Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - The History of Periods

Episode Date: March 3, 2023

‘It’s my time of the month’, ‘the painters are in’, ‘aunt flo is visiting’, or a simple ‘I’m on the rag’Periods are a fact of life for so many people. So how have they been understood? How have they been talked about and concealed? And why have periods stopped so many people from going swimming?In this episode, Kate is joined by Elissa Stein, one of the authors of FLOW: the Cultural Story of Menstruation to find out how menstruation has been dealt with throughout history. This episode was requested by Betwixter Lisa. If you also have a request, please let us know at [e-mail].*WARNING there are adult words and themes in this episode*Produced by Charlotte Long and Sophie Gee. Mixed by Anisha Deva.Betwixt the Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society. A podcast by History Hit.For more History Hit content, subscribe to our newsletters here.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? We'll sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles.

Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Blooper Twlixters, it's me, Kate Lister. I am here with your fair do's warning to protect you from yourselves, to protect you from me, to protect you from the absolute filth that is this podcast. Today, we are actually talking about the history of periods. It's not very rude, but there's a lot of blood periods, bodily functions, and you might just be sat there trying to enjoy a prune yoghurt to yourself,

and you might just not want to listen to this. In which case, fair do's. Get out now. You have been warned. This is a very special episode because today's episode was requested by a listener. Hi, Kate.

My name is Lisa, and I'm listening in from Norway, big fan of the podcast. I was wondering if you could do an episode on a history of menstruation, or monthlies, or period, or that time of the month, whatever you want to call it.

Having a Europe period is such a key part of half the population's life and yet I've never learned anything about its history in school. How did we deal with this over time and what did women do before tampons and a menstrual cup? I can't imagine living without these technologies available. Has it always been considered taboo to bleed or have there been periods of time where a free bleeding situation was more acceptable? I'm sure there is a historian out there who has done some research on this and I hope that that person wants to have a chat with you. Looking forward to what you can come up with.

All right, Lisa, thank you for your question. Let's get Betwixt the Sheets to get you some answers. What are you are calling, man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing it. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, for beautiful time.

Goodness had nothing to do with it, dear is? Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheet. the history of sex scandal in society. With me, Kate Lister. How many people each month are menstruating? I don't have the exact figures, but I'm just going to say a lot. I think we could comfortably say

menstruation and periods are not uncommon experiences, not by a long shot. This is a biological process, and it's been taking place for as long as there have been humans. Of course it has. None of us would be here, it wasn't for menstruation. But this is a biological process that has meant different things to different people. It's a process that has been understood or misunderstood differently by different societies.

And it's a process that has an entire industry built around it. Today, we are finding out about the history of the period. So, and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Alyssa Stein. How are you? I'm so delighted to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. You have got up very early to do this because you are in New York City, I understand. I am and it can be a little bit loud. So forewarning to all your listeners, if you hear a siren passing by, is life in the big city. Is it cold in New York at the moment? I've got some friends over there and they say it's snowing. In parts of New York, yeah, but New York City itself has been the most balmy February. Like walking around in T-shirts and stuff, it's been beautiful. I mean, global warming

and scary. But on the other hand, it's the nicest February I ever remember. So, I mean, there are some upsides, right? Yeah, listen, being able to wear like a light spring jacket and sneakers in February, I will take it. Not only is this exciting because I get to talk to you, which is brilliant, but this is an episode that has actually been requested by one of our listeners. We got an email in going, please, we do something about the history of menstruation. And then we're like, yes, of course we will. Oh, how fabulous. You know, it's an unbelievably complex and fascinating history that doesn't get talked about nearly enough. And yet it connects like everything in society and the whole women's rights movement and women's experiences on this planet. But it's really something that so often is pushed aside

