Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Sports Bra

Episode Date: April 7, 2023

REAL LIFE INVENTOR ALERT!!!Two jockstraps cleverly sewn together. That was how the very first sports bra was made in 1977. The product built out from this prototype, the “Jog Bra”, went on to change women’s athletics forever.Lisa Lindhal who, together with her friends Polly and Hinda, unleashed the sports bra on the world. In this episode from our sister podcast, Patented: History of Inventions, she spoke to Dallas Campbell . The episode was produced by Freddy Chick. The editor was Anisha Deva. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.For more History Hit content, subscribe to our newsletters here. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? We'll sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles.

Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Lovely bitwifixters, it's me, Kate Lister. I am here with your fair do's warning to warn you that this is a podcast of an adult nature with adults speaking to other adults in an adulty way about adulty things. And if you're not an adult, you have to leave right now, run, get away from this horribleness. And if you do stay and listen and you get offended,

then you're just going to have to say, well, fair do's. She did warn us. Hello, and her. And welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, The History of Sex Scandal and Society with me, Kate Lister. Running, jumping, skipping, climbing trees, these are all activities that for many of us are accompanied by a wobble, a clap and more than a little bit of discomfort. Even more so, if you don't happen to be wearing a sports bra. But just when was the sports bra invented?

What was it that gave the inventor the idea and how did this simple undergarment change sports for women? Today we are over with our sister podcast, Patented, where Dallas Campbell spoke to Lisa Lindhall, who together with her friends Polly and Hinder unleashed the sports bra on the world in the form of the jog bra. I am feeling supported if you are. Let's get into this.

What do you look for a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning it up and pushing the funny. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, I feel for them. Goodness, has nothing to do with it, Terry.

Hey, welcome to the show. Actually, before we start, did you watch the England-Germany game? No. Why did you not watch the England-Germany game last week? The truth is I don't watch sports. Huh, interesting. Well, I thought of you because Chloe Kelly, who scored the winning goal, she took a shirt off and she did the whole sports bra thing.

And I think she was, was it like 20 years ago? There was an American footballer, soccer player who did a similar thing. And I think she was, it was a kind of homage to maybe that moment. Brandy Chastain is her name. Correct. Anyway, listen to this. Lucy Ward, who's a writer and she wrote a really, really interesting piece in the Guardian newspaper about it. He said, this image of a woman shirtless in a sports bra, hugely significant.

This is a woman's body, not for sex or show, just for the sheer joy. of what she can do and the power and skill she has. Wonderful. And I added to you at that. It got something like 13,000 retweets. I mean, he went crazy. That picture of Chloe kind of running around with the joy and the exuberance on her face was brilliant. And it caused a real stir in the UK. I was head like, my God, she's taking her shirt off. Anyway, read Lucy's article in the guy that's really interesting about because all kinds of things are brought up. I didn't know, for example, that women's football was banned in the UK for quite a long time. Well, a lot of sports. were not available to women or being active. There's a long history. One of the things that I was brought up with was horses sweat, men perspire, and ladies glow. The Boston Marathon, you know, women weren't allowed to run in it. You know, I remember watching kind of old black and white footage of Wimbledon, and you see women in like long skirts and like ridiculous attire.

I love your book. I've read your book cover to cover. Really? Yes, really. And it's terrific. I tell you why it's terrific. It's terrific not just because of your description of how you invented the jog bra, the sports bra as it became known, but just as an insight into your mind, I feel like it's that really strange thing now. I feel like I know you, I know you very well. But anyway, there we go. Unleashed the girls it's called. Let's just start at the beginning. Let's go back in time. I remember 1977. There was something about 1977. I was thinking about that particularly year. This is. This is the year where you had your epiphany. This needs to be invented moment. Elvis died. The Voyager spacecraft were launched.

Star Wars came out. Close encounters came out. It was just a big year for change and dramatic things. There seemed to be a kind of zeitgeisty year. It was a time not unlike now where everything was pregnant with change. The old rules and now I'm supposed to's and all of that. was eroding. And as a young woman, you were trying to figure out, okay, what can I do, what works, what doesn't work, you know, does this feel right? Does it not? Because the only constant is change,

of course, we all know. But it's not all, it's often not easy, not easy at all. I think sort of change and a bit like innovation and technology, it isn't a smooth upward trajectory ever. It's always kind of jumpy and jerks and there are moments in history where lots of things seem to be changing. I think lots of things seem to be changing now. But certainly that period of the mid-70s seemed to be a big period of change and technical innovation. But just for our listeners, our younger listeners, who might not remember 19707. What were you doing, though?

