among the major powers. And I think Edna came to think that the best way for that to happen

would be for Mussolini to get close to Hitler and to ally the two countries. Wow, bad call on Edda's part there, I think, to say the least. But didn't Herman Goering came to stay with her? and apparently he named his daughter after her, is that right? That's right, that's absolutely right. I mean, they were friends to that extent. However, if you read the diaries of the Germans writing about Edda, at first they thought, yes, she's terrific.

She's this strong daughter of Mussolini, but they turned against her. I mean, there's a very sort of comic self-serving entry in Gering's diary in which he says, of course, the Fuhrer does not like Edda the way he likes my wife, because my wife is, charming and simple and Edda is overmade up and strident. So on the surface, they caught her. Behind, they were groaningly against her,

because of course they were very against her husband, Jano, A, because they thought he was vain and foolish, but B, because he was clearly more pro the Allies than he was the Germans. Oh, wow, that's a family conflict brewing, isn't it? Was he, what did they say was effeminate and weak? Is that true what they said about him? It's so hard to say he was a bit fat

He was vain He was beautifully dressed Hitler took against the blue cream He put on his hair No I think that's going too far But he was snobbish I mean I don't wish to run him down Because in the end he was very brave

But he never saw eye to eye To the Germans And particularly not with Ribbentrop Yeah And I think that he was proven right In the end wasn't he Without a doubt Chano and Eddo had children

Didn't they? What was the relationship with the children What were they doing when Edda was off staying with the Goerings and this kind of thing? Where were they? They had nannies. They had nannies from the beginning. She was not a good mother. She was never a good mother.

She didn't awfully want the children. She became very fond of them, but she didn't play with them. And in the house, in a way, it was Charno who imposed the discipline. And Edda was meant to be there to be fond of them and have nice times with them. But she didn't actually look after them very much. Which meant that when, in the end, she was... She was forced into their company for three years when they were quite young. She found it extremely difficult and she complained a great deal.

Wow. And I think we said earlier that Edda is, she has a shrewdness about her. I thought that was reflected excellently in one of her quotes, which again, I'm going to get a bit wrong, but she was something like enjoy every day because the guillotine waits for all of us, which I thought was an interesting because she was aware of what can happen and the downfall and how quickly it could come, which I was very impressed with.

But let's talk a little bit about the down. of Edda and the Mussolini's. And what happened during the war? What happened was that in 1939, Eden went to Rome to talk to Mussolini. And the hope then was that the Italians would come in on the British Allied side. And he thought the meeting went very well.

It was a feature of the times that they were really not communicating because it did nothing to move Mussolini further into the camp of the Allies. On the contrary, At this point, he began to see that his future lay with the Germans. You have to remember that at that point, it was thought highly likely that the Germans would win the war. So when war is announced in 1939, Mussolini havers and stays neutral.

But in May, June 1940, when the Germans swept through France, Mussolini feels he has to join and go to war, because at that point it looks as if the war is going to have won shortly by the Germans, and Mussolini would like to share in the spoils of the war. So for the first couple of years, that's what happens. The Germans and the Italians are fighting side by side. Edda becomes a nurse. Now this again is a rather improbable bit in her life because she joins the Red Cross, she goes to all the war fronts,

and she's an excellent nurse, and people really like her. Wow. So all this, again, it's another side to her character. She herself says, you know, it was wonderful feeling I had a proper job to do. So that takes you to 1943. Summer of 1943, there is a coup against Mussolini. 19 of his senior followers plot against him. And one of these is Charno, his son-in-or, Edda's husband.

Wow. And in a very famous late-night session in Rome, they vote him out. Now, for a moment, it seems that they're not able to do that. But the king, who has been unbelievably weak until now, seizes the opportunity and gets rid of Mussolini, has him arrested, he's sent off to an island in the south of Italy, and the plotters think they're going to be all right, but actually they're in real danger. Very sensibly, most of them flee, but as fascism crumbles everywhere, Charno thinks he's safe because he's married to Mussolini's daughter.

So he doesn't flee. and after about a month, because things are getting really nasty in Italy, after the fascists have fallen, they go to Germany to meet Mussolini, who by now has been rescued by Hitler. At this point, Edra and Charno begin to think that all might not be well, because they think they're going to be able to go on to Spain. And Edda goes to see Hitler, who says, yes, we will arrange for you to have a plane, but nothing happens, and they are effectively prisoner. and at certain point, Charno thinks, I'll go back to Italy and I'll join the Air Force and I'll redeem myself.

So he flies back to Italy and on German orders. He's arrested. Wow. And this by now is the north of Italy, which is again of fascist government under Mussolini. And he's held in prison with four of the other 19 plotters who've been caught. And there's a trial. Now, at this point, Ada suddenly sees that she has... has to do something. And perhaps most interesting, she suddenly falls in love with Charno.