and ignored in favor of talking about other things. Right. How did you come to this subject? Because I suppose the thing that I love about this particular history is it's one of those subjects that it goes right back as long as there have been human beings. This isn't like an isolated era that we're talking about. You can talk about menstruation in various points of history, but this is something that's always been with us through every point in history. What was it that made you go, this is the subject. I want to research this. Years and years ago, my period stopped. And it was terrifying and I didn't know what was wrong with me, and I got really scared. And there was no internet because it was back in the day. And I didn't

have anywhere to go for information. And it turned out that I was fine. But I met with doctors and white coats who sort of treated me with a pad on the knee, lady, you'll be okay if you take this pill. And I just thought to myself, this is not how it should be to be a woman in this world. I shouldn't be afraid that I'm dying because I didn't get my period, nor should I have to go to the doctor to be put on medication I didn't want to take. And I realized that there was no information out there. It was so hard to find just basic facts about how your body works. Why do we think this way? Why do we feel this way? And so I started the project, before I ever even thought about it as being a book, I felt like there needed to be research done for everyone on the planet.

You know, everyone is affected by menstruation. Men, women, everybody had a mom. Absolutely. Like, everybody has a co-worker or a partner or a boss or a friend. It affects everybody on the planet. And yet so little was honestly written about it. So I decided I was going to sort of dive in and research and see what I could do with it. And it took 15 years from when I had the idea to find a publisher who would publish it because

most people said, you know, no. Or even I got messages back saying, ew, disgusting. No. From well-known publishers. Like, ugh, why would I want to do something like that? Like, revulsion. And finally, I found one agent, and we found one publisher who believed in it, and saw the vision that I did of putting together a project that was comfortable and beautiful

to look at, and it was filled with advertising and products and ideas and timelines so that people could get more comfortable talking about menstruation, because if you can't talk about it, then you're never going to break down the walls of silence. So that was my goal. And so what a thrill to still be talking about it like all this time later. And we're still not entirely comfortable with this conversation. Like you only have to walk down the supermarkets and find the euphemistically labeled feminine hygiene aisle and just think, yeah, okay, we're not quite there yet with this. It's still a subject that makes people tense up. What's fascinating about that. And that was one of the things that I noticed the most as I started researching

was the language because it's all been manufactured by product developers and marketers. Feminine hygiene, what does that even mean? I know when you break it down, it's an issue of hygiene and like the implication in that is that you're unhygienic. Is that what's being suggested? Exactly. Like it's dirty that menstruation is dirty. But then like I'm going to do a quick segue into some of the shocking things I discovered. Let's do it. One of the things I found was that I would look at product boxes and nowhere did the word menstruation or period appear anywhere. Really? Yeah, it's all sanitary napkins, feminine hygiene. Like, it's very hard to find the word menstruation on a box. When I was working on the project, it wasn't listed anywhere. And so I was really curious, like, where did this language come from? Like, we all know what, you know, pads with wings are, right? We all know what a tampon is. But where did that come from? And so I realized, as I started to research, that it was advertising, that it was marketers who started these products in the early 1900s and needed to be able to sell something that nobody ever talked about. So they had to create this language that not only made women feel like their secret would be safe,

so they, again, perpetuated this notion that this was something that nobody could know about. It's shameful. It's embarrassing. We'll help you keep it secret. But also this double message of it's dirty and disgusting and embarrassing. And you need us to help you with that. We will help you hide it and keep you shame free. So that was the message that, you know, in every ad that I saw was kind of shocking in some ways. these women who are like sobbing on a bench and the message was her husband left her because of her odor. I've seen those. I'm laughing because it's horrific. It's horrific. And back in like the

30s and 40s, women were sold the notion that they had to douche on a regular basis with bleach and lysol. Just for anyone who's listening who's not quite sure what a douche is, can you just give us a quick? Sure. It's an internal vaginal cleansing. Yeah. So there's like a bulb, when you shoot liquid into yourself. And they've since proven that douching is not helpful and you're getting rid of healthy microbes in your body. It's really bad for you. Right, like don't do it.

