Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Sexual Violence

Episode Date: August 26, 2022

Definitions of what can and cannot be described as sexual violence vary widely across time and place. In 48 countries around the world today, for example, men cannot be prosecuted for sexually assaulting their wives.So what can a global history, comparing the differing interpretations of victims, survivors and perpetrators from different societies, tell us about sexual violence? And how might it help us to move forward towards a violence free world?In this episode, Kate is joined by Joanna Bourke, author of ‘Disgrace: Global Reflections on Sexual Violence’ and professor at Birkbeck University to answer these questions.*WARNING this episode contains discussions of sexual violence*Produced by Charlotte Long and Sophie Gee. Mixed by Thomas Ntinas.Betwixt the Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society. A podcast by History Hit.For more History Hit content, subscribe to our newsletters here.If you'd like to learn even more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad-free podcasts, and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today!You've been listening to a History Hit podcast. Please take a couple of minutes to fill out this survey with your feedback, we'd really appreciate it. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, lovely betwixters. This is Kate Lister. I am actually giving you quite a serious content warning for this particular episode because today we're talking about the history of sexual violence. This is an important subject, but it's a difficult one. And for obvious reasons, this just may not be something that you want to listen to today. So please just give this one a skip. No problem at all. I'll catch you on the next one. In the Western world, one in five women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime.

And one in eight men. And it's worth noting that these estimates are very conservative. Sexual violence is everywhere. It's in a multitude of contexts and situations. But for each person who's attacked, their insight, their understanding, their experience of what happened to them will be very different.

But for each person who is attacked, their insight and understanding of the event will be different. So what can we gain from a global, study of sexual violence. And can we bring all these experiences together? Today, Betwixt the Sheets, I'm joined by Joanna Burke to try and find out. So, hello and welcome today to Professor Joanna Burke. Thank you so much for joining me Betwixt the Sheets. I'm really, really happy to join you. I'm a great fan of Betwixt the Sheets. Are you? Oh, that's so lovely. Thank you so much. It's a real pleasure to have you here today. Your work is just, it's in

Incredible. And the subject that we're talking about today, the global history of sexual violence, that it's a heavy subject. It's an important subject. It's one that we need to talk about. But as a place to start, what made you want to write this book? Well, I mean, basically, I'm a historian of violence and all my books have been based on some aspects of human inhumanity to other humans. And sexual violence just kept coming up all the time. When I was working on warfare, There was so much sexual violence and warfare. I wrote a book on what it means to be human. So much of that is about how people treat each other so badly and how they distinguish between the fully human and the lesser human. In other words, the person who can be violated. But also, you know, I just started talking to my friends about sexual violence.

And one in every five people I know has been sexually assaulted. One of every five people, all the listeners, Women, sorry, I should say. One in every five of our friends will have been sexually attacked. You know, one and every 12 boys and men are also sexually attacked. So it's such a big topic in our history and what it means to live in this world. So I became really interested. But actually, I have to admit to you, Kate, the book was also driven by sheer rage.

Wow. I was going to ask you, how do you emotionally write a book like that? but it was rage that was pushing you. It was rage that was pushing me. Look, I'm an historian. So I like looking back in history. I like seeing how people in the past have dealt with issues, and I like tracing that through time.

But look, let me just give you just some statistics. In the 1970s, one in every three cases of sexual violence that ends up in court, and remember, very, very few do. But one in every three that end up in court, resulted in a conviction. That's 1970s. 1980s, it's one in five. 1990s, it's one in ten.

When I started, I wrote a previous book on sexual violence, it was one in 20. Today it's one in 22. So my rage was fueled by the fact that we have had 40 years of actually really good legal reform, 40 years of education. And things have got significantly worse. And I think it was those statistics. I mean, I know statistics aren't for everyone, but those were the statistics that made me think, hang on here, this is not the world I want to live in, I want to understand what's happening.

