Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - The Mad Monk & The Witch Hunts

Episode Date: August 18, 2026

Malleus Maleficarum may sound like a spell but it is actually almost the opposite. This book was nicknamed the Hammer of Witches, and today we're finding out if it really started the European witch hunts.Kate is joined by the wonderful Eleanor Janega to talk all things Heinrich Kramer, the monk who wrote the Malleus. Where did his obsession come from? And did his colleagues in the Catholic church support his views?This episode was edited by Natasha Hughes. The producer was Sophie Gee. The senior producer was Freddy Chick.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast.Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards! UK & Ireland listeners please place your vote on the Spotify mobile app here: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJa Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, everybody. This is just a quick word ahead of the episode, because we need to ask you to vote for us once again in the Listeners Choice Awards at this year's British Podcast Awards. And thank you to everyone who's voted so far. You've managed to get us into the top 20. However, we've now had a lot of messages and a lot of emails from people say that they're trying to vote, but they can't. And we didn't understand why. But now we do. They've only gotten flipping changed the way that you can vote. I know. Nobody told us that was going to happen. We didn't sign on for this. Now, only people in the UK and Ireland can vote. So if you're not in the UK and Ireland, you are out. And you can only vote in the Spotify app, insanity.

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But it's all on you now, guys. You're the only ones that can do this. The whole Betwixt the Sheets family is counting on you. Godspeed, soldiers. You can do it. Hello, my lovely Betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. Welcome back to Betwicks the Sheets.

Hello, how fabulous it is to see you once again. You little historical pervert. Yeah, I know. I know what you really are. I know why you're here. It's why I'm here as well. But before we can go any further together, I do have to tell you,

this is an adult podcast book by adults, to other adults, about adulty things in an adulty way, covering an arranged, old, subprits, and you should be an adult too? Do you feel safer? I certainly feel safer. Right, let's crack on. Welcome to History Watch.

It's a gorgeous day, and do we have a treat for you? We have been watching this little nest in a tree for a few days, and we're pretty sure that there are some chicks in there. So let's go and have a look. I'll tell you what, climbing trees is not a strength of mind, but here we are high in the branches. Okay, everybody quiet and let's take a little look. Oh my God, what an earth is that?

Those aren't cute chicks. Oh, no! We've got dismembered penises eating oats. What an earth is going on? What kind of insane world of I ended up in? Well, I don't know what it is, but you're here with me as well. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets,

the history of sex scandal and society with me, Kate Lister. There were over 100,000 witch trials in Europe between 1450 and 1750, and we've spoken about the many times here on Betwixt. And today we're going to be taking a look at a book that is very closely linked with the birth of the witch trials as we know them. What is the hammer of witches? Or to give it its fancy name,

the Malius Malifakarum. What prompted a clergyman to write it? And how and why did he manage to put so much blame onto women? Today I'm joined by the one and only the wonderful Dr. Elin Ejarniger, host of Gone Medieval, General Queen and expert on the witch trial. So if anyone can tell us what the hell is going on in this nest,

it's Eleanor. Let's do this. Well, fancy seeing you back around these parts gorgeous. How are you doing? I'm very good. Thank you very much. I live in the walls now. I live in the cellar. We just take you out from time to time. That's right. That's right. That's what they do with all history hit presenters. They just keep us in a cupboard, bring us out on rotation. It's terrible, really. We should unionize. We should. We should. There's power in a union, Kate. So. But we're not here to talk about unions. We'll do that on our own time. We're here to talk about one of your favorite things to talk. about, which is the Malias Malifakara. Malius Malifakara mentioned my eyes begin to say.

Listen, my eyes begin to glow red. I just show up. It's like if you say it three times into a mirror, I show up behind you and I explain how it's actually more complex than that. It's such a catchy title. It's fun to say Malis Malfikara, Malifakas Mavikov and then you can like feel like very like cool and my Latin is so good about everything. It's some of the only Latin I know quite frankly. What does it mean by the way, Maliis Malfikara? It means the half. hammer of witches. So, you know, the idea is that with this tool, you can hammer upon witches. Yes. So it's like this machine kills witches, essentially. Is that the Malius bit? Yeah, the Malias is the hammer. The Malifikarum is of witches. Ah, so Arum, you know, that's the genitive. Duh. We all know. We all know our Latin.

Yeah, because I know that. Yeah. I know Latin. Yeah. Absolutely. So hammer of the witches. And this is a really interesting text in the history of witchcraft because there's a great deal that has been made of it. And if anybody has read it and you can read the whole thing online for free if you want to. And it is not time badly spent because it is a mad piece of work. Listen. It is absolutely like out there lunacy levels. It is so important to read because it is absolutely bonkers. It's really funny as a result of that. But it's also this really interesting example of someone who is not particularly clever attempting to use medieval grammatical and rhetorical ways of arguing to advance his idea. So if you're a real one like me, I've gone through it and

you know, I try to like look up when he cites, for example, like St. Augustine and he'll be like, oh, this is in this part of Day, Kivitatum Day. And I'm like, no, it's not. Like, he's just lying. half the time. Like, my man is out here lying, but it's like he'll say, oh, yeah, like, Thomas Aquinas backs me up about this. And I'm like, girl, where? Like, let's be so for real. Imagine that. A man using shonky science to back up a really crap argument and trying to sound smarter than the audience.