But women were douching with Lysol. Like the same stuff that you washed your kitchen floors with because they were told that their insides were unsanitary and dirty and you needed to clean yourself out. But then I started researching more. And I was, you know, every day I was researching and my jaw would drop. I'd be like, oh my gosh, I can't believe this. But I realized that that mindset wasn't from the 1900s in advertising.

in Madison Avenue. It was from the Bible and it was from the Quran, which literally said menstruation is dirty and you can't touch a menstruating woman or you'd catch whatever they have and women would have to be ritually cleansed. And that was pervasive through every major religion. Yes. It's in Judaism as well, isn't it? Yes. So I actually called a rabbi. I called a priest. I was like, am I misunderstanding what I'm reading? I'm like, no. And so even in modern day, you know, there's a reason orthodox men won't shake a woman's hand. It's because you could have a period or won't sit on the same bus seats. I didn't know. And in the modern temple, women sit upstairs and the men sit downstairs. It's all because men can't sit on the same seat, like literally the same chair because they

might catch the dirtiness of a menstruating woman. I realized, okay, so this modern day mindset isn't modern. This is how people have been thinking about menstruation forever. And those messages of shame and embarrassment and being unclean are so part of our collective consciousness at this point. It's hard for a woman to be able to step back and be like, hey, how do I really feel about my period? I mean, it might be uncomfortable, it might be painful. Like there are many things about it that aren't fun, but should it be the most embarrassing, shameful secret that nobody can ever know about? No, but we've been trained to think that way.

And we're talking about a millennia of messaging here, aren't we, from, as you said, religious teachings, but then that leads into cultural teachings, to medical treatments. Like, there's the ancient, menstruation doesn't get referenced that much in ancient texts, does it? There's a real kind of like, we're just not going to talk about that. There's no ancient feminine hygiene section. No, there's no little pamphlet that they gave out in ancient Greece to tell girls about it was going to be like when they started getting a period. But back in the day, like if you go way far back, even before the Bible,

you know, women menstruated and people didn't know what it really meant. So a woman would bleed and wasn't sick and didn't get hurt and it would go away and it was, you know, associated with childbirth. People finally figured it out. And so people used to think it had like this very dark magical power. I mean, childbirth, that's like magical powers. And so in ancient Greece, like Hippocrates would write about all the things that they attributed to menstruating women. A mentoring woman could sink ships. She could spoil cheese. She could kill livestock. How. Harnished silver. I mean, you get grumpy, but that's, I've never felt the need to kill livestock. Wait, you never thank a ship when you had your period? I didn't know I could. If only I had known. Maybe it's not too late. You can go out and try it this weekend. And so this was in the ancient writing. So this is what people really believed. And there were cultures where menstruating women were sent to a literal menstruation hut out in the woods where they had to just be by themselves and weren't allowed back.

I mean, you know, culture after culture after culture, a menstruation. women could destroy the hunt. And then a tribe wouldn't survive because the men couldn't hunt. And so they were shunned. And so it was all associated in this really negative way. And in a patriarchal society, women had the ability to give birth. And so how do you turn that amazing ability into a negative so that you can control? You know, it was an unknown, but it was also like a power play, right? So men were just like, oh, that's disgusting. Like, you're dirty. You don't deserve to be in a church. You don't deserve to live the life that you want to live. We are in control.

And so we're going to make it a negative and a bad thing. And we're going to shame you. And we're going to make people think that this natural, healthy, bodily function that when you get your period every month, you know what means your body's working. Again, a period is many things to many people. But at the end of the day, it means things are working the way they should be. Natural process that's been here since the beginning of time that was turned into something that was part of a power struggle for men to take control of the world and treat women

a second-class citizens. Do we have any kind of a sense? When I read these things like Hippocchese and his, you know, that we can sink ships and kill cattle and various other mad claims, I often read them and I think, but it's so obviously not true. Like, what menstruating woman sinking a ship did he see? Like, where did that come from? Why did nobody say, Hippocrates,

