Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Orgasms & Skincare According to a Medieval Nun

Episode Date: October 11, 2024

Hildegard of Bingen, the 12th century nun, was a certified genius and a true polymath.From her many side hustles to her skincare recommendations, she wrote about everything from what happens when the world ends to what the female orgasm feels like.Why would a celibate nun know about this? What did she have to say about swollen testicles? And why were her achievements so significant?Joining Kate today is the one and only Eleanor Janega, co-host of History Hit podcast Gone Medieval. You can also check out her website here: https://eleanorjanega.com/This episode was edited by Tom Delargy. The producer was Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Sign here for up to 50% for 3 months using code BETWIXTYou can take part in our listener survey here.Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? We'll sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles.

Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. How are you doing? Well, I'm fine. Thank you very much for checking in. But before we can go any further,

I have to tell you that this is an adult podcast, by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way covering a range of adult subjects and you should be an adult too. And now that you've had our little fair do's warning, you can't get upset and miserable if you happen to listen and something pique you off. Right, on with the show.

Not to make you feel too inadequate, but the focus of today's episode is a medieval polymath that puts pretty much every single one of us to shame. Hildegarde of Bingham was a genius, to put it mildly. If it wasn't cool enough to be a 12th century nun and an abbess and write books about health and saints' lives, she was also one of the first people that we know of to describe a woman orgasming. I mean, that should be enough, really, to understand. your place in the history book, shouldn't it?

But she also wrote phenomenal music. She had religious visions, which she recorded in a book. She advised popes and bishops and kings. I mean, come on, Hildegard, give the rest of us a chance. Did I mention that she was actually canonised as well? It's St. Hildegard, thank you very much. But why would a nun be writing about an orgasm in such detail? I mean, we have to find that one out, right?

Let's do it. What do you look for a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning it up and pushing the funny. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, I'm beautiful done. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Derry. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society.

With me, Kail Lister. As far as I'm concerned, being one of the first people to describe a woman orgasming should be enough to earn your place in history. But Hildegarde of Bingham, who hailed from 12th century Germany, did so much more than that. In fact, it wasn't even the most interesting thing about her. Her writings, poems, music and teachings have echoed through the ages. But she wasn't made a saint until 2012. So if you've been working on Sainthood and nothing's come to fruition just yet,

then you hang in there. It could be a couple of centuries in the making. But joining me today to explore this medieval legend's life is another legend of the medieval period and BFF of the show, Eleanor Jarniger. She's also co-host of our sister podcast, Gone Medieval. So make sure to check out our previous episodes together, including what was sex like in the medieval times and medieval chastity.

Now, without further ado, I think it's time we met Hildegard, don't you? Let's do it. Oh, and welcome back to Betwixt the Shades. It's only, Eleanor Jarniger. How are you doing? Well, I'm better whenever I hear your voice, Kate. I do love having you on this show. Girls chat.

Girls chat. And we are speaking about a hell of a girl today. I don't know if a lot of people will have heard of this person. Certainly, until I was researching sort of saucy medieval things a while ago, I hadn't heard of her. Hildegard of Bingham. Who the hell is she? The Sybil of the Rhine, girl.

Come on. I mean, what wasn't she? This is the thing. Because, like, my girl is the queen of the side hustle. She's a polymath. So, like, what didn't she do? Right. So she's a saint, obviously.

But she was an abbess of the Benedictine order, which is to say, abys are like the nuns that run the convent. Yeah, head nun. When you're head nun, right? She was a composer composed really cool music. She was a philosopher. She was a visionary, wrote all about her visions and the things that she saw. She was a medical writer and a medical practitioner.

In general, she was just a writer. And I don't know when this girl slept. No. I'm going to be so real with you. It works upon works upon works. It's really incredible what she was able to get up to. And, yeah, basically one of the most influential natural philosophers at the time. natural philosophy is kind of like the precursor to science.

So before there's an idea of science, if you want to talk about nature and the natural world and how you think that it works, then we call that natural philosophy. What year was she born? What time period were we talking about? It was in Germany, wasn't it? She's a German amazing person. Yes, she's a German amazing person. And she is smack dab in the middle of what we call the high medieval period.

