Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Sex Lives of American Presidents [repeat]

Episode Date: July 3, 2026

With the Fourth of July and America's 250th around the corner we wanted to revisit an episode and take a look back at the presidents from the past what we know about their sex lives.Which president was well-endowed and supposedly presented it to staff in the Oval Office? Which president had an affair on his honeymoon? And which had an affair with his wife's secretary?And no, they're not all JFK.Joining Kate today to help us find out is Eleanor Herman, author of Sex with Presidents: The Ins and Outs of Love and Lust in the White House.This podcast was edited by Freddy Chick. The producer was Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Sign here for up to 50% for 3 months using code BETWIXTYou can take part in our listener survey here. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Oh, my lovely betwixters, it's me, Kate Lister. I am here, you are here, everybody's here, and also the lawyers are here, which is why I have to tell you. This is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about dulty things in an adulty way

covering a range of adults subjects, and you should be an adult too. And now you have to consider that your fair do's warning. You have been warned. We're going to get spicy. Okay, if you're still here, on with the show. Hello, betwixters. I've got my voice down because I'm currently hidden in the stationary cupboard in the White House. I only came in for a pen, honest.

Peeping in through the slaps of the door, I can make out, who is that? And would you look at that they appear to have some female company that is not their wife? How utterly, utterly shocking. Well, I won't give away which president I'm spying on, but let's just say it's the 1950s, and this guy is known for taking liberties. I'll leave you to make your own dupil on tundras about positions. of power, but seriously, what is it about political power and sexual infidelity? Are the two linked? And how? And although I really want to know the answers to those questions, I think we need to

get out of here as quickly as we can to find out. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal and society with me, Kate Lister. When they're not walking the corridors of power and making decisions that affect the lives of millions of people, American presidents have also been known just once in a while, just occasionally, ever so rarely, to have an extra marital affair or two or three or five or 50. As America will be celebrating 250 years since the signing of the Declaration of Independence, well done everybody, we wanted to dust off this episode about the sex lives of US presidents. It's just our way of paying respects to the big day. I was joined in this episode by Eleanor Herman, author of Sex with Presidents. And she helped me find out

more about the bedroom antics of the commanders in chief. Let's do this. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Eleanor Harmon. How are you doing? I am so delighted to be here again talking to you, Kate. I always have such a blast. I think this is our sixth conversation. You have written a book called Sex with Presidents, the Inns and Outer. of love and lust in the White House. What made you want to write this fascinating book, Eleanor? Well, my first book was Sex with Kings, and I looked at the sex lives of European royals. The second book was Sex with the Queen. My third book was pretty much Sex in the Vatican. And then I did a lot of other books. And then this came out in 2020, Sex with Presidents.

I figured I should turn my attention to U.S. history and really did a deep dive. I'm more expert on European history. And I was shocked to learn a lot about my own nation's history. Do you think it's kind of, it's a weird one, because most of us have sex. Most of us have sex. But there is something about power and sex that goes together. Do you think with all the research you've done around kings and queens and presidents, that something happens when you get given that much power when it comes to sex? Yes, it's true. There's actually a psychological disorder It was accepted as such by the psychiatric community in 2009 called hubris disorder. Wow.

Unlike most mental illnesses, which develop in early adulthood, this one is triggered by wielding power over a period of time. And when that individual loses power, the illness subsides. Oh, my God. And some of the characteristics of the disorder are recklessness, narcissism, believing that you're some kind of a Messiah, that God has appointed you and you can do nothing wrong, not listening to the very good advice of your cabinet, feeling that you're a kind of God, only you can save the nation. The interesting thing about it is it affects women as well as men. I mean, if you look at Maggie Thatcher in her last year or two, she was. She was whacking that handbag of hers on the cabinet table, threatening to fire everybody. It happened with Golda Maier. It happened with Indira Gandhi.

With men, however, the sexual recklessness comes into play. I haven't found in my research that any national female leader was, say, a JFK, for instance. Did that make sense to me? Because one of the questions I was going to ask you as we're going through this is why are they so sure? stupid when it comes to sex. I know we haven't like spoken about anyone in particular yet, but this will become a theme as we're going along. The recklessness of it and the entitlement of it and the fact that at any point, if this scandal got out, it could bring down a government. I've never understood why people risk that. They think that they can get away with anything.