Like, maybe his citations are just off. But, like, I'm just telling you, like, people with too much time on their hands are out ear checking him. And listen, I know, I'm not finding it compelling, babe. Who is him, by the way? Who's the hymn that we're talking about? Who's the hymn with the bad Latin? Okay, this is a man known as Heinrich Kramer. And Heinrich Kramer is a Dominican inquisitor.

So he's also known as Heinrichus inquisitorious, which just means like... What is an inquisitor? Is that like the Spanish Inquisition? What is that? Yes, so the guys involved in the Spanish Inquisition are these dudes. Okay, so...

Oh, he really is? Well, it's not him, but like, yeah. Because the Spanish Inquisition is kicking off at the same time. Ferdinand and Isabella see things like this and they're like, we love that. Can we have our own, right? But an inquisitor is a various particular office and inquisitors are drawn from the ranks of the mendicant orders. So in particular, the Franciscans and the Dominicans. Heinrich Kramer, he's a Dominican.

And what do they do? What's an inquisit? They just inquisit? They do inquisit. So the idea when we first come up with inquisitors is the idea of an inquisitor is supposed to be that they're supposed to stop violence happening to people who are accused of heresy in particular. Because before if a group of people decide that an individual is a heretic, we do have instances where a whole town will just like burn someone to death. And the church is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, who is this, right? So an inquisitor is usually a Franciscan or Dominican because they are members of this particular type of monastic order,

which was made in order to kind of like make the church stop being so profligate, essentially. So they are born out of these reform movements, like these movements to like get the church on the right track. That's point A. And point B, they are monks who work with the community. So they're like the ones you'd call if people are losing their shit a bit and they'd kind of come down and go, look, everybody just needs to take a big deep breath. Calm down. Yeah. Go touch some grass and we will reconvene. Yep. And they would be like, listen, you are not equipped to decide whether or not this thing that is happening is heresy. We are because we are church members and we are very calm. about all of these things.

So... They're like a heresy ombudsman. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Now, in the kind of high medieval period where we sort of exist, when we invent these guys, they are kind of like a damper switch. You know, they're notable exceptions. So, for example, the Alba Genzian crusade, like, it gets a little bit out of hand there. To be fair, those people were heretics.

Just because I agree with them. Doesn't mean that they aren't heretics, but they absolutely were. by the late medieval period, which is when Heinrich Kramer is working, they are more particularly powerful. The church as an instrument has a little bit more power in the real world at this point in time. Having said that, like, you have to take that with a grain of salt. So for example, the Spanish Inquisition, that's on Ferdinand and Isabella. They were like, can we get some guys to torture Jewish people? We'd like some, right? And so that's a little bit more from a royal point of view if you look into it. So Heinrich Kramer, more particularly, he is working in the German lands

at the time. So he's a holy Roman imperial guy, right? What do they, do they just like go from town to town and go, like, is anyone, there any heresy around here you want to talk about? Yeah, but it's also kind of like a contested beef. So like one of the first ways that he enters the historical record, he enters the historical record as a result of a papal bull that we have, which is called Sumis desideriantis effectibus. That's my favorite one. Yeah, it's a really good one. And it comes out because he and he's got like a guy over him who's called Hans Springer.

They are both in this. And the Pope is saying these guys are allowed to inquisitor around in the German lands. Here is like the Pope being like, yo, you got to let these guys in. And that is Springer an inquisitor as well? He is. And he's another Dominican one. And so this is like a really important. point because it used to be that when we talked about the Malias, people would say, oh, it's written by Springer and Kramer.

Right. No. No. No. No. Just Kramer. This is like Kramer's whole deal. He's the one who wrote this. But how does Springer get dragged into this? Great question. Because since both of them are named in Simis desideriantis Effectibus, which is like basically their license to go around inquisitoring because the Franciscans, more particularly we're trying to inquisitor in this area. There's beef with the Dominicans. They don't want to let the Dominicans in. They're like, yo, you're stepping on our toes. We're the church cops over here. We don't want the Dominicans in. And the Pope has to step in and say, no, you have to let these guys in. Right. Right. What happens is there's a term that we call

traveling partners when you're talking about manuscripts or early printing. It sounds like slang for a gay man from the 1940s. It's like, oh. No, it's just his traveling companion. Yeah, I just hired him to lift my luggage, et cetera. But that's not what this is. Let's get back on track. Basically, what happens with this is that when you are writing out a manuscript or when you are publishing early things, sometimes one document will get put in with the other one really commonly. Oh, I've seen that. Like in really old books suddenly, like the Beowulf manuscript, it's like four stories all in altogether. Yeah, like or how the Trotula, the medical manuscript started off just being an OBGYN thing.