So she was born sometime around 1098, and she lived until 1179. So a great innings, really fantastic one for her. So this is a very specific period of time as well, because this is one thing is starting to get really good in the medieval period. So we are starting to see the reemergence of big cities. Commerce is really coming along. And this is when the church is finally quite powerful again. I mean, actually, I say that the church is quite powerful.

Again, I mean, it's when they become quite powerful. You know, they spent the last several centuries being like, guys, we're a really big deal. Guys, I'm important. I'm the Pope. And everyone's like, yeah, sure, bro, right? Like, nobody cares. But then you get to the high medieval period. And the church as a really big legal apparatus is suddenly in play.

And you have all these different orders of monks and nuns who are incredibly important and powerful and making big pushes in fields like philosophy. And Hildegard is one of those people. So she's very much a woman of her time, like really reflecting these newfound interests in pushing forward intellectual work. Do we know much about her background? How old was she when she became a nun?

Was she having these religious visions before she was none? When did they start? Was it a happy childhood? So she is from a branch of the lower nobility. And that's not a surprise because to be a nun like, look, they're not taking poor girls down at the nunnery. You need to come from fancy origins. And when you become a nun, it's usually considered that your parents are going to give a quote unquote dowry for you because you're marrying Christ, right? And then basically what that does is it kind of pays for you before you're paying your own way.

Because when you become a nun, you are going to be working the whole time and there are ways of bringing money into your community as a result of that. We think she's maybe the youngest of 10, but, you know, she's at least the youngest of eight, which is, yeah, it's a lot. It's like a clown car up in there, but Hildegar's the last one. And according to her, she was basically having mystic visions from a tiny, tiny age. And this kind of never stopped for her. So she basically gets sent off to go become a religious person. that's not a surprise. When you've got this many kids and you're a member of the lower nobility, right, like by kid number 10 or kid number eight, either way, you're looking at it. They're like,

yeah, I think that we've made enough advantageous marriages at this point. Like number 10 is not going to be the one that does it for us, right? And she's kind of sickly, so she's not looking like that much of a prospect. So if she's saying, yeah, I'm thinking about becoming religious, you go, yeah, okay, that's brilliant, because everybody loves having a monk or a nun in the family, because it's kind of like automatic somebody is praying for your soul. And so they're like, okay, well, off you go. But what's really interesting is that she's not just sent specifically to a nunnery. She gets sent to live with a woman called Yeda.

And Yeda is really interesting because Yeda is not just a nun. Yeda is an anchores. And can you explain to our listener what an anchoress is? Yeah, this is some wild stuff. So it's a big fun thing to do, especially in the high and medieval period, very specifically for women. Like there's a couple of anchorites who are men. But what you do here is you have like a little room built on to the side of a church or in Yudas case, a monastery. And you basically get bricked into that room.

And then that's where you live. Huh. This was hot. This was like the thing to do at the time. at the time. Like people absolutely loved this and more specifically women loved this. The idea is that when they put you in, they do like a funeral mass for the dead and they're saying that like you're cutting your all ties from the world. And this allows you to do a bunch of holy stuff, right? Like you usually go vegan as a part of this. That's a big deal. You're going to just be kind of talking to people all day

about religious things and it gives you a lot of time to focus up on God. So it's likely, Hildegard is not like walled in with Yudah, especially because like our girl ends up traveling later. But it seems like there was another room just beyond Yudas where little girls would kind of like come and go and basically be schooled by her because she's seen as being particularly religious because she's come up with this really pious way of living her life. And so it's, this is like a big deal. These people are like superstars. Does she get like a little bed in there in this little room. She's got a little bed. I think Yida, sometimes she's traditionally shown as kind of having a little desk or something like that to write on. So she can write and she's got her own bed and is food

provided. Yeah, food is provided. So you have kind of like a little slot through which food is passed back and forth as is one's chamber pot, as is like things for bathing. So you just kind of like have a sponge bath and things like that. But the point is kind of the discomfort. But you don't have to leave this room or talk to anybody. Nope. This is an introverts dream. Mm-hmm. It's really incredible stuff and it's like, if you are a woman who's like, I'm done.

