Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - The Mystic Nun Killed By Henry VIII

Episode Date: August 7, 2026

As if the Tudor world wasn't mad enough, in 1528 a mystic nun showed up demanding an audience with Henry VIII.Elizabeth Barton stood in front of him and told him that his controversial marriage to Anne Boleyn would make God strike him down.Did Barton survive this? Well, what do you think. As the only nun executed in English history, what was her origin story? How did she become so famous? And if her visions weren't real, why would she be faking them?Joining Kate today is author and historian Hayley Nolan, to help us get to know Elizabeth Barton and her mystic ways better.Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards. Click to place your vote on the Spotify mobile app: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/37i9dQZF1DX74ZgzrlyH29This episode was edited by Tim Arstall. The producer was Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Freddy Chick.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast.Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards. Click to place your vote on the Spotify mobile app: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJa Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Fantastic news, betwixters. Thanks to your votes, we are through to the final 20 of the Listeners' Choice Awards at this year's British Podcast Awards. We still need your help, though. Of course we do. We've got to keep those votes rolling in. And if you voted before, apparently, you have to vote again. It wasn't my idea.

But this time, follow the link in the show notes to the British Podcast Awards, Spotify playlist on your mobile app, where you can cast up to three votes for betwixt the sheets. But only in the Spotify mobile app. I'm sorry, it is a bit. of a pain, but your vote would mean the world to us. Thank you so much. Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Cade Lister. Welcome back once more to Betwix the Sheeds, the Smutty Historical Podcast. Huh? Yeah. Yeah, I know what you're here for. I'm here for it too. So let's not beat around the bush for much longer. But before we can

go any further into said Bush, I do have to tell you, this is an adult podcast, pocket by adults, to other adults, about adultery things in an adulty way, covering a range of all subjects, you'd be an adult too, because if you weren't already aware of the fact that this podcast can get a little bit naughty, but I suspect that's why we're all here in the first place. Right, let's crack on. This story begins in a small village near Canterbury in England in the 16th century with a servant girl called Elizabeth. She has no noble birth, no fortune, no political ambition that we know of. She was just an everyday background grunt.

But then almost overnight, Elizabeth came to national importance. There was a mysterious illness, a series of visions, and suddenly, Bishops, Pilgrims, and even the King and Queen of England are desperate to hear what she says. I mean, that's a hell of a career trajectory, isn't it? But as Elizabeth will learn one fundamental rule, what goes up must come down. So who helped Elizabeth on her way up and who was there to greet her on her way down? I am ready to find out if you are. Hello and welcome back to Betwixte Sheets, the history of sex scandal and society with me, Kate Lister.

Long before social media influencers were selling protein powder and suspiciously effective teeth whitening kits, Tudor England had Elizabeth Barton, the so-called Holy Maid of Kent. And she didn't have followers so much as, well, pilgrims. And she was even epically cancelled. Not online, she ended up being hanged by the king, the only nun to be. executed in England, in fact. Elizabeth's tale is one of belief, abuse of power, and one woman's extraordinary rise and fall from obscurity.

Joining me today to tell us more about this extraordinary woman is the fabulous author and historian Haley Nolan. Rosary Beads are the ready, everyone. Let's do this. Well, hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Hayley Nolan. How are you? you doing? Very hot.

But it's sweating already, but you know, it is. Trying to do history in a heat wave. It's just, you just reach critical temperature mass, don't you? And you're like, I don't care anymore. I don't care about history. Leave me alone. At least we're not on Bake Off on Ice Cream Week. Yeah, all right, yeah. Think of those poor souls. Absolutely. But you have a new book coming out, don't you?

Yes. a notorious Anne Boleyn and the great Tudor hoax. What could be more intriguing than that? I know. Well, that's a very good title. That's a good, not clickbait, read bait. I went for that. I wanted people to go, ooh, hoax, you say? Tell me more. What made you want to write this book?

The question that we ask of everyone with a new book, but what's the origin story? I came across this snippet of information that said, so I'd heard of, if this is the holy nun of Kent, and I'm sure any Tudor fan will know of her or heard of her in person. She was basically, she did the great judah hoax. But I'd always dismissed her as a sort of crackpot. Okay. And I shouldn't have.

That was my own mistake, but I did. And then I came across one piece of evidence that said that Anne Boleyn offered her a place in her household. And I thought, hang on a second. Why? There is more to this story. I need to come back to this. So I parked it.

And I always thought, come back to all this evidence. And then I, the time just popped up sometime last year. This has been a very well-worned experience for me. I wrote it. I mean, I did all the research probably in about six months because it was all just there, ready, fully formed in the archive. Wow. Yeah, it was actually pretty thrilling.