And then later on, there's like also makeup in there. That's as a result of traveling. The pearl poet as well. The pearl. Yes. Got like lots of different stories. Okay, right. Exactly. That's quite common to just go lots of stories in one book, but they're not necessarily

related. Sumas desideriatis effectibus. She's very good at that. It comes out and like the Pope writes this and then like a decade or so later we get the Malius Malifakarum and they travel together. So people start slapping Sumas does dearyontis effectibus at the beginning of a manuscript and then they put in the hammer of witches. So the two.

aren't related. They aren't. So we've basically got a letter from the Pope going, look, let these guys in to do some inquisiting. And then we've got this insane fever dream written by Kramer. Oh, you'd be so mad. Oh my God. Like poor Springer, it's like this has nothing to do with him. He is collateral damage. This is a drive bite, right? You would be so pissed off. And he would particularly be pissed off because I'm going to be so for real with you. Like this gets written out in 1485 and it does get kind of picked up and. printed when the printing press comes out. So it gets something like 36 editions between 1486 and 1669, nice, where it like comes out over and over again. But fundamentally, this bonkers scree, like this ridiculous book about how to find which is why witches exist, why which is a real, is entirely written because everyone in the late 15th century is like, wow, Kramer, you seem like an absolute psychosexual nut shop. Like you are an obvious weirdo. What is your problem?

It's an apologia. Wow. It's not written by someone who is like considered the foremost top of his game. We really like this guy. It's written by someone who has lost multiple attempts to accuse people of witchcraft. This is like a manifesto. Mm-hmm. And wait a minute, just to backtrack slightly, that means.

as well that the Malas Malavakarum never had papal approval. No. I've heard that, like, that's quite a common thing that I've heard people say is that it was approved by the Pope. You can't be approved by the Pope if the approval came out a couple decades before you wrote the damn thing, right? Like that's like, unfortunately, linear time does exist, right? Wow, okay.

And so it's fake. It's fake. Never approved by the Pope. It was never approved by the Pope. My man is off-peased. Okay. Over here. And that takes a lot for you to say that because I know that you don't like popes very

much. I don't. No. But this one is in the clear. But this one is in the clear. It's not his fault. Like that Kramer did all this. So like, describe to me who he is.

And before we get into the, what exactly the malice, what exactly it is and what exactly it says. So he was an inquisitor. He was walking around checking people were doing heresy or not doing heresy. How do we, like, what does he do that people go, oh my God, you're such a creep. Get out of here. Okay. So he shows up in a town to do some inquiries. Quisitoring. And he's not popular with the locals. And there is... He wouldn't be, would you? Like,

if you're just turning up, hello, I'm here to check on anyone doing some heresy. Yeah, it's like anybody, like, have we got any witches? And in the first place, medieval people are like... It's like, Offsted turning up when you're teaching. It's just, just pretend I'm not here. And fundamentally, like, he's like, I'm out here checking for witches. And in the medieval period, there is a concept. Like, they're like, maybe a witch could exist. But for the most part, if we're looking at medieval period and the attitude to witches, if you look at things like, you know, your friend and mine, Bouchard of Verms, he writes in his particular guidebook for people who are doing confessions, he says, do you believe that you are a witch? And it's like, and what he says

is like, because you're not. And you have to do penance if you think you're a witch, because witches aren't real, girl, you cannot possibly be going out at night, like, going to the sabat. Like, in a particular way, they're like, that's not really. real and it's actually heresy for you to think it's real you can't possibly be doing it. Fast forward 700 years and Heinrich Kramer's like, no, that's real. That's real. They'd be doing it. Belief in witches, like, it's very easy to think that they just turned up with the witch trials,

but they go way back. I mean, the Romans executed people for witchcraft, lots and lots of them. But by the time you're in the medieval period, it's more like the view witchcraft is almost like a hobby. It's like just try not to. Yeah. Like try not to be a witch, please. that would be great. And if you get caught, the punishment is like, like, sit in the corner for five minutes.

It's not like burn everybody. Completely. And it's like for them, they don't think that like being a witch in that Roman way is real. And it's one of the things that they do to differentiate themselves from pagans before. They're like, you can't possibly. Like God wouldn't allow that to happen. Yeah. There isn't any witches. Yeah. Like, how are you going to get the power in order to do this? Which is a big thing the Malius covers. It's like there's no way that you're going to get the power in order to do this. So that's, that's a way that you're going to get the power in order to do this. So that's, kind of weird of you to think that, like, God wouldn't allow this to happen. So one of the big things about the medieval period is they're like, absolutely not. Now, magic might exist. There are ways to kind of use what they consider to be natural magic in order to bend things to your will. And curses. They believe in curses.

