Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Nzinga: Warrior Queen Who Fought Colonialism

Episode Date: July 8, 2022

Warrior. Diplomat. Queen.From fighting alongside her father and negotiating with the Portuguese on her brother’s behalf, to campaigning for the freedom of Ndongo and Matamba until her death aged 82, Queen Nzinga’s life was full to the brim with drama.So who was the Mother of Angola? Why did she have to lead an army for three decades? And what is her legacy?To get some answers, Kate spoke to Astrid Madimba and Chinny Ukata, the authors of a new book ‘It’s a Continent’ *WARNING There are adult themes and discussion of racism in this episode*Produced by Charlotte Long and Sophie Gee. Edited & Mixed by Thomas Ntinas.Betwixt the Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society.A podcast by History Hit.Vote for Betwixt the Sheets in the Listener’s Choice Award at The British Podcast Awards Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? We'll sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles.

Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello everybody, this is your fair do's warning. On today's episode, not only are we talking about smutty rudeness, we are also touching on the subjects of racism, infanticide and colonialism. So it's going to be a tough one. This is your fair do's warning.

Get out now while you still can. If you're still with me, let's do it. Imagine leading an army for 30 years. Imagine doing it in the 17th century. Imagine doing it. a woman. Now imagine that you've done all that and there aren't hundreds and hundreds of books written about you and several major films about your life. Well, there is one incredible woman who fits this bill. Her name was Queen

Nasinga and today betwixt the sheets we're gonna find out more. What do you look for a man? Oh money of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning it up and pushing the funny. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, I'm beautiful damn. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Terry. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixer Sheets,

the history of sex scandal in society, with me, Kate Lister. In 16th and 17th century, Nodongo and Matamba, modern-day Angola, Queen Nasinga came to power. First as the beloved daughter of a king, and then, as an indispensable intelligence diplomat. And then, as a queen fighting Portuguese, colonialists and holding them off for decades. She was an absolute badass. Of course we want to find out more. And today I'm so lucky to be joined by Astrid Medimba and Chini Ukata, authors of Itsa

Continent, where they highlight an incredible story from each of the countries in Africa. From chair power play to murderous revenge, I can't believe I've never heard this story before. Let's get into it. So hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheet. I'm ridiculously excited to be talking to Cheney and Astrid about your research. And hello, thank you so much for being here with me. Thank you for having us. Yeah, we're excited. We're excited.

There's one thing that I love, about I love history, but it's when you find people in history that you just kind of start to read about them and then you're like, how is there not a movie? How do people not know about this woman? I think that's just been our whole, like, process with the podcast and everything. It's just been like, how do people not know about? all of this information. So it's so nice being able to share that. I just sort of find myself and I was reading about this particular woman that you guys have been researching and shouting to

the rooftops about Queen and Zinger. And she has blown my tiny brain. She is incredible. Can you tell us a little bit about who she was? So she was the queen in the area that's now known today as Angola. At the time, it was the kingdoms of Matamba and Andoal. Ando And yes, she was a badass, basically. She should have been made into a Disney movie, 100%. They would never have made this into a Disney movie. She was far too... There was no being kissed by a prince.

Oh, that's true. There was no prisoners being kissed here. No, you're right. And also, the, like, sibling rivalry with her brother, I just feel like... There was a lot going on within that family. She was a real badass, and this wasn't a woman that you'd want to cross. Was she? No.

Definitely not at all. Not at all. So she's ruling of a modern day Angola. When was this? When was she born? So she was born in 1583. So really long time ago in those 10s. Oh my God. So how did you first learn about her? Where did you first read about her?

So I think with the podcast that we do, it's a continent, we research. We kind of take a country, pick a particular time in its history and really focus on it. And so she just like was one of those, I think, Chinna, you kind of, her, didn't you? That was part of your elements. And yeah, we discovered her. And I think for us, it's really important to just find these women and their stories, because I think sometimes our

stories and the role of women within history does get lost. And we always try and make a conscious effort to be like, no, okay, there were badass women just like, really just the impact that she had as well in terms of protecting the kingdom and stuff was just amazing to see. And, yeah, we just felt like it was

really important to rave and share her story. When I first read about it, this is the first encounter that I had about her. And I've got a quote here. And I've got a feeling that this might be bullshit, but you can put me right if it's not. And this was the first thing I ever read about it, then we go, hello, just give me a sec. And the quote is that she maintains 50 to 60 concubines whom she dresses like women, even though they are young men. Did she have a Harim? Oh, wow.