I am so done. Yeah. It's just like, I am out. No, thank you. Wall me up. No, not a bad reaction. No, I'm thinking to society as a whole. But she must have been speaking to some people because she's speaking to Hildegard.

Yeah, so we know that you know because she's like a quite famous. She's got a whole life of herself written at the time and she's a big draw. Like she's looking after a number of young girls. Hildegard is kind of the most famous, but basically there are a lot of other little girls who come and go and are being taught. And eventually, because Yud is so famous, this attracts an entire community of nuns. Wow. We kind of think that at first, Hildar Garde is kind of like her right hand woman. Like she's doing chores.

She's the one who's kind of like bringing things in and out. And we know that Yudda teaches Hildegard how to run. read and write. I've heard people say that they might have been hashtag more than friends. There's a rather a lot of that with Holygaard. Do you think so? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

There's rather a lot of when a nun moves to another one, her being like you've broken my heart, I can't believe this, you know, we got break up letters. All right, so she's learning from the lady in the wall. Mm-hmm. And is she having her own visions at this point? Oh yeah, she's

visioning out the whole time. Wow, okay. So what kind of ends up happening then is that Yudah sadly ends up dying in about 1136. Oh, yeah, it's very sad. And as a result of this, Hildegard basically gets elected as the new head of this community of nuns. And she does the traditional, no, stop, I wouldn't want to, but, you know. So then there's this really interesting legal struggle with a lot of dudes, right? So because this kind of community of nuns was sort of attached to a monastic community already, right, as I say. But it's gotten bigger and bigger and bigger.

And Hildegard is elected to be the new leader. And the abbot who is in charge of the community of monks, who is a guy called Kuno, says, okay, well, why don't you be prioress? Which seems fancier, but it would mean that she was actually underneath him. Sneaky. Sneaky. And Hildegard is like, hell no. And also, we don't want to live here anymore.

We want to go start our own nunnery out in the woods because we're super holy like that. Wow. And this is like a real common thing, especially at the time. They want to live in a more deprived state, which is conception of apostolic poverty and this way of kind of showing holiness by not having fancy things, essentially. And Kuno is like, no. That's a no for me, dog. because like you're a famous visionary woman and actually you attract a lot of visitors and money and I want you to stay here.

And so Hildegard is like, well, I am a very fancy and famous visionary. So what I'm going to do is I'm writing to the Archbishop of Mines. And the archbishop was like, yeah, hell yeah, go start a nunnery in the woods. That sounds sick. And Kuno is like, I'm still not letting you go. And then Hildegard has this amazing thing happen. She has a mysterious illness that makes. her paralyzed. Right. And she can't get out of her bed because God is so unhappy that she wasn't

able to start her own nunnery. Oh, would you look at that? Out in the woods. Yeah. And the abidants are like, this is nonsense, you know, like, I'm coming in here to God and you're going to get out of bed right now. And but he couldn't move her from the bed and he was like, oh, word, it is a miracle. Wouldn't it be great if you could do that today? If you could, like, if somebody tried to stop you doing anything, anything at all that you just, you just, you, you, Either what it's to do or didn't want to do you, and you just lay in bed and you went, oh no, God's paralyzed me. He must be so cross that I'm not doing the thing that I should be doing.

Do you know what? I'm going to give this a go. Give it a go. It's going to be brilliant. See how far you get with it. Mm-hmm. I'm going to use this for getting out of my taxes. I'm sure it'll work.

It's fine. But does it work for Hildegard? He does. Oh, no. She's smart. Look at that. 100% works. Eventually Kuno is like, damn, I guess this is real.

and she and 20 of her nuns just like walk off and they start this new community out in the woods in Lupitzburg. And this is really cool. And now what is very important at this time is that Hildegard also has this homie whose name is Volmar. And Volmar had taken a shine to Hildegard

where he'd kind of been coming in and out seeing Yuda before. And he was like, this chick is a real visionary. She's got the juice. and he starts kind of working as her secretary and writing down all about her visions, writing down all about her life, and basically acting as her hype man across Europe

and saying, we've got a real visionary on our hands, right? And so he goes along with the community when they set up at Loopwood's book. And he's like, yo, we got some holy ladies, right? This attracts so many people. People love Hildegard. They love her visions. They're reading all this stuff.