Their minds are not working. There's no logic there. They think even if it gets out, it won't really matter. Everyone loves them. They're this messiah. figure, but they do risk everything. Their family, their legacy, their political career. It's really crazy. I was talking to my friend about this just the other day and she just looked to me and she said, Kate, there is nothing stupider on this planet than a horny man. And I thought maybe that's true. But I'm glad that it actually has a name. What was that hubris syndrome? So let's talk about one of the big American presidents. The first one actually, I think, Washington, George Washington.

What do I know about George Washington? He was tall and he had false teeth. That's what I know about him. And he actually did not cut down a cherry tree, or was it an apple tree? But anyway, this story about George Washington and his so-called love affair is really a nothing burger. There's really no there there. And I'm surprised that this is actually a thing.

The story is when he was a young man, late teens, early 20s, he was staying with his brother, Lawrence at Mount Vernon, and they would often visit their neighbors, which was George Fairfax, who was a fabulously wealthy British gentleman and his young and pretty wife, Sally. This couple would educate Washington on good manners and polite society, which I think indicates he must have been a bit of a hayseed. They would provide him with books to read. He developed quite a crush on the wife, Sally. And nothing happened. And when he was 25, he married Martha Custis and the two couples socialized till 1773 when the Fairfaxes returned to England. And he did write Sally a couple of letters saying that some of the happiest moments in his life had been

spent in her company. And that's it. Oh, okay. That doesn't sound too scandalous. So there might not be too many skeletons in George's closet there? I don't think there's a one really. I think he was probably very boring sexually. Okay, all right. So George, okay, let's move across to Thomas Jefferson. Hmm. Right.

So Thomas Jefferson, though he was a founding father of the United States and a brilliant man in several different respects, he was really not a decent human being in my view. I was shocked to discover that. But he had an enslaved woman named Sally Hemings. He had gotten her pregnant when she was 16. She ended up having seven children with him. And when he was president in the early, the first decade of the 1800s, his political opponents got a tabloid journalist to dig into this story.

I mean, many people knew about it. You know, they would see his son who looked just like him, a shade or too darker, waiting on the table and that kind of thing. And so these stories got out there. But Jefferson was such a successful president in many ways, and he doubled the size of the country by organizing the Louisiana purchase. And so in the next election, the voters just didn't really care that he had this relationship.

Was it scandalous at the time? I mean, I know that he was the president and his political enemies will have been on the hunt for anything that they could get their teeth into. But a slave owner having a family with an enslaved woman, how scandalous would that have been at the time? Well, I think it was quite common. Quite common indeed. I think the difference with Jefferson is that he was president,

and there were certainly people who disapproved, especially up in the non-slaveholding states in New England, for instance. They thought it was pretty disgusting. It's just awful. I think that I can't get my head around that. I mean, you just keep going and it just gets worse. and worse, but how could you enslave your own children? That blows my mind. I think he wanted them around him. He promised her. They were in France. He was the U.S. ambassador when she first

became pregnant at 16. She had gone there to bring his daughter over. And he told her, you know, she knew that if she stayed in France, she would be free because France did not recognize slavery. And he said, if you come back with me, I'll provide for you in the child and I'll free all the children when they're 21. Well, she ended up having seven kids, four of them survived infancy. And, you know, when they were 21, there was no freedom. Now, he did not put them in the fields or in the very arduous task. He taught them how to be carpenters so they had skills.

They could earn money. Some of them, you know, served in the house. But, you know, at a certain point, they all just left without his permission. They just left. Two of them could pass as white. and they changed their names and disappeared. Wow. And what happened to Sally?

What do we know about her, Sally Hemings? Was she ever freed? Did he ever free her? She was, there was a legal thing that they did where she was just sort of freed. And that's what happened to her. But, you know, he spent his last few years entertaining lavishly,

and he did not have the money. And he knew as he was getting older that when he died, hundreds of his enslaved people were going to be put on the auction block. and sold off and family split up. And that's exactly what happened to them. Instead of, you know, trying to free them,

which wasn't always easy at the time legally, he just figured out, you know, they'd be sold and then the money would go to his daughters, pay off his debts for entertaining. Just... And at the time, this seems like it was quite a scandal. It seems like it was quite an open secret. But it was one of those kind of, did they, didn't they?