And then I wrote the actual book itself. Once I'd got everything in order, in about three months, because I just couldn't wait to get onto the next section. It just came spilling out. I loved it. I genuinely enjoyed writing this. Yeah, it was so much fun. There will be many people listening who are going,

the holy maid of where, sorry, what, who, pardon, who's that person? Because you're just enlighteners, the holy maid of Kent. Who is that? It's a wild story. So basically, she faked prophecies from God. She's not that holy. Yeah.

Yes. Well, that's up to debate, some might say. I'm going to sound so skeptical as I tell this story because I know how it unfold. Okay. But yes, I'll try not to be skeptical at the beginning. She stood before the King of the King of the King of, England and threatened to his face that if he divorced Catherine of Aragon and married

Anne Berlin, God would strike him down. How you do? I know how ballsy. Honestly, to do what she did. It's pretty incredible. So then from there, she became a national celebrity. She had books and pamphlets written about her. She went on tour.

She had these, what I call, I position them as her celebrity manager and publicist. Just so I want people to understand that a relationship she had. had with what was essentially her spiritual father. Uh-huh. Yeah. He was also not so spiritual a father. But what was incredible was then the celebrity fan she gained in people like the Pope, you know, just small people.

Holy fuck. Wow. I know. She's not messing about. Okay. She was not messing about the Pope Cardinal Walsy. And the thing is, the Tudor Court and Henry VIII actually blame her for the seven-year delay in divorcing Catherine, marrying Anne Berlin.

and also the break from Rome. They say that she seduced the Pope with her diabolical lies to excommunicate the king. In fact, this is what makes me think, my God, regardless of whether this was a hoax or not, it's incredible, that when the Pope sent his threat of excommunication to Henry VIII, he sent it to the holy nun of Kent fast. So she's a big deal then. What's her name? Elizabeth Barton.

I know. I always refer to her as the nun. There's a lot of Elizabeth's in my research at the moment, so it just helps me to... Elizabeth Barton. This is somebody that stood in front... I don't know where she stood in front of him, but just said you can't get married. Yeah. And then got a load of fans, including the Pope, and became a Tudor celebrity.

Yeah, she was the influencer of her day. She did influence a lot of people, so... Wow, okay. All right. You know why. I loved this story. She has caught my attention. So presumably then for her to be doing this, must have had a very aristocratic background and be very influential to be to be shouting at the king. You would think. But that's what makes this story so intriguing. Even more intriguing than it already is.

No, so she started off as a housemaid. So she was housemaid to Thomas Cobb. Now, this is important. Thomas Cobb was a land agent to the Archbishop of Canterbury. So you can see now where the connection is that she would end up in front of Henry the 8th. Because, as you can imagine in Cheater, England, there were many a crackpot play I mean to have visions. It must have been ten a penny. Yeah. So maybe we could call her a Nepo profit because she had a connection, potentially. So yeah, so she started having this bizarre illness that no one could name.

She would have what was described as convulsions and a trance-like immobility. How old was she when she was doing this? So this was 1526 and she was 19 years old. This was a couple of years before she was pushed in front of the king. And then she was, for some reason, play. placed within the chamber of the youngest child in the family, who was also suffering from an illness that no one names. And she inquired with one of the nurses, is the child still alive? And she said, yeah, it's still alive. So it won't be long. And then apparently, as they tell the story, in the next breath, the child died. And so obviously, as horrific as that was, they suddenly thought, hang on a second, has she just prophesized the death of a child? And she's having all these convulsions.

Now, is this a sign from God or is she possessed by the devil? It could have gone one of two ways. So that's when they brought in the local parsum of Aldington. It's a sensible decision. Hashtack science. You've got to find out, is she legit? So he was brought in, and this is where it gets interesting. I mean, it was interesting already.

But every statement I say, I'll say, and this is where it get interesting. But, yeah, it just gets wilder and wilder. So he said, oh, my goodness. goodness, while you are having one of your trances that I've just witnessed, you just spoke many high and notable matters of the seven deadly sins and the Ten Commandments. This is a miracle. You don't remember this because you were unconscious. You were in your trance. So do you see it a little bit suspicious? I would be asking some questions, but then I'm not an everyday person in the 16th century. And I guess to them, this kind of stuff is conceivable that she's having,

So she's having like fits and she's having visions and she's walking around prophesying about people's babies dying at the age and she's 19. Yes. And apparently whenever this voice that she didn't know was being spoken when she was in a trance, when it spoke of the joys of heaven, it spoke so sweetly. But when it spoke of hell, it spoke terribly and like a sort of demon voice. So you can imagine why they'd be slightly freaked out either way. And who's this past a person that turned up? What's his name? Yeah. So the parcel of Aldington. Richard Mester, so he then ran to the Archbishop of Canterbury and was very eager, said, oh, and also, I must point out, she herself was clearly very skeptical at this point.