And they do believe in curses and they do believe in love spells. But they don't believe in the figure of the witch in the same way. Yeah. Because for them, it's just like, a girl, be for real. Yeah. I mean, you can find references to witches, but it's not, it's not going to result in mass executions. of people. Very occasionally, like, a person is executed, but it's just like, it's just not a medieval thing. They're not into it. But Hiner Kramer is into it. I wonder why. I wonder like what,

I mean, we'll never know this because we can't sit down, can we and just go, what the fuck? Yeah, like, how is it? How is it? How is it? Where is this comfort? Do you think he's like maybe like trying to make a name for himself? I think that there is, you know, a part of that. It is certainly true that in Sumas des Dariantus Effectuus, they do say, well, you're allowed to kind of look for witches up here. So it seems like. Something shifting. Yeah, something is shifting. And I mean, I think that it's kind of part of this classic medieval to early modern turn. We see a huge crackdown on women and their freedoms at this point in time,

possibly because women have got too uppity. You know, women are commanding more power and they are getting more able to participate in society more fully. And so it can be, I think, initially tagged onto that. But then when we have this explosion of the which panics in the early modern period, That has a lot to do with what we call the process of confessionalization. So when we invent Protestants. In the papal bull thing, it's interesting that witchcraft would even be brought into that when they're looking for heresy because that seems like a new turn.

Because prior to that, it's just like if you're a witch, but it's not heresy. It's like just try not to do that, please. Yeah. And this is the thing is that it is one of the issues where like even, you know, when Bouchard Avurams writes about it, he's like, girl, it's not right. You aren't a witch. it's kind of heretical that you think you might be. It's like shotlifting.

It's like, try your best not to. That was bad. Don't do that. Don't. Don't knock it off, you know, kind of a thing. And by this point in time, you know, also to be fair, you know, they're going through a lot in the 15th century. There's a lot of wars. The plague is now endemic.

You have, you know, the bubonic plague coming up all the time. You know, there is a kind of a feeling of scarcity around in the area. And, you know, people are a little freaked out. People are a little freaked out. Exactly. And so we see in particular when Heinrich Kramer comes to town, he shows up and he's like... The town of Innsbruck. Yeah. And he shows up and he focuses in on a particular patrician woman who shout out Helena Schuberin. Okay. Like she's... She is a real cool chick and she's this very wealthy patrician, right? So, you know, one of these women who's like to up herself. What's a patrician? A patrician is someone who is a really high.

up in the urban circles. Okay, so like a socialite. Yeah, exactly. So she's like, she's a rich, wealthy woman. She's a businesswoman. She commands a lot of respect. She has political connections. Okay.

Okay. girls leave. Wow. Like they all hate him, right? Because they just think he sucks and he's obviously a weirdo. Yeah, he's just insane. This maniacs turned up and started talking about witches. Yep.

And so he's like, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to put this woman on trial for witchcraft. Of course, that makes perfect sense. Yeah. So he puts her on trial for witchcraft and he's like banging on in particular what we'll get into about like what he believes her sexual exploits to be. Yeah, he really goes to it, doesn't it? Oh, he goes in because like the best thing about the hammer of

is it's all about like how he thinks that like shagging is in a very important part of being a witch. So he's like, I think she's a big slut. And don't they have like an argument about because it's so maybe I've imagined it. But they have an argument like the court is actually saying like you this isn't relevant. This isn't. Yeah, 100% and like 100. It feels quite modern that they're doing that. Like you could this isn't like the fact.

This has nothing to do with anything. There's nothing to do with anything. And that's basically what it ends up being like after the whole trial. She's let off completely. the court says you have you have said much that you were unable to prove. The court is like, what is this bro? Like, get the hell out of here. And he's basically laughed out of town.

Because he's got this woman who seems to have been very popular, very powerful, decided she's a witch. And then the only evidence that he can possibly produce is her sex life, which he's not allowed to talk about and has nothing to do with anything anyway. And like, how would he even know about it? 100%. And so it's just like, everyone is like, wow, it seems like you're sexually obsessed with Helena. Yes. It just seems like, bro, you can't stop thinking about her in sexual situations. That's what it seems like to us.

And he basically has to leave Innsbruck. There are letters written to him, aren't there, by like the mayor of the town or something. And like, they're getting increasingly more just like, dude, you need to go now. But they start off. It's almost like that office talk where you're like, how do I tell someone to fuck off in corporate? And it's like they're trying to like, just very gently go, like, oh, I noticed that you're still here. and then it progresses to just, you have been told. And like 100% it's like the meme.

It's like Heinrich Kramer makes worst court case ever asked to leave Innsbruck. Like that's what happens, right? And so he has eventually shoveled off. For some reason, he makes it checks problem. I don't know what we did. He went to. But he gets shuffled off to Moravia. Oh, right.

Okay. And not that Moravia isn't important. Shout out Moravia. Burn out. Burn out. I consider that he is going to cause less of a ruckus. So when he is moved off, he's like, oh, I'm going to prove you all wrong. Witches are real.