What was really going on? Is it just a vicious room? for a long, long time, but they did actually prove this with DNA evidence, didn't they, that this is what happened? Yeah, when DNA first came out in the 90s, there were test done. You know, the thing about DNA is sometimes it just gives you a general idea of where the DNA came from. So people who did not want to believe our founding father had had all these children with his enslaved woman, said it could be his brother. You know, and according to the DNA, it It could have been the brother, except Thomas Jefferson kept a list every day of everything that went on in his household on his plantation who visited, how long they stayed.

His brother lived some distance away. And, you know, over a period of a couple decades, he visited a handful of times, not one of which would have been around the time frame when Sally Hemings got pregnant. So I think it's really safe to say that Thomas Jefferson was the father of her children. on a limb and say that. I think I would agree with you there. Eleanor. Right. So he, Thomas Jefferson is a jerk, and that would be putting it very, very mildly. Is he the worst one that you found in your research? Was he the worst one that just made you go, oh God, no, no.

Put it away. Keep it in your pants, you're horrible man. The worst one was JFK. God, we have spoken about JFK before. JFK was pathological with his promiscuity. And when he was running for president, his advanced team would go to a town where he would be visiting the next day and they'd pick six prostitutes,

the type, usually blonde, that JFK liked, and they'd have them lined up on the tarmac so that when the plane landed and the candidate got off, he would pick two or three of them, go to a hotel, then speak at various events looking very relaxed and refreshed. Oh, he was, and he didn't ever, ever stay faithful to his wife, Jackie, like not even a little bit, did he? Not even on the honeymoon, Kate. They were at a, they went to Mexico for their.

honeymoon and they were at a very lovely suiress at some wealthy person's house and he disappeared into a guest room with a blonde while Jackie's standing there feeling like a complete idiot. Like it's it is pathological like when because in the episode that you came on and we spoke specifically about JFK is that when you're laying it all out you I'm actually hearing it thinking these aren't the actions of a well man like this isn't normal.

behavior by any means. This is weird behavior. Well, you know, in the White House, just as in Buckingham Palace, the male leader and the spouse each had separate bedroom suite. So there's the president's side of the residents and then the first ladies. So when Jackie was away, which was frequently, she just needed to get away from him, JFK would bring women up. Do you think he took them to his own bed? Oh, no. Oh, I would hope that he did. He did not. He always took them to Jackie's bed where they would have sex on her bed. And then the staff, and this is the weirdest part which I don't get, they wouldn't change the sheets. I don't know if he didn't want them to or if he used so many pairs of

sheets every day with these women that they just didn't have enough of a supply. So the staff would have to pick hairs and bobby pins off of the sheets. And they would often complain why didn't he bed brunettes because then Jackie would just think, well, they're my hairs and my bobby pins, but he always seemed to take blondes. One night, Jackie found a pair of underpants under her pillow, and she fished it out and said to her husband, can you find the owner of these? These are not my size. Jesus, wow. So Jackie knew, I mean, how could she not know what he was up to? But she was, she kind of did that thing that a lot of women married to powerful men have done down the years and sort of made their peace, with the fact that, yeah, if he stands still long enough, he's going to have a go at it.

Yes. She became severely depressed. You know, she had been warned before the marriage by his friends who really liked her saying, you know, this is not a good idea. He's never going to be faithful to you. I mean, not on day one. And she saw it as a challenge and thought, you know, wealthy and powerful men may have an affair. I'll change him.

Yeah, she thought she would change him. Or maybe he'd have an affair now and then. I think she had no idea how sick his self. sexual behavior was. But, you know, she got depressed. And back in the 60s, doctors were just prescribing pills, uppers, downers, all kinds of pills. And so she got addicted to pills because of her depression. Why didn't the press get Kennedy on this? Because like any journal, they wouldn't have even need to research this very hard to have discovered, hang on, the president is running around America like a dog with two penises here. Like, why didn't that hit the press? Why, why wasn't