There was clearly some pushback because he threatened, essentially threatened her and said, you would be greatly blamed if you did not share these wondrous works that are shown to you through God. So she's having fits, and it seems that when she's having fit, she is unconscious. So this could be, we'll discuss what it could be, but it could be something like epilepsy. Let's just go with that. But then this guy turns up and says that while she was out having these fits, she was saying all of this stuff. Yes, all these godly visions. So he clearly wanted to believe it was something holy.

You know, because at this time, the church was coming under threat from the reformers. People were questioning things. So I feel my instinct is he didn't want, especially a demonic presence in the house of the land agent of the Archbishop of Canterbury. I think those would have been raised. So when he went to the Archbishop, though, he was also skeptical and said, okay, look, before we ring it as a miracle, let me send some more of my men. And this is where he sent over a man called Edward Bocking, who was a monk from Christ's Church in Canterbury, to sort of, again, observe her.

Bocking, okay. Bocking, remember that name. He is going to become the spiritual father, the manager. So during his time there, then she had another revelation, said, you know what? I am ill, but our lady said, if I go to the local church, she will cure me of my illness. So he took her there. Apparently 2,000 to 3,000 people went to witness this miracle of our lady. Right. She didn't cure her. She said, I will delay your cure for a season, which is a little bit suspicious. Maybe the girl knew she... Waiting lists. You know, you've got to take that in consideration. Yeah. The whole long line of people who needed to be cured.

It's like the NHS. Exactly. You're not getting a scene right away. Calm down. Yeah. I will do it, but in a few times, I'm like, we'll get into it. But in the meantime, she should go and profess herself a nun.

So join a nunnery. And I think it was that that made people think, hang on, she can't be the devil. The devil wouldn't say go join a nunnery. She must be holy. And it was at that point, she was seen as like the holy nun of Kent. And the local chapel was turned into a shrine to her, which obviously people paid to visit and be cured.

Of course they did. Of course. Did anyone call a doctor at any point? Or was it all just, we'll go and get the vicar immediately? I think that I feel like there was a physician at some point very, very early on. I think. It must have been. I mean, I know that it's not cutting edge, but like even somebody to just, you know, have a look from a physical point of view.

They probably put a few litre's on her. Yeah, it's not working. It's not working. She's still having one. still. Damn it. We're at the limit of our medical knowledge here. Right. Okay. So she went to St. Sepulca nunnery in Canterbury. But she's not a nun. She wasn't a nun at that point. She was holy maid of Kent and then she would become the holy nun of Kent. Yeah. And it was at that point that Edward Bocking said, do you know what also? During one of your chances that you

won't remember conveniently, you said I should become your spiritual father. Oh, look at that. How handy. Exactly. So he at that point became her celebrity. He would visit her regularly. He would get all the prophecies that she had. Is like, anything you hear? Tell me, I don't suppose God's told you anything about this divorce that Henry the 8th is wanting to have at the moment. And she said, give me a moment. I'm going to go away, have a prophecy and I'll come back to you. The other nunns must have been pissed off. Yeah. Like you just live in your life and you're nunnery. You've worked really hard to be a nun. I'm not really sure of what the, you know, the process is to become a nun. But I'm pretty sure it's not just,

turning up at the door going I had a vision now I'm a nun. Like you must have to have nun training. They went to a nun school. Nunn school, right? And like having visions, that's like years into nun school. You can't just say... I was going to say vow of chastity. There you go.

They take the vow of chastity, the vow of poverty. They go to what? They give up a lot. Yes, and now they haven't. So she's gone and living a nunnery. I bet there was some talking behind her back. Or she's another bloody miracle, are she? Right. Okay, good for her. No, that's such a good.

point though because when it did sort of come to her downfall, the nuns were very quick to be snitching on her saying she would sneak out in the middle of the night to meet up with this man. See. See. They didn't have her back, you know? All right. So we've got this situation happening over here. She's having her visions.

And all these men are around her going, well, when you were out, you actually told me to be in charge. What's happening at the Tudor court, like running in parallel with this? Like, how are these two timelines going to? collide. So when she started in that 1526, that's when Henry the 8th focused on Anne Berlin and decided she wanted to marry her, declared that in 1527. So it kind of came out around the time. So yeah, by 1520, she met Henry the 8th in 1528. We're figured. That's another thing about all these sources. They tell them all in retrospect when everyone was being hauled before the authorities.

So they tell them very conversationally and don't give us exact dates and exact months. So we have to pinpoint by when they're corroborated with each other and also other other things that they mention and timelines. So yes, Anne was sort of raising to prominence at the same time that she was when she was having her books and pamphlets written about her and her miracles when she was in the nunnery. She was women whose breast milk had run dry. She was making them be able to produce breast milk. Oh, she's doing miracles. Okay. She brought a man back from the dead. Let's not brush over that. Oh, okay. Okay. Right.