You know what? I wouldn't put it past her Because the thing is, whenever we find within our sort of pre-colonial research on the continent, there were just so many stories and there are so many different and often conflicted and often some are a bit of mythical, because when you pass the stories down, you kind of want to make it excited. So you're going to add a little bit of spice to it. This was written by a Dutch guy who had never actually been to Africa. Oh, okay.

Which kind of brings me on a point is like, how do you guys research this? Because there must be a lot of white guys talking shit about their children, frankly. Yeah, I think it's all about we try and find an array of sources, but always up front about this is other people's interpretations. And being open that actually with history, like Cheney said, different people interpret it differently. And I think as long as you can share that like, this woman exists, she did do some fantastic things. And there are elements where, you know, people have added destiny set, their own spice to it and their own embellishment and stuff. But I think it just highlights just the importance of discovering and going out there and actually really finding out who are there and the kind of people who had an impact, you know. Because this was definitely not covered during medieval history and school for me.

No. No. No. This was sitting wading through the War of the Roses and where was this? Where was this? Yeah. Might have made lessons more exciting. It would have perked everybody at, wouldn't it? My God. And just looking at like her encounter with the Portuguese as well. Do you know what I mean? Like it's very easy. You kind of think, okay, maybe she was as a woman very much like, no, I will respect what they see. But her first encounter with them, she was like, no, if I'm not going to get a seat, I'm going to get my own seat.

So, yeah, I love that. You know, we always talk about a seat at the table. but can you tell me a bit about what was going on in Africa and about the relationship with the Portuguese at the time because that's quite important to this story? Yeah, so even before the Berlin Conference of 1884 to 85, which kind of put the African countries into the state that they are in today, the Portuguese were really making inroads into the continent. And unfortunately at the time, they were starting to trade enslaved people and ship people off to Brazil and other colonies. And Queen Inzinga was really instrumental in blocking these raids so she like stopped some of these from happening through military action through

siding with the Dutch because the Dutch one piece of the pie too because everyone was kind of scrambling and one of the encounters was really when she met with the Portuguese initially and she was meant to be a diplomat because she spoke through in Portuguese so she was often used to have the conversations with them and then they didn't give her a chair because they were like well you're African so why why do you need to see you know it's just yeah if that And obviously, I mean, so she got one of her servants to, like, sit down and pretend to be a seat and she just sat down. So that was what she did. Although, interestingly, some historical accounts do say that she killed the servant at the end.

So again. Don't fuck with this woman. Definitely not. Definitely not. One moment you're a seat, the next thing, you're dead. Do you know what I mean? It's so difficult when you find characters like this in history because you're like, oh my God, she is a medieval black queen from Africa

who is blocking the slave trade and you're like, yeah, go on, go on. And then she also used her servants as a footstool and then killed them afterwards. Oh, oh. Yeah. Take the rough with the smooth. But, my God. Definitely. Tell me a bit about the family that she came from.

What's her origin story? So really with her, her dad was really like, because he was, as a king at the time, and they were really close, had a really good relationship. But then when he passed away, her brother took the throne. So it was a really interesting family dynamic between the two of them, because actually I think her brother, there's a sense of jealousy there in terms of like how close she was with the dad. And so, yeah, and I think there's an element of like her brother killed the son.

Killed her son. Oh. Yeah, according to the accounts, because he was scared that the son would grow up and sort of try and take over. But yeah, because her brother wasn't very diplomatic. She didn't really have, her brains didn't really know how to stop, like, slave raids and things like that. So she was often sent to mediate between the Portuguese. But yeah, it was a bit of a twisted family dynamic. So when the father died, did the throne go to her or to the brother?