Isn't that a scandal? I'll tell you why. It's a very fascinating story. Ever since the advent of newspapers, pamphlets, broadsheets in the 1500s, the press had been very salacious, always seeking scandal because it sold them, right? Printers and publishers made a lot of money from these stories, whether it's witches in New England in the 1600s or the sex lives of kings throughout all of those centuries. And then about 1900 journalists decided that they were going to be, you know, more respectable. The National Press Club was founded about that time. And they came to a kind of agreement that they would not report on these scandalous stories,

that gentlemen reporters did not report on gentlemen politicians, love affairs. And so they just clamped up. They didn't report on Woodrow Wilson's. mistress around the time of the First World War, they didn't report on Warren Harding in the early 1920s. He was right there behind Kennedy, I would have to say, all of his women. Franklin Delano Roosevelt had several mistresses. Everyone knew. And then, of course, the worst was JFK. And reporters would come into a hotel suite, see some naked actress running around or lying on the bed and they were not allowed to report it. Now, what changed this was a few events. The Vietnam War

really shook journalism. And the reporters realized how they were being lied to. Teddy Kennedy goes careening off a bridge, swims to safety and leaves the young woman he was with to drown. That really shook a lot of journalists who knew for years he was just a drunken mess, you know, waiting to harm someone. and they had never reported it. And then the final nail in the coffin of this hands-off approach to president's sexual peccadillas was Watergate. And after that,

journalists felt that presidents were not to be protected and respected, but to be investigated. So suddenly, you know, all of these stories came out. This was only about a decade after the JFK scandals. And there's people who were witnesses to his misbeck behavior or were his mistresses suddenly gave press interviews, wrote books. So that's how come we know so much about JFK. Wow. Yeah, he's got to be up there, hasn't he, with like the most, I don't even know what the word is, because it's not the fact that he had a lot of sex. People can

have a lot of sex. It's just sexually, morally repugnant with what he was doing, cheating on his wife, taking advantage of people. Like, you laid it out in the last episode that you came on, like really not even being nice to these women that he's having an affair with, really. He's just using them like a conveyor belt. Right. And he did not seem to be capable of understanding how much he was harming his wife. One of his friends said, you know, you are really hurting Jackie. And Kennedy said, no, I'm not.

I give her everything she wants. There you go. Look at that. Look at that. So to get back at him, she would spend wildly. And at the last minute, as first lady, she would often refuse to go. to events where people were lining up looking forward to media because she knew it drove him crazy. Wow. And of course you've got issues of national security. If he's having at it with anything

with a pulse is, you know, sweet, what do they call him, honey trap spies? Well, there are two issues of that. One is there was a potential for spies. You know, back in World War II, he was having an affair with a Swedish woman who was thought to be a spy for Hitler. Brilliant. Well done. The Olympics. And she thought he was man with a very kind heart. She wrote Hitler was a man with a kind heart. Jesus Christ. And so the FBI bugged their sexual encounters. And so he was transferred to the Pacific. But even when he was president, 20 years later, he had an affair with a woman who was thought to be an East German spy. And another woman called Judith Campbell, known as the Mafia Mole, she was having, she was the mistress of the crime boss of Chicago, the fellow who had taken over from

Al Capone. So he was just setting himself up for blackmail, completely reckless. The other security issue is that these women would show up at the White House door and say, you know, the president invited me. And the Secret Service knew he was not going to wait happily for them to, you know, check these women out. I mean, there was no internet. There was, I mean, how were you even going to check these women out at the door? So they would let them up. And they were very worried. because even if they didn't have a weapon on them, after sex, Kennedy would, he'd have some cold dishes prepared

in the little kitchen up in the residence. And there were butcher knives up there. And the Secret Service was very much afraid. They'd find the president stabbed to death in the shower one day, and there was nothing they could do about it. There is nothing stupider on this planet than a horny man. That, and JFK just exemplify.

So here's an absolute dirtbag for all his politics and he was great and he was fabulous, but he was still sexually a dirtbag. Let's talk gay presidents. Has there ever been a gay president, Eleanor? Yes, there was one. It's not widely known. His name was James Buchanan, and he was the president before Abraham Lincoln. He's best known for just muddling politics so badly that he helped bring on the civil war soon after he left office.

He was the only U.S. president to remain elected. lifelong bachelor, but that didn't mean he led a celibate life. When he was a young man, he met William Rufus King, who was what we might call flamboyantly gay, and they developed a lifelong relationship and often lived together. King was a senator from Alabama. So over the course of their 23 years as a couple, they would often socialize in Washington, and they were known as Mr. and Mrs. Buchanan or Aunt Nancy and Miss Fancy. So those were terms usually used to denote gay men. And when King went to France to serve as U.S. ambassador in the 1840s, Eukannon wrote to a friend that he was very lonely and that he'd gone a wooing to several

gentlemen, but they had all turned him down. So William Rufus King became vice president and died in 1853. And then a few years later, Buchanan, became president. And when Buchanan died, his nieces and nephews went through his papers and his desk, and they were so horrified by whatever it was they found there that they lit a big bonfire in the backyard immediately. No. Yes. No. As a sex historian, how often do we read that, that a family found papers after they died and then was so horrified, they had to burn it, and we're always going, no! Right, right. And it happened with Warren Horace. Harding in the early 1920s.