That's impressive. I think so, really, and conclusive evidence, really. But yeah, so that's at the point where she decided, well, she decided, I think her managers wanted to stop the Catholic divorce from going ahead, essentially. So they tried to contact the king via Thomas Moore. They sent him a letter. He dismissed it, mocked it slightly, said, you know, I don't really see anything valuable in her visions, apart from the fact that now and again she speaks in rhyme, which is impressive.

I'm impressed, yeah. I don't know if that's a vision, but I'm still impressed by it. It's kind of like the M&M of her day. So he dismissed it. So then they changed her tact, went for Walsy with a letter that by this point, the Archbishop was on board, Archbishop William Warren, on board, sent a letter to the King's Advisor Cardinal Walsy. And that's where she stood in front of him and threatened him that if you let this divorce go ahead, will bring you down as well, not just the king. How does she end up in front of him? Because that's like, yeah, she's a nun and she's doing a miracles.

But like to be standing in front of the king's chief advisor, that's still a leap. So this was through the Archbishop of Canterbury. So yes, he gave them a letter and obviously the letter of introduction. And so that's where the whole Nepo prophet part comes into play. You clearly have seen that they've all got these connections. Exactly. How can you get in front of the King of English? And I also think that getting in front of Walsy is one thing, but because he was also trying to stop the divorce from happening, wasn't getting anywhere with Henry and was faintly terrified of him. I believe he thought, well, hang on, if this girl's willing to do it, let's push her in front of him. Let's see if a bit of godly threats were terrifying. And that's how she found herself chastising the king, saying, I mean, her threats got more and more elaborate as he kind of dismissed her over the years. So it went from, you'll lose your throne.

within a month. And then it turned into, I see your seat in hell. Wow. Which is a bold claim for a girl, or for anyone to say to the King of England. That was actually the one that got a condemned. But before we get to that, like, how common were mystics in Chudor England? Like, was it, like, I know we were talking earlier that they were 10 a penny, but the idea that you can have some visions and you can throw some fits and then suddenly the most powerful people in the country are like carting you around and are really interested in it. It just seems so bizarre that that happened. But this is a culture where mystics are important.

And maybe you can tell us a little bit like, well, what is a mystic actually? Well, so if you think about it, Tudor England was, oh, it's an incredible. I don't feel we can really appreciate how spiritual and superstitious a time was. Lifespans were short, so life on earth was sort of seen as a prelude to everlasting salvation, you know, in God. spiritual kingdom. And so the only sort of guidance they had to go by how to navigate earth was the revelations and the wondrous teachings of the Bible. So they clung to all those incredible stories there. And anyone who had a closer, well, was deemed to have a closer spiritual connection to God, which is your preachers and your visionaries and your prophets,

Anyone who could potentially, you know, cure you or forgive your sins, indulgences at this time were huge. And this is something that Martin Luther was calling out. So an indulgence was essentially, for anyone who doesn't know, the sale of forgiveness for your sins. So for a donation to the church, you could have your sins wiped clean or maybe some of your years in purgatory could be washed clean. However, people took advantage of this. and there were a few corrupt indulgence preachers. One, who is a great example of this, is called Johann Tetzel. And he said, the indulgence that I am selling is so potent

that it could forgive the sins of a man who had violated the Vajimary. See, I mean, I understand that that's quite a handy shortcut if you don't fancy devoting yourself to a lifetime of prayer and penitence. But I can also see how this could be quite a corrupt system. Bung the church a few quid and they'll let you off. Yeah, that's what everyone started to push. back against and like the sale of access to holy relics, which people did believe in them. But then again, there were people who, and Berlin looked into one at Hales Abbey that priests

were mixing up a concoction that was pretending to be the blood of Christ, which people would then pay to be in front of and be cured by. So, yeah, there was a lot of corruption. But that's how people believed so much in these visionaries. And everything was interpreted, like, as a message from God, whether it was increment weather or a dream or indeed a prophecy. Yeah. It is kind of hard for us to conceptualise.

Now, even I think the most devout people today are not as devout as they were. Oh, no, no. I mean, this was just part of the warp and the weft of people's lives, wasn't it? Now, women weren't allowed to be preachers at this point, whether, like you couldn't, or maybe they were. You can tell me, but if you're a mystic, it sort of seems like a way through. I'm thinking to people like Marjorie Kemp or even people like Joan of You know, the idea of that there's a woman and that she is magical.

But you notice how they allow these women this sort of power until it gets too powerful? Yes. And then they bring them down. There's always that little pattern going on. And I think with it being like a young girl, she's sort of seen as innocent and pure, a vessel. They are always seen as the vessel and never the important ones. It's always the message they're bringing. And actually, what's interesting is during her time, Elizabeth Barton's time in power,

in her celebrity land. Another prophet came to her saying, oh my God, I was told to come to you because I'm also having these visions and I thought you could help me. But instead of aiding her, she warns her off and says, oh, do you know what? No, no, no, your visions are from the devil.

And I think she was actually threatened. That's my interpretation anyway. Get off my turf. Exactly. It's like, you're coming for my success. What if there was another? Yeah, what if she took over where, you know what it's like today

when there's a new celebrity? and what is it the sort of... It's not healthy competition that, is it? No, absolutely. I'll be back with Haley and Elizabeth after this short break. She is caught in some of the most powerful people in the country. How does she get to be in contact with the king? What is that encounter like?

Or Anne Boleyn, for example, and what did they make of her? So almost definitely, I don't see how else it could have happened that they went to Walsy, then the next minute, she was in front of the king. So it was obviously Walsy who put her in front of him. Where, though? Like accosting him on the street? No, no, no. Yeah, in his audience chamber. Yeah, it was an official audience with the king. It's insane. So he had to sign off on this. Do you want an audience with some woman that's going to turn up and shout at you? Yes. That sounds great.

I love that. But you think the thing is, he had already dismissed the sort of spiritual warnings at the beginning of his marriage with Catherine of Aragon, which is why they had the dispensation in the farce place saying, or your brother's widow. So maybe he thought, oh God, I've not had a son, which is God's good grace and proving that he approves of the marriage. So maybe I shouldn't have. Maybe I should hear this girl out. But he wasn't too worried at first.

It seems like he dismissed it. You'd think he would have berated her, but he didn't. Sort of was slightly amused by her. And then as the visions went on, as her power grew, as they realized, hang on, she was inciting rebellion in Catherine of Aragon and Princess Mary and getting the Pope on board and slowing down their marriage essentially. I think it was Anne Boleyn's idea to get her back in where she did at first berate the king again and tell him more vision she had. But then Anne Boleyn offered her a place in her household. How bizarre. Don't you think that I believe that that speaks volumes as to who

Anne Boleyn thought was pulling the strings. If she really thought this girl was the main ringleader, super corrupt, trying to bring her back. You wouldn't have wanted her in her household, would she? She's trying to wrestle her away from the puppet masters. Exactly. And also, I mean, she was trying to shut her up as well. Two birds with one stone. But if she, because I honestly don't think she would have offered her a place in her household with intimate access to her.

if she'd have thought she was truly evil and corrupt herself. Does she take her up on that? No, I think at this point she, well, this was before Anne Boleyn was married. So I still don't think the nun thought she was ever going to be able to go through with this marriage. What Catherine of Aragon made of all of this? Well, Catherine actually refused to see her, which was very smart. And even Thomas Cromwell, the new advisor to the king, said that it was very smart of her to keep her distance. but at the same time, she allowed her best friend, the Lady Exeter, to meet with the nun.

And they had various meetings where she would go into a trance. And actually, it seems like Exeter wanted some advice and prayers from the holy nun. So she believed her, which proves, indicates that Catherine of Aragon also believed this girl. And Henry VIII did say he admitted to the French ambassador that it was this nun's, well, all her terror. words and godly preachings that did incite Catherine and Mary's disobedience. And you know if one looked to them as the Catholic figureheads. Yeah. So I think they only fought as hard as Catherine and Mary wanted to.

So they could see that she was having this real impact. But yeah, so at the point that she met up with Anne Boleyn, I think she got too big for her boots. And I think... And what about her handler? What about that guy bucking? What's he up to? So he is a shady figure, I would say. She definitely was manipulated by him because there were so many instances.

So, okay, when they were all questioned at the end, they were about three different documents that used the same wording that she had all these prophecies to please him, to satisfy the minds of those around her. And he would come to her regularly. He would apparently feed her stories of what the other prophets were saying, maybe to inspire her. But when she apparently wasn't,

she was going through a spell of not having visions, he then said, and I quote, how are you living virtuously? Yeah, I think God has taken back his good grace since you've not had any revelations lately. And when I read that, I thought, okay. Okay. I see you, sir.

And what's interesting is the reason he said, are you living virtuously, is because prior to that, she had confessed her sexual fantasies. She was grappling with, they call it sexual incontinency, which is morality. You remember, she has taken a vow of chastity. She is a young girl, so she's naturally going to be having these very normal urges. She shared them most likely in confidence with him, but then they found a draft of a new book that he was penning.

And I think because it was sort of laced with errors, I don't believe it was written with her consent or knowledge or input in any way. And he details the sexual fantasy she was having to shit. Yeah, he was about to lay it bare, initially. Wow. And also, there was a case of someone said, oh, yes, he shared her sexual fantasies with me at Christchurch. Does that book survive?

Do we know what she was fantasizing about? Yes. Fornicating with devils, basically. It's pretty tame, isn't it? That's okay. Is it? Okay. Okay.

It is in my book. That's pretty normal, pretty vanilla. Okay, all right, okay. I'd like to chat to you more about that, maybe you're fair. But I can see how they would be very, very upset by it. For a young nun, this was not tame. Yeah, that's true. That's true.

Rithing on her, becoming naked, turning into a naked man, offered her marriage. And so this is the point at which I question, first of all, I was thinking, okay, was she sharing her sexual fantasies just to be, you know, absolved her role? There's something weird going on here. Well, that's the thing. Was she flirting with him? Did she want to entice him in some way? Or was he taking advantage of perhaps she did have a childish crush? Which one of wasn't a child, but, you know, a young crush.

Because she then, one of her fantasies, she said, the devil came to me. Often in marriage. I said, no, he spat in my face and I have wiped this black spit off me. And look, here it is on a cloth, smell it. And apparently it smelled. of humans species. So she had smeared herself. Who asked him to sniff it.

And I'm thinking that's not the actions of someone who was trying to flirt with a man. That's a misguided flirting, that one. We need to, yeah, we need to rein that one back in a little bit. Do it sounds to me, like this sounds like it's very coerced. I mean, it'd be very interesting to get the psychologists involved in this. But this sounds like somebody who's putting pressure on a young girl, to perform, to perform these visions.

And if he's doing that, it sounds like he's getting something out of hearing these sexual fantasies as well. Like if she's going to that extent to, you know, to revolt him. Yeah. That's what that says to me. She was trying to put him off

rather than entice him. Or maybe switch the power. Or prove something to him. That's the thing. And throughout this book, I try not to sort of, I pose the question to the reader, you know, could it be this, could it be that?

I really try and let the reader make up their decision as to like, what was her motivation. Well, let's talk about that then. And I know as a good historian is like we have to first of all say, we don't know, we weren't there. We can't apply modern lens to historical context. It could be, you know, we have to be careful with these things. But like, you must have had thoughts. Like what, because the options here is like, number one, that she's just making all of this up and that she's consciously aware that she's making it all up.

And then we can have a discussion about why she might be doing that. Number two, she believes that she's having these visions. Or like, number three, medically something is happening to her. Like, what's your take on this one? Well, medically something clearly was happening. Yes. In terms of the vision. So I think the reason why she went along with it at Fass is that she trusted these men who said,

look, you're saying all these incredible things. Something's happening to me. I don't, yeah, I think so. And I think, obviously, there was a bit of pushback at FAST. And then the funny thing is, when you know she was threatening Walsy, and the Archbishop, you will drop down dead if you carry on supporting this marriage. By 1529, they had both dropped down dead. And I think she maybe thought, oh, maybe there's something in this.

Maybe I actually... Yes. And also, if you think about it, when she received the excommunication from the kicks... Okay, so when the king did eventually Marianne Berlin, they had an emergency discussion about, okay, maybe we weren't wrong with these prophecies. perhaps we just misinterpreted them. Maybe he just won't be king in the eyes of God.

So when the excommunication threat came in, oh, hang on. If he was excommunicated, he really wouldn't be king in the eyes of God. Another prophecy is coming true. So I think she just gradually started to believe it. Yeah. Because you know how religious they were in this time? I don't think she would have outwardly tried to con the people

because how could she justify that to God? And she's kind of swept along with it, isn't she? and she's tangled up in forces much, much bigger than she is. Oh, gosh, yeah. I think many times she got very scared. I think there's proof in it that she did want to sort of quit the con at some point because she actually burned her veil. Now, this is the holiest part of her boughs as a nun.

So to burn the veil, that means she wanted to stop everything, quit us all. But somehow Bocking talked her round and, Surprise, surprise, surprise. Turned the burn nun into a holy relic saying, look, she was tempted by Satan again. Although she refused it. And now people are paying to succeed. They're not going to let her carry on with this, though. I mean, she's had a good old run, and she's got some amazing fans, a huge fan base.

But clearly, you cannot keep marching around saying that the king is damned for all eternity. I mean, a bit quirky at first, a bit of a novelty. We'll get her in. You can see what. what she's going to say, but they're not going to let that carry on. It is amazing that they let it carry on for as long as it did. It really is. In the same way that we historians have sort of dismissed her and dismissed it as a crackpot,

I think that that's what they were doing, thinking, oh, it's not really that important. But when they realised the impact she really was having, and at the point where she said, you know, I've seen your seat in hell, they hold her before the authorities. I think they tried to scare her at that point. And that's when she said, okay, I'm going to go away and have another prophecy. She said this twice, actually. Archbishop Cranmer said, you know when you said that you saw the king's seat in hell and you think he's going to die, can I have a bit more information on that. I'm quite sure about that.

Yeah, and at which point she's sort of kind, not backtracked, but said, oh, okay, bear with me a moment. I'm going to let me go away, have another prophecy and I'll come back to you, you know, schedule in a meeting with the angels. And yes, so then that's when her manager started planting the seeds of sedition around the country and saying, okay, all the preachers, are you ready to preach against the king if we say so? So they just went too far. And rather than scare her into silence, it kind of ramped up their campaign against Amberlin and Henry the 8th. So they got her back in, at which point she crumbled and she did confess everything was a hoax. Oh, she confessed the whole lot. Does her confession survive?

It survives in the, so there's these various documents we work from the Act of Attainter, which is parliamentary statute that allows a tutor court to condemn a person to do. death who hasn't stood trial. I think the next person this was applied to was Thomas Cranmer. We also have the sermon that was preached against her. So because they couldn't then, when she'd confessed to it all, they couldn't just martyr her and kill her because she had so many fans, they had to discredit her. So they took her around the country on what I call the tour of shame. And she had made to stand on a platform while a sermon was preached telling the entire story. and all the terrible things that she did, all the way she misled people, deceived her fans,

so that they would turn against her. Wow. Oh, that's nasty. I know, but then you think about it. There are so many modern parallels with our wild today that are in this book. I try not to draw them just in case someone wants to read it and have a complete Tudor escapism. But there is one part where I say, you know, if you think about it, this was the deplatforming that we have today and the execution

for the formal form of cancellation. This is like when you see somebody on social media posting something like yesterday, I said that such and such did such and such and such. I would like to recant my confession and we apologise unreservedly and you're looking at it going, lawyers, there were lawyers.

That's it, yes. Yeah, it's a Tudor PR machine, like damage limitation. And how long were they wheeling or around the country going, tell them, tell them, tell them it was all crap. It was only a matter of weeks. and do you know what I think they may have just left it there because it was quite effective she was discredited everyone turned against her and oh and all the managers so predictably

threw her under the bus I bet you fucking did you believed her oh my that was our mistake he had no idea who saw that coming yeah but it's at this point I think she realized oh they're not going to kill me I'm not going to be marty and have everlasting salvation I'm now just going to have to suffer this terrible life again being hated by everyone so that's where she had another vision from the angels. Well, it kind of gets modelled at this point, which I think says a lot about her state of mind and the fear she was going through because she said,

no, no, an angel came to me while I was in prison and said that I should pretend it was all a hoax because you're just not ready to hear it. The people are not ready to receive this message. So she's fighting back a bit then? He starts fighting back. And I think, you know, the authorities probably thought, my goodness, this girl doesn't quit.

She had an option there. could have just gone and lived in, you know, quiet obscurity somewhere as, you know, the person who wants spoke a load of crap. But she doesn't and she must know what's on the line by doing this. I think she wanted to die. Right. I really did. I think she wanted to be martyed. Blazer glory time. It is. It's all about that. Again, that was a very true to think. Yeah. I don't think we didn't want that today. Everyone will. Well, I don't know, you know, because sometimes I think about it. And like, your reputation is so important. Like, we often say things in the past, like, oh, reputation is everything. Reputations everything today.

And there's been lots of research done on shame as a social mechanism and how powerful that is. But to be shamed on that scale is, and one of a big precursor and a big indicator of suicide is shame. It's like heaping that on to somebody. So I can just like, it is actually a very powerful motivator of like, rather than be hated by everybody and be completely discredited and have everyone and say that you're talking absolute crap, I think that a lot of people actually would go, actually, no, blazer glory, that's what we'll do and I'll redeem myself that way.

Yeah, no, no, I can understand that, especially that she probably had nothing to live for at that point. Right, yeah. Would they have taken her back to the nunnery? No, I doubt it. Good point, yeah. She'd have gone back to being a housemaid, who'd have had her?

I'll be back with Haley and Elizabeth after this short break. So she has this vision of, like, actually, no, I was right all along. Then what happens? And then they said, my God, kill her. Long story short, kill her. And this is where they brought her in front of a group of the highest ranking people in the country. And the scenes were incredible. This is what she'd already been condemned to death, and along with, thankfully, the men. Bocking, did he get, he's been Nick, does he? And also her publicist, Henry Gold, who had been the Archbishop of Canterbury's chaplain.

Right. He'd been spreading the prophecies and also Richard Mastor, the person of Aldington. So thankfully, justice prevails, they also went down with her. But yeah, scenes in this corvette, everyone was so outraged by her story that they all started chanting,

to the stake, to the stake. They wanted to see her burn. This anger against the power that this woman, this young girl dared to wield. Yeah, so, and then she, She was hung, drawn and headed. Oh shit, they went for the full hanging drawing quartering. So they must have got her on.

Was it treason charges they got her on? Yes, I think it was treason. Walking around saying the king's going to die horribly and that he's... You don't actually go into the actual charge. They just, it was everything. That's a really good point. Just being loud and talking shit is enough. Walking.

She was gone on charges of talking, daring to speak. So hanged, wow. Okay, so where did that happen? So she was drawn for, and went drawn, I used to think that that was way back in the day, the whole like splitting open note. Drawing is when they sort of put you on a pallet that's drawn through the streets by a horse

and where everyone is goading you, spitting on you. Imagine like the crack of your bones on the hard cobbles. It was horrible. Yeah, really nasty. Yeah. So you were battered and bruised. by the time you got to Taiwan, which she was then hung, but not to the point of blacking out, or potentially she didn't. If she did, she would have been slapped awake so she could have

been awake when they beheaded her. What about the others that the men involved, they meet similar fate? Exactly the same, yeah. So, and I do, it doesn't say, but I wonder if because of their ranking, usually it's the highest ranking goes far, so I don't know whether they would have been killed first, and she would have had to watch them and witness it. have that fear sort of building the joke. It's utterly disgusting. You get kind of like header and you have to write it out because you really want to understand what they went through or rather what. Like the spectacle of that of just how violent and how gory that would have been. Yeah. And it was a, you think about it, it's a warning to everyone else. This is what happens

when you not as defy the king, but you speak against him. You try to con the king of England. This is what happens. But people actually turn up and everyone was so angry at being conned and scammed that they turned all their hatred towards who was being killed there at that point. So yeah, the baying wob was all Do you know, was she

buried anywhere or just like chucked her pit? He had the classic head on a spike. Had the spike. Oh dear. Getting queasy, just thinking about it. I need a step before she, yeah, it's... And how old was she when that happened? Early 20s presumably. Yeah, so she

was 22 when she met Oh, I got great historian, bad at maths. All historians are bad at maths. Calculate for me. 22 when she met him the King in 1528. And this was 1534. Six years later, so 28? Yes.

I'll just say yes. All right. Let's hope that we've got that one right, because people love to write in if you can't do math. Don't come for me for, or you can come from me for the math. I'm not a mathematician, it's fine. All right, so 20s. She's a young woman.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's just a young woman. It's pretty horrific. So there's a final question then. Like, what is, what is her legacy? Because you opened it by saying that I thought she was just a crackpot. And presumably you think that because that is generally how she's discussed within Tudor history. Yeah. And what do you think her legacy was? Were people sad when she died?

Did it take a while for people to try and revise, has anyone tried to revise this history before? Yes, well, she prophesized that Henry VIII's daughter, Princess Mary would take the throne, and obviously that didn't happen. But then years later, 20 years later, was it? Again, the mess. When she did, I think it was Nicholas Sander who tried to revive her and just say, well, actually, she was right because look, she has taken the throne. She won't profit. And also that worked because she prophesized against Am Berlin, so that played into all of that as well. But in terms of her legacy, I was going to say we should end on a high, but it's not really a positive one. So because she incited the...

this rebellion in Catherine of Aragon. And because you put so much pressure on Anne's marriage that had to survive, I think there was no room for error. So when Belin did not bath the sun and air, which was the sign from God, they all thought, okay, maybe the nun's right. And it again, left no room for error. And when it came to wanting to get rid of Anne Boleyn, because they'd had this seven-year battle with Catherine of Aragon that was incited by the nun that's why I think they thought, okay, just off with her head. Let's just watch of her.

How would you like her to be remembered? Because there's a lot in this story. Like, is she a con woman? Is she a victim? Is she... Maybe she was a prophetess. Maybe she believed it herself. How would you like her to be remembered?

As a balsy young woman. I think, no, I think, I don't like the idea of her being remembered as someone who was manipulated, but I think it's a good story to sort of show us what happened and how women really got the short end of the stick and we use and abused. I know that's not a revolutionary take. I know we're all coming in. But it's what happened. I don't think she was a crackpot. I think that's a good takeaway, not a crackpot.

Let's end on that. She was not a crackpot. I think she was a victim. I do. I think she was a victim herself, but a very ballsy one. Haley, you have been a revelation to talk to you. Thank you so much. I knew nothing of this. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? They can find me at hailynown.com. You can find me on social media at Haley Nownan historian. And you can get the book, which is notorious and the book. Great Guna Hokes, get the book.

Thank you so much. You have been marvellous. Oh no, thank you. Thank you for learning me. Yep, away. Rambal on. It was a pleasure. No, it's pretty. I am wilting. I'm just like, go and lie down in the fridge. Just stick my face. Yeah, in the ice cold freezer. I will do. Honestly, thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure. Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Haley for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like with you and follow along wherever it is you get your podcasts.

Coming up, we have episodes on Lord Nelson and Lady Hamilton with History Hit, head honcho, Dan Snow, and the start of a new mini-series exploring history's most dangerous women. If you'd like us to explore a subject, if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at betwixt at history hit.com. This podcast was edited by Tim Arstall and produced by Stuart Beckworth. The Senior Producer is Freddie Chick. Join me again, Betwixt Sheets, the history of sex scandal and society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.