Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - The REAL Bridgerton: Historians React To Season 3

Episode Date: June 18, 2024

*SPOILER ALERT: THIS EPISODE CONTAINS DETAILS OF SEASON 3 OF BRIDGERTON*With the second part of season 3 of Bridgerton dropping on Netflix in the last few days, Kate is joined by Catherine Curzon, author of Inside the World of Bridgerton: True Stories of Regency High Society, to break down how it stands up to historical accuracies of the era.How does season 3 match the historical goings on of the time? How did gossip become a form of power for women? Especially in a society that didn't allow them a voice in other areas of life. And who was the real Lady Whistledown?Also, if you'd like to find out more about this incredible period, you can watch Kate present a two-part documentary - Georgian Sex, Drugs and Rock n Roll: Unbuttoning Bridgerton - over on History Hit. Simply click here for a free 14 day trial and watch now.This episode was edited by Tom Delargy, the producer was Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.Voting is open for the Listener's Choice Award at the British Podcast Awards, so if you enjoy what we're doing, we'd love it if you took a quick follow this link and click on Betwixt the Sheets: https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/votingEnjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Get a subscription for £1 per month for 3 months with code BETWIXT sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscription/You can take part in our listener survey here. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? We'll sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles.

Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Dearest gentle listener, today I have something very special for you. You may have heard that London's fashionable set have returned for the new series of Bridgeton. You've seen their love stories, watched their decadent parties, and you've met the Royals and High Society darlings. But today we're stripping back all the tellers. televised glamour and finding out about the real Bridgeton.

Sex, drugs and celebrities in 18th century Britain. From the real life dating taboos in the Georgian period... It's this thing that if you had one dance with a man at a ball, that's fine. Two dancers signalled you were getting close. Three dancers, you may as well be married because everyone was going to be like, whoa. To partying and letting loose. These glitzy sort of or neat gas-liped. drinking venues that sprang up in cities around the country

where you don't sit down with your pals and have a drink. You're standing at the bar and you're having shots of gin. The It Girls and Boys of the Time. So Lord Byron is basically a rock star of his day. And of course, it wouldn't be Bridgeton without all the steamy sex. There starts to be the production of animal gut condoms. They were reusable, not forever, but certainly for multiple times. I'll also be uncovering this titillating time period over on the history hit website too for a two-part documentary series.

You'll see me taking off those gorgeous Bridgeton rose-tinted glasses and exploring the gritty underbelly of sex, drugs and rock and roll in Georgian Britain. Click the link in the description to sign up for a 14-day free trial. Won't cost you a penny. Bridgeton is one of the most popular historical series of all time. But how accurate is it? Wet shirts and Empire Waste dresses at the ready. P.S. we're covering adult themes in this episode, so if you're not old enough to watch Bridgeton, Fair Do's,

you're probably not old enough to be listening to this. And trust me, the real Georgians were much filthier than anything you see on TV. Those of you that haven't bugged off, just bear with me one moment. I am getting into my Georgian clobber one more time as we wind up our real Bridgeton mini-series here on I am not going to miss balancing this elaborate hefty wig on my head. That is for damn sure. In previous episode, which you can now go back and listen to at your leisure, we have delved into

the realities of sex, celebrity and drugs in the Georgian period. And now, with part two of the third series of Bridgeton dropping on Netflix, I am joined by Regency historian Catherine Curzon to chat through just how historically accurate it has been. How true to life would these relationships be? Are there flirting tactics on point for George and Britain? And how do the sexier moments stand up to the previous Bridgeton series? Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Catherine Curzon. How are you doing? I'm good. I'm over enthused. I'm rearing to go. Who else could we possibly have got in to do a recap of Bridgeton, the third series? We've had so much fun talking, not just about Bridgeton, but about the 18th century.

haven't we? Yeah. Oh, yes, we have. We have talked it into the ground and there's always more so we can just keep on talking which is fantastic. Have you now completed

season three of Bridgeton the second part dropped at the beginning of the week? Have you done it? Have you finished it? Have you? It's all done. Yeah, but some Herculean effort.

Yeah. It's been quite a busy week and you know when you just get to that point when you're like, I've got to watch that. I've got to watch. And instead of going, oh, I've got something to watch, I'm looking forward to that. You're kind of like, oh God, I've got something to watch and I have to do it. I was exactly the same. It's not showing any signs of abating in its popularity.

It's still got that kind of glamorous spell that it weaves over people, the whole world of Bridgeton, everyone's swooning. What was your thoughts on series three? As a historian, not as someone that just likes telly. As a historian, I do think, I mean, Bridgeton's always been a lot. little bit fast and loose with the history. But we've talked about that, you know, it kind of is this Fantasia, this Planet Bridgeton thing. I think it's getting more and more away from anything historical now. And, you know, it's still glittering and entertaining. But it's now very much, but it's not like a soap, but it's very much now kind of like deep into this sex. It's like footballers wives put in the region. It's like sex and scandal and everybody's at it and scheming.

and, you know, everyone's at everybody else. But they're obviously already, as I'm sure, we'll come to, sewing the seeds for the next season. And obviously with the much publicised gender switch of one of the characters from the book, so they're sowing the seeds for something coming up there. So I imagine we'll be quite spoilery in this conversation. Yeah, we should probably say that, shouldn't we?

If you've not watched it and read the books, then probably get out right now or just don't be writing as angry letters because we read things for you. Don't wreck it for yourself and then get angry with us. It's definitely become more and more of the romance fantasy kind of history gloss that, you know, your trashy, trashy romantic erotica that I'm such a big fan of that I wouldn't want to disparage up for a second. It's time well spent.

But it's definitely become that. But it's interesting the way it kind of crosses over different disciplines. Because on the one hand, it's definitely high fantasy and romance. and you can kind of let go and suspend your disbelief. But then it does also have boltholds in historical truth that kind of jolt you back and you're like, oh, okay. So then it kind of opens up a lot of conversations around it because when we were publicising stuff about how we were going to do

a mini Bridgeton series, inevitably people come out of the work. There's this one woman that comments on everything going, I won't watch it, it's too woke. I say, what do you mean by that? Do you mean, just mean that it's not just white actors in it, basically? So she's angry because she doesn't think that they would have been a queen who looked like the queen does in Bridgeton. But then there's also people go, yeah, but it's not real, it's not real. So it's this kind of weird hybrid thing, isn't it?

Yeah, it is. And that's, you know, as I'll say, it's this kind of Planet Bridgeton thing. And there's lots of stuff in it that's not historically accurate. But we've said this before, you know, it's not a documentary. And I think if you can get along with them sort of dancing to chamber music versions of Taylor Swift and Katie Perry, then you're in it. You've got to go with it. I mean, you can't go, well, I like that, but I don't like. That I don't like. That offends me, but that's okay. And it's also, I mean, just to touch on what you just said, obviously we both use Twitter a lot, it's that kind of thing where there's people that comment and everything just to tell you, I'm not interested. I'm not engaging with him. And it's like, that's fine. That's you do you. But I know now. Thanks for telling me again. But this woke thing, it's interesting because it seems to have sort of fallen off with this season. And I wonder if it's because Bridgeton has really stuck to those guns that this is Planet Bridgeton. This is how we do it. And maybe there's only so many times you can sort of beat the drum that this offends me. Maybe it's just this one woman who just keeps shouting at me all the time then.

And her drum is definitely still being banged. But you're right, I've not seen it in conversation as much in, like, the national press, where they tend to write stories of like, people are outraged. Not us, we're not, but some people are. And I think that's really interested in itself of like the objection to having cast an actor who isn't white to play a historical character. Because when you really get into it, no actor is going to look exactly like that person would have looked back then.

And really what they're saying is they want. to see black people, people of colour being treated badly in historical dramas. That's kind of what that is inferring is you want to see the trauma of it. Yeah, I think you're right with that. I think you're absolutely right. And it obviously, because we come from sort of television history of extremely white and extremely middle class, I mean, my husband is a massive Doctor Who fan and he loves all Doctor Who, all the old stuff. And I said to him that as a kid growing up, you know, working with. You know, working class kid that it was so refreshing later on when in Doctor E,

you started to hear like working class accents and voices that sounded a bit more like yours. And I think this is the British drama thing that everybody's RP, most people are white and RP going back through the history of British drama. And it really does seem to rub people the wrong way. But what's tickled me this time as well as I was doing some reading this morning about sort of responses to this series. And the Daily Mail had an article about it. is it too much sex?

But what made me laugh was they went through and they detailed what was in every sex scene. They detailed exactly the point you could see it. So not in episode one. It literally said, I think, 31 minutes into episode one, there's a six and a half minutes scene. And it was like, we were so outraged.

Here's the timestamp. We're going to tell exactly where it is, exactly what happens, and go over it again in quite lurid detail, just to make sure that your outrage too. With about 60 pictures, with like little black boxes. But it does have a historical thing to it.