So initially it went to her brother, but he was quite an oppressive ruler over his land. So he lost the support of his people and eventually his family. as well. So some rumours also say that he killed his father because he wanted to take the throne for himself. So there is also that element as well. It's tough at the top, isn't it? Yeah, definitely. Her brother wasn't ready for it or capable to take on that position, be it if the father died or, like, you know, killed a father or whatever. And I also think there was definitely a strong sense of jealousy because the way in which the dad was raising in Zingo wasn't to be your timet. kind of like queen and princess and being kind of pretty and all of that. It was very much

she was training her to be strong and be a warrior. And I think that definitely played a role in the brother being like, okay, if I don't take this now, then I don't know what's going to happen. Yeah. That's interesting. So she wasn't being raised in a kind of be a good girl, do some embroidery. No, it was like, the dad was like, I'm going to teach you how to fight, you know? The dad actually kind of taught her. Wow. She grew up learning those warrior skills and even as she entered her 60s, she was still leading her people into battle.

Oh, I love this woman. Yeah. If this isn't made into a film, I don't know, like. How is it not a film? Who do you want to play her in the film? Ooh, someone like, Letitia Wright from Black Panther. Oh, that's a good one. See, for me, because I just love her incredibly, it has to be.

to be Viola Davis. She's just amazing and everything. And it's just everything. Every time I see her at anything, I'm just like, oh my God, I want to be. She would do that. She would bring you to tears with that scene of sitting on a servant and then killing them afterwards. So she's being schooled in like diplomacy and languages, presumably, and military tactics,

which is impressive. What was her father's relationship with the Portuguese? to get a sense like what was going on with the slave trade at the time? At the time, it's a bit of a complicated sort of history within enslavement because even though some of these ancient African empires did agree to sell these people, I don't think it was anticipated the depth of the situation and that for generations, this is what, you know, they would have been enslaved for many, many generations to come. But at the time, the king was accepting limited trading within the Portuguese. But then the Portuguese were continuing to push

further and further in. So this kind of leads to the breaking up of and the weakening of empires, which kind of gave way to the way that the continent is today. Because I have heard this argument, and it's a stupid argument, but it's an argument put forward by, well, racist dickheads, but there's always somebody who tries to say Africa sold people to enslavement. And that is, it's partially true, but it's certainly not the whole truth, which is another reason why stories like And Zingers is really powerful because it shows there's resistance that it wasn't what people think it was and that it's just far, far, far, far more complex. I think that's really important what you're saying there is there was slavery. There was slavery all over the world and many different people were enslaved.

But they didn't realize what the scale of what this was or what was actually going on. Yeah, often people would be put into enslavement for the purposes of repaying loans or, you know, that kind of thing, or seven years and they'd be released. it wasn't a case that someone would then be inherited, would then be because they were born or breeded for the purposes of more, like how they did within the British colonies and the Americas. But yeah, that's just very different to the scale of the enslavement that we saw even just within the continent as well. So do you get a sort of a sense that in Zing,

or maybe even her father as well, they started to resist this and when that happened? Yes. Yeah, they were definitely resisting. And I think that's the wonder. thing and I love talking about her is because, like you said, people always think that a lot of kind of African nations were just kind of like, went and be like, okay, feel free, take out. Like, it wasn't that. There was, there was huge resistance. And actually, this whole elements around

kind of colonizing African nations started out way back when, you know, it was ongoing kind of like erosion of cultures. And it kept, you know, we're talking about the 1500s here. The Berlin Conference happened in 84, 85. That is such a massive, like, these countries are kind of really coming in and kept going and going at it. And you can imagine there comes a point where, where does it go from there? So it's definitely, yeah, for me, it's really important to just highlight that, that there was resistance right from the beginning.

Myself, Astrid and Cheney will be back after a short break. Airplanes, spacesuits, condoms, coffee, plastic surgery, warships over on the patented podcast by history hit, we bring you the fascinating stories of history's most impactful inventions and the people who claim these ideas as their own. We uncover exceptional stories behind everyday objects. We managed to put two men on the moon before we put wheels on suitcases. Unpack invention myths. So the prince's widow immediately becomes certain. Thomas Edison stole her husband's invention and her husband disappeared around the same time can only have been eliminated by Thomas Edison, who at the time is arguably the most famous person in the West.

And look backwards to understand technologies that are still in progress. You know, when people turn around to me and say, oh, why would you want to live forever? Life's rubbish. I just think that's a bit sad. I think it's a worthwhile thing to do. And the thing that really makes it worthwhile is the fact that you could make it go on forever. So subscribe to Patented from History Hit on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts to catch new episodes every Wednesday and Sunday.

amazing that it was this woman and I'm sure there were others as well. So tell me a little bit. So she, she bumps off her brother. The father's gone, her son has gone. It's all sounding a bit Game of Thronesy, isn't it? Which kind of royal history tends to be wherever you are. So she's in power and she's in power for like 30 years, isn't she? Yeah, so she comes to power and again, some accounts say that she either her brother died because it was under suspicious circumstances. So again, either, yeah. Some say. it could have been him actually, like, taking his life. Others say that it could have been in Zinger that actually poisoned him.