And suddenly she's got so many nuns that she's got two nunneries. Wow. And she's got another one then at Elbingen. And this is like wild stuff. Like a woman to be attracting this much attention is just absolutely incredible. And it's a real testament to both her force of will and also actually about the fact that Volmar is a really great hype man and certainly knows how to get the word out. Yeah, right? It shows us that we all need someone to be on our side, I think.

So, like, her visions, somebody wrote them all down. She had her visions. Then she said, someone write my visions down. Like, what visions are we talking about here? I'm trying to get a handle on it. Is this, it's very difficult, isn't it? Because obviously she's not here. But for your money on this one, what are we talking to?

Is this like a full-blown schizophrenic episode where she's actually delusional and hallucinating? are these dream visions? Is this really intense imagining? Like I could say that I had a vision that me and Tom Hardy got married because I was just, because I was like really imagining it, really how I could say that.

Like, what is this? What are these visions? To me, they seem like really intensely imaginative forms of academic thought. Okay. So she's a philosopher in a lot of ways. So she has visions about what the choirs of angels are doing. She has visions about what the universe looks like.

She has visions about the end of the world and what that's going to look like. She has visions that are essentially soundscapes. Kind of the way that we conceptualize geniuses now, you know, this idea that they can just kind of pluck things out of their brains. That seems to be what's happening for her. But because she's working in this really specific context and in a hyper-religious world, this is all focused specifically on that. And so she's able to articulate as a result of all of these visions, incredibly complex ideas and thoughts. And it's one of the things that's quite wonderful about reading her work is that she puts forth complex ideas, but in a way that you can really follow along with it.

I'll be back with Eleanor and Hildegard after this short break. And I'm just curious as to like, what is like a religious vision? Because like when my nephew is talking like absolutely mad crap, like I often sit down with them and just say, did this happen inside or outside of your head? It's a good way to just be like, what have you imagined this? I guess we'll never know. But whatever it was, it was important enough to be written down.

And people took this incredibly seriously. Yeah, I mean, one of the things that's kind of happening, for her is that she is, in a way, fleshing out already established ideals about what's going to happen in terms of the religious future. So a lot of this is kind of like vaguely apocalyptic because, you know, Christianity is a linear religion. There's a beginning, a middle, and an end. And so they are seeing themselves as right in the middle of all this. It's the Middle Ages, of course. And we're kind of like moving towards the end of the world. You know, do yourself a favor. or go read the book of revelation.

Wild stuff, right? And what she does is say, okay, I've kind of seen in my head what this is going to look like. So, you know, she has visions about like the Holy Mother Church being persecuted by Antichrist, for example. And everyone goes, oh, I've heard of that.

She has visions about what the structure of the universe is. She says that it's kind of in the shape of an egg. It kind of looks like a vulva. Oh. So if you've seen the cover of Janina Ramirez's very fun book, Femina, that's Hildegarde's vision of the universe. That does look like a pussy. That does. And when she's not having these religious visions and writing books about the saints and composing music, like, honestly, her CV is just a terrifying document.

Oh, my God, yeah, yeah. Like, I first encountered her, the first time I knew about her is when I learned that in her book, how do I pronounce this now? Basically means like causes and cures. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, cause that career. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She wrote about a woman orgasming.

She describes a woman orgasming. And that was like when I first read that in, it was like in someone else's history book. And it's one of those ones where you look at it and you go, that didn't happen. In fact, I think I messaged you. I messaged you to say, did this actually happen?