When he died, his wife found, you know, these 50-page pornographic letters that he had written and women had written him. And she took, it took her several days. There was a big bonfire in the backyard of the White House. And she'd come in after 12 hours of burning these things with soot and ashes all over her face. 12 hours. Yeah, this went on for several days. And there were still so many more that she took all of these boxes of, you know,

Some of them were official White House documents to her friend's house across town, and they spent several more days burning them, which led Congress to pass the Official Records Act that you cannot steal or damage or destroy any official records because there's actually very few left from the Harding administration. She had burned them all just to make sure all the pornographic stuff was gone. So Buchanan for your money, to be honest, I think I'm going to agree with you. He was a gay man, and it seems at the time it was well known. Now, there have been rumours, just whispery, sneaky rumours about Abraham Lincoln.

Maybe he was a gay man. And what do you think of that? Well, let's just examine the story and how it came about. When he was a young lawyer in Springfield, Illinois, he needed a couple of rooms to rent, and he met a young man named Joshua Speed, and they became roommates. And they slept in a single bed, which was very customary for the time. People didn't have their own space the way we do now. If you were a young man, if you were a man traveling and booked a bed in an inn,

you might find two or three other people in the bed, complete strangers. Now, that didn't mean you were having a gay orgy. It just meant that's what the sleeping arrangements were for the time. Kings and Queens in Europe almost always had a member of the same sex, a lady in waiting, or a gentleman of the bedchamber sleeping with them. If only for warmth in the winter, it was usually so cold. So that's the story. They had a lifelong friendship.

And then in 1999, a gay activist and historian named Larry Kramer claimed that he, had dug up Speed's diary and all of these salacious letters about him and his sexual relationship with Lincoln. He never showed them. And he wrote a novel shortly afterward about this relationship. I think he was just doing this hoax to sell his novel. Now, if anyone found this material, that should be a nonfiction work, which would sell millions of copies. So I think that it's just a hoax. The evidence for Lincoln then seems to be that he had, historians always, people take the Mick out of us for going,

they were just close friends, but he did have a very close friendship with this guy. Yes, was it speed, and they shared a bed, and it wasn't just for a night, it was for quite a while that they were doing that. But that's sort of the extent of the evidence for that, isn't it? Yeah, they were roommates and good friends. I just, I don't see it as being a,

a gay relationship, especially, you know, and the rumors didn't really come out until this man said he found the diary that he never showed anybody so hard. So there were no rumors at the time. It wasn't like with Buchanan where it was Miss Nancy and Miss Fancy. Not at all. Nobody at the time, right, okay, okay. That's mildly disappointing. I was really hoping there that you would say, yeah, he was definitely a fabulous gay man. Oh, do you know the one that I was really upset about was FDR. I thought he did stay faithful to his wife. No, and you know, I don't blame him to tell you the true. I mean, that wasn't a situation like with Harding or with JFK where they were just, you know, sexually depraved. FDR, you know, he married, he was a wealthy socialite in New England and New York,

and he married Eleanor Roosevelt, who was a distant cousin of his, because, you know, she was just very intelligent and very serious and not like the flighty debutants. But soon after the wedding, they realized they were just very poorly suited to one another. He loved sex. She hated it. He liked feminine frilly women. With each year, she seemed to be getting a bit more, more masculine in her appearance and tastes. He had a great sense of humor. She had absolutely no sense of humor. And so over time, he fell in love with Eleanor's social secretary, Lucy Mercer, and they had an affair. And what happened was Eleanor found out, and said, I'm going to divorce you. And he was very happy to divorce Eleanor, despite all of the children they had by that time.

But his mother wanted him to become president and said, and she controlled the purse strings in the family. She said, you know, I'm never going to give you another dime. You're going to ruin your political career. So it was a political marriage from that point out. Eleanor never had sex with him again. And he soon started having an affair with his secretary, Missy Lehand. And then Lucy comes back into his life after he becomes president. She was actually with him the day he died in 1945.