So I don't know. I mean, she killed a servant, so I wouldn't put it past her. Yeah. And I'm also saying, like, your brother killed your son. You're going to be looking for some sort of revenge. That's a score to settle, isn't it? Yes. They're not comfy family evenings around Thailand.

God Almighty. So what was she like as a ruler then? Because it is tough at the top. And you've got to have a certain set of. skills, I would be appalling at it because I'm too, I'm quite weak and we'll give a lot of ground to people because I'm a terrible people pleaser. I'd be an awful queen. What was she like as a queen? I was going to say, she was really involved in terms of, she wasn't one of those leaders. He was kind of like, right, giving you orders, going here, that sort of thing.

She was very much involved in those guerrilla wars and stuff like that. So I think that was very much her leadership style and sense that you get from her. Because also she got trained, so you're going to want to use it, you know? She's right there in the thick of the action. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. She was very shrewd, and she kind of knew the Europeans were sort of trying to come at her territory,

but she played them against each other. So the Portuguese were going on with the war, and then also forms an alliance with the Dutch to kind of, because the Dutch want what the Portuguese wants, so then she becomes friends with the Dutch to kind of team up with them and stop the Portuguese. She also uses her kingdom as a sanctuary for runaway, people who had been captured to be taken off to be enslaved.

So she creates a sanctuary for them. Oh my goodness. So, yeah, she kind of exploits different rivalries to get what she needs and what she wants, basically. Wow. And was she mad? Did she have a family? Did she have any other children apart from the sun that was bumped off, do we know? Not clear, actually, whether she had any, she went on to have more children.

Yeah. No, it's not clear. No. There isn't a record, but although you never know there's probably is something. If you dig and dig and dig. But yeah, as far as we know, there wasn't anything else. But she did live to quite an old age. So living at 82 back in those times is already in achievement.

82 in leading a battle. So what happened with the Dutch and the Portuguese in the end? Because I think as well what's kind of blowing my mind is, I don't understand politics today in the country that I live in. And this is a woman who, she's dealing with foreign powers that are invading, and she understands them well enough and can speak their language to kind of play them off against one another. What was the outcome of it in the end?

Like, did the Portuguese fuck off? And did she win? So she managed to, like, stave them off. But unfortunately, I think it's only really worked when she was alive. Yeah. So after her death, her kingdom, Metabba, went through a civil war. So then, unfortunately, this left them vulnerable to Portuguese expansion. But while she was there, it was, she was able to stave them off at least for 30 years.

Yeah. God, oh my, do you know if she was, this might be a difficult one, do you know if she was well liked? Was she like a popular ruler? Not with the Portuguese, obviously, but with her own people. I don't know. Generally compared to her brother, right? Yeah, definitely.

Yeah, she's protecting. And the way that she's recognised within Angolan history is that she's remembered as the mother of Angola, the fight of negotiators, protector of her people. So they recognize her now. and I'm sure that at the time the people would have also done the same just because of the legacy that she has and the fact that even within Angolan society the women are socially independent and are often represented in army, police force and the government. So yeah, she's regarded highly as a symbol. I think there is a statue there as well actually in Angola.

Yeah, there is, yeah, I think it was in 2002 that they unveiled a statue of her to celebrate the country's kind of 27th year of independence and stuff. So yeah, she's definitely highly regarded in the country. Wow. And what do you think is her legacy? I think it just kind of shows that she's breaking, breaking what society thinks that a medieval woman should be, particularly a black medieval woman, although we don't even, this is one of the first stories.

I've even heard of black medieval women, right? But it just kind of shows what, that she's kind of breaking those boundaries, breaking the mould and showing that actually there was a lot of, there was a lot of individualism, a lot of really interesting people living in the continent at the time and just doing really cool stuff. And in your research, have you found other warrior queens? Because when you kind of looking at it in sort of Western history, there were warrior queens, but they were very much anomalies, really, because women were kind of socialised to be a bit more docile and domesticated.

But in sort of countries like Angola was, you sort of, you said there that women were sort of more equal and had a more active role. Is that, so did you find this kind of across other areas of your research? I think there were like in different sorts of ways. So maybe not from like a queen perspective, but there were also women because obviously in some of these countries, they were patriarchal societies. But then you have things like in Egypt, Doria Shafiq did incredible things in that like there, you Kenya and Wangarramatai. So it was all, there's so many stories of these wonderful women who either kind of,

who broke the mold within the countries that they were in. And it's just kind of amplifying those voices and their stories. And as historians, how do you go about researching this? Because the documents that exist about Nzinga, are they kind of primary evidence? Are they people writing about her? Are they white people writing about her? Like, where does the story exist? Where can you find it?

Interestingly, there's a lot of books that are aimed at younger children written by Africans now around these type of characters within African history. Oh, that's amazing. Which is really good. something that I hadn't come across before when I was growing up, I had to come across these kind of stories. And then there are, you know, the papers as well that have been written about her,

the different, some people are passionate bloggers as well because it's quite a bit of a niche topic. Sometimes getting some stories, so for example, there was a story about a group of women collectively in Cote d'Ivoire, and they were marching, basically protesting against the colonial government and the way that they were treating people in the prisons. And that was within an area called Grand Basin.

And it was a real movement of these women that were protesting on the streets. And I had to use like Google Translate because it was all this French, it was like a French document. So the fact that they just don't, it's not really that accessible. You really have to like dig and use Google Translate and all this kind of stuff. And I think especially when it's a country that you're looking at where English wasn't kind of a primary language. So it tends to be a lot harder than to be able to dig deeper and kind of have a look. see what's there. I think one of the, well, there's lots that's interesting about her, but reading the accounts

of the Western people that were clearly very frightened of her. I think that's kind of testament to how scary she must have been to them. You know, I don't know if she had a Harim, but the fact that they kind of have to sort of say that she does and just how wild that is and that they make that point that, like, in her harrimm, all the men are dressed as women? And it's just kind of like, yeah, but were they? Or is that just that she sort of emasculates, makes them feel like that? Or is it that she defeated you and you want to make her sound like, wow, she was massive.

Exactly. So in your book that you're writing, it's a continent, which sounds absolutely fascinating. And you said right at the beginning is that you find sort of content and you tell stories from those places. Could you share your favourite stories from these continents? I know it's like asking you to pick a favorite child, isn't it? Ooh, there are just so many. I've really, hmm. One of the ones that we found quite interesting and Astrid might also chip in here as well is the Uganda chapter, where we really looked at, so the current dictator in Uganda, Missevani, it has really strict anti-LGBQ plus laws.

And he has deemed it as it's not Ugandan, it's not African, but actually, prior to colonisation, one of the kings was quite open in his and quite fluid within. his sexuality. So that was something that, yeah, we'd never... We'd never... Who was that? What was his name? He was called King, Mwanga II.

All right, so what do we know about Mawanga the Second then? Why do we think he's gay? Because that, obviously, that'll start an argument amongst historians where someone will go. Actually, I think they might just be friends. It's not friends. You don't do that to your friends. But what's the evidence that he was gay? So during his kind of reign, he had pages and pages were male.

And so there were different interpretations in terms of his relationship with them. So at the time, kind of Christianity was coming through and the pages started to, because he kind of presented himself as this kind of godlike figure. But then when religion came through into the country, they began to see kind of hearing about Jesus and the likes. And so they were like, no, that's our God. and within Christianity at the time of the things like homosexuality, you know, that is a sin. And so it was seen he then became very much jealous of that, that they would no longer want to be in a relationship with him, you know, sleep with him and all of that.

And so it's super interesting to see because actually that whole idea of same-sex relationships and that being a sin was brought in by Europeans bringing in the fake page. So it's interesting, but it's how it's interpreted today by different historians. really interesting because some are like during that time some of the the way in which we see kind of like gender today was very different back then it was very much very fluid in a sense and so there weren't these strict sort of like how people identify and so for me I just love that idea that you know we talk about kind of gender fluidity and that sort of thing today much more openly and stuff but actually that was going all the way way back when so Yeah, King Bang is the second story.