Yeah, it's the first ever written description of a female orgasm. And it's, so I've got it here because obviously I do. She says, when a woman is making love with a man, a sense of heat in her brain, which brings with it a sensual delight, communicates the taste of that delight during the act,

and summons forth the emission of the man's seed. And when the seed has fallen into its place, the vehement heat descending from her brain draws the seed to itself and holds it. And soon, women's sexual organs contract, and all the parts that are ready to open up during the time of menstruation now close in the same way as a strong man can hold something enclosed in his fist. It's not quite erratica, is it? This is a very medical description. Yes, quite so. But why do we

think that's an orgasm then? Make the case. Okay, so this is really all in line with ideas about orgasm at the time. So this is a part of what we call two seed theory. And, And the idea at the time is that the way that you get people is that, well, if men's semen is one of the genetic things, then women also have semen. And if semen as part of ejaculation for men happens often linked with orgasm, then it must be the same thing for women. So there is just like, you got two kinds of semen, right? And it is seen that semen descends from the brain in men. The idea is that it comes from the brain, it travels down the spine, and then it comes out of the penis. So when she says there's a sense of heat in the woman's brain, she's saying the same thing.

Yeah. So the kind of semen is coming up there. And the thing to keep hold of here is this idea of opening and closing. So the sexual organs contract and then close, which is rather a lot like how people who are assigned female at birth often experience kind of contractions during orgasm. It's that contraction that we focus on. So there's rather a lot of, you know, heteronormative stuff up the top where it's like,

you know, when you're having good old fashioned penis and vagina sex in order to conceive children, because that's what sex is. So you have to get all of that out of the way first in order to get to the, it's rather a lot like a hand opening and closing. Am I right?

Am I right? And I think that that is really understandable once you kind of focus on that bit. So, yeah, it's quite an interesting one because it's got these sort of inscrutable layers on top of it. But once you understand the context in which it's happening, it makes more sense. I hasten to point out right now that lest we go around saying that medieval people are weird for thinking that women have semen and that semen is made in the brain. Ancient people thought this too and everyone thinks this up until the modern period. So it's not weird, right?

I actually think, because I've been looking into this and researching this, all this two seed theory and women orgasming and women's seed. And I think I've come down on an opinion of what this woman's seed is for my money. I think that it is just being wet. Yeah, what the French call supreme, but we would call the natural lubrications produced by the vagina during arousal. Because we don't have a fucking word for it. We just say, I'm wet. We don't have a word for it. But I think that's what they mean when they say seed. A woman releases her seed. And I mean, it makes sense in context, doesn't it? Right? You know, where you're like, oh yeah, well, there's a fluid that men are producing. There's a fluid that women are producing. I know some historians don't think that and they disagree. They think that it could be some kind of invisible seed that we can't see that's happening internally. And I've heard some people say it might be menstrual blood. But having read through a lot of sources, Hildegard included, I think when they're talking about seed, it's like a fluid that's as they talk about it being released, I think that's what it is.

Yeah, and I think that it also makes sense here because I think the way Hildegard writes this, it's very observational. Which brings me to the next point, Eleanor. How the fuck did a nun know about this? She's not supposed to know about this. Well, here's the thing about monks and nuns is they really get up to things that they're not supposed to at time. So one of my colleagues, I forget whom at one point in time, I was, you know, having yet another conversation about members of the clergy having sex when they ought not. And she was like, well, we only think it's about 10% of them.

And I'm like, dude. Like, that's still quite a lot. Come on. And in particular, we think one way of reading Hildegard's life is that she at the very least has what we think is a fairly serious relationship with a woman named Ricardis. And Ricardus was Hildegard's secretary. So she was kind of like to Hildegard, what Hildegard had been to Yuda. And this is when she's in Dysbodenberg, right before she moves to Wuppertsburg. So she would have like kind of been there through all of these trials and tribulations.

And she's there when Skivius is first written, which is the first of Hildegard's big bestsellers, right? But then in 1151, Ricardis is elected to be. Abyss of the Basum Abbey, which means that she would be leaving. And Hildegard is so mad about this. She writes to Ricardus's mother. Oh. I know, right? Like just straight going to the mother-in-law.