And Eleanor was aware of it and had her own relationships. But it was a love to. Well, she had a gay affair with a woman. woman named Hick, who was a reporter for a few years. She just became too busy, I think, as First Lady to keep that going. And maybe she was afraid of scandal. But, you know, she supported Hick until her death. She got diabetes, Hick. She went blind. And Eleanor always took care of her and loved her. And then there were some rumors about some men, some dashing men, too. One of the ones I want to talk to you about is we're kind of drawing it to where we have going to

have to stop talking about people because they're still alive. But Lyndon B. Johnson. Lyndon B. Johnson, now one of the things I do know about, or at least I read it about him, apparently he had a huge penis and he called it Jumbo and liked to show it to people. Yes, when he got really mad at people when he was in the Senate or the White House, he would take it out and wave it at them. I think as a show... So weird.

Very weird. But he was very... He was a big tall man and a rugged text. He was crazy about his wife, Lady Bird, but he just couldn't help himself when it came to women. One day, Lady Bird, as First Lady, comes walking into the Oval Office, and he's there having sex with one of his secretaries on the sofa. And Lady Bird knew all about this and forgave him because she loved him and knew he couldn't help himself.

So she just said, excuse me, and walked out. And Johnson was livid and had a buzzer installed so that his staff, could ring it and let him know to pull his pants up by the time Lady Bird walked into the Oval office. So that pretty much settled that. Wow. That's, I mean, wow, okay, okay. Going forward for this, because I'm just thinking about powerful men, presidents and the sex that they have, do you think that they will learn their lessons from history, mentioning no names in particular, but there are current sex scandals around presidents or former presidents that could threaten to take down an organization. And I'm just wondering, now when we've got so much tabloid journalism and the internet and everything

is under scrutiny in a way, it's never been before, do you think it'll stop them? No, I don't. I think the hubris syndrome is too strong. It is a psychological disorder. It's like telling an addict, don't take that drug or an alcoholic, hey, don't take this drink right in front of you. I also think, despite the scandals that have erupted in the past, about a candidate's sexuality. Ultimately, I don't think we care. When I look at, say, the Thomas Jefferson election, you know, he'd had a relationship

and several children with his enslaved woman, but he doubled the size of the country and he was very popular. You know, the country was going very strong economically. They didn't care about his sex life. People vote for, in their own interests. Nowadays, we don't even really squeak and squawk as much as we did. I just don't think we care when you look at a certain,

public officials and all these scandals, people just don't care anymore. I do think it would be interesting. You know, when you look at female leaders around the world, I have never uncovered a sexual scandal with any of these women while in office or even before, as far as I can remember. I mean, Maggie Thatcher, Benazir Boutto, Golda Mier, Indira Gandhi, Teresa May. they don't have this history. I don't think that the overweening sexuality that comes with hubris, disorder and power attacks them in the same way that it does men. And they would never be elected in the same way.

Like if a woman ran for the prime minister in the UK and she had multiple ex-partners and ex-husbands and wasn't even sure how many children she'd actually had, there's no way she would get elected. There's just no way. Right, right, which is my last book off with her head, three thousand years of demonizing women in power. The standards are just completely different for men and women. And as a final question, in all the research that you've done about president's sex lives, not counting any who are living, was there any that were nice? Was there any that you looked into him

and you went, oh, he just really loved his partner and he just, yeah, and he was just happy to stay at home and there was no cheating? Was there anyone like that? Jimmy Carter, who this week is celebrating his 100th birthday. He married when he was what, 19 or 20. She was 18. Rosalind. She just died a year or two ago. They were together something like 80 years. That was probably the sweetest. The Reagan's two really adored each other. And the thing about these happily married presidential couples is that you don't really think about their marriages because they're not on the front pages of the of the newspapers. Eleanor, you have been wonderful to talk to.

Again, you always are. And if people want to know more about you and your research, where can they find you? I'm at eleanorherman.com. Look me up. I'd be happy to hear from you. And we will get you back on when your next book is published.

That sounds fascinating. Thank you so much. Thank you for coming on again. You are wonderful. Thank you for listening. Thank you so much to Eleanor for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like review

and follow along. whatever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject, or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at betwixtat history hit.com. We've got episodes on everything from the real Sylvia Plath to gladiators' sex lives all coming your way.

This podcast was edited by Tom Delaggy and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The Senior Producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again, Betwixt the Sheets, The History of Sex, Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.