Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Sex Lives of the Samurai

Episode Date: August 4, 2026

The samurai are some of the most mythologised people in history, so let's do some myth busting!Kate is joined by Joe Nickols, who co-curated the British Museum's samurai exhibition, to dive into the real lives of the samurai. How much fighting did they actually do? Could women be samurais? And what did they use for lube?Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards. Click to place your vote on the Spotify mobile app: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJaThis episode was edited by Hannah Feodorov. The producer was Sophie Gee. The senior producer was Freddy Chick.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards. Click to place your vote on the Spotify mobile app: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJa Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Fantastic news, betwixters. Thanks to your votes, we are through to the final 20 of the Listeners' Choice Awards at this year's British Podcast Awards. We still need your help, though. Of course we do. We've got to keep those votes rolling in. And if you voted before, apparently, you have to vote again. It wasn't my idea.

But this time, follow the link in the show notes to the British Podcast Awards, Spotify playlist on your mobile app, where you can cast up to three votes for betwixt the sheets. But only in the Spotify mobile app. I'm sorry, it is a bit. a pain, but your vote would mean the world to us. Thank you so much. Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. Welcome back once again to betwixt the sheets. The podcasts where we get down and dirty and frankly far too intimate with history for anyone's liking but our own. But we don't care. Long may we continue. But before we can go

any further together, I do have to tell you, this is an adult podcast. Pocomboid adults to other about stories, no longer, all the subjects, new, should be an adult too. Oh, do you feel safer? I feel safer. Right, let's do this together, and we will do it safely. The samurai, the Japanese warrior class. We think of armour, we think of swords, we think of bows and arrows,

we think of Keanu Reeves. Was it Tom Cruise, who was being a samurai? I can't remember, but it's definitely been a lot in Hollywood, haven't they, the samurai? What do they symbolise, righteousness, loyalty, honour, respect, honesty, courage, consistency, or is that just all a Hollywood fantasy? Hello and welcome back to Betwixtashch, the history of sex scandal and society with me, Kate Lister. There is an old saying that you can be a lover or a fighter, but if you were a samurai, you were expected to be both.

Not only were they highly trained martial artists, but they were excellent at administration. So you didn't expect that coming, did you? No, they were good at admin. They were also good at poetry, art, conversation. they were the whole package. And today I'm joined by Joe Nichols, the co-curator of the recent samurai exhibition at the British Museum. Joe is going to tell us all about the samurai, what and all.

Swords at the ready, everyone. Let's do this. Well, hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Joe Nichols. How are you doing? I'm so well. I'm loving this heat and I'm just thrilled to be here. Well, thank you so much for taking time away from the heat, in the heat, to talk to us.

You're here to talk to us about the history of samurai. But before we get to that, can I ask you what is your interest in this? Because you were also the co-curator for the British Museum's recent exhibit on Samurai. Yes, it was a huge honour to work with Dr. Rossina Buckland and Oleg Benesh on this project. And it's quite funny my interest in samurai. I do remember, and I've spoken to Racina about this, when I was a student studying at SOAS, fresh to university, I was very much like a contrarian.

And I was studying Japanese art history, and I was like, I'm never going to be interested in samurai. They're too obvious. It's what everybody comes here to study. But I've just learned that you can't escape your destiny. And so I ended up actually learning a lot about all of the parts about samurai that are true that people don't sort of want to talk about like about samurai women, how samurai are bureaucrats. You know, they're not always fighters, how they had to be artists. And there's all of this other sort of aspects to samurai that really intrigued me and sort of went against that popular perception.

And so when this opportunity came up to work with Racina on this project, I just really wanted to do it. So for people listening, and I'm not sure that anybody's out there who's never even heard of the samurai, but just in case, just in case there's one out there, who are the samurai? It's a great question. And it was really the starting point of the exhibition, because the word samurai is really this global world. and it's kind of a catch-all term. So this term samurai probably wasn't actually used by the group of people we refer to as samurai. Yeah, it's a term that is probably applied to them much, much later. Samurai comes from the verb Sabarau, which means to serve

and was likely ascribed actually to only lower-ranking warriors. They would have used terms like bushi, musha, mononofu, to describe this group of warrior people. So what we refer to as the samurai actually has this sort of a thousand years history where they are changing and evolving, responding to different cultures and influences. So they're not this sort of monolithic group. But what we refer to samurai are these.