And she's like, I believe that this is certainly not God's will, that this is happening. She's doing that again. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And like Hildegard goes and starts talking to like all the important people she knows. And let me tell you what. Hildegard knows everybody. She's right into the emperor.

She's right into the Pope. You wouldn't want to take her on, would you? Mm-mm. And like, regardless, Ricardus eventually gets moved. And then about a year after Ricardus is moved, she dies. Hildegard is notified by the local Count Count Hardwig

as a result of this. And she writes back and is talking about how she cherished Ricardis with divine love. So there's something going on here, right? Yes. So, like, in the first place, why is the count being like, girl, I've got some bad news for you?

Like, everybody knows what is going on. They must do, right? Even if that was a really good friend, like, you wouldn't necessarily feel the need to, like, break the news like that. And it's like all of this kind of, like, tantrums, and I can't believe that you're moving and why would you do this to me? Like, even if you are, like, besties, with someone, you would just kind of be stoked, even though you'll be sad that they're going,

because, you know, their career is progressing. Okay, okay. Yeah, so there's something's up. We got a lot of feelings. At the very least, you know, I would say that these are romantic feelings. And for me, that's enough. I think you're right. I'll be back with Eleanor and Hildegard after this short break.

Do you know, I've got a copy of causes and cures just in front of me because when I messaged you all those many months ago to go, who the fuck is this person and why are they talking about orgasm? Remember that? I ordered a copy, a translation of the book. And just to give people, it's not entirely orgasm-based. Unfortunately.

What she's covering in this book is everything from astrology and gardening through to health. And if I just like flick through it and if I just sort of say, stop, right? Okay, there's a book, okay, anger and sadness. If anyone is moved to anger or sadness, he should readily heat wine on the fire, mix it with moderately cold water, and drink it to suppress the vapor of melancholy, which has aroused the anger in him.

It's just full of stuff like that. Do you know what? She's so real for that. Like, are you mad drink wine about it? That was one of her better ones. There's some properly... Get pissed. There's some properly mad ones.

Oh, oh, swelling of the testicles. Hang on, here we go. All right, here we go. Great manly strength is in the testicles. Word. But sometimes from harmful humors, noxious sweat or overabundant delectation, a certain dampness in the testicles rises into an ulcer or swelling. The testicles are swollen and injured by these harmful ulcers.

And that's all she's got to say on that one. She's like, it sucks to be you, homie. I don't know what to say. Have you tried drinking wine about it. Why is she writing about testicle sweat? So specific. She's also a skincare girlie. Oh, is she?

Yeah, she's got all of these recipes for improving one's complexion. You know, barley water, that's like a big thing that she recommends, for example. Okay. Girl is got her hands in a lot of different pies. You name it, she's doing it. As bonkers as it sounds, and you can have a lot of fun with these works, like just scrolling through it and just finding her most insane curse for stuff. She wasn't just sitting there making this crap up because it's all based in Greek, medicine. So she must have been reading the Greek texts and translating them. So like,

she's incredibly well read. Oh, yeah. Like, I mean, all she does all day long is think about everything. Just think. Apparently. Yeah. And she's got a lot to say. And, you know, as well, for example, when she's saying, hey, you can use barley water on your skin if it's getting a little bit dry, that works. We still use kind of like barley and oatmeal extracts in skincare products today, and she recommends those things. So there's certain things as well that are just based on observation. And if you're angry and drink wine, that can help. I mean, in my case, it does. So what happens to Hildegar? It's just like, how can anyone fit this much into their lifetime? And you can still listen to her music, by the way. If you go on, if people listen to this,

She can go to YouTube, type in Hildegard de Bingen and listen to the music that she just casually composed as well. How does her story end? Well, she does all these incredible things. You know, she's written all these plays and all of these works. She's opened these two various monasteries. And, you know, she dies at age 81. Wow. Which is like a great innings.