I'll tell you what sexuality has to do with the sexuality is the, oh, I'll tell you why all witches are sluts. And that's what the Malius is. And it's just the, it's like an insane fever dream. It's the ravings of like the most rejected man on the planet. 100%. 100%. And when it gets written as a result of the fact,

that that's clearly what this is. Everyone is like, wow, you seem to have a lot of personal problems. It wasn't a bestseller, wasn't it? No, it wasn't, not in the medieval period. They're like, what the fuck is that? This is quite right as well. How are you meant to deal with this? Because it is, if you read it, it is bonkers. It is, it is. Even by the standards at the time, even taking into account different belief factors, even taking into account, even taking into account, like cultural differences, it's still insane. Yeah. And they recognize that at the time.

They were like, these are the ravings of a madman. Yeah. Who clearly has some sexual hangups, right? I mean, it's like, tell us some of the stuff that's in it. Okay, so you have to understand that from Heinrich's standpoint, the issue is like, first, the whole beginning of it is a little bit boring, it's a little bit philosophical, but first he argues the fact that witches are real. Yeah.

And you have to understand that he's needing to make this argument because a lot of people don't think which is a real, right? He's like, and he tries to make this whole big argument that you have to believe that witches are real if you are a Christian. And the two things are necessary and you have to believe both according to him. Yeah, he doesn't go into this being like, obviously you all know about witches. He spends a good chunk of it trying to convince you that they're real. Yeah. And he's like, it's a Christian proposition to imagine that they are real. Because his idea and argument is that they are real because what God has done is he's a allowed witches to be real in order to essentially test faith.

So it's sort of like, it's like one of these things where like, oh yeah, God is letting it happen just to like trap a bunch of women because like he's testing your ability to resist. Yeah. Resist being a witch. And also he's doing it because it's like, oh, if you're a good person and you're persecuted by witches, he thinks it's like a whole sort of like Job thing. Right. So it's like it's one of these things where he tries to argue that it's kind of free will thing. Yep, okay. And so the end, but this is a very important point because you wouldn't have to have this argument if everyone was like, yeah, witches are definitely real dog. Yeah. Like you have to, you have to do this if people don't think they necessarily are.

So there's a big chunk of that. I'll be back with Eleanor and the witches after this short break. He does acknowledge that men can be witches too. He does say that. Yeah, and he does say that they are, but there's a whole. Let me say that like that's some kind of like. win for equality. I know, right.

I know. But he's got a whole chunk of it, which is like right up at the beginning where he's like, well, why is it that women, chiefly, women chiefly, become witches.

And the argument is sexual. Because as far as he's concerned, the way that one becomes a witch is you shag the devil. Obviously. Obviously. Yeah, you can't apply for this on a school career today.

No, it's like one of these things where you have to have sex with the devil. Yeah. And then that is what gets you into the club. Okay. Right. And so obviously women, chiefly, fall to the superstition of wishes because they love sex, right?

Yeah. He flat out says it's because they are the weaker sex and more liable to give into temptations. Yeah, exactly. And so the first thing is because women are so sexy and love sex and can't be stopped from having sex, they would shag the devil if they had to, fine. So that's number one. Number two is women be gossiping.

Oh, I didn't know that. But, right, okay. What's gossiping got to do with it? Well, because you're just like, girl, can I tell you something? Shag the devil last night. I'm a witch now. I would tell everyone. I'm a witch now.

And then they're like, oh, girl, can I shag the devil? And they're like, girl, yeah, we could all shag the devil and be witches. And it's going to get you the ability to blight crops or like whatever. But he also said that one of the big reasons women become witches is because you know, we're constantly mad about our thwarted love affairs, and so we want the magical ability to curse dicks. See, that's a leap, isn't it? You can almost follow the logic until we get to...

Right, okay, explain this to me. As you and I both know, we're constantly bitter about our exes. Yes. And the thing that we would like to do about our exes is obviously curse their boners. Yes. Yeah? Yes. You're with me so far.

So one of the chief forms of magic that witches do, according to him, there's like a lot of penis magic. Like there's just so much penis magic. Which is great. Yeah. And so one of the first ones is you can just do good old fashioned anti-boner magic. Right. Okay. Homie just can't get it up now.

Okay. RIP to your boner. Yeah. The other one that you can do, though, is you can magic dudes dicks so that they are no longer there. All right. Right. Obviously. Obviously.

And then you're like, well, what are you going to do with all the dicks that aren't there? Where are you going to put them? Obviously, you're going to put them in a nest kate. Of course. You're going to put them into the nest kate and you're going to feed them oats. Like they're little birds. Because they're little birds. Because they're little birds.

He's not a well man. It's just drained. And he's like, and I went into the tree and I saw the nests of penises and the penises and the penises looked at me. Like that's what that's what's up, right? And now the obvious argument to this would be like, bro, no one's dick is getting magiced off. And he goes, ha ha. I see that you have made this argument. However, the thing that happens, he tells a story about a guy who thinks his dick is magiced off, right?

And so he goes to his priest is like, father, father, help, a witch stole my penis. And the priest is like, well, may I see it? And the guy drops trow. And the priest is like, sir, clearly you have a penis. I'm looking directly at your penis. And so even though a priest is like, dog that did not happen, Heinrich Kramer goes, Ha ha. Wait a minute.