that's, half the population, roughly, is going to menstruate at some point. they're not sinking chips. Like, there's a real hysteria around it. Oh, my gosh. And that's the word I was going to talk about next. That was such a good segue. Nicely done. So hysteria comes from the Greek word hysteria,

which is the word for uterus. So ancient Greeks, as they were like figuring out how the body works, thought that men were ruled by their brain and women were ruled by their uterus. And a uterus actually could dislodge itself from its normal place in the pelvis and wander around the body. And so if a woman had an epileptic seizure or was really moody or, I don't know, killed her husband with an axe, like whatever was an slightly aberrant behavior was blamed on her uterus. And then that term hysteria came into being of like her uterus was out of whack.

Hysteria as a medical diagnosis was in American medical books until the 1950s. As late as that. As late as that. And turn of like the 1900s, 1800s as surgery was becoming more and more popular. A husband could say to a doctor, you know, my wife is kind of off the walls. I think we need to take her uterus out. I have read about this and taking out ovaries as well to cure hysteria and clitorectomies. Yes. So it was all about power. And a woman didn't have any rights. Patriarchal society, women were sold for marriage, you know, whether it was money or it was a dowry,

women couldn't own property. Women didn't have rights. And it's just another way of maintaining power, which is such a huge concept to think about, but that's how powerful menstruation has been. It was because of menstruation in many instances why women were treated so badly. It was a fear of this power. It was a fear of childbirth. And it was a way of keeping women under control by demonizing,

like this absolutely normal bodily function. Do we have any sense of what throughout history, various points, people have thought caused menstruation? I mean, it's long attracted, supernatural, superstitious elements to it. But like in the actual body itself, did they have any idea of what was causing it, why it was happening? Not until people started performing autopsies. Before then, you know, there was definitely a cyclical nature to it where a woman was pregnant and didn't get her period. She wasn't pregnant. She got her period. And so people understood pretty

early on how it was connected, but it wasn't until autopsies were being performed where people could go in and be like, oh, okay, there's an ovary. And oh, this is how it works. So it wasn't until people started actually doing human dissection, which was frowned upon for a very long time as well as some sort of form of sorcery or witchcraft, that people start to understand how the body actually worked in what its purpose was. Wow. Was it linked to the humoral theory that you can have too much blood in your body? Does that play a part in this?

Absolutely. Back in the day, again, those ancient Greeks were just full of all kinds of theories. But they believed that there were four humors in the body and that they needed to be in proper balance. And if anything, New York City traffic. That's New York, baby. That's New York. So if anything was out of whack, it meant that one of the humors had like too much juju.

And so they would do bloodletting because they believed that menstruation was a woman's body's way of getting rid of bad stuff. Okay. So it's like, oh, okay, so women are bleeding. And we believe that they're, you know, imbalances in the body. And it's letting go that way. And so that's why men are the ones who started it. But that's why there was bloodletting to mimic that in men.

Like, why would women have this advantage of getting rid of the bad stuff? So they started bloodletting in men to mimic something that they thought was a natural way of getting rid of something evil or negative. And so that too had this negative connotation that menstrual blood was the body's purging of something that wasn't supposed to be there. Wow. So that's how bloodletting came about. I'll be back with Alyssa after this short break. Hello, I'm James Rogers and over on the history hit warfare podcast. I bring you cutting-edge military histories from around the world.

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Fair podcast, where we're on the front lines of military history. I mean, most bodily functions were horrendously misunderstood until 18th, 19th, etc. And even then, like, we're still really figuring it out now. We like to think of ourselves as massively advanced and that we know exactly what's going on, but we're still finding things out. Absolutely. And when we're looking at menstruation, it's very misunderstood, very stigmatised. You think, Jesus, these poor women.