And by this point in time, she's incredibly. famous. She becomes beatified very quickly. Like everyone considers to her to be quite sacred, but she doesn't actually gain sainthood until our own lifetimes, which is quite interesting. Some people were saying that she was definitely a saint for quite some time, but it took until 2012 for this to actually be ratified by the church. And it's a process that is called equivalent canonization, where they're like, well, everyone was basically saying that she was a saint, but all of the processes and procedures had not yet been established. She's also known as a doctor of the church. So, you know, people like Thomas Aquinas, like a big heavy hitters like that are alongside her in her works.

So she's got those healthcare tips and she lived a long and healthy life. She did. And how influential. I mean, I know she was famous because she was a visionary and a mystic and quite clearly a big deal. How influential was she? Fame and influence a slum. different things, aren't they? It's quite interesting because a lot of the time, it kind of depends person to person. So in the German lands, everyone is going, fuck yeah, yes. You know, the emperor is like, I love this and this is great. But she was also this interesting edge case where basically when people hear that there's a visionary,

when the church hears there's a visionary, they're like, I don't know about all of this because you never know exactly what a visionary is preaching. So she got checked out by the church. Like they sent people to just check in on her and be like, you're not doing heresy in here, are you? And they come back and they're like, no, this is completely above board. This is great. She's friends with all the archbishops. After that, she's friends with all the popes.

They write back and forth. She consults on various things. She's a big deal. She's a really, really big deal. And people really liked her. And that is how she kind of like enters into the record as a saint after her death. even though the whole thing didn't happen. Everybody just really liked her.

And so they were like, yeah, I don't know. I feel like she's a saint. And that's kind of how you end up pressuring the church in 2012. Which is like, this is a very traditional way of saints being made. It's just like it's too late that cats out of the bag. Everybody thinks she's a saint. So you got to do it. Before I let you go, do you want to hear another one of Hildegarde's hot takes?

Obviously. This one's on weak semen. Right. Which is obviously something that she would know. about, okay, here we go. If soon after conception, a woman permits another man access to her when that semen is still weak, often the sweat and heat of the second man joins a bit within this semen. Thence, it is as if polluted by a fetid wind, just as if someone were to add another liquid to coagulated milk,

whence it would become contaminated. Okay. So if you're sleeping around too much, then you're not going to get knocked up so good. Or you'll have some kind of like mutant baby made of weak semen. This sounds like the things that those weird men's right people are always saying online. It does, doesn't it? It's like when you read it, like in one way you're kind of like, you're like,

oh my God, she's writing about orgasms. And like, clearly she's writing within the tradition of women need to have orgasms in order to conceive. And you kind of hope that that would be like sex positive. and then you read a bit more and you're like, oh, okay. I mean, she is a 12th century German nun, but I don't think we can expect too much sexual liberation from her. Yeah, I think that you're bang on there, right? I think there's this desire on the parts of everybody

to look back in the past and see feminists. And you can see things that are definitely more positive for women. And indeed, you know, Hildegard is really interesting in that the way that she writes about women's sexuality is like shut up and stop calling women the devil. Yeah. Which is a really positive voice that we usually don't get to hear from the medieval period. But, you know, she also, it's not as though she thinks that men and women are equal.

She just says that they're both equally good in different ways, right? And we see this a lot of the time with, you know, the big important women in the medieval period. You can't just go around being like, oh, hell yeah, here's like my feminist girl boss. Like, that's not what this is. But what it is is a woman who is, you know, a certified genius doing really incredible things in a really hostile society. And that is very much worthy of mention, even if she's not doing it exactly like we would be doing today. Absolutely. Oh, Eleanor, you have been wonderful as always.

And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? You can find all of my nonsense compiled at mine own website, which is Ellen. noreanauga.com. And otherwise, you can come and check out my history hit podcast, God Medieval, where I am the host every Tuesday. Thank you so much. You are marvelous. You're marvelous. Thank you for listening and thanks to Eleanor for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like with you and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at betwixt at historyhit.com. Come in your way. We have a limited

series called Inside the Witch Trials, which will take you into the courtrooms of significant witch trials across three episodes to try and find out, well, what the hell was going on there? This podcast was edited by Tom Delagie and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The Senior Producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again betwixt the sheets, The History of Sex, Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.