So rage, I think. And of course, talking to survivors, talking to people who have experienced this, you know, it's so inspirational the way that women, girls, minoritized people actually deal with these terrible, terrible things that happen to them. It's such a horrendously common moment. experience, isn't it? That there's even if you're someone that counts yourself for someone that's never experienced

sexual violence, you can guarantee that someone you love will have experienced it. And just for the sake of clarification, the World Health Organization's definition of sexual violence is, any sexual act, attempt to obtain a sexual act, unwanted sexual comments or advances, or acts to traffic

or otherwise directed against a person's sexuality using coercion by any person, regardless of their relationship to the victim in any setting, including but not limited to home and work. Yeah, it's a really inclusive definition and one that I strongly support, obviously. I think, though, again, putting on my history hat, it's really important to understand that the definitions of sexual violence have changed so dramatically over time. And, you know, if you're writing, you know, as I've done, a history of sexual violence,

you know, one of the things I was just so conscious of all the time was to pay attention to the way people in different times of history and in different geographical locations, how they understood sexual violence. So just like to historicize that because I think one of the real pitfalls in writing a global history is the risk of universalizing, the risk of, you know, of saying that it's been the same throughout time, throughout geographical place.

I mean, terror is always local. And, you know, I think if we kind of universalize it, we actually miss a lot of those nuances. And we miss really the human experience, which is what interests me. I'm interested in victim survivors and their understandings. I think that's really important. And the issue of sexual violence in the past, it's always been a really important. It's always been a really important issue, but I found it that it's thrown into quite sharp relief when you've got TV and movie depictions of a past that are very high in levels of sexual violence. You can see that in something like Game of Thrones, where every named character, female character in it is subjected to or threatened with sexual violence at some point.

And what was interesting about that was when those criticisms were put to the author, he, George Arara Martin, he defended it on the grounds that it's medieval history, which is kind of a bit mad because there's also Zonavis. zombies in it and dragons. So like, you know, how historically accurately being here. But that, every then medieval historian has to come out and kind of challenge that and be like, but we don't have the reliable statistics. We don't know. Like, it's not true that every single woman would have been sexually violated, but, but then we just don't know. And always speak to my students about this. One of the things that I'm really keen to press home is sexual violence has always been understood as wrong. I can't think of any culture that went, yeah, help yourself. But what they understood as sexual violence as varied spectacularly.

Yeah, absolutely. And it is what people see as sexual violence that I think is interesting. You know, the definition that I use of sexual violence in the book is any act that a person or third party says is sexual is sexual. And any act that a person says is non-consensual, violent is non-consensual and violent. So this allows me to historicize both parts of that sexual violence phrase. And I think that's really important because there is a risk, which I fell into, I think a few times in previous work, of taking legal definitions of sexual violence. But, you know, the law is so parsimonious in what they are designating as sexual violence.

You know, the law doesn't want to criminalize normal male behavior. So the definition that it uses is incredibly narrow. So it's really important to find a definition of sexual violence that can enable me to trace change over time. And that's really important. And what you say about the medieval period, any period in history, I think one of the real problems that we have when we're thinking about sexual violence is this idea that it's ubiquitous, that it's always existed, that it's kind of. kind of in male genes. It's kind of part of what it means to be a particular kind of human. And I think that's really, really dangerous because it leaves us no way of sort of fighting against it. In a sense, it justifies it. And it makes us think, well, you know, we can't do anything

about it. Let's just lock them up. You know, let's just take really much more causal or criminal law approaches to it, which is not the solution. One of the sort of the most pervasive, and difficult things about dealing with survivors of sexual violence today is so often people don't realize they have been victims of sexual violence immediately, which sounds kind of like, like, how could you not know, but people that have been abused as children, it's only like years down the line that they actually realized exactly what was going on or sort of like normalized behavior. Maybe it wasn't frat boys on, you know, university hazing. Maybe that wasn't okay. So how did you contend with that? Is that people today often struggle with understanding.

understanding what something that happened to them as being violent, let alone throughout the past. How did you cope with that? Yeah, I think that's a really interesting thing. I mean, these kinds of abuses are so deeply embedded in our culture that even people, as you say, who have been victimized often don't recognize it as victimization. You know, a really date rape, for example, you know, is something that is so common. You know, giving in to a persistent boyfriend or husband or partner or whatever is just so normalized, I should say, in our society. So it's difficult to recognize it when it happens to you, except often in retrospect. I think this is why it is really important to get a conversation going about the experiences of

sexual violence because by talking about it, victim survivors get a sense of it's not just me. You know, I didn't do something wrong. You know, it wasn't the fact that I wore a short skirt and I was out after midnight, you know, or I drank too much, or, you know, that this is a widespread problem and the shame should not be resting with victim survivors, but should be resting actually with those who perpetrate these acts. What was the significant view of writing a global history? I mean, it's ambitious and that's brave. You have my full admiration.

But why did you want to do that? Why? Because historians, the one of the things that we love to do is we love to find our little niche, don't we? Like, we love to find, like, you know, like I know people that spent their entire careers writing about one French poet that was written in the 14th century and they go to the convention with the other two people

that study that once a year. So, like, we like to get really just like, And you and saw this, a global history. Yeah, you're right. As you were intimating there, you know, I also have my little niche, which is, you know, British and American cultures, and I'm very confident and happy in that little niche. We do like our niches.

We do. We do. Yes, and who cares? It's good for us. But I think there are a number of responses to that. And I'm just going to be really honest with you, Kate. And that is that I wrote a book about sexual violence, actually about 14 years ago.

And it was Britain and America. So it was my nice little niche. And looking back on that book, I just thought, you know what? I'm doing exactly what I advise my students not to do. I think, there's a self-critique of my book. I think that I was taking the British and American experience of sexual violence as though this was.

a universal. I don't say it as much. I don't say that in the book. It's not naive in my book. But there is this implication that this is the norm against which the rest of the world, you know, can be understood and reflected. And that is not only colonialist thinking, it's racist thinking. And so that was really the personal, intellectual personal, our reason for it. But also, just, I found myself when I was reading scholars and feminists from the geopolitical cells, just getting so much inspiration for, firstly, the specificities of what they were talking about, which were very different to my British-American specificities, the ways that they were dealing with it, the ways their activism, the frames of meaning, that they were used.

and I just found it really exciting intellectually. There is no other global history of sexual violence. There's some very good global histories of sexual violence in wartime. That's a fantastic and extremely rich field. And I just thought, you know what? I can learn a lot myself through just being a lot more ambitious, stepping out of my comfort zone, learning from other scholars and other feminists

and other activists of all kinds. And I think this is why I loved writing the book because I started in one place and I finished in a totally different place. And I think that, I mean, that is great. Oh, you know this, Kate, with your own work. You know, I spent 10 years writing this book. You know, you see how you've changed intellectually.

Yeah. And that is very exciting. What do you think that it has changed about you? What have you learned on your journey? I think I've learned to be more. more optimistic, actually, that we can create a rape-free world. I've learned that there is a universe of ways that we can change our society and that we need actually to draw on a wider range of resistances, if you like. Those are the big ones. I mean, I've also learned that I'm not the

only angry person out there. There are horns of us who are furious with the situation that we're in, you know, girls, women, minorised peoples, you know, are still being abused in such high levels. And I think the reasons why that's happening, these are things that I've learnt in the course of writing. Have you found any universal truth? So is sexual violence something that can be found across times and across cultures? Yeah, sexual violence itself has always existed in some form. People have labelled certain things as sexually abusive or sexually violent across time. I think that's less interesting than asking, and therefore how do they put meaning? How do they find meaning in that? You know, because, for example, this is probably a

facetious example. But, you know, we can say people always had dinners. You know, it's not really interesting that people always have dinners together. What's interesting is how they ate, what they ate, who they ate with, you know, what happened in the process of eating and all those sorts of things. Now, that's what is really interesting. And I think the universal thing about sexual violence, yes, it's universal. It's always been there. But sometimes in some places it's been extremely low. other times and other places is extremely high. Sometimes certain acts are seen as abusive, not other acts. These things change.

A good example would be age of consent is a good example. That can change dramatically. If you're in the States, it can be age of consent can be 10. And you step over a state border and it's 18. So these sorts of things. So why is it 10 in some places and 18 and another? You know, it's got to do with ideas about who's a child, what is a child. It's got to do with ideas about the role of law.

It's got to do with notions of puberty. It's got to do with the strength of feminist and other child protection agencies, things like that. So those are the things that really interest me, I think. There's what, like, when you're looking from a historical point of view, is it's very tempting to sort of look and go, well, everything must have been much worse throughout history. We kind of have that sort of knee-jerk reaction to, it's like to the point where like, you know, if you describe something as being medieval,

it's not really a compliment. It's kind of like, er. And sort of the idea that sexual violence in the past, and I've even heard, you know, arguments against feminism and against the Me Too movement of basically being, it's great now, don't worry about it. Like, it's not as bad as it was in the past. But that's not quite true.

And, well, it's not true at all. And there are many examples throughout history of where sexual violence has been very strictly legislated against or, and it's certainly not true that it was absolutely endemic. Do you think that there are lessons that we can learn from history about how to do it better? It's a weird way of expressing it. But you know what I mean? Like, are the lessons? Yeah, I know what you mean. I think there are lessons we can learn. When I'm forced to make generalisations, the one I go to all the time is there is really good evidence that societies with low levels of inequality, high,

levels of female power, high levels of female employment, very low military spending. These are societies that have typically low levels of sexual violence. That's interesting. So, you know, if we are to tackle sexual violence, it's actually not enough just to tackle relationships between men and women, girls and boys and minorities, and minorities people. We actually need to make alliances. We need to make alliances with a huge range of progressive causes. You know, the great Kimberly Crenshaw popularized, she didn't actually invent it, popularized the term intersectionality. That, you know, somehow it's not enough just to fight sexism and then add on racism. You know, we need to fight sexism, racism, ageism, disableness, transphobia, heteronial.

normativity, climate denial, you know, these things, because they're all interconnected. And I think that's a really important lesson, I think, that we can take from history and take from feminists in history indeed. I'll be back with Joanna after this short break. How much of a tyrant really was Julius Caesar? Would we have ever stood a chance against the first dinosaurs? And did Helen of Troy really have the power to launch a thousand? ships. Well, you can expect all of this and more from The Ancents on History Hit. Join us twice a week,

every week, as we explore some of the greatest moments of our ancient past. Subscribe to the ancients wherever you get your podcasts. What do you think? I've often heard it said that rape isn't about sex, it's about power. What's your reaction to that quote? Do you think that, is that true? I mean, there's a huge debate in feminist circles about this. I'll tell you what you what my view is. And I think my view is, well, if it's only about power, then why didn't he just punch you in the face? No, so long as girls, women, and any victim, whatever, gender or non-bilely, whatever, so long as people who experience sexual violence feel that the sexual bit is different, then I think we have to say it does make it different than just power.

So that is my line. I mean, it is about both. Clearly, sexual violence is about power. Sexual violence is about domination. Sexual violence is about cruelty. It's about humiliation. It's about all these things. But people who experience it, experience it differently

because it affects what they are seeing as a sexual part of their being. And therefore, until that changes, I'm going to say, I think it's about both. It's not just about power. It's about sort of more like entitlement, I suppose. Kate, this is the most important thing. You really put your finger on it there.

It is about male and not only male and powerful people's sense of entitlement. And this is why, you know, going back to that question that we kind of started with about what is sexual violence, we all know, or we all can assume that if a person is wielding a knife, that, you know, there's something violent

going to happen. But you know, what about a husband who simply wears down a note? What about an employer who waives an unsigned employment contract? You know, I mean, is that violent? Yes, it is violent and it is sexual violence. But the person who perpetrated it doesn't view it as a violence, which is kind of why these things are so difficult to unpick because people, if you feel that you're entitled to it. And you can see all kinds of reaches from that. Like the guy who screeches at me from the car, get your tits out, love. I'm sure that somewhere he thought that that was a nice thing to have, to have done. And that I would have been on my merry way going, what a charming chap. Absolutely. And this is the thing that actually makes me really sad to be really brutally honest with you.