But also, like, and I wonder it's what. like, what was it like to have a period throughout history? Now, I don't mean that, like, presumably the experience of it must have been pretty similar to what we do now is like, you know, you can be a bit sweaty, a bit swollen, things ache, oh, there's blood, I'll have to do something about it. Blake, how do you deal with a period when you don't have tampons at the local garage to be able to go get? Like, how did people deal with the blood?

How did they do that? Oh my gosh, it's fascinating. In many ways, having your period was incapacitating to women because there weren't products to use, and so you couldn't leave your house. You just freebleed. Yeah, people would free bleed. And women wore many layers and petticoats, and there would be bloodstained. I did lots of research, and there's very little written about this. But as products start to be developed, women would wear rubber bloomers.

Rubber bloomers. Or a rubber menstrual apron. So you'd wear it underneath your dress, and the menstrual blood would just kind of slide off. And in factories in like the 18 and 1900s, the floors would be covered with straw. So that women who were sitting on a bench working and bleeding would bleed onto the straw floor and then it would just be swept away. I mean, the hygiene was definitely an issue. Women used rags and would boil them, like once a month to clean them, wood pulp and grass and different kinds of leaves as a container as a way to capture it. But free bleeding was a thing.

And if you're free bleeding, you can't go out. No. So women couldn't go out and have a job. So the discovery or the invention of tampons and pads was absolutely revolutionary. And as I was researching too, and nobody had really connected the dots. A woman's right to vote, at least in the United States, and the introduction of tampons happened at the same time. Now that's interesting.

Yeah, kind of blew my mind when I saw that. And the first beauty pageant. Oh, hello. Like, okay, so women, we're going to give you some freedom and we're going to let you out of the house. We're going to let you be a more active part of society. but we're also going to create this whole entire system where it's all about beauty and youth and that's what you're valued for.

And daintiness, you see that word coming up again and again and again when you're looking at feminine hygiene, what it means to be. And that word is used a lot on sanitary products from the 20th century. Dainty. You have to have a dainty. How the hell do you have a dainty period? Yeah. I've seen probably every ad ever created at this point because I went down the rabbit hole of research. But the things that people would say were just abysmally horrible and controlling, the douching thing

as well. Like, you'll lose your husband. You'll lose your job. You'll lose your family. And because menstruation was so secretive, because nobody talked about these things, women believed, because of ads and magazines, that douching was a form of contraception. And so people thought you could end a period that way because there were no other options. And so for women who didn't know, you know, or women who were in desperate times, this was a way

of sort of purging your body of something. Encoded language and all these ads. It's heartbreaking to read about what women went through because nobody ever talked about it. And there weren't resources to go to to say, hey, is this okay or should I be doing something about this? Or how does this work? And you can still buy douching contraptions today

that are still marketed as feminine hygiene products. And we probably should say that not only should you not do it, it's quite dangerous to do it. It's been linked to a number of medical conditions. if you strip away the natural lining of the vagina. And especially if you're introducing even what you think of as mild chemicals. And they would do it with lysol disinfectant. Lysol and bleach.

And that's the thing that is also another issue in modern day products that nobody has done research on. A lot of tampons are scented. Are they scented? Oh, yeah. They're scented tampons. I've never noticed that. Yeah.

So they're scented and they're unscented. And you're putting something inside your body. So why should it matter if it's scented or not? But what you are doing is you're introducing chemicals into a very sensitive area that is highly absorbent. You can buy scented pads as well. What is that doing to your body? Nobody knows.

Why do you need a scented pad? Women died from lysol poisoning and burns as well, didn't they? Absolutely. People always ask me in the time I've been talking about menstruation, like have things changed? And yes, things have changed. But on the other hand, things haven't changed at all. So now there's research being done that duching is not.

good for you, but scented products are available on the marketplace. So, you know, I've seen ads from the 1800s using the word shame and smell and fear, and I've seen current ads using the same words. So people might talk about menstruation a little bit more, but people are also, like, slamming it against the wall in a way as well, because that's what sells. Products sell when people are scared and are looking for a solution. And so nobody's letting go of that. It's just not as obvious. Like when you look at these old Lysol Advert, selling them to be used as deishing agents to clean yourself and as an aid to contraception. And they are brutal, as you were saying.

It is women crying because their husbands have left them because of their quote unquote odour. And I should probably six. I did write about this for a book and I actually got in contact with Lysol, who were very, very nice to random people phoning them up to ask about this. And they did say categorically that that was part of their history, but they were quite keen to say, we don't do that, please. That's nothing to do with us. So we'll just say that as well, is that the current Lysol people would really prefer you.

Just don't do that, please. That's lovely of them. It is, isn't it? They just got back and they were just kind of like, yeah, that it did happen. We wish it didn't. Please don't do that. Which I guess, you know, what else can you do? But the language isn't as horrific as being used in those adverts.

But when you look at adverts for quote unquote feminine hygiene products, for products that are there only for intimate, care, for delicate care. Like there are whole lines of cleaning products set up just for the vagina and the vulva. And they're very careful with how they word it. But just the fact that they exist is slightly troubling because it's pushing this weird message, isn't it? It's really baby wipes. And they've repackaged them and repurpose them to clean your vagina, which doesn't need to be cleaned. But again, somebody found a way of repackaging something and selling that message. So yeah, so in some ways language has changed a little bit and people are more open about it. But then there's

a whole entire new line, like, okay, don't douche. But you can get this wipe that you can put in your little packet in your pocketbooks just for those days. And it's the same exact message. It's a very hard topic to really change their trajectory on because as a society, as a globe, a global marketplace, we've been conditioned for such a long time to have this belief system that isn't based on fact, but it's based on, you know, generating. upon generation upon generation of believing this stuff. I remember when I was writing this book, and I had two kids, and we went to Florida, and I got my period the day we went down there. And I said, oh, I can't go swimming. I have my period. And my daughter said, you know that's ridiculous.

And she said, of course you can go swimming when you have your period. Mom, you're writing this book. And I had to stop and think, oh, my gosh, she's right. But I had spent an entire lifetime being told don't go in a pool. So, you know, the message that I got from my mother and my mother, grandmother in the book I got when I was in fifth grade, like you, when you're menstruating, you shouldn't go in water. Like, you shouldn't be near a cold temperature. You wouldn't want to leave all these negative messages. And I realized, oh, my God, she's right. Like, here I am the grown-up and the mom. And my daughter is saying to me, that's just some crazy cultural mindset, but it's not reality. And so we all went to the store together and we bought tampons that didn't

say menstruation on them. And then I went swimming. But that changed how I was in the world. But, you know, I was writing a book about menstruation. Most women. women don't have that experience. Their mother said or their grandmother said or their co-workers like, oh my God, you can't do that. So those things are still so heavily ingrained in us. It's going to be very hard as a society, you know, as women in the world to let those things go. It's also very misunderstood still as an actual physical function.

It doesn't take very long for, you know, someone on social media to pipe up with something stupid. Like, why can't women just hold it in? And then everybody, you know. Oh, my goodness. These people doing that. There's a few examples of it when men say things like they don't understand why women need time off when they have periods or things like that. I mean, you know, hashtag not all men, but it's just the fact that like people can still be floating around thinking that it works like that is quite troubling. And I think even today, boys and girls are still separated when it comes to the period talk.

And that's weird. It's like, again, reinforcing this, it's secret knowledge. we'll all gather around the menstrual hut, all the women together and howl at the moon. Shouldn't they know about this stuff too? Of course they should know. When I wrote Flo and it first came out, I heard from so many men, which surprised me. But they said, thank you so much because I have questions. I have a wife.

I have a mother. I have a co-worker. I never understood what this meant. I never. Somebody told me a very funny story that he thought that sanitary napkins were dinner napkins for a fancy party. And his mom was hosting a dinner party, and he put a sanitary napkin at every place setting. And she, like, came out horrified. And he just, like, but it said napkins on the box.

And so I thought I was helping. People don't know, that people don't talk about it. And the separation as well, and I find, at least in the United States, those kinds of things are talked about even less than when I was growing up. When I was in fifth grade, all the girls had to go to the gym, and their mothers all came. And it was really scary because why is my mother at school? but we saw a film and we got a booklet and we got like free samples, but they don't even do that anymore. No?

Nope. So when my daughter was growing up, she didn't learn about menstruation in school until seventh grade, which is, you know, 12, 13 years old. Many kids were already menstruating by then. And you're not getting any information from a school, from a nurse, from anything. And there's still people who get their periods and don't know what it is. God, that's heartbreaking, isn't it? Yeah.

That's so bizarre. still happening today. Across the world, people in swathes of the world, not having products, girls not being able to go to school because they have periods and don't have supplies to be able to sit in a classroom for a day. These things are happening in real time, in current time. It's heartbreaking and shocking, but also not shocking, because we still live in a patriarchal society. We like to think that we're so advanced scientifically, and we would never do that. Well, no, because in the 19th century, the Lancet Medical Journal, the Lancet, was still having a discussion in the letters about whether or not a menstruating woman could spoil ham by touching it. Oh my gosh. Listen, in the United States,

it was an exceedingly powerful and long-lasting political discussion about women getting the right to vote, and it was because menstruation rendered them incompetent. There was an article, like an editorial in the New York Times about why women shouldn't vote because their periods made them too emotionally distraught and unstable. And so that's why the New York Times said women should not be allowed to vote. Jesus. So menstruation really has affected history on so many levels. But we never talk about it so people don't realize. Like, why didn't women have the right to vote?

You know what? There's a very concrete reason. Because people really thought that menstruating women were irrational, would make mistakes. Like, their brains weren't working properly. So they shouldn't have rights. They can't own property. They shouldn't be able to work outside the home. Like, they're not competent.

They're not equal to a men because their period rendered them that way. That's how pervasive it is, but most people don't realize that. If women really could sink ships and kill cattle and spoil food with their periods, we'd have had the vote a lot quicker, quite frankly. If only we could go back and rewrite history. If only we'd figure it out, all the women are sat here just going, I didn't know I could do that. That's amazing.

Like think about all the power that could have been amassed. The vulva has long been viewed as this incredible, sight of terror, but also power. There's customs all around the world of showing your vulva to ward off evil spirits. And I can't remember where it is in Eastern Europe, but there's an old tradition of women would go outside, lift their skirts up to scare away bears, which I always quite liked. Okay. It's like... All right. Well, listen, if I ever see a muggler on the street, now I know what to try. No, don't do it. Don't do it. Please nobody try and fend off a bear attack by flashing the

bear. You didn't hear it here. Oh dear Where are we now with periods and menstruation Do you think? You'd like to think we've got this figured out, right? You'd like to think that we could look back at all the history And go, we don't do that anymore But that's not true either, is it?

That's not true either. There are menstrual suppression drugs now So you can take a pill and not get a period. Is that healthy? Has it been researched? No. Is that like a contraceptive Or is that just a don't have a period pill?

It's a contraceptive But it's sold as, you know, just like birth control pills too. It's a contraceptive, but it's also not having to get your period in the same way. And so it's sold is like, why have a period if you don't have to? What is that due to body? How is your fertility after being on that drug for a long time? Nobody researched it. Wow.

Birth control pills, when they first came out, they were not researched. And they were created at a much higher dosage than women actually needed for contraception. And women were having strokes and heart attacks. Jesus. Because they were on the pill. And the pill was not allowed to be prescribed to somebody who wasn't married. So it was like a very controlling thing. A woman would have to get her husband's permission to get a prescription for the pill.

The atrocity is done to women when it comes to their bodies, when it comes to procreation, when it comes to menstruation, are appalling. And, you know, today, you know, there's still taxes on tampons in many places. You know, there are movements here to make sure that people who menstruate in prison, in shelters, in school, have access to supplies. Nobody really thought about that. No, no. There's a brilliant charity in the UK called Bloody Good Period who do that work supplying marginalized groups, homeless women, refugees. I've read about them. They're amazing. They do incredible work, don't they? And that's again, something that you just don't think of. It's like, well, yeah, where would refugees access menstrual products? Yeah, of course. Right, or the people in prison are the homeless population. Where do they

get supplies. What do you do when it's done if you don't have access to a bathroom? There are so many marginalized people in the society who need that sort of support. But even the people who have the privilege of buying products are still being sold that message, that this is dirty, that you don't want anybody to know about it, that you make sure that you keep this hidden and will keep you safe. And that message really hasn't changed. So how can mindset change if we're still being sold the message that this is something bad that you don't want anybody to know about. I think in this country, we still have a tax on tampons and it keeps coming around of how ridiculous that is. Basically, it's left as a luxury good to have a tax.

Exactly. If men menstruated, would there be a tax on these products? No. Probably not. But it's like it's an uphill battle. It was a very big story here for a while and like half the states got rid of tampon taxes, but others still have it. And so women who menstruate as a part of a healthy natural function of their bodies have to pay extra. I mean, you have to buy the products and then you have to pay a tax on top of that. It's an expense. Yeah. Like you'd hope that maybe someday governments would subsidize it or like you hit a certain age

and then you just get a supply in the mail. That makes perfect sense to me. Doesn't it? Maybe we should start that. I think so. I mean, I do think that Gen Z are coming through. You can see the conversation shifted already in that generation and they're talking about things differently. And they're saying even words to me that things that I'd never heard of words like

Moon Cup and then I have to sit down with my students and go, a what? And then they explain it to me. I'm like, oh, okay. And you know, the fact that they're kind of prepared to have conversations that, well, don't forget trans men, they need menstrual products as well. And all of these conversations are starting to shift, but damn it, we still have a long way to go, don't we? We do. And hopefully as the people with this very rigid mindset kind of age out of things and people who are changed in their minds, you know, thinking about it's not just people who menstruate. That's even harder. How do you deal with it when you have your period and you're in a men's room? God, yeah, yeah. There are so many different layers to this that it's going to take collective conversation.

And so you talking about this is a way of opening up doors and breaking down stigmas because the more people talk about this as just part of life. I've spoken to advertisers over the years. And it's like, why can't you just do a commercial where you use the word period, you use the menstruation, and you talk about what it is. You don't have to have some lady dancing in a field or like lots of daisies. In white pants. In white. And so this is fascinating to me when I was researching many tampon ads are women in white around water because it's a subliminal message about purity and cleanliness and washing. And so like in the 60s, every skinny woman, every skinny white woman in a little teeny bikini on the beach was just this message of, you need to be. You need to be

purified. You need to be cleansed. And so the more we talk about it and an open fact about what it is, periods can be great for some people. For some people, it's really debilitating. But if you can't openly talk about it, you internalize that shame and the fear and the embarrassment. So having a conversation and just using the words, right? Using the words. Every time that happens, a little bit gets chipped away. At least you have been incredible to talk to. And if people want to learn more about you and your work, where can they find you? My website, www.orgia Stein.com, and you can read all about flow

and have links to things and other things I do in the world. But the menstrual conversation is a very important one. Thank you so much for having me on your show. It was my absolute pleasure. Thank you for joining me today's talk about this. Thank you for listening. And thank you to Lisa for suggesting this topic.

And thanks Alyssa for joining me to get some answers. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and subscribe wherever it is that you get your podcast. And if you have something you would like us to look into, you know what to do. You can email us at betwixt at historyhit.com. Join me again, Betwixt the Sheets, the History of Sex Scandling Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast includes music by Epidemic Sounds.