It's because the man has a glamour on him. So he thinks his penis isn't there. So to him, he thinks he's looking like a Ken doll. But everyone else. But so it's actually witchcraft. Like no, no, no. And it's like, bro, everyone can see the penis. Do you know that's an actual medical phenomenon, a proper recognized medical condition.

It's called K-O-R-R-R-R-R. which is a Malaysian term and it means turtle, right? Yeah. And it's where, and it normally appears as mass hysteria, is where men suddenly panic that their penis has been spirited away or is going to fall off or is. And you can find it all over the place. Like it was most recent in, there's an outbreak of it in Nigeria in 2023 when men thought that a guy was going around shaking their hands and making their penises disappear.

And it happened again in Malaysia, I think it's 1967, when rumour got out that infected pork meat, If you ate it, your penis would vanish. And the hospitals were flooded with men holding their penises down, going, please don't let it disappear. And the government had to make announcements. We'll see. So it's the whole thing, right? And that's what this is.

And that's what this is. And it's like writing it down. And to a certain extent, encouraging it. Like encouraging this particular belief, right? So there's this whole line in penis magic. There's also a lot of discussing the fact that witches are shagging the devil. right? And there are just like, there are chapters devoted to, well, where does the devil get the semen from? I've read those chapters. He's given a lot of thought to this. Because obviously the devil can't have semen, right?

Yeah. Because the devil, there's also a lot of argument about what the devil can and cannot do, how it is the devil gets the power to interact with witches. And well, obviously, if the devil has sex with the witch, he's going to have to just like jizz right up in there. Yeah, obviously. Right. But the devil can't possibly have semen because the devil can't create anything. Okay. Okay. So the devil is not able to ever create anything out of whole cloth, something that already exists. He can pervert, but he can't make things, right? Like that is the theological idea here. So, so where does the semen come from? I'll tell you. So the semen comes from succubuses. So devils can be a succubus or even an incubus. They exist as well. And they can kind of shape shift between the two. And so what a succubus does is a succubus. goes and she shags a dude while he is asleep and she steals his precious seaman. Oh, yeah, because that's what we all want. She then gives the semen to the devil and then the devil uses that semen as his own. And so there's a lot of also discussing the fact that the semen is cold. I've heard that one.

Yeah, so they have to talk about how the semen is cold. And then there's this, but there's this knock on effect then, right? Because they're like, well, what happens? what happens then if a witch gets knocked up by the seaman that was stolen from this man is he the actual father is he liable like to be the father's face and they're like no no no no because the seaman got stolen and he didn't even know and there's like a whole bit about how like a witch could be having sex with the devil right now and you wouldn't know because they're invisible so any the devil's invisible so anytime a witch is just standing there she might be having sex

right now right in front of you and you wouldn't know. And so like say you were a woman who is like having an illicit affair and you fall pregnant with a guy, he in theory could be like, uh, I think maybe, maybe mudge's was stolen. Was stolen. I don't know what she's talking about. But I mean, again, I can't stress this enough at the time. Everyone is like, wow, Heinrich, it seems like you're making a weird case. Well, yeah, because it is like the level of detail that he's gone into.

And this is clearly all projection. He's fallen into the trap of because I find something erotic, therefore it must be erotic. Because I hate something, therefore it must be hateful. And this is just a massive projection, but with a lot of weird theology. This is basically just a psychotic episode written down. Oh, completely. And the thing about it is, you know, it's kind of pseudo-intellectual, as I say. You know, if you go through it, his citations do not always lead back.

to where he claims they lead. They are also, you know, kind of stilted. He will, you know, for example, St. Augustine does sort of say that magic might exist or sorcerers might exist, particularly because he's working in the late antique period. He's very little to say about penises and trees. Yeah, very little, which is odd, because he's got a lot to say about penises more generally.

Like, I mean, St. Augustine is constantly writing about penises. So, you know, he doesn't find that particularly compelling. He does think that magic might exist and people might use it from a level and reasons, but he's kind of writing more in this late antique style where he's sort of like talking about hangovers from the pagan era, such as it is. You know, he's living in Egypt. It's very, it is what it is. So we're taking these things that are kind of happening a thousand years or a thousand years earlier, give or take, you know, and trying to strap it on there. Hey. So, you know, it's kind of like these constant twists and turns in order to get back.

to this argument that he's making over and over again. And fundamentally, medieval people are like, I beg your very finest apartment. Exactly. And it's just sort of like, okay, well, good job. Heinerk, you wrote a book. If you met him in the pub and he was talking like that, you would be out.

Yeah, you'd just be like. That's why they had to send him to Moravia. They're like, send him around a bunch of Czech speakers. Then no one will know what he's talking about. It won't be so embarrassing. So he publishes this book in all of its. demented glory. 1485 was he?

Yeah, 1486. 1486. What happens to him after that? Do we know? I mean, he continues his career out in Moravia. He doesn't really do much more witch trialing. You know, he does like some... Oh, this is like a one and done.

This is like... Yeah, it's like he... Yeah, and it's like he doesn't really manage to prosecute any... Never prosecutes a witch with this. Yeah, like not particularly successfully, no. And so he just dies and like that's a... fine. But. And it should have just been a mad book that maybe like people would turn to once in a while to go, it's just so funny, this crazy shit. But unfortunately, that's not what happens.

Unfortunately, that's not what happens because unfortunately, we decide we're going to do confessionalization. Unfortunately, we invent Protestants. Yeah. Right. And the way to think about this era and the process of confessionization is it's essentially like a spiritual arms race. Explain to the lovely listeners what do you mean by spiritual arms race. So basically Protestants are like, Catholics are not very holy. We're a holy ones and that's why we're, that's why we have to be Protestants. And Catholics are like, no, you shut up.

No, we're the holy one. And actually, you're not very holy and I don't like it. And it's in this context that like everything really blows up. You've got the Reformation and you've got the Counter-Reformation at the same type. So Reformation is when Protestants are doing it. Counter-Reformation is when Catholics are doing it. And they both get into essentially this argument about who can be the most holy. And as a part of that, they are also saying who can be the most austere.

Right? So you have a big crackdown on like having the fun churches that have like cool murals, having like nice and cool religious statues in your church. You have a crackdown on women. Huh? So like women shouldn't be around. in society because what if they were sexy? Certainly both you and I see that in terms of whether sex work is legal, there's huge crackdown on legal sex work. You know, like we get rid of,

for example, like municipal brothels. So there's like this big closing in of society. There is an increased and quite severe reaction to sexuality, to decoration, to anything that is considered frivolous. And also as a part of this, we have the witch panics. That just get, ignited in amongst all of this, like a lot of fear, because we need to remember what they weren't burning each other and executing each other at this point. There is more burning of witches. Ordinarily, most places witches are hung. And it's because in the German lands they are treating witches as heretics. Is this a link again?

And you burn heretics because you don't want anyone to make relics, which is like taking their body parts after the fact and turning them into saints. So, for example, in England during the witch panics, you're going to hang the witches in the German lands. It's more likely that you will burn them. But on the whole, more people are hung than are burnt. But in the German lands, they are going to burn you. But it's because they're using things like this.

So it's an interesting one because the Malias is fairly influential in some circles. So, for example, we know one of our nuttier kings here in England, James I first, is fairly influenced by it. And he writes his own, frankly, bonkers text the demonarium, which I do recommend people read. Yeah. Because it is similarly outrageous.

But not quite as demented. I love that James is really trying to give it like a scientific spin. But it is, yeah, it's mad. Yeah, it's crazy. It's just like he a lot more believes in actual demons. Yeah. Which is what's fun about the demonarium.

But he also believes that like witches witches are trying to sink his boat or something. is like, babe, you're not that special. No, they're not. But he thought he was. Yeah, he really believed that to be so, right? And so you do see at the very high levels of society, super high echelons, that is true.

Certainly it's influential in the German lands because Heinrich Kramer was German, right? So we do see it kind of traveling around more often. And two things are true. So it's interesting because Catholics who were doing it at the time will sort of be like, oh yeah, well, we have this good old-fashioned Catholic guy. Remember when people took witchcraft seriously And it's like, no one took this seriously, dog.

And the Protestants similarly look at it and they go, aha, see, like, we can have that because it's before the process of confessionization. It came out before we invented Protestants. And if the Catholics had taken this guy seriously, we wouldn't be in this problem to begin with. And so they have a look at it. But also, I'm going to be so for real with you, like Matthew Hopkins, the Witchfinder General up here in England. He didn't read this. No, I think that the far more influential text around these parts, the British Isles would have been King James's work.

Because a big part of that is people wanted to impress the king. I've read your book. Look, I found witches too. Yeah, and they're like, oh yeah, they've got, there's much more like interest in, for example, like, having a year like a demon familiar. And things like that. There is still a sexual slant to it. Yeah, witch's marks. And the witch's marks have a very gly sexual slant as well. Yeah, definitely. But the hammer of witches is just about, it's almost exclusively about sex. Yeah, it is.

But it's interesting that you say that because another sort of narrative that you see emerging around this is that the Malleus Malifakarum kicked off the witch hunts. It was published and then everyone lost the goddamn mind. And that isn't true. No. Like nothing could be further from the truth. I mean, the witch panics in particular, they don't really kick off for like a good 80, 90 years. And probably would have happened even if that text hadn't existed. Oh, completely.

Completely. Like, this is sort of like a fan favorite. I mean, you have to be like in the know with this. And fundamentally, people read this when it comes out in the medieval period and they're like, this is not right. Like you, there seems like there's something wrong here. And they just don't believe it. They just don't believe it. And it kind of comes back out of the woodwork as a result of the witch panics.

Yeah, they're already doing it. Yeah, they're already doing it. And they're looking for something to justify it. And so they go get the malice. And there were many. witch hunting guides, not just King James and the Malias. Matthew Hopkins knocked one out. One of his mate did the same thing.

And it's basically repeating the same stuff over and over again. But it's not like the Malius was the absolute headline act of all this. No, absolutely. And you can definitely see, for example, even though this is like a nominally Catholic text or something like that, you know, we've talked about this before. When we have the witch panics, they're more likely to get a witch panic in. places where Catholics and Protestants are living next to each other, where there's kind of like an uneasy process of confessionalization, because like three people are killed in Ireland. Because they're like, yeah, we're Catholic. And so like, you could show them the malice all you

wanted during the witch panics in Ireland. And they're like, okay, okay. I don't know, I don't know who that's for, you know, but in the German lands where you've got a lot of Catholics and Protestants living cheek by jowl to each other. Because some states stay as Catholics. Some states become a Protestant. And it's like sort of down to what your principle is, that they get to sort of choose what the flavor is. So there's a lot more worry about witchcraft there because there's a lot more worry about someone being a Protestant or Catholic. And we do tend to see people who, for example, seem to be acting a little too Catholic in Protestant areas accused of witchcraft and vice versa. So that's kind of the problem there. So, you know, we just do not see that at the time, even amidst a lot of the witch panics, that the malles does anything.

And that's an important point. Yeah, it is. Because I think that there is this tendency when we talk about history or when we talk about indeed like a gender history or anything like that. People look at history as though it's like one process of just things getting better and people getting more right. And what we see with the witch panics and belief in witchcraft is actually the opposite. So it's something that people don't like actually digging into because they want to believe that in the early modern period, they're like, oh, it's the Renaissance. Yeah, Shakespeare's here. And so actually, everything just got more scientific.

Yeah. Right. Things get more scientific when we get to the Renaissance. You see the opposite happening. Yeah. You know, medieval people are like, this is stupid and there's no way that this exists. Whereas early modern people are like absolutely real, which came from a dick. Right.

And it goes against this easy story that we like to tell about the Renaissance, about even the Enlightenment. And indeed, like, the Enlightenment does kind of put paid to a lot of these things, but it sticks around. Like, I mean, certainly the Salem Witch trials are happening at the same time as the Enlightenment. So, you know, it's not one of those things where you can't just say, well, we invented science so nobody believes in witchcraft anymore. Exact opposite. We get way more into witchcraft as a society when we're inventing science. So, you know, it's not an easy narrative. It's not easy to teach in schools.

I think that's the thing about the Malias, though, is it become, I mean, first of all, it's fun to read. It's really fun. And as a historical document, it's back crap crazy. And it's deeply misogynistic. And it's completely out there. But it does provide a very easy narrative for going, that was published, that hates women. That's where the witch trials happened. And it's just not that neat.

Because one of the things that I've learned about the witch trials is it resists easy definition. And every time you think you've got a handle on what was happening, there's always a counterpoint. Always. There's always Estonia. There's always Iceland. There's always these places where more men or kill. You know, there are always all these moving parts. You think it's about older women and then you realize, well, actually, they're chucking kids on the bonfire in Germany.

Oh, completely. Oh, God. In Sweden, they just kill whole towns. It's just like everyone, all of them. Oh, wow. They didn't mess around, did they? Mm-mm. So, you know, it is one of those things where people want it to be.

Easy. And I think also, to a certain extent, people like the story of, like, the pure misogyny. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, don't get me wrong, this is an entirely misogynist text. It is absolutely disgusting. It's irredeemable. Yeah, like, there's, the only thing that's good about it is it's.

Nobody's doing a revision of this text. No, like, it's just bad. But I think that it makes it easier to talk about the witch panics. If you're like, yeah, it just had to do with older women. And if you look at the back. that will reconfirm those priors, right? And that isn't what we actually see about the witch panics more generally. And it's also not what we see about the circulation of the malice and how it's received. You know, the malice becomes much more popular later on. And it's just, and it's just

something where you can be like, and the malice, you know, when you're writing your own nonsense, right? Oh, Eleanor, you have been fabulous to talk to once again. I would never throw you on a banfire. I'd never do that to you. That's so, that's the nicest thing that anyone ever said to me. You're welcome and I mean it as well. But if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? So you can come check out my podcast, obviously, Gone Medieval, also on History Hit, where all good history podcasts can be found. You can check me out on the socials on Instagram. I'm at Dr. Eleanor Yanaga. And on Blue Sky, I'm at Going Medieval. Will you come back again to talk more historical madness? Babe, I would be so delighted.

Yay. I'll see you soon. Thanks, sweetheart. Thank you for listening, and thank you so much to Eleanor for joining us. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like review and follow along, whatever it is that you get your podcasts. And if you want us to explore a subject, or perhaps you just wanted to say hello, or perhaps you wanted to let us know that you've found a nest of penises in your garden, then you can email us at betwixt at history hit.com.

This podcast was edited by Natasha Hughes and produced by Sophie G. The senior producer was Freddie Chick. Join me again, Betwixta Sheets, the History of Seats. Sex Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.