And there are these wonderful letters between them. She's not really allowed to see him, but they write to each other. And it is as if the 15, 20 years that have gone by fade away. And it becomes a genuine love of her. And Charno has written these diaries. And everybody wants these diaries because they're said to be full of incriminating material about the Germans. And the Germans especially want them. And Eder makes a deal with the Germans that Charneau's life will be spared and they will get the diaries. And in an extraordinary twist of affairs, Hitler, who wasn't in on this, gets to hear of it, says that he will shoot anybody who has anything to do with it. Wow. And while Edda is thinking that all is well, Charno is shot. Mussolini does not save him. Mussolini could have saved him, but

doesn't. Meanwhile, Edda has fled to Switzerland with the diaries wrapped around her waist. It's through the border, is taken in, asks for asylum. She'd sent her children already to Switzerland. She meets up with the children and a priest arrives and tells her that Charno is dead. And it's an extraordinary dramatic moment. She takes the children up into the mountains. It's beautifully clear and she tells and what's happened. And she tells the unvarnished truth, because she says he's going to tell them. At that age, they're aged about 10 and 5 and 7 or something. They're very young. And then she stays in Switzerland, but she never speaks to her father again. And he courts her, he sends people, he sends money, but she never speaks to him again. And of course, 18 months later, he is shot.

So she has lost her father and her husband And everything she ever had or owned And she's 35 and she has three small children My God Why didn't Mussolini save Chana Was that vengeance? Was that like against the plotters? Was that?

Because it's his favourite daughter It's quite a statement, isn't it? It's to not save your daughter's husband The father of your grandchildren When you could Even if he's voted against you That's still a really strong act Why did he do that?

Well, people say it was his last act of cowardice vis-à-vis the Germans. Hitler was insisting on it. Right. He said he never got the plea for clemency. He could have if he'd wanted to. He could have spared them. He would say that Italy needed to be strong and that for Hitler this was something that had to take place.

And I think he'd just let it happen. How he thought he could retain any relationship with Edda, I don't know. Did he give the order? Or was it kind of like when Elizabeth I first accidentally ordered Mary Queen of Scots to be executed. You know, that kind of like, oh, I didn't mean it. I shouldn't have said, like, did he give the direct order? Or was that the Germans that did it?

Well, there was a trial, and the trial voted to execute them. On the other hand, it's absolutely clear that they went into the trial, already having decided that it would be a death sentence. There was never any doubt about it. And yes, of course, the Germans lent on the trial. You know, however much everybody stood back and said, this is an impartial judicial. It wasn't.

It was a foregone conclusion. So she's in Switzerland and by this point her father is dead. The war has ended. Her husband has been shot. She's got three children by herself. What earth does she do after this? Because everyone's trying to move away from any association with those things and she's the daughter of Benita Mussolini. What does she do after all of this fell apart? Well, it's interesting what she did. There she was in Switzerland. She wanted to stay in Switzerland at the end of the war. But the Swiss, who had taken in quite a lot of the former fascists were dead keen on getting rid of them. Oh.

So they just didn't want all these troublesome fascists still in Switzerland. So they handed Edda over to the Allies on the understanding that she would not be executed. But she herself thought it was highly likely. I mean, to be Mussolini in Italy in 1945 was not good news. No. In fact, she was sent south to the island of Lipari, which had previously been the jail for a whole lot of the anti-fascists. and she was under house arrest there. And this is where another rather wonderful twist and turn in this story,

she falls in love with a local communist partisan. Wow. So there you have this fascist socialite and this partisan communist. And she's eventually pardoned and can go back to Rome and have our children back. And she would have liked it to go on. But really, it didn't have a future. The partisan did not want to go to Rome. There was no future.

And so you'll find her back in Rome in 1947, 8, 9, with her children, in her original flat, which she gets back. She's cut by a lot of people, a lot of people won't have anything to do with her. She becomes a sort of emblem for the neo-fascist parties. She's not political. She drinks too much. And I decided really to end the book at that point, because though she lives for another 30 years, nothing more happens to her. And this Greek tragedy, which starts in a slum in Predapio in northern Italy, takes her through these incredible adventures.

And she has this great tragic series of events. And that really encompasses her life. I mean, most touchingly and revealingly, many years later, she told a television journalist when he asked her about her father, she said he was the only man I really loved. Oh, Ed. And it was a very sad, if you like, codicile to this extraordinary, complicated life. To talk about daddy issues is something of an understatement with this, isn't it?

I mean, she did become a figurehead for neo-fascist movements. And was there any suggestion of how she felt about that? Like you said, that she wasn't political. Was she involved in any kind of fascist emotion, just sort of aware that they were there? She tried to stand well back from them. But her son, both her sons, belonged to the resurgent. in neo-fascism, which was the MSI party, and then became other names and has simply gone on in different forms.

They kept the family house at Pradapio, which is near Fodli in the north, in Emilio Romagna, and her mother went back and lived in the family house. The family house, after her mother's death, became a sort of museum-come shrine, which is what it is today. Mussolini emphasis and cult never really died away. Italy is full, not of portraits, because they aren't anywhere there, but buildings, because Mussolini built enormously. The fascist style is all over Italy. Every town will have a huge

fascist building in it. There are entire new towns which were fascist. So the signs, the outer signs of fascism have never really gone away. And on the 28th of October every year, which is the anniversary of the march on Rome, a hundred years this year, there are huge marches and celebrations and people carry fascist banners and in predapio you can buy fascist anything you like, calendars, teapots, replicas of Mussolini's hats. In this museum shrine there is Edda's bedroom which is furnished with all her toys she had as a child and her clothes are hanging in the cupboard. And it's an extraordinary site in modern Italy that you have this still this sort of distant cult of Mussolini. And one of her sons wrote a book about the experience,

possibly the most extraordinary title I've ever heard a book to have. What was it? When Grandpa had Daddy shot, what you have to remember is a great thing in Italy is everybody gives the interview and writes books. And there are all these popular magazines like Epoca, which run, as it were, photo stories, and it started after the war.

And everybody, sons, relations, Mussolini's, Charno's, Charno's valets, etc. Give these long interviews with all these photographs, masses of photographs. And of course, all the Mussolini wrote books or had books ghosted. Edda wrote a couple of books, had a couple of books ghosted. Raqeale had several books ghosted. And two of Raquelie, i.e. Mussolini and Rakedi's grandchildren,

wrote books about their grandmother. So there is this sort of huge literature of the far right of the Mussolini's. Are there still Mussolini family members wandering around today with the name? There must be. I've never thought of it until that's the exact second. Do they have anything to do with politics? Yes. Two of the granddaughters are involved in current politics for the far right.

And I asked one of them if they had thought of changing their names. And she said at school it was a bit difficult, but no, we never changed our names. And they call themselves Mussolini. Charno's call themselves Chano. I mean, you wouldn't see that in Germany. I'm not sure that people would wish to call themselves Hitler and Himmler. But then, of course, you'll have to remember that for a long time, Mussolini did good for Italy. It isn't the same as Hitler.

Yes, he did terrible things. Yes, a lot of people died on account of his policies. That's true. There are differences. What's her legacy? And how have you ended your relationship with her? I suppose what I'm asking is, do you like her? I think if you're a writer, it's very important not to fall out with your subject. If you're going to spend two and a half years with somebody,

you don't want to dislike them all the way through. And I think when you read biographies of people written by somebody who's disliked their subject, I think a sort of mean-spiritedness creeps in, which makes for bad reading, I think. What did I think about her? I thought a whole mixture of things. I mean, at times I admired her.

I admire her courage. I admire her refusal to be afraid. I admired her her single-mindedness. I disliked her as a mother. You know, it was a mixture of things. But actually, it's not a bad way to spend three years with somebody about whom you're constantly thinking, oh my God, is she doing that?

Or what a sensible way to react? I mean, it's like the complexity of anybody, really. And she was incredibly complex. That comes through so clearly in the book. And I think that anyone's reaction to it is also complex and that is a really powerful thing that comes through. I could talk to you about this forever and ever, but I can't. I'm not allowed to. But I suppose I will finish off by saying, if people want to know more about you and about your work,

where can they find you? Well, I do quite a lot of reviewing. I've written quite a lot of books of history. I write a lot about Italy. Italy and the Second World War and the 20s and 30s are really my subject. Because I grew up in Italy, so Italian is my second language. Wow. That's why you sound so amazing. when you speak the Italian names and I sound like a Yorkshire woman attempting to butcher the language entirely.

Give us the full title of the book so people can go and run and buy this and get themselves acquainted with Edda. The book is called Edda Mussolini, the most dangerous woman in Europe, which is a quote from a newspaper. And one of the things I've been rather attacked for is saying that she was dangerous

where clearly she was completely not dangerous. Actually, it's the fine line between influence and power. she was very influential both on her father and her husband and I didn't make that up that was a headline in a newspaper and you have to remember that in 1939 she was on the cover of Time magazine so all across Europe and America

she was being talked about as this extremely important woman Wow Oh Caroline Mohe, thank you so much for taking time to tell me about this extraordinary woman that you have been absolutely mesmerising to listen to. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you so much for listening and thank you to Caroline Moorhead for coming on and sharing

your time and your research. It was just fascinating, wasn't it? And if you like what you've heard, please don't forget to like, review and subscribe wherever it is that you get your podcasts. I know everyone always asks you to do that, but it really, really does help us. And we've got episodes on the history of the clitoris, cultural sex myths and Kassanova all coming your way. So I will see you next time. This podcast includes music by Epidemic Sound.