It's an interesting, but definitely a spicy one. Yeah, that was during the 1800s as well. So at the time, I guess it kind of puts you at odds with Victorian Britain, you know, and you can just see the difference. There was Europe, and it was sort of a lot of Britain, exporting their colonial views. And you do see this a lot, is they have to start telling people why what they're doing is wrong. And then there's a shift. And yeah, they did that all throughout Africa.

And then that's actually wrong. And then, oh, it's very depressed. love that there was a gay king. I think that that is, especially as you say it, against kind of backdrop of very anti-LGBTQ plus. So he's a legend. Maybe he killed his servants, I'm not sure, but still. He did, he did kill the. Oh, he did. He did. He did kill me. He killed when they no longer was to sleep with him. He did. Yeah. That's really bad. I just feel everything is so much more amplified in history. Everyone just seems to kill people. He is the king, I suppose. I mean, Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's his judgment, isn't it?

And what about you, Astrid? What's your favourite, one of your favourite stories? I'm torn between two, but it's a similar theme. So mine will be Western Sahara and the Chega Islands. So we always talk about, like, colonisation be over and, you know, African nations being free and stuff. But actually, there are still these territories within the continent that are still owned. So, for example, Britain still has an African question.

Holly, the Chega's Islands. And very few, honestly, this was... Which should be Mauritius. One of the most surprising things ever discovered, kind of during our research process, that these islands, it's gone all the way through to the courts and stuff, and Britain's like, no, we're not giving it back at all. And so you've got Chagosians fighting for decades. They've been fighting to regain ownership and go back to the Chagosyllis Islands.

but yeah it's kind of at this standstill even though everybody's aware that actually the way in which Britain because what happened was it was coming through kind of decolonisation was coming sweeping through the continent and Britain was told you know you got to give it back give it back but obviously special relationships with the US he wanted to build a military base there so Britain was like okay we won't give it back actually there are things that we need these islands for, literally came up with excuses after excuses, and it's literally just been that and the Chagotans have taken them to court,

and we're still, even to this day, it's still under Britain, I would just... It's really shocking, so it was part of Mauritius and then it was supposed to be handed over to Mauritius, according to the decolonisation process, but yeah, as Astrid said, the US wanted to build a military base, so Britain sold it to them

and expelled the people, shipped them off. To the Seychelles. And I mean, even though they went to the Seychelles, which sounds like a lovely destination, it was actually really horrible conditions. And that was like the late 60s, early 70s. Oh, God, that's really recent history, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah.

Oh, yeah, that's a shocking fact. That's a knowledge bomb right there. Yeah, obviously, yeah. Every time, because, you know, recently there's been some kind of movement around the news with the choice. But every time I just hear about that, I'm like, how in this day and age, when we talk about African nations being free,

you've got this community and these beautiful islands still owned by Britain. When it goes against the courts, it was taken to the courts and they were like, Britain, this was, it's an illegal occupation. It was described as an illegal occupation. So I'm always, what I'm like, okay, so are we, we justifying an illegal occupation?

occupation we're here. But to be honest, with the whole current situation with Rwanda, I'm literally, I feel like we have no. We don't care about legalities anymore. Clearly not. Clearly not. And we could really do with another Queen Nuzinger, either here or there, to go, fuck no. Oh, guys, you've been so amazing to talk to. If people want to find out more about you about the work that you're doing, where should they look to find you? So you can find us on our website. It's a continent.com. And Tini is amazing at doing the socials because I can never remember them.

Socials. Yeah, so we're on Instagram at It's the Continent pod and on Twitter at It's the Continent as well. Guys, you've been so much fun. Thank you so much for joining me today to tell me all about this amazing warrior woman and a gay king thrown in as well. Why not?

Thank you so much. Thanks, Gay. I hope that you enjoyed joining us. Thank you so much to Astrid and Cheney. Go and look them up. How amazing are they? If you like what you've heard, please don't forget to like, review and subscribe

wherever you get your podcasts. We've got so much exciting stuff coming up. And if you were feeling particularly generous and overwhelmed and inspired by what you've heard today, you can actually vote for Betwixt the Sheets the British Podcast Award, Listeners Choice Awards. You can vote for us.

If you Google Search British. podcast awards and then you can search for Betwixt the Sheets in the listener's choice and you can give us a vote and that would just be absolutely marvellous and wonderful and thank you so much. Join me again Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex, scandal and society, a podcast by History Hit.