sort of this warrior class that really gets established in the 1600s by the Shogun or the de facto ruler of that period of time called Tokugawa Iiyayasu. And before then, these warriors had existed. They sort of emerge at the beginning of the 11th century as mercenary warriors, and they were fighting on behalf of imperial courtiers. And so there's this period of time where they are fighting on the back. battlefield. And then there's a great victory for Tokyo Iyasu in 603 at the Battle of Seki Gajara, and he is then able to establish this new sort of structure of society where he consolidates

a class of warriors. And they really become bureaucrats. There's then about 250 years of unadulterated peace. And so there isn't any conflict or war. They are at the apex of society. They're the top of the food chain, so to speak. What do you mean that they're bureaucrats? Trying to put that together, a samurai and a bureaucrat, like trying to picture a samurai with a spreadsheet and like trying to organise, putting meetings in your diary. What do you mean that samurai is a bureaucrats?

But that's essentially what they are doing. They are government officials. They're sort of civil servants. They're making sure the country is running. Yeah. So Tokawa E.F, so he is the shogun, so he's at the top. And then Japan itself is then divided up into a number of different domains, which are then ruled by a lord or a dimeo. And then each of these domains has, it's kind of like a federalized state, its own laws and regulations.

And so under the daimyo, there's then a selection of. of samurai who are enacting all of these decrees. They're working as judges. They're part of the police. They're often doing surveys of land. They are doing kind of their mapping their domains. There are all of these different roles that they participate in that are very kind of bureaucratic. Joe, I have been grossly lied to by Hollywood. Well, yeah. I mean, it is so interesting. I mean, But you also haven't been lied to by Hollywood. There is this period of time where they are these warriors on the battlefield. It's incredibly brutal, very, very bloody.

But that all stops in the 1600s. And it doesn't return until the sort of tumultuous end of the Tokugawa period, when there are these rebellions against the Tokugawa rule. And it all changes once again. So for about 250 years, there is no, there is no fighting. Would a comparison, a bit of a clunky one may be, but would a comparison be like the knights in European history, they are this warrior class,

but ultimately they're sort of presiding over lands and people, and a lot of that is going to be, as you say, bureaucratic administration? Yeah, I mean, it's not a sort of kind of far-off analogy. I mean, particularly in the way that we romanticise the samurai. I think it's very similar to the way that the knights get romanticised. So there's this really interesting kind of relationship between, you know, the Victorian ideals of chivalry that become really popular at the end of the 19th century,

beginning the 20th century, and then how the samurai gets sort of recoded as this sort of valorous, honorable. Bloody Victorians again. Yeah. There's this global trend at the end of the 19th century of chivalry. and there are people who start to write about the samurai in this very kind of romanticised viewpoint. Yeah, including Nito Beinazo,

who is the one who writes the book Bushido, the soul of Japan, the soul of the samurai. And that's sort of really where it comes from this idea of sort of unwavering loyalty. Was that a 19th century text? Yeah, so it was first written in America in English, in 1899. And it was really a way for Nitobe to create this kind of comparison

between the samurai and the knights. And it was a way to kind of defer some kind of cultural colonialism of saying you don't really need to colonize us. You know, we have a similar thing, we have a similar ethos going, we're the same. And it wasn't really based on historical precedent. And when it was translated into Japanese in 1910, a lot of Japanese historians were like, what is this? Where is it coming from? This isn't like

That sounds like the Victorians. Just fuck it, we'll make it up. Yeah. And so it's really, it's this really interesting dialogue. And then that's actually been sort of what has kind of sustained our perception of this group of people as eternally loyal, unwaveringly brave people. And what's also really interesting, I think, about the samurai is a lot of the discourse of, uh, the surrounding that is based on writings that are done during this Tokugawa period, also known as the Edo period, where people are writing about the battlefield, but they're never actually fighting. They've never fought a battle. They're just romanticising their own deep history when there were these huge internal conflicts, these huge civil wars of the 1180s and then also