Tell me what Lisa was doing in 1977 to get you into the position where you had this moment of like, you know what? I need to invent the sports bra. And we'll come on to that in a moment. But give us a bit of background into your, into your young. young life? Well, I was never entirely comfortable in my body. You know, I used to cut gym classes and the girls that were jocks and active and all this other stuff totally. That was not my crew. My crew was the artsy, mischievous crowd. And my idea of exercise was swimming in the ocean or

climbing a tree or nothing with competition, nothing organized. I hated organized sports. But when I was in my mid-20s, I was working as a secretary. I was an artist with a studio in my basement. And I was gaining weight. And I was not used to that. So a friend of mine said, start running. You know, hey, everybody's running now. And I kind of went, all right.

Well, Dallas, I fell in love with jogging. I mean, it became, in fact, my first, I realized later, spiritual practice. So we've got you in the artsy crowd. If you were in the Breakfast Club movie, you'd have been this of Ali Sheedy character, I think. Right. And what's really wonderful about this is that the woman who helped me turn my idea into a real thing because she could sew, I couldn't, was with me in school back then.

We met in eighth grade and she became one of my partners in Jogbaugh. Nice. We're going to come on to that at the moment. Just tell me, 977, what we're going to be? women's sport was like? I mean, we sort of alluded to the fact that didn't really exist to the same extent as it exists now. It didn't at all. I mean, the other thing that happened around then was when the Battle of the Sexes, it was called, was a tennis game between Bobby Riggs and Billy Jean King. And he really did not believe a woman could beat him. And she did. But the other thing that was

going on at the time was women's, well, in the U.S. anyway, in 1972, the government passed what's called Title IX, which said any federally funded activity had to be equal for men and women, and that affected sports in all the colleges and high schools tremendously. But what it didn't address was the discomfort and self-consciousness. The young girls and young women were experiencing when they went out on the court or the field because their breasts were uncomfortable, the bras were digging in, the straps are slipping off. They're constructed for style and fashion, not for function. And that really was a problem.

As a man, you know, we have jock straps. So we used to have, do people still wear jock straps? I mean, I certainly wore jock straps in the 1980s. But that was your inspiration, wasn't it? You kind of thought, well, hang on, men have jock straps to give them support, to hold it all in. It all started as a joke. Between my sister and I, she just started running and she said, what do you do? What do you wear for a bra?

and I told her nothing worked, and she said, why isn't there a jockstrap for women? Same idea, just a different part of the anatomy. We laughed. We thought that was so funny. But I sat down and said, yeah, why isn't there a jockstrap for women? And in fact, the first working prototype was Polly took two jock straps, took the pouch and the pouch and sewed them together and made two cups, the straps crossed in the back. The waistband became a ribband, and that was actually the first working prototype. Please tell me you still have that prototype somewhere framed in a box on the wall in some museum or something. When we went to mass produce these, the original prototype got taken apart in order to make patterns and to grade it, actually,

because when you're making a garment, you have to grade it for different sizes. But there is a replica, a close one that's in the Smithsonian here in the US and also in the Metropolitan Museum of Arts costume collection. They have a very early jog bra. Okay, so you have this idea, you've identified this problem, you're a runner. You mentioned a name, you mentioned Polly, who was your roommate? No, she was, well, she wasn't your own, but she had an interesting career

because she was a costume designer for the Muppets, which is my favorite bit of trivia. So she made like Miss Piggies. She did all the puppet costume, not all, but many, many, many of the puppet costumes. And she did some movies, Dark Crystal, Muppet Christmas Carol. So you call her up because you're a lousy seamstress. Well, she was actually staying with me that summer because she was doing a gig, a Shakespeare festival gig and needed someplace to stay.