And that is that by not recognizing the harms you were doing to other people, actually it diminishes your life. That man who cries out, show me your knockers. His life is diminished by that. His full experience, his, we all want love. We all want to be liked. We all want this. He wants that.

But by acting in this way, that sense of entitlement, the sense that he thinks he has something over your body, you know, actually makes his life less. And that actually does make me sad. And this is why you're talking about it, is really important, especially encouraging boys and men and other powerful people of whatever background to talk about it is so important.

Because if we're going to change the culture of sexual violence, we have to engage with cisgender boys and men. I think that that's fascinating is obviously the role that men and boys play in this. And I really do feel sorry for the male gender as a body of people often. I expect, like there's lots of piss taking about the hashtag, not all men, not all men. But I can kind of understand that.

If there's something like all women are rapists being bandied around all the time and I'd be like, I'm not, I'm not, I didn't do it, I didn't do it. And it can feel like a personal attack and that must be very difficult. And this is a tricky question. This is a tricky question. But why do you think that sexual violence is so often male against a female body? Why is it so often that it's the male perpetrator? And women do perpetrate this and we'll get to that in just a sec. But what's going on there?

Why do you think that? Because I don't buy into the idea that men are just more highly sexed than women. I think that's a patriarchal load of bullshit and women enjoy sex just as much. Absolutely. I think it does just go back to the sense of entitlement of what it means to be a boy, what it means to be a man, that it is to have, the bodies of girls and women. Of these people.

And if it was flipped and if we were in a toxicly matriarchal society, it might be women hollering at men, get your tudge you out. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think that, you know, this is why when I'm talking, I've spent a lot of time talking to young men in particular about this. Because exactly what you say, Kate, you know, they don't, they don't want to be rapists. They want a loving relationship. Or they want lots of love.

relationships. So I think this whole sort of 1970s, 80s mantra, all men are either rapists, rape fantasists or beneficiaries of a rape culture. And that last one is the really tough one, beneficiaries of a rape culture. Because if there is anything that does have some force in it, it is that men can benefit from it. I mean, I argue that they don't benefit from it because it diminishes their life. It reduces the love that they all receive and the affection and the joy and the sexual pleasure that they will get. Yeah. I mean, it destroys that. So, but that mantra, I think, it served an important political purpose when it was invented and it was crucial in forging your second wave as feminism in getting women to, you know, a sense of solidarity between women

happened to be mainly white women, but let's talk about that. So it was important politically, but the time for that is long gone. And I think young men are really leading the field. And there are so many activist men all over the world who are so deeply involved in the anti-rape movement. And we just need to really encourage that and give them the space. for that. I think that that's really important and I I can completely empathise with men that feel blame about this where they don't feel that there is blame or fear that

they're going to do something that they didn't mean to do but you know what I see it changing I see it changing already like the next generation that coming through with the students that I teach the attitudes are already different wasn't even that long ago two labs were in my class and one of them I didn't see what he showed him on his phone but I'm going to think it was a pornographic image. And he just looked, and the other large looked to me and went, that's not cool, dude. And then that was it.

And then he just stopped. You put it away. And I was like, that's a, that's a shift. That's a, and it's that kind of just like, we don't really do this anymore. Like it's not. And there's another thing that I've seen it shift with, this is completely random. But conalinguish, for a long time that had this kind of idea that it's something quite shameful that real men don't do it, that you don't pleasure you women.

You don't even see it that often in porn unless it's specialist porn. and that narrative is shifting, thanks to Harry Stiles and his song, watermelon sugar high. And that kind of, that narrative is shifting. Actually, it just means you shit in bed is what that means. So I think that you can see things changing and shifting. Yeah, I agree totally. This is why I'm real optimist. I mean, young people today are really experimenting in really positive ways.

You know, kind of link is one example. But also, you could take other examples. of you're moving away from the simply penis-centered idea. Yes. I put my penis in there and you will be grateful. Yes. Yeah. But that, you know, this idea that actually the male body is a erotic organ, not simply, you know, that little space there, that rather small little space there, that the whole body is, or can be an erotic organ. And I think that is a really positive thing. Because once you start taking that step,

then you also can see the other person's entire body as something to be pleasureed and to be enjoyed and celebrated. That's really important, isn't it? And I was speaking to a friend of mine once, who's a sex therapist, and he said something, and it kind of stayed with me for a long time. I'm still picking my way through it. We were talking about male violence against women

and about sexual assault and kind of all that stuff, and he said it's rooted in shame, you know. Like you've no idea how much men, fear women being shame. And then I came back with that, yeah, women fear men killing them, so just shut up. And he was like, yeah, but okay, I hear that. But what motivates that violence a lot at the time is a sense of shame. And I just wonder what you thought of that. Yeah, I agree totally. I think there is great sense of shame amongst men. I think the expectations that are put upon men are unbearable, to be really brutally honest about it. I think that the media,

their peers too often have this extremely idealized view of what a man is, what a man looks like, what his genitals look like, what should be done with them performance issues. And I think the fact that Viagra is used by such a huge proportion of men, including young men, you don't need it. You know, I think that is really indicative of a real problem of male body and a male sense or pride and joy in their bodies. And that when there's any kind of rejection or they feel that that's hyper-masculinity, they can't meet, the shame can be crippling. It's always stayed with me. I just thought that was really fascinating. Could you talk to me a little bit about women committing acts of sexual violence? because it was very wrong to leave that out

because it's a very under-researched area, as I'm sure that you know better than anybody, but women do commit acts of sexual violence. And I was wondering what your research has shown about that. Yeah, I've actually published a lot, not only in the disgrace book, but also in articles on female perpetrators of sexual violence, because I think it's important not to essentialise this

and say it's about masculinity. I think it's important also to recognize, that, you know, cruelty is not the preserve of one sex, one gender. I think it is important to acknowledge that women also commit acts of sexual abuse, sexual violence. They are a distinct minority. They're a very small proportion of offenders, but they are offenders. And if you look at the sexual abuse of children, particularly boy children, actually female offenders are a significant proportion, about a third of people who abuse boys are women. And this is because women have access to the bodies of young children

and they act in sexually abusive ways towards these children. So there are two instances where women are offenders. The first I've just mentioned, which is against children. The second is they can offend alongside a male, usually a male partner and a husband. So you get Myra Hindley, for example, Rose West. These are extreme examples of really extremely abusive, murderous acts of sexual violence committed by women, but they wouldn't have done it if it wasn't for their partners. So those are the instances where it does happen. And I suppose it's still tangled up around very different narrative.

women abusing, like a young boy having sex with his female teacher is somehow still a subject of fantasies and there's this idea of like, oh, I should be so lucky surrounding it. Whereas if it was a woman, a girl child who had been, then we would immediately recognize that now as that sexual assault. Yeah, exactly. And teachers abusing their male students is a common scenario. And for the reasons you give, it's not seen as somehow wrong. Boys are supposed to be always up for it. It's a right of passage. You know, they're getting experience, you know, sexual experience. You know, these are all the really corrosive myths that not only excuse female perpetrators, but also make it so much more difficult for people who are being abused

to say this is abusive. You know, so there are so many ways that victims are. of sexual violence are silenced. But for men, boys and men, there are additional reasons for them silencing themselves. And one of them is, oh, it was a woman. I'm supposed to want it. This is supposed to be exciting. You know, that what will other people think of me?

These are powerful things in silencing male survivors. You seem like such an upbeat and optimistic person. And like people listening can't see you, but you're very smiley and you're like clothes and you've got a lovely happy face and a happy demeanor. And how do you study something like this and retain that? How do you study like the global history of just some of the worst things that people have done and still come away with it with your sanity intact? How do you protect yourself? Maybe you should ask my friends if I'm really sane. There are two responses to that.

I mean, the first is, is that I make a lot. actually very privileged. I'm a white middle-class woman with the job. That gives me a strength, a solidity. You know, I live in safe places and actually I'm surrounded by loving men. You know, I have a lot of male friends who are just so loving and so open and warm and smart. You know, not everyone is in that position. And therefore, I'm not as threatened. are by some of these issues. So I think that's one reason. But I think more important than that, or as important than that, is I really do believe that there is a way forward. I do believe that we can create rape-free worlds and that there are really practical things that each and every

one of us can do with that in mind. And I think that optimism is really important. The most dispiriting the most destructive thing for anyone working on violence generally, let alone sexual violence, is this idea that, you know, there is no alternative. You know, Tina, favorite Favittcher's phrase, you know, there is no alternative. I think there is an alternative. I think there are things we can do. And that gives energy, that gives an optimism that I constantly want to stress. And I spend a lot of time in the book actually talking about effective ways to combat

sexual violence in our own lives and in the lives of others. What are some of those strategies? I mean, sort of the optimism that we can create a rape-free world is, I think sometimes we need reminding of that, that it's not like an accepted, this is just what has to happen. It's not. But how do you see us getting there? Okay.

I think there are five things that each and every one of us can do, five principles, if you like, local. In other words, anything we do, must be based in our local communities. These are the centres that we know. These are the environments we know. So local is really, really important. You know, we don't have to change the world.

We change our family. We change our neighbourhood. You know, we do what we can locally. I think that's really important. I think diversity is a second important thing that, and I mean diversity in two ways. First, in terms of diversity in terms of personnel. You know, for too long, cisgendered men and boys have been marginalized.

We need, really, to get them really involved in this. But I also mean diversity in the terms of strategy. There isn't one strategy for creating rape-free worlds, that we actually need to explore different strategies based on basically our own proclivities, our own talents, our own communities. So, you know, a sort of a really diverse strategic approach. You know, each one of us, you know, whether we're academics, whether we are homemakers, whether we are teachers, whether we are journalists, whether we are scientists, you know, we each have spheres

of influence. And they require different strategies to effectively make a difference. I think the third one, which is one that people don't mention much, and that is pleasure. You know, Kate, you know, doing anti-rape activism is depressing or can be depressing. So we need to think of seductive, powerful, creative ways of giving ourselves energy. You know, through the arts, for example, through theatre, through music, these are all ways that we can do it. The fourth is, on the body. So hashtag feminism has been great. Hashtag feminism has provided us with a way of a different way of talking about sexual violence. But actually to make change, you need bodies. You need people actually protesting on the streets. You need people coming together as opposed to sitting in

solitary in one's room typing on a computer. And the final thing is we need coalitions with all progressive groups, you know, that sexual violence won't be eradicated just by tackling sexism or racism. We need, you know, to tackle the huge range of problems within our society. So this does entail, I think, a shift from, if you like, identity politics, you know, who we are to what we want to achieve. So goal-orientated politics. So those are the, you know, the five things that, just real shorthand that I think are really important. But you know, everyone out there has different ways that they can contribute to this. And if we're going to eradicate sexual violence, we're going to need everyone. Joanna, you have been just incredible to talk to today. And I've actually really

enjoyed this. I didn't think I didn't, I thought this would be a really difficult and depressing subject. And it has been, but I've kind of leaving it feeling quite optimistic, which I wasn't expecting. But if people want to know more about you and your research in the book, where can they find you. My website. I'm based at Birkbeckbeck College, B-I-R-K-B-E-C-K-B-B-E-C-K-B-B-B-B-E-C-K-K-K. You know, my book disgrace is out in a few days, which I'm really, really excited about. It's published by Reaction Books. I've got a Twitter account at Birk-Jewanna. There's lots of ways people contact me, and I'm always happy to have emails and stuff. Thank you so much for joining me today, Joanna. You have been incredible to talk to.

Seriously, I do love your stuff. And I follow you. and I was so excited when I heard that it was going to be you. Yay! Thank you so much for listening and thank you to Joanna for coming on the show and sharing your incredible research. If you like what you've heard, please don't forget to like, review and subscribe wherever it is that you get your podcasts. Join me again betwixt the sheets, The History of Sex Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast includes music by Epidemic Sounds.