It's got historical veneer. It's got historical trappings to it. And it is set. It always confuses me, and I've messed it up a few times, and people have nothing more than to point out. It's not. So it's been called 18th century Georgian and Regency, which are all kind of, like, I have been guilty in the past

of perhaps using those three interchangeably, when actually they mean quite different things. So break it down for us. When is Planet Bridgeton set? Planet Bridgeton is a kind of nebulous regency. Yes. So there's the long 18th century, which is a whole podcast in itself, because there's loads of different versions of how long the long 18th century is.

Pretty long. It's pretty long. You know, spoiler, it's way beyond the 18th century. But the regency began in 1811 when George III, who of course, course, viewers will know from Queen Charlotte, a Bridgeton story, succumbed to his mental illness completely. Yeah, went off his rocker. So, he went off his rocker, yeah, exactly. So he was no longer fit to rule. So he was kind of, I say locked away, but that's a lot harsher than it really became. He was sort of locked away at the castle. And the Prince Regent, formerly the

Wayward Prince of Wales, the Prince of Wales became the Prince Regent, which effectively gave him the powers the monarch would have, although they were quite slimmed down by the Regency Act. And the Prince Regent, of course, will be very familiar to your listeners as the ever-expanding future George IV, thoroughly bad lot, a girl in every poor,

up to all sorts, and he is the man who would have presided over the world of Bridgeton, and I think would have quite enjoyed being part of the world of Bridgeton. I was just thinking, I think they might have missed, something you could have got George Georgie boy in there because he was such a prick. I think that he would have definitely spiced some Bridget any things up.

I am amazed he hasn't been in it. Honestly, I am amazed, yeah. Because he was just physically, he was such an odd figure. You know, because he went from being this sort of beautiful young prince, absolutely stunning, to be in, you know, this rougeed, powdered, really, fat man who didn't just sort of embrace what he had but squeezed himself into corsets, tried to hide it all, went out in pink tights with his kilt on. And how is he not there? And also I think it would have been nice to see him really ruffling Queen Charlotte his mum's feathers because we don't ever see

her ruffled, but she and he used to have these violent arguments. And I really think, unless he's coming in a future episode, I do feel like they've really missed a trick. Because I was watching it last night and maybe it's because I had to watch episode after episode after episode. But I was and I'm really sorry about this Bridgeton fans. We can take this offline if we need to. I found it a bit boring. I found maybe it's just because it was like it was I was watching them back to back. But I was just sort of sat like, oh we're outside again.

Now we're inside again. It's a ball. It's another ball. Oh good. Did it feel a bit rinse and repeat to you? It did feel a bit rinse and repeat. And again, I was binge watching it. Maybe if I'd spaced it out.

but then I put my historical hat on and I remembered something that I used to teach the students whenever we did Jane Austen and they would always, because they were only 18 and they were the first years, and never to be somebody would very tentatively raise the point that it's really dull. This is really boring.

There's that infamous online review of Pride and Prejudice that was like, it's just a bunch of people going to meet other's houses. Yeah. And I explained it's sort of like, but I needed to understand it was quite a boring world for women. You have to understand that.

It is a bunch of people going to other people's houses because the women in this, the middle to upper class women, had very, very narrow lives. Is there any way that we can apply that to Bridgeton? That it might be a bit dull and a bit constrained. But there is some realism in that, as in their lives would have been quite prescribed as well.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's exactly, you know, if you were the upper class, like the ton, like we've seen Bridgeton, you had everything, but everything you had was kind of you had the big house and the jewels and the dresses, but you didn't have a job. You couldn't really, you could go out, but you couldn't just, like, we can. Like this morning, just sort of put on my stuff and went out for a really long walk at dawn, you know, you couldn't do any of that. It was really, really restrictive that you had a certain, order of things you could do, even dressing in a certain way to do it. When I give talks about historical dress, people are mind boggled by wearing one dress in the morning to do your house or accounts, changing it to go for a walk, changing it again in the afternoon, see if. And Bridgeton and Jane Austen is a lot of people going in and out of houses, because the reality is, for Regency women, life was a lot of going in and out of each of those houses if you were in the upper classes. Yeah. And I know there's been, I've seen on

a few people kind of angling, oh, how women really ran the regency, but they didn't. I mean, they ran to some degree the domestic sphere. And obviously, you know, all the marriage mark stuff, they did have say in that. But I think it's like anything that if your world is reduced down to quite a small thing, then you do have to find a way to become, to sort of make it a dominion. And, you know, Bridgeton runs on gossip, and the whole plot really is fuelled by gossip. And we do see a lot of that in the real regency. And, you know, people absolutely ruined by gossip, sometimes spurious, sometimes true.

Women's lives were in and out of houses, going to balls, running the house. But you couldn't really, you can engage in political conversation, but not in any meaningful way. You know, you couldