Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - The Power of Medieval Gossip

Episode Date: July 8, 2025

People have always gossiped, but what did they gossip about in medieval times? How were women punished for gossiping? And where does the term 'gossip' come from?Joining Kate today to gossip about all things medieval gossip is the wonderful Eleanor Janega, co-host of our sister podcast Gone Medieval. This episode was edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.Please vote for us for Listeners' Choice at the British Podcast Awards! Follow this link, and don’t forget to confirm the email. Thank you!Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, my lovely bud twixters. It's me, Kate Lister. Thank you for dropping by once again. In fact, I'm so glad that you did because if you weren't dropping by, well, what is this? It's just a mad northern woman talking to herself in a cubicle.

But you are here, and thank God that you are. But before we can go any further, I do have to tell you, this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults, about adulty things, and an adult who wake up a range of adults and fix it. You should be an adult too. We call that the fair do's warning, because if you keep listening and something upset you,

fair do's, we did tell you. Right, on with the show. Hello, but Twixters, you have joined me at a very tricky moment. I am trying to thread this bloody needle, and it's proving now on impossible. Why am I here? Why am I in a medieval sewing circle? Because this is the lengths that I will go to to get some grade A juicy gossip, and I'm not the only one.

In the medieval period, spinning circles and sewing circles, and sewing circles were known to be places that women could go to get some gossip. And I know we all look down on gossip. We scorn gossip. Oh, gossip is terrible. I'll tell you what, for Twixters, gossip is powerful. And it has been all throughout history, and all of these women in this circle know that. And in this episode, we are going to have a good old gossip about women gossiping about gossip in the past.

Right, try saying that five times fast. Okay, on with the show. What do you look for in a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copons of whatever my boss needs by just turning enough and pushing the money. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, I feel for them for them. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Terry.

Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, History of Sex Scandal and Society with me, Kate Lister. The cornerstone of any good friendship is gossip. Don't give me that. Oh, I don't gossip. Well, I don't want to know you then. I know it's not the highest form of entertainment, and that maybe, maybe it's a little bit self-indulgent, but hey, it is a cheap thrill, and I am thoroughly here for it.

What's more? It's a great way to bond. That has been proven scientifically, by the way. But joining me today to explore medieval female friendships and the power of gossip is the one and the only, the gossip-tastic, Eleanor Janiger, co-host of our sister podcast Gone Medieval. How did courts try and punish gossip?

How did gossip challenge power in the medieval period? And just who were they all gossiping about? Needle and thread at the ready, betwixters, let's do this. And welcome back to Betwixta. It's Ellen Arna Yoniga. Fancy meeting you here on your own podcast. Yeah. They let you out.

Yeah, sometimes they let me stop recording Gone Medieval. for like long enough to come talk to you. You're the only other person that I'm allowed to speak with. Is that true? No. You've been banned from the other podcasts. I mean, not yet, but I'm working on it. No, well, I won't tell you why.

Well, actually, I might do because today we're talking about gossip. Scandal. I fucking love gossiping. I love a gossip so I do. You know, I always say that really historians, what we're doing is we're just gossiping about dead people. Just gossiping. I think that.

Oh, yeah. I'm just talking trash about dead people 24-7. And frankly, baby, I love it. But when you do it 100 years after the events, suddenly that's elevated academia. Look, I want you to know that I am an important public historian. Okay, I'm an intellectual. And also I have a lot of thoughts about these people. I've been through all of the sources.

Well, that's what people on TikTok and Instagram do as well. But they aren't viewed in nearly, you can't have a doctorate in gossiping. Maybe you can. I've said that. Yeah, you said that, like, we're going to get several doctors of gossip in the comments. And frankly, I salute you all. Please get in touch because I'd like to know more. I would like to know more.

Why do we, everybody does gossip him. Oh, so true. Actually, no, you know what? That isn't true. When I was at my last job, I was the chair of the union for the last year I was there at a university, right? And then the guy who took over after me was Jeff. And Jeff, he's a proper decent bloke.

He's proper old school. And he didn't gossip at all. And I remember it like, it really quite took me. back. I'm sorry, I trust Jeff the least. Put that on record. Okay, because if you say you don't gossip, I'm like, oh, who are you gossiping with? You are absolutely stroering it all up. And you're like, no, I would never. He didn't. I would, I'd be like, Jeff, what happened in that meeting? He'd be like, well, I can't tell you. What? What is Jeff? Jeff. Jeff, we're beefing. But that, no. Do you know what? He was doing it professionally and properly. I was, but I remember

being quite taken aback by the gist that I'm sorry, it's not appropriate for me to discuss this. Look, do you want to know the anthropological theory that I use to justify gossip? Okay. There is this theory, Dunbar's gossip theory, right? And the idea here is that, you know, when you see your groups of monkeys there, right? You see your great apes or whatever, and they've got a troop. And one of the ways that they create cohesion in a group is that they groom each other. You know, they do social grooming, and they sit down and they pick the bugs off of each other,

and they hang out and they do that. The theory here is that one of the reasons we developed language, is because you run up against an upper limit of how many people you can groom, right? Like, you know, in order to say, okay, well, we're all a group and we're all looking after each other, how many bugs can you pick off of how many apes in a day, right? But when you use words, you can share information or talk about things that will prove that you're part of a group or that you know people. And what gossip is doing is establishing that we're same part of a group because we can both be

like, Jeff, what's he like? Right. And a lot of the times when we use gossip, we do use it in a way where we groom. Right. So, you know, we'll share information on someone. We'll be like if this person is acting out of pocket, you know, things like that. So it's a way of kind of sharing information and establishing who is a cohesive group. Like who is in and who is out. Oh, that makes me feel better for being a nosy bitch. You're welcome. Quite frankly. But see, I would have been, there are professions where Jeff was right. Like, you can't be a lawyer and gossip about your client or a doctor. I would have been terrible at those things. I'd have been an awful spy. I would have just given it away. I would love to have been a priest and hear the confessions.

Yeah. I mean, this is the thing is that there are certain professions that specifically come with a no gossiping. Don't gossip. Behave. And, you know, they're... I bet they do. I mean, they've got to be talking somewhat. To other doctors.

Like, I mean, that's why therapists have to have therapists, right? it's just like kind of go in and do it right but you know it absolutely there are there's going to be limitations to that right and there are also kind of limitations that have been placed in society on the action of gossiping for quite some time right so like many people talk about this a lot right because for medieval people there is an idea that you have your reputation like it is an object they are really worried about that like reputation and I mean we still are today, if you lose your reputation, it's a really bad thing, but they are very protective. Yeah.

So your pharma, which is kind of like the Latin for your reputation, is conceived of as like an object that can lose. And so people, if they are saying things about you that aren't true or even if they are true, let's be real, you know, that can damage that. And in a society where there are business deals to be made and they're usually done specifically through reputation, you know, like no one can like Google you. and be like, oh, hey, is this guy like a reputable, you know, business partner? You need word of mouth that is going to say these things.

And if you find out that this person is doing dodgy deals or, you know, he isn't to be trusted after a couple of beers, you know, these sorts of things. That is going to really affect what you can and can't do in society. And so, attendantly, we kind of start to see later in the medieval period crackdowns on gossiping. Gossiping. Mm-hmm. This sounds like the kind of thing you might need to gossip about. I know, right? Why would they do that?

How on earth do you even do that? Do you just go and skulk around sewing circles? Well, one of the things that you do is you start basically like a campaign against gossiping from a religious standpoint. So that's clever. I'm about to tell you something that you're going to love. One way that they talk about gossiping is they refer to it as the sins of the tongue. Okay. So it's like the idea here is that we begin to see like more things like hell mouths that have like tongues that are coming out of them that are underscoring the idea that loose lipsing ships and, you know, talking about people and all of that, that becomes increasingly something that we see reflected in art where people who are scolds or who are gossips are in hell receiving ironic punishments, you know, like there'll be frogs dropping out of their mouths or things like that. Yeah, for gossiping, you know, which is very.

Very naughty indeed, right? We still judge it today. It's still, like, despite that everybody does it, it still has a, like, if you're gossip, that's a bad thing. Yeah, and we use very specifically the term gossip in this particularly pejorative way. But it's interesting because in English, the word gossip actually originally comes from the term like godsyb. So the idea is that you would gossip with your godsibs, right?

Like, you know, you're talking with your siblings, these people who are super close to you, the people in the village that are most, most close to you are going to be sharing information. And so the idea here is like, oh, well, I know what they're talking about, right? Like, you know, they're, oh, the girlies are at it again and they're all going to be gossiping. So eventually over time, we have this really nice term that is just kind of like a form of endearment or a way of talking about friendship or familial connections gets associated with negative things. And I mean, to be honest, it's because, you know, who be gossiping? Women.

Yeah. I don't know if I haven't seen the research on this. I don't know if this is true. But in my subjective anecdotal experience, women do gossip more than men. Men are shit are gossiping. And I don't know if that's just because they're just sneakier and they're just like having secrets. They're just gossiping about sport girl. Oh shit.

That's so rubbish. Like if I'd see my brother or something and he's been, oh, got my brother is in the military and I can't get anything out of him. Do you know what? Another Jeff, he just shuts it down. He will not tell me anything about where the bombs are. Okay, so in the first place, you know what? I think dudes do be gossiping. But, you know, I think that kind of what happens here is in the same way where guys,

especially under, you know, the heteropatriarchy, they're just hanging out with like their girlfriends all the time. They stop hanging out with the dudes. If you're not hanging out with the dudes, where are you going to get that gossip from? The gays can gossip. Oh, a prodigious group. They gossip well. God bless the troops. You know, they're making the world a better place.

That is top tier gossip. Yeah, oh, a really good stuff. And so, you know, fundamentally, but actually what it comes down to is that everybody gossips. Is there any research to say that men gossip more than women? Or why is it something that's associated more with women than men? Well, people don't really like women, do they? Is that what you're... I mean, I think that fundamentally what it is is that there is a worry very particularly

about what it is that women are talking about. Yeah. Right? So it's not necessarily that men aren't talking trash because they absolutely are. Okay, so there's this source that I love to play with, which is the archdeaconate protocol of Prague that is from about the year 1378 to about the year 1384. And what happens is there's a new archdeacon in town. And he's like, guys, I'm going to go door to door in every parish. And I'm going to be like, do you have any problems that I can help you with?

And these men are just out there being like so-and-so sleeping with so-and-so. Our priest is running a brothel. those guys have constructed wooden sex shacks in the churchyard that they charge access to. There's these grillies down on the corner. We don't know what they're doing. And like these guys just line up to tell all these stories about people. And like sometimes it's like, yeah, okay, like to be fair, if your parish priest is running a brothel, that's fair information. I think.

I think that's fair information. He probably ought not be doing that. But then sometimes it'll be like there's four chicks and they live in that flat. Uh-huh. they're selling herbs. Okay. Yeah, that's not as good. And that's not as good, right?

And so, you know, it is, it is kind of like devolving to the level of gossip because you have these things which are, you know, vital information in theory that you need to get across within religious circumstances. And then sometimes it's just like, okay, and, right? And so the men definitely are doing this, right? And in these ways that can really damage people's lives, right? You know, so we see repeatedly in this, for example, if they're complaining about, oh, there's these two girls that hang out down at the brewery.

And I think they might be sex workers. Why do you think they might be sex workers? Well, they're hanging out down at the brewery. And the archbishop is like, well, move them on and tell them if they don't leave, they can be excommunicated. Which is like a real problem, right? Whereas like the men who get caught running a brothel, they're like, stop that. You know, even though they're priests. So it's like we're seeing kind of like a gendered reaction to what the gossip about people is.

I'll be back with Eleanor after the short break. And we also see these kind of real worry about who's talking about what, when. And we very specifically see people talking about women, right? There is this real worry, for example, about what women are talking about when men aren't there. We know your secret. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So it's like we see this, for example, when people talk about the washing houses, right?

So like women all get together to do the laundry together because laundry sucks. It's just like the worst goddamn chore. It takes days to do it. It's like you got to layer eggshells and lie in a thing. And then you got to like drag it down. down to the washhouse where there's like running water. And everyone like helps bringing out the sheets and laundering things because it just, it just takes forever, right?

And then so of course, you're also going to talk while you're there. And the men are like, what is she doing in there? Oh, no. Is she talking about me? And they refer to these as the women's courts. Interesting. And it's like the idea is that in there, women are talking about things that they really ought not be talking about.

It's like, what? I'll tell you what the men are afraid of women are talking about your dick. Yeah, that's what it all boils down to. But also I think I've got this theory, again, this Professor Dunbar, give me a ring if you want to do anything with this. But I've got this complete nonsense theory, probably. But throughout the history of sex work, which is something that I've studied quite extensively, trying to understand why there is stigma against it and around it. And I think a lot of it might be because of the information they carry.

Like it's far more multifaceted than that. The fact that they see primarily women seeing primarily men and they see them at their most vulnerable but also their most aggressive and they are the people that know that they might have a spanking kink or want someone to piss on their head or whatever it is, that makes you quite vulnerable and maybe there's something about that is that the wives, the women, the people who are having sex would see powerful men. I mean, when Stormy Daniels broke loose with the information that she happened. Absolutely queen with the information that she carried about Donald Trump.

I mean, it wasn't damaging enough to stop and being reelected, but it was damaging information she had. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, this is something that is a very specific worry, right? And this will come out later in kind of like more comedic ways. So there is a form of poetry and song that is incredibly popular in the late medieval and early modern period, which are called like Alewife songs. And this is a period where things are getting really. really dodgy for women, right? We see a real repealing of women's rights and ability to do varying

things in the early modern period, whereas it was slightly better to be a woman in the medieval period. And part of this is sort of because the circumstances have changed, right? After the black death, you see more women who are able to move into towns, for example, because like your landlord isn't going to be able to, like, chase you down anymore because he did. And, you know, so you can just be like, all right, that's off. I'm going into the city. And what do women do? Well, women are brewers. women make ale because that's one of the things that they're expected to do at home. So you see rather a lot of successful women who are brewing a lot of beer. And you also see an uptick in the consumption of alcohol, like especially here in England,

we're like, hey, like we have invented the pub, thank God. Finally. We did it, folks, you know, right? So there are also more women who have more money to be spending in the pub. And they're hanging out with each other in the pub and they are talking. And people are absolutely certain that the thing that they're talking about is your dick. And so there's this one that is called a 10 ale wives, right? And there's these 10 girlies.

They get together and they're like, hey girls, let's have a contest. We'll all compare our husband's dicks. And if, you know, you decide that someone has the really best dick, she's the winner and we're all going to buy her drink, right? So it starts off like, let's all talk about how great our husband's dick is to find out who's the dick winner. But it's immediately like, my husband's dick is trash. Absolutely, like the worst dick you've ever seen in your life. Oh my God. And it's like, it goes through these women.

And like some of them are like, oh, it's like a tiny little snail. Like it doesn't do anything. One of them is like, if you, my husband's dick so small that if you tried to sell it at the market, you wouldn't get any money for it. Other women are like, my husband's dick is great, actually. It's so pretty. It's the prettiest penis that you ever did see. But he can't get it up.

I'm jacking it 24-7. going nowhere and like, you know, they're, and they get to this one point where one of them like holds up a pintel, which you use for spinning. And she's like, yeah, here's a pintel affair. Like, that's what I would want from a dick. And which is like also like very rude because pintel is like the slang for penis at the time. And it's like as dirty as you can get. Right. So are women actually doing this? Yeah. I do. When me and my friends get together, we talk of little else. Yeah. Well, that's not. It's just sex in the city, you know? I mean, yeah, like, yeah.

I sat down with my mates and gone, what's your husband's cock like? Yeah, ever. No. No, that is not. And granted, okay, there's like social conditions which are different. So, you know, at that point in time, everyone is constantly telling women from the cradle, you're sexual, you're sexual. The only thing you care about is sex.

You were so horny. Oh my God, you're mad horny. And it's possible that these women are like, damn, I guess I'm horny. And all I care about is penises. So that's what I'm going to talk about, right? Like, it's difficult to kind of untrue. tangled nature and nurture. But I would argue probably not.

Yeah. And they just don't care about your dick that much, right? Like, so this is, it tells us more about what the anxieties of men are than it really tells us about the actions of any women. But there's also kind of like, of course, the kicker here. Which is that that's also kind of threatening, not just because it's like, oh, it's embarrassing that everyone knows my penis is like a snail. I'm like a girl.

I do not know what that means. but I love to hear it, frankly, right? But you know, the only reason that women can ask for a divorce in the medieval period and be granted one is if your husband's dick don't work. Non-consumation of marriage. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So sharing information about whether or not your husband can't get it up

actually puts them in a precarious legal position. Because if they can't get it up, then you can, in theory, sue for divorce. Right. And it might be one of those things where, you know, women talking are sharing information, not just, oh, my husband's dick doesn't work. Then the other one might be like, oh, hey, girl, did you know you can get a divorce for that? Like, if you want, like, you can send him down to dick court and all the sex workers are going to jack them off. And then if it doesn't work, like you're a free woman. Congratulations, right? And so that is kind of like this worry because there's this power there in information. Still, I would argue that probably they are not talking about dick that much. I just don't think that they're that interesting. Look, girl, I recently rewatched all of sex in the city. And even if you watch all of that, they don't actually talk about dicks that much. Really not that much. They really don't.

Here's the thing, though. And again, I need to actually check the sources on this. Because I might just be making this up. Or Professor Dunbar can give me a ring. Women do seem to talk to one another more than men do. My evidence for this is the quote unquote male loneliness epidemic. There has been research done that shows that, like, I can't remember the exact figure, but a startling number of men regard their wife or partner as their only friend,

that they don't form close friendship groups, especially as they get older, whereas women do, and something that my mum said to me, because she's of an age now where, unfortunately, you know, people are dying. And she said that when the husband dies, the wife, the widow, she's sad for a bit, and then she goes on a cruise. if the wife dies, he will be married again within a year. Yeah. So I kind of think there is some evidence to suggest that women are more social with one another.

They talk to one another more, and certainly every reputation is talking more. And gossip's got to be part of that. But where do you think that even comes from? Because I don't believe in nature that we're just born with gossipy brains. Oh, God, no. That's nurture. Yeah. And it's, you know, a social thing.

We're told that that's what women do. Women do it because we're told that's what women do, right? And to a certain extent, we're also told very specifically that men don't. Right, that like friendship is not something that is celebrated in the same way among men as it is among women. And like to their detriment, obviously, you know, we were seeing more and more of this, right? And, you know, there's this kind of masculinity thing where it's like, oh, talking about your feelings gay, you know, right? Like, you know, to be clear, well, this is a gay positive podcast. I'm just saying, you know, how basics behave.

But there is this very specific thing where it's like, oh, well, if you're talking about your feelings, that's feminized. Yeah. Right. And so doing that thing, doing the things that are necessary to keep relationships going are feminized within our society. So they are the sort of things that it kind of like hurts your masculine points if you keep it going. Yeah. And my partner, Justin Hancock, the sex and relationships educator says, by the way, he is great. He's great.

He's great. He's great. He's great. He does like him. He says the thing that we do with men in these cases to get them talking. and he's like, taken with something where they can look at something else. Wow. So you can get men down the sport.

And if they're like watching football and they're looking at that, if they don't look at each other, they can talk about what's going on with that. He says, you know, a big thing you can do is sit on the same side at the pub. So like prop the bar, right? So that you're looking out over the bar. And then you can have a conversation about your feelings. And so that kind of eliminates this like, oh, like I'm being known as a person with emotions. and then you can kind of get into new spaces.

This must be the product of a millennia of social conditioning. The women are the gossipy ones. And also the gossiping was punished in women. The scold bridle. Tell me about that. Yeah. So, I mean, a thing that happens especially, and again, this is like the early modern period where everything gets really bad for women.

Not many evil. Yeah. They will make like little metal masks and put them on women and parade them through town and be like, she's scold. She's talking. She's doing these things. Another big thing, the ducking stool. The ducking stool, we usually associate it with accusations of witchcraft, but much more often,

we see, especially in the American colonies, that these are used on women who are perceived as talking too much. So women who are scolds, women who are gossips, women who are just using their mouths too much. You will see them waterboarded, essentially. You know, this is a form of torture that women are put through just for speaking. Yeah. You know, and there's no man who if a man yells at his wife a lot, he's not going to be put in the ducking stool at all, is he? No. So there is a very gendered reaction to this as well. But you know, all that serves to do is reinforce these hierarchies, reinforce these ideas about people. Because if the punishments are just something that is done to women, then there is also this innate, oh, well, I guess I do that. You know, I'm a woman. So it doesn't actually do anything to stop this. And actually, the thing that could stop these conceptions,

would be more people talking more often and sharing more information. I've also heard it refer to that gossip is a form of soft power, which is why it was associated with women a lot more. And this isn't medieval, but just go with me. If you look at like the novels of Jane Austen,

and I taught those to students, and even at university, the reaction was just like, fucking out. They couldn't get over the fact that not a lot happens. It's just people talking to one another. And I try and put it in the context of the time. Yeah, but for these type of women, that was all that they did. That was like, and then you can understand how gossip becomes much more of a premium because

it's something to do. Yeah. It's something to do. Like if you are basically, if you're an upper to middle class woman, you're sort of confined to your house and there aren't many things, then going to someone's house and talking about something, that's a big deal. Yeah, especially in the early modern period, right, where, you know, women have been, essentially now forced out of public.

You know, medieval women are in public all the time. They're working. They're doing all these things. Post-enlightment, it's like, ladies live in the house and men go to work. We call this a kitchen. Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, all you do, especially if you're incredibly wealthy, is hang out and hope someone comes around for tea, right?

And it's really limited by the social world. And men could at least move in public spheres and work and do and function that way. way, but women, the most, probably one of the most exciting things they had to do was go and talk to their mate. Yeah, absolutely. And what are you going to talk about? Your job? What job? Husband's dick. Yeah, exactly. I want to talk about your husband's dick right now, you know? So, yeah, it's one of these things where you can't simultaneously force women into an entirely domestic sphere and then be like, now don't you talk to anyone about, like, girl, what am I supposed to discuss, right? I'm not allowed to have a job. I'm not allowed to leave the house.

You know, there's only so many novels a girl can read. You can't even travel that. Travel's very difficult. Like, people do it, but it's really difficult. But yeah, we're not all Mary Shelley out here, right? So it's like, these are pretty extraordinary people who are able to do those things. And so we construct society in this way where the only thing that you have to do is gossip. And then we get mad at you about it because we just don't like women very much. I can completely see how in that world, anything, any crumb of anything that's vaguely interesting, yeah, that would get you through the day. But, you know, fundamentally, if you leave men to their own devices, I've watched men gossip all throughout the medieval period. Every single piece of gossip I've received is because some dude wrote it down.

I mean, like, think about Procopius is the secret history that he writes to be like, Justinian and Theodora were digs Theodora was jagging in all kinds of weird ways. She's shagged a swan. You know, it's like, yeah, sure. Yeah, I bet she's shagged a swan, buddy. Right? Like every single history of anything is gossip. Like, you know, every single thing that says that Eleanor Valkertaine shagged her uncle.

Gossip. Gossip. Right? And who's writing this? Men are writing it. But when men do it, it's not gossip. It's like, oh, this is a very high-minded thing about how Theodora shagged a swan. Was the medieval concept of gossip any different from ours?

No, it's pretty much like if a man is doing it, well, this is important information sharing. And if a woman is doing it, it's like it's gossip police time, kick the doors down, right? You know. So the ducking stool and the scolds bridal thing were early modern. Was there any punishments in the medieval period? I know in the early modern you have courts and you can sue people for calling them names, which is hilarious. You can sue people in the medieval period, like especially if you're brawling. If you're out in the street calling names, then you can get hauled before a court.

And then you're going to be put in the pillory or the stalk. and everyone is going to be like, ha ha, at you, right? But also fundamentally, one of the things that's a little bit different about medieval people as opposed to early modern people. Early modern people like to do this like, oh, like we're torturing, torturing. You torture medieval people by shaming them. You torture people by putting them in public and having everyone look at you. So, like, again, this is like a form of gossip.

It's like, ooh, she was talking trash about him and now she's in trouble or he, you know. And in particular, there is a little bit more that we see that men are the ones who are like taken before court for damaging other people's reputation, although women are definitely in the records doing this, right? But it just kind of like depends on, again, you know, by the time it's got to the courts, it's like, oh, well, this isn't necessarily gossip. This is legal. This is legal. You know, yeah, 100%. So like, what is it that we see here? And, you know, this grows over time. The main way women are going to get in trouble for gossiping in the medieval period is your priest will ask you. So you go to confession and he's like, girl, I heard.

from Janice that you said that she was talking about Jane's husband's penis right and so like and then he'll be like don't do it again you know 10 Hail Marys or whatever and you know we see this again increasingly over the period more and more interventions where it's like ask people if they're gossiping so to sort of round things off then I love gossiping and you love gossiping but you have to be careful with it because gossip is still very powerful stuff. And if you get it wrong, that's not good. You could still end up in court and you need to be very careful with it. Like there's even cases of people like, you know, putting stuff on social media, which is gossip and ending up in court. So what would be your tips for how to

gossip well? Well, firstly, I would love people that I don't know how to keep putting these on social media so I can read it. All right. I want to see it. But no, don't do, don't do, girl, do not put it in writing. Don't. If you put gossip in writing, it's no longer gossip. Do you, you know what? All you got to do is meet anyone who is a researcher of any description. Ask a journalist. Ask a historian. Do not write it down. It will come back to haunt you.

Correct. It will come back to haunt you. You got to do this in an ideal world face to face. Yeah. You know, like you need to be sharing. Do not send a voice memo? No. About the gossip.

Or an email train. This is the only time it's acceptable to make a phone call, in my opinion. I think so. Phone. I've got the tea. Yeah. Hello. You know, and everybody wants that phone call.

everybody everybody wants this conversation about gossip I know you shouldn't put things in a voice note but my favorite thing is when I wake up and there's a 15 minute voice note for my sister and it starts with can I just check if I'm being a bitch here and then I'm like yes here here we go please check please check if you're being a bitch here oh my god but you shouldn't read because then there's evidence you see don't

yeah I mean well what you've got to do is you got to put it on that like you know automatic delete yeah auto deletes your friend I suppose like Snapchat is the way to go if you're going to put it in writing, but don't put it in writing. Don't do that. Don't do that. That's like a far less actionable. Yes. I would say. Don't do that. But I mean, fundamentally, girl, I'm sorry, if you don't have anything nice to say, come sit next to me, right? Like, that's what that's what's up. But also, like, I think you need to know who you gossiping buddies are. Because there's, there's, like, buddies that you will just spill everything. But you're actually relatively confident that they're not

going to go. See? You're creating a social group. You're doing social grooming. You know, the people that you're gossiping with. You know, you know, you know, you know exactly who those people are. Yes. And that's how you create a nice, close, cohesive group and, uh, you know, call me. Well, thank you very much for coming and gossiping with me once more. You've been fabulous. Wow. Well, thank you, girl. I'll tell everyone that you thought their husband's dick was trash. Please do. Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Eleanor for joining me, you, you gossipy trollop you. I love you. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like with you and, follow along whatever it is that you get your podcasts.

If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, maybe you had some gossip to share, then you can email us at betwixt at history hit.com. Coming up, we have got an episode of Marie Antoinette in our Royal Sex series and The Sex Lives of the Roman Legion, all come in your way. This podcast was edited by Tom Delagie and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long and they're all terrible gossips. Join me again, Betwixtor Sheets, the History of Sex Scandal in Society.

a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.