during the 14 and 1500s. There were these immense battles and people were able to prove their bravery. So was there a way of the samurai then? Or is this all a Victorian invention? It doesn't matter what period of history we get somebody on from here. The Victorians will have done a number on them

that they're desperately trying to undo. Whether you're Egyptologist, a classicist, someone who's into Rome, a medievalist, everyone's just like the bloody Victorian. did it again. But is there any truth in this way of the samurai thing? Or is that all a Victorian fantasy? Well, I mean, one of the things that we talked a lot about in the exhibition

and in the book that we have that accompanies the exhibition is this idea of where did it come from, this idea of the where the warrior. And it's not sustainable as a historical fact throughout history of the samurai. because Japan is so big and this group of people, the samurai, last for so long, they change all the time. And as I say, like, it's this federalized state. And so these warriors are actually, they do have their own codes, but they're more connected to, like, their interpretation of morality. And they're quite localized. So it really depends on where you come from as what values you're going to sustain, what and how you're going to act for your,

kind of colleagues, your sort of cohort of samurai, will really depend on where you're from and what time period you're from. So maybe there is a kind of way of the warrior, but it's not this kind of elongated, totalitarian vision. It might just be a moment. It might just be your group of people. So yes and no, I suppose, is my answer to that.

I'll be back with Joe after this short break. So how do you go about curating an exhibition on the samurai then? I mean, was most of the exhibition you're just going, nope, that's not true? Nope, that didn't happen either. How do you curate something from like that's that big a span of history covering that many areas? Because as you said, that's so diverse. How did you curate that? Well, it was a long, it was a really long process, but one I am so proud of and I have so many happy memories doing it.

I wish it was still on. There were so many aspects that we were trying to get across to people about a different perception of the samurai. So basically, we really wanted to confront a lot of the myths. It was sort of a myth-busting exhibition. Yeah. The exhibition was really split into three different sections. So the first section, we explored the samurai from their origin, as I say, emerging as these mercenaries at the beginning of the 1000s,

and then leading up to this moment of peace, so leading up to the beginning of the 1600s. So we kind of chronicle that period where they are fighting on the battlefield. But it's also really important to note how important culture was to them at that time. You know, they have this code which is called like Bun and Boo. And so Boo is this term which I don't know if anybody would have picked up

on one of the terms that I used to describe the summit, they were called Bushi. And it's the same boo. And it means kind of war, warrior. And so this culture of boo is about Warcraft. And Bun is about culture itself. It is the same bun as the word bunca, which actually means culture.

And so you have to master both. So you have this very cultured group of people and this very kind of ferocious group of people. And you have to be able to do both. I sort of described it when I gave tours of that, you know, like today we kind of think, if you're sporty, you can't be arty. But then you actually had to be both.

You had to do everything. And then the next part of the exhibition is about this time of peace, this great piece under the Tokugawa, which lasts from about 1603 to 1868. And then we have a small section on the transformation of society and leading up to the point where the samurai are abolished. And then the last section of the exhibition is really about their legacy, how that image of the samurai then gets proliferated as propaganda in the first half of the 20th century,

and then it turns into popular media in the second half. And we sort of land in the present day with video games, anime, fashion, manga, and how it's this, it's this sort of malleable image that's still alive. I mean, our closing kind of message of the exhibition is trying to encourage people to play with the image, create a new perception of the samurai trope moving forward. Maybe it's not about a man in armor wielding a sword, which is really what the exhibition was sort of, going against. Maybe instead it's about a samurai woman. Maybe it's about a samurai poet. Maybe it's about

a low-ranking samurai, not just the elite. Could women be the samurai then? Yes, yes. So during this time of peace where the samurai had consolidated into a class, and this is during the Tokugawa period from 1603, if you are born into that class of the samurai, you are a samurai. So there are these samurai women and they play very important roles. You know, they are very important people within samurai households. I did not know that. So it's like it's a class that you're born into. Can you inherit it? So if you're a samurai and if you have children, your children are samurai as well? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's how it's passed on. And so one of the most important functions of a samurai household is to sustain itself both economically and in terms of longevity. And so

there's a lot of anxiety about having children and ensuring that this household can last. I didn't know that. I thought that a samurai was, was, like it was like being a knight that you train for it and then you become a samurai. I had no idea that you could be born into it and pass on your samurai-ness. That's fascinating. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's how it was for about 250 years. Were they famous samurai then?

Do we know some of the names that survive? Oh, yeah. I mean, in terms of famous samurai, obviously during this Tokhauer period, we have lots and lots of names. Because if you were the head of a clan, like a daimyo, if you're the head of a domain, we know your name and your family history is very well charted. You really, to be an important samurai, you had to have this family lineage. And you would often have to prove that you were a samurai. And so people would make family scrolls about who you were related to stretching back hundreds of years to really justify your place in

society. So we have all of these genealogical hand scrolls as well that have been passed down to us. Of course, yeah. And then there are famous warriors from further back who do these brave and noble deeds. And they become kind of the Marvel superheroes of their day. So there's the Civil Wars of the 1180s called the Genpei Wars. And they become. this kind of fertile ground for stories and prints. And so, for example, there's a very famous warrior called Minamoto No Yoshitsune. And he's probably the most famous warrior of all time. And he becomes this icon of like the kabuki stage of many Japanese prints and stories and books.

And yeah, there's this. And he features even on like, accessories. Wow. And famous exploits of him. In the exhibition, we actually had a Sugoroku, which is a board game, where you could play the life of Minamoto Noyoshitsunei. And so it was a bit like snakes and ladders. So you roll dice and you move through the famous exploits of this warrior. And you kind of imagine yourself as these people. Oh, they really are like the celebrities of their day. Oh yeah, very much so. Okay. So you mentioned there that Samarais were expected to get married and to produce lineage. So let's talk a little bit about what a samurai wedding would look like. I mean, presumably then, these aren't necessarily arrangements of love and romance. They are unions of title and property and name.

Absolutely. And that was a really important part for a samurai woman was to be able to make a good match. You wanted to be able to have prestige through your relationships. And it was very, very important. I mean, this was really a lot of the focus of samurai parents was to negotiate these relationships. And there are examples actually of, young women sort of trialing these relationships out. Like sometimes young women would come and live in the family of their prospective groom to see if it would actually work. No. And quite often it didn't. And so they just went back. And nobody really kind of minded about that.

But that's not the case for all of them. I mean, there are some very, very, very high profile matches that happened that they would never be undone. So for example, the second shogun, Toko Hiditada, his sister was actually married to the emperor, Gormizunul. And so that match, which was sort of coordinated by the first shogun, Iiyasu, that was a very significant relationship. And so you have these high stakes political marriages, and then you have these other ones on a slightly lower scale. I mean, the samurai are 5 to 10% of the population,

and within that, there are all of these ranks of samurai, and your rank of samurai is also dependent on your parents. So it's very hard to move up and down, even within the class system. And so these marriages become very, very important points of how you can sort of slightly augment your status within the class. It is really complicated. So what I'm hearing is that it's very complicated, but there's also, there's a lot of order here.

There are a lot of rules, a lot of social etiquette. Honour is very, very important to these people. And from what you're saying, marriage and producing children is very important. I'm wondering, what do we know about just the sexual behaviour of people that were samurai? Were they allowed to have things like extramarital affairs, pre-marital sex? Were they allowed to go to the brothels and misbehave? or was that just, was that far beneath them and they would never do such a thing? Well, if you're a man, you have more leeway than a woman.

I know. Of course. But women do get up to stuff. So it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not the end for a woman. But, yeah, because of Confucianism, which is the structure of society at the time, men have more freedom to pursue extramarital affairs than women. So Confucianism is all about obligation and sustaining these kind of social obligations. And so for a woman to have an extramarital affair, that is kind of seen as the man being unable to sustain his household in the right way.

And so that becomes a big problem. So it's really about trying to sustain this Confucianist ideal household, which it's very interesting. Like Confuciism is all about mapping from large-scale relationships. So like the relationship between the ruler and the people all the way down to sort of the micro-view of the family. So you're basically trying to kind of, if you're the man, you're sort of meant to be in charge. and if you are doing your role correctly, every sort of part of your world will reflect these Confucianist ideals.

However, if you're a man, you can go off and have your extramarital affairs. Though the samurai are at the apex of society and they are meant to sustain these moral virtues and lead by example. And so there are various decrees that the shogunate put out there. to sort of minimize the lewd behavior of the samurai.

From what I know about Japanese history and sex work is they had a system of basically state sanctioned, state-run sex work, where they have the pleasure quarters known as the floating worlds, I think that they were called. Were samurai permitted to go to these pleasure quarters? Or would they have more of a system? Did they have concubines, for example? Or was it just everyone's going to behave themselves? and we're going to set a very moral example for everybody else. No, so it's a complicated question because it really depends on who you are within that samurai world.

So samurai did go to the brothels, the brothel quarter. So for example, let's take Edo, which is modern-day Tokyo, and that used to be where the Shogun had his castle, his center of government was Edo. and he created a system of alternate attendance. So if you were a lord of a domain, every other year you had to go to Edo to see the Shogun, have an audience with him. It was a way for the Shogun to keep an eye on everybody,

make sure no one's getting up to any revolutionary mischief. And it was also a way to make sure that each lord had to spend money. So they had to fund all of their retinue of Samurai. to come to Edo. And so this meant that Edo was filled with samurai and men. It was actually known as the city of bachelors. And so a lot of these samurai would go to the brothel quarter. But what's interesting is before you enter into it,

you have to take off your swords, which are the symbol of your status as samurai. And so when you go into the brothel quarter, you kind of become this kind of liminal person. Everybody's sort of treated the same. You lose your sort of signifiers, which I do think is quite interesting. It's this other world, as you say, this floating world where everything kind of is a melange of pleasure. You're not really within time and space.

You're outside of the sort of normal rules of society. What about same-sex relationships? There are a lot of same-sex relationships. It's really interesting. In this time in Japan, there's really no kind of transphobia or homophobia at all. And sex is very available. It's very kind of open. And yeah, there are these two ways.

So we've talked about the way of the warrior. There's also the way of youths, which is like, like nanshoku. And then there's the way of women. And what's interesting about the way of women is it's not about how to conduct yourself for marriage or for your wife or to get pregnant or things like that. That's sort of seen as a very kind of like perfunctory relationship. You know, it serves its purpose to sustain your family.

This way of the women is really about your conduct with sex workers and, you know, as you say, there's this whole world in the brothel district and you have to purport yourself in a particular manner. It's not just I will pay money and I will be able to acquire the services of these sex workers. I have to actually show that I am somewhat cultured. And there are actually different ranks of sex workers. And the same can be said for the way of youths or the way of male-to-male relationships. There's very little writing on female to female relationships.

It's really male to male. And there are these books where they talk about debates around which way is better, the way of youths, i.e. male to male relationships or the way of women, male to female relationships. And a lot of these debates kind of go without an answer. And really, everybody is partaking in all of these all the time. Like, there wouldn't have been a man historically in this time who would not have had a relationship with another man. I'll be back with Joe after this short break.

You said there that it's called the way of youths. Does that suggest that what we're looking at here is sort of like we had in the Greek world and the Roman world, a sort of system of almost like institutionalised pederasty, where it's an older man with a pre-adolescent boy. What exactly is going on here? It's very, very complicated. So most, well, all men would go through a period of time where they were sort of another gender.

They're called Wachashu. And they have a different hairstyle. They have different clothing. They have a very socialised role. And this is really well. where you kind of, and when you go through this at the end, you then become a man. And that's shown by having your hairstyle changed again. So the hairstyle that a whack a shoe would sport, you'd have these four locks on your head

and a little bald pate in the middle. And when you're a man, these four locks are removed and then you just have this bald paint on the top of your head. And these four locks are really, really desirable. And actually one of the ways to sort of discourage people's obsession with attractive youths, particularly young actors or particularly as well, these kind of very attractive men that were used to actually sell things like incense. They became really desirable people and they were causing a frenzy. And so we can see in various edicts, they demand that these people cut off their forelock. So that's a way to kind of police people's obsession with sex.

But there are never any edicts that are discriminating kind of specific sexual acts. And I think that's a big difference between Europe and Japan. I mean, what's interesting about what you say about this idea of pederasty. these youths are often going beyond sort of being just teenagers. There are some examples actually of lords banning certain individuals or certain groups at certain times from shaving off their forelocks early. And so there are various examples of these Wackashu living up to ages of 25, 30 before becoming adults. And then also we have examples of like young love, like tea.

teenagers participating in this. So, you know, there are sometimes there are like other 16 year olds to 16 year olds expressing their, their unwavering love to each other. And it was a very kind of like public relationship as well. Like parents would be asked if, you know, this samurai boy could go out with their samurai son. You know, there were these sort of really interesting relationships. Oh, wow. That's very open, isn't it? That's very very. very just woven into the warp and weft of society. Yeah. But then there are some samurai parents

and there are some examples of parents recognizing that actually having this like desirable wakashu might bring in sort of unnecessary, unwanted attention. And so they rush their child through to become an adult very early. So you might have, you know, an adult-looking man who is like 15, 60. because they don't want any kind of like,

lecherous, older samurai going after their child. They want to get this child into marriage, into the next stage of their world. There is, there are, I can't deny that. There are some kind of pederastic elements to, of this older figure should educate this younger person. I mean, it goes in many different ways. That was integral to samurai culture, was it then?

There would be an older man who would, like what, like apprentice a young man? Is he training him to be a samurai, and that sex would have been a part of that exchange? I think it's more about kind of cultivation. It's about this kind of conduct. They would go and be trained in kind of martial pursuits, kind of like a school. So that would be outside of this kind of relationship.

This is more about how to be elegant. And actually it's really interesting. The relationship between the younger person's conduct, the Wackashue's conduct would also reflect on this older lover who was called a nenger. And so it was really important for the nanger's reputation to be able to have an elegant match. And actually there are often,

there are examples in records of two older people fighting over these young youths. And some even murder their love rivals. You know, it becomes, it's a very sort of important and sort of emotional aspect of samurai society. But what is really interesting as well is that there's a real kind of manliness associated with it.

So there's a kind of a virility associated with these male-to-male relationships. You know, that are kind of out in public and people know about them, whereas you wouldn't speak openly, publicly, candidly, about male-to-female relationships. That might make you look a bit feminine. Wow. Is that where we get the word ninja from? Is that what a ninja is?

a ninja is the older partner in a same-sex relationship in Japan? No, ninja and nenga are slightly different. Too good to be true, I thought that one. And there's a lot of really interesting discourse about ninja at the moment. If you're, if you're interested in that, then, you know, some people really are questioning whether ninja ever even existed and whether it's just kind of a legendary attribute for a different, for a specific moment in time. There's a lot to unpack here. Wow. So do we have examples then of older men in relationships with one another? Or was it always an older man and a younger man, this kind of dominant and submissive dynamic? Was there examples of two older men being in love with one another? I mean, a lot of these relationships that are established are kind of meant to sustain themselves into adulthood. I mean, there might not be a sexual component with them later, but there's this alleged dynamic that kind of continues afterwards. And what is interesting is, is people have found images of two adult men in flagrante together.

So the making and production of sexual images is prolific. We have so many pictures of historic Japanese sex and erotica. It was a huge part of the publishing industry. And so they are clearly very rare examples. And so Timon Screech and Enoch, Ellis Tinios have worked together on a project and they've found definitely in 2004, I think, when they published this research, they had discovered some. And so there may be more now. And I've spoken to other academics within the field who have this feeling that these relationships

as adults did carry on. And actually, there's a really, really brilliant book called Cartographies of Desire, Male to Mail. relationships, I think it's called, and by Gregory Fugfelder. And in it, he describes not necessarily samurai relationships, but longer term relationships between townspeople that are same sex, that kind of carry on, and a lot to do with like transgender relationships as well. I mean, there's some really, in it, there's some really fascinating descriptions of the penal code that very much changes after the Tokugawa period ends. So in the late 1800s, when it's far more kind of based on like a sort of Anglo-American

Code of Conduct, the sort of Christian morality. And, you know, there are records of police finding transgender women in long-term, sort of married relationships with men. And he writes about how some, because it was very expensive as well to have certain, gendered children that sometimes if you had a girl or that you might raise that girl as a boy because then you wouldn't have to pay a dowry. And also vice versa. There are also instances of boys being raised as girls as well. So yeah, it was a very kind of different perception of gender but that's really kind of outside of the samurai. That's much more about townspeople, farmer,

conduct. That's fascinating. That really is. So as a final question then, although I could talk to you about this for just for forever, what happened to the samurai? Do we still have samurai? No, so at the end of the Tokugawa period, this 1868 date, the shogun actually sort of resigns, resigns power, and then there's a big shift in society. And that's really the beginning of the end for the samurai, like the social structures of society completely change. The society gets rewritten. And by 1876, all of the privileges that the samurai had that were social were taken away. So like the permission to carry two swords, which was the prerogative of the samurai, is completely removed. And that's sort of really seen as the final end of the samurai.

But they live on in images, in the power of their legs. legacy, you know, as we started on this call, you know, the word samurai is totally global. Everybody's heard of it. Everybody's probably seen a samurai film or a sword or knows something about them. And so they do still exist, but very much within us. Joe, you have been wonderful to talk to. Thank you so much. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?

They can find me on Instagram at Joe Nichols, J-O-E-N-I-C-O-L-S, and then also at joe-N-N-I-C-N-I-C-O-L-S. Again, Nichols is spelled slightly differently, N-I-C-O-L-S. But this has been amazing to talk you about. I mean, there is so much in the history of Japanese sex, and it's really a burgeoning field. As I say, like the sexual imagery, which is known as Shunga or Springer, or bring pictures. During most of the 20th century, up until the 90s, even in Japan, it was seen as inappropriate to sort of look upon these works. So it's only really since the 90s that people have really been able to sort of openly talk about these kinds of topics. And I'd also

really recommend, if you're interested, to look at the British Museum. We've just had Samurai and we had a section on Samurai sex. And so in the Samurai book, there's a section on that. But Also, we had an exhibition in 2013 called Shunga, and that's all about this sexual imagery. And it's so interesting. So I'd really recommend, if you're interested, by either one of those books. And these kind of sexual imagery, they were collected by samurai. So even if, I mean, one of the other really interesting things, just to talk, go very briefly back to, you know, were the samurai allowed to go to these kind of brothel quarters? and, you know, if you were high ranking, if you were adymia,

you wouldn't really be allowed to go there. You had to purport yourself in this sort of very erudite manner, but you might collect sexual imagery. And so that would be how you would sort of vicariously go into these spaces and have, yeah, we know of many daimyo who were sponsors of painters who would do that. And actually, I was reading recently, again, is Timon Screech's work, who describes a Shogun building a tea house, which is where you would go and meet a sex worker in the Shogunal Palace Gardens. And he had this vicarious visit. And it really

caused a bit of a stir. People were like, you shouldn't really be doing this. So there's this really interesting relationship between status, sex, rank, and how you sort of navigate these obligations. So it's a fascinating world. That is fascinating. Well, you come back again and talk to us about this because it's just, it's endlessly interesting this. Yeah, and I haven't even told you what they used for Loub. So, you know, there's so much to talk about.

No, you haven't. No, you've got to tell us that before you go. What did they use for Loub? Well, in one of the earliest images, as I say, there are these like depictions of sex that stretches back way before the Tocagawa period. There's this 14th century scroll of a priest penetrating a young acolyte,

and he uses clove oil, but we actually know from during the Tokugawa period. What's a bit burny? Well, they would apparently, even after sex, they would then warm their bottoms on a brazier as well to help all the after effects. But in the Tokugawa period, they actually used this really interesting mixture,

of hibiscus root, seaweed and egg white. And this could actually be made into, it could be dried into a powder, and then it would be reactivated by your sliver. So they have all of these really interesting. I know, I know, I know, I know, shocking. That's incredible. Joe, I think we've got, you can't do any better than that.

We're going to have to leave it on that note. I know, I'm amazing. Thank you so much for coming by. And I've no doubt we will see you again soon. I would love that. This has been so fun. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Joe for joining us. And if you liked what you heard, don't forget to like review and follow along wherever it is you get your podcasts. And if you'd like us to explore a subject, if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at betwixt at history at history hit.com. This podcast was edited by Hannah Fyodorov and produced by Sophie G. The Senior Producer was Freddie Chick. Join me again, Betwixt Ashid's The Tree of Sex, Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.