And it happened to be where I live. So she was in my guest room, and I just went upstairs. The thing is, we have a long history of getting into trouble together in school and pulling mischief. And so I went up to her, and I said, Polly, I have this idea, a bra for running, for jogging, you know, be supportive. And she kind of rolled her eyes and said, oh, come on, you know, really? Because she thought my running was, we used to skip gym class together. She didn't understand my sudden desire to be jogging, and she didn't get it. But the design challenge of building such a garment really captured her attention.

And that's what sucked her into trying to figure it out. So tell me, from that moment of epiphany, you make a prototype with your friend Polly, which is the two jockstrap sewn together. Did you run with the jockstrap prototype? Oh, yes. And the other innovative thing is that it went over the head and you pulled it down over your breasts. And the straps crossed. And up until this point, there was nothing like that on the market.

All the bras clasped either in the front or the back. The cross straps, which later became like a T-back, was also new. You only saw that in racing swimsuits, but never in regular life. I went running in it, and I was really excited because I was feeling much more supported than in anything else I had worn. And I came back in and said to Polly, this is it, this is it. The fabric is terrible. It's itchy. It's scratchy.

You know, the elastic is terrible. But different fabric, different elastic, we have solved the engineering part of the problem. And so Polly went to New York and she found a new fabric that no one knew. DuPont didn't know what to do with it. But they thought it was kind of a dirty thing. And it was cotton with Lycra in it. Lycra was new. Funny you should mention DuPont actually

because I dug out a book of mine. This is one of my favorite books. In it there's a picture. It's an old Playtex advert from the 1960s for the viewers. It's women dancing around wearing a girdle and underwear to show these new materials and how Lycra is made by DuPont and how flexible it was. And actually it was the seamstresses at Playtex

who made those garments, who made the Apollo space suits. It was Playtex, the bra makers, because for exactly the reasons, talk about, Playtech suddenly had had these new materials and they understood movement and they understand how materials work together and they understand engineering and movement and lo and behold, the spacesuit was born. We did a program about it. I didn't know that story. That is a really good story. That's great. It is. It's my second favorite bra story other than your bra story,

which is my number one favorite. So, okay, so you've got a working prototype. Polly's off in New York with new materials. At what point does it suddenly become? a business. You've got a name. You're going to call it the jock bra after the kind of jock strap and jock as in the kind of sporty kind of thing. So tell us the kind of process from that through to you having a patent, an actual invention. How do you invent a bra? Like, presumably anyone could just copy a bra. You would think. Enter the third player. Polly had an assistant in her design shop, Hinda Schreiber. And Hinda was very enthusiastic. She said, what are you guys doing? Because we'd be up at the costume shop.

cutting and sewing in different prototypes. And Polly was clear from the beginning that if whatever I was going to do, she was just going to help me make it. She was not interested in business. She was a costume designer. Hinda got it. You know, Polly wasn't athletic. Hinda was athletic. She was a downhill skier. She'd been athletic all her life. She'd been in that group of girls that I wasn't a part of. And so Hinda joined us and thinking about what to do with this, how to blah, blah, blah. And Polly, again, was very clear. She said, you can't, I thought we could do a cottage industry. I'd been a crafts person.

I thought, oh, we'll have people make it. No, Polly was very clear. Quality control would be an issue, and that, especially sewing stretchy. As the Delaware seamstresses would know, sewing stretch to stretch is very difficult. It takes a lot of skill. Anyway, so the three of us spent that summer together

developing this thing and talking about it and thinking about it. And I sent the prototype down to Hinda, who at the time she was teaching in South Carolina. South Carolina used to be a big garment industry. There are a lot of mills there, but it was kind of dying. And she found a couple who had started their own cut and sew business. I mean, in terms of business, we were one product in three sizes. No real factory was going to take us on to mass produce this. They'd scoff.

blah. But these two, it was their start. So they took apart the prototype, helped grade it into the different sizes, because it was built on me, the prototype, and created small, medium and large. And Hinda's family, our father, loaned us the money to make that initial run. Did you have anything kind of copywritten, like actual patterns that you could say, this is ours? It couldn't be copied. Like, did you have an invention as such? Or was it just another bra. You know, after we figured out how to mass produce it, then I started the patent process. And even though we were told, patting a garment is very difficult. You just change a seam. You just change a thread spec. But what it did, it did two things. The first thing it did was

no one could copy us while the patent was pending. They didn't know how to change it. They didn't know how to break it. And back then, and remember, this is before computers, before the internet. So the patent process took a long time. And during that time, no one could copy us or come out with a sports bra or a jog bra. Now, one of the things that's important to say here is that had I been a real business person and done market research about bra sales and all that other stuff, I would never have started this business because the market research would have shown me that bra sales had been flat, unintended, had been flat for the past decade. And all the big guys like Playtex and Vanity Fair and all,

they were just cannibalizing market share. The number wasn't going up at all. It was the same amount. In fact, it was declining because we were the second wave feminists. We were burning our bras, if not literally, certainly metaphorically. So there was definitely a broad decline because of the zeitgeist, the feminist zeitgeist of the mid-70s. Yeah, I think so. I mean, we rejected the girdles and the stockings and the, you know, all that other pantyhose came into being.

So I was a participant. I was a consumer for this product. I was not in business school or a business head. I thought I was an artist and a writer. So I wasn't thinking that way. But what happened as a result? The sports bra category kicked up the number of bra sales dramatically, year. after year. And that's when Olga and Vanity Fair and they all made their version of a sports bra. But their marketplace was different as well because these were the people that were in department store lingerie. You know, like in the UK it would be Harrods, I guess, right? I guess so, but you didn't pitch your bra against bras. It was a sports product rather than platex cross your heart bra. I would say very strongly this is The jog bra is athletic equipment. It is not lingerie.

Dallas will be back with Lisa after this short break. On Gone Medieval from History Hit, we set out to solve the biggest mysteries of the Middle Ages. So many of these travellers who went out looking for press to John, what did they think they were hearing? We explore cutting-edge research. Genetic signatures found in present-day Jewish populations were shared by the genetic ancestries we found. From everyday life to dynasty-shattering events. It's a time when all the major Viking raids have started, which as Christians they think of as vengeance from heaven. And reveal the answers to centuries-old riddles.

I stand up straight in a bed. I'm hairy at my base and I make the ladies cry. The solution is an onion. I'm Dr. Kat Jarman. And I'm Matt Lewis. Every Tuesday on Saturday will explore some of the biggest stories, the greatest mysteries and latest research. Listen and follow on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. You say jog broad. Tell me about the name change. because it was originally the jock bra,

and now you're calling it the jog bra. So what happened that? Hinda was in the cell, and she was taking it around a sporting good store saying, what do you think of this? What do you think? And someone said to her, you know, here in the cell,

jock is not such a nice word. What? Because to me, jock just meant someone who was athletic, you know, and into it. And it had a male connotation for sure, but I kind of thought that was cool. you know, jock bra.

But when we learned that some people might take offense, we changed it to jog bra. And there you go. Tell me about when you sort of officially launched it. In the beginning, I had just started graduate school, and I thought that this would be a nice little mail order business on the side as I continued my studies. But these orders came in so fast and so heavy

and from sporting goods stores as well, that we realized that we had a tiger by the tail. And we launched it by going to the National Sporting Goods Association Trade Show in Chicago and hiring a bunch of sales representatives because I was too stupid to know that you should probably start small and do it regionally. And again, there's no internet here. There's no internet orders. This is you in your front room. Yes.

This is. And we didn't know anything. and that actually turned out to be to our advantage because we'd ask questions and people were so generous with their information and their knowledge. And I was so passionate about the product. The reps and the retailers would say, I can't carry a bra in my sporting goods store. And I would say, you carry jockstrops, don't you? And they go, oh. And I'd also ask them how many of their customers were women who were coming in to buy running shoes or tennis shoes or whatever.

and they go, oh, I said, every one of those customers will buy this. And I was right. They did. Did you become fabulously wealthy very, very quickly? No, I became a workaholic very quickly. There's no such thing as weekends. I was working or traveling for work. And we paid ourselves very little because everything was going back into building more inventory to meet the orders. And did you have, you know, obviously you have different sizes. Did you start to experiment with different styles and different ideas or did you have, okay, this is what the jog bra looks like. This is it. Did you have a whole sort of R&D section that was planning new models and such? Yes, because the original jog bra was built on my body and I, five, six, medium bone, you know, I'm not a petite woman and we heard from our customers all the time a lot.

And one of the first things we heard was your jog bra is too much. It's too big for me. You have a smaller version. So we ended up within a few years with an entire line of sports bras. And one of them was a more petite one. Eventually, we made one for larger breasted women, which is a totally different construction and design from the original jog bra. And we developed something that I wish now that I had patented as well. And that was, we came up with the concept of motion control requirements. Meaning, if you're running, you need more control than if you're walking or if you're doing aerobics, which is more sporadic. So we came up with this whole point of purchase display. A woman could say, okay, I'm a 34C and I'm running.

So this is the sports bra that I need. That's great. That's exactly what's required. You have this great success. And, you know, obviously it's a big hit and, you know, it gets carried in stores. tell me about your relationship with the other two. As the kind of business goes along, there's three of you here. You go from artist to runner to inventor to entrepreneur in a really short space of time.

How does that affect you? There's one thing we haven't mentioned, which is your epilepsy, which is something that you suffered from, and something that you talk a lot about now. And I'm just wondering on a personal level, your condition and your relationships with your business partners, how all that changed? It's actually a great story because we were three very different women. I honestly believe that the sports bra would not have been born in Vermont in 1977 if it weren't for all three of us and the unique properties that we brought into this process.

Polly could take my idea and create it in cloth and elastic, which I could never have done. Polly was very clear that she did not want to be part of the business. She'd support it. She'd do stuff in New York where she lived. but she was not going to give up being a costume design. Hinda was not so happy being in the costume design world, which is what she was trained for as well. And she really got, she saw the marketing,

the sales potential for this product. And she wanted to get it out there. And I had spent a few months trying to figure out how to market it, you know, whether we were going to make it or whether we were going to license it or how in hell we were going to monetize it at all, if at all. And Hindra just went, she found this factory. She took apart the prototype. She built it.

And also, I'm a visionary. If there's an issue or a problem, I'll think of 400 different ways to go at it and maybe never pick one to actually do. Whereas Hinda would hear the first one and go, okay, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it would be done. So we were in many ways perfect partners,

but our styles were different, our values were different. So we were never friends, Hinda and I. But nobody knew that. To the world we looked like, you know, two wonderful women entrepreneurs. Because by that time, Polly had started working for Henson and Associates and was not part of those in early years at all. And so was there an acrimony? Yes, yes, there was.

And part of that is because both Hinda and I were, as I said, very different. people, but we had two things in common that saw us through, and that is we were both interested in and participating in personal growth. You know, who am I? What do I want? What are my, you know, and the second thing is both of us really cared about the success of what we call our baby. The phenomenon of the jog bra, which took us by surprise. You know, as you said, I think in the beginning, Dallas, how many women are empowered or feeling powerful, being in sports and being successful. And the sports bra was a real catalyst for that to be able to happen on a much larger scale. It seems reading your book that that is as important as designing a bra, the fact that

you have supported women. And I guess that comes from the zeitgeist. You talk about second wave feminism. This seems to fit right into that moment in time. Here's something that you can do to support women, not just physically, but in all senses. Exactly. Emotionally, psychologically, I have epilepsy. And I grew up feeling that I was dependent. I was told I could never live alone. You know, I couldn't be alone. I don't know what anybody knows about epilepsy or not,

but it's unpredictable. You don't know when you're going to have a seizure, when something's going to happen. So I grew up not feeling empowered in my body. So that what the sports bra did was by taking away the discomfort and the self-consciousness for many women, it really removed a barrier. And the epilepsy is one of the reasons why I was even beginning to run because I didn't have a driver's license. You know, I had to walk to work or take the bus or whatever. And this was the first time that running allowed me to be friends with my body, to really enjoy it and to feel powerful and creative.

and all those juices were flowing. That picture of Chloe Kelly, I'm just holding it up to the screen so you can see waving her shirt. It's all about the sports bra. It's all about the invention. It's doing exactly what you've just said, not just about supporting women's physical breasts,

but supporting women and women's sport generally. It's become this great symbol, hasn't it? Yes, it is a symbol of supporting women in whatever their endeavors are, you know, learning to persevere, learning to work up to like this mile or that mile or challenging your body. And it's between you and you, which, you know, as I've said,

I was never a competitive athlete. And even in running, I didn't run in races and stuff. That to me was so not the point. To me, the point was between me and me, pushing myself. You know, could I go further? Could I run that hill? You know, and that, I think, is when a woman is really testing her own limits, trying it out.

It's funny, actually. She just replied to me on. Twitter, actually, the woman who I mentioned Lucy, who wrote that article that got a gazillion retweets in that photo. And I told her I was talking to you right now. She just said, tell her, we all owe her. Oh, that's great. I kind of wonder what your feelings are when you see women everywhere, all over the way. Every woman owns a sports bra. How does that make you feel? I had no idea in those years of running jog bra and all that, how significant the sports bra was. I was just going from one day. to the next. And it took probably 30 years before I realized this wasn't going away. The phenomenon

kept growing. And, you know, I tried to say, oh, but I've done this and I invented this other thing. And I started this business. And, oh, I'm an artist. And oh, by the way, I wrote a book. And it didn't matter. What mattered was you invented the sports for a lot. We could get into your other inventions, breast cancer, compression, things and all the stuff you do for epilepsy. So I apologize that you're, you're forever going to be forever remembered as the sports problem. So now I'm proud. I get that I've really helped a lot of women and girls and I'm humbled, really, by this phenomenon and proud. I speak to a lot of people on this podcast. And I remember when we started doing it, we really wanted to try and kind of understand what makes, like, why do inventions happen? Why does innovation happen?

What are the ingredients? And it's funny because your story is so different to Thomas Edison or, Henry Ford or something else. You just, you have a completely different kind of outlook on life and a different way of thinking about things. I just wondered what you think the ingredients of innovation are. Like for you, like why did no one invent a sports barrow in the 1960s, for example? And what was it about you that you think has been so instrumental in making it happen? Well, I think the ingredients to innovation are perception, perseverance, and vision. I'm sort of saying, and I feel like I'm saying all the same things using different words, there was a need that was not being solved or solved adequately. And selfishly, I wanted it to be solved a different way. And so persevered

through some false starts and found the right helpers, because the other thing is, you know, we don't do anything by ourselves. So I think the ability to perceive, to be innovative, which is all about imagination. You know, Albert Einstein said, I'm paraphrasing, but imagination is way more important than intellect or anything else. Which goes into your whole idea that you were talking about, actually not knowing the rules, is much more empowering. You're much more empowered as an amateur than you're as a professional. As an amateur, you're not burdened by what I call the now I'm supposed to, or this is the way it's done. But as an amateur, you also have to be very open. You have to ask for help, you have to listen and evaluate. And, you know, so somebody says, well, this is how you make a bra.

I have two cups. You go, yeah, all right. But, you know, so, so I think part of the success of innovation is understanding that barriers are just teaching you a different way to go. You know, okay, I can't go here, so I'll go here. I'll go around. And that's something I was very adept at, because of having epilepsy. You know, any day could be ruined. You make a plan and it gets blown away when you're not well. And so I learned to always have a contingency plan or, you know, ways around things. Or if it doesn't happen this way, how can I do it?

Or even as simple things like, all right, I'm dating this guy. When do I tell him? You know, you got to think about all this. So I think that I was especially suited to do something that I'd never done before and had no idea how to do. Lisa, thank you so much for coming on this show. I'm going to just plug your book, Unleash the Girls is what it's called. It's got a great cover. The untold story of the invention of the sports bra and how it changed the world and me, most importantly.

There we go. And it's terrific. And you've got another book as well, which is about beauty, I suppose. Is that the right the word? an applied philosophy because when I ask myself what really matters, nourishing beauty, you know, blah, blah, blah, words are not everything. So there are 16 practices of how to bring more beauty into your life. And we're not talking cosmetics or appearance. We're talking what I call true beauty because I really think that that will help us in this world right now.

I agree. You're an inventor. You're a campaigner. You're a philosopher. A philosophize. and it's been an absolutely pleasure to have you on. Lisa, thank you very much indeed. Thank you. It's been a pleasure, Dallas. It's been an honour to be on. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening.

And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and subscribe wherever it is that you get your podcasts. Join me again, The Twix the Sheets, The History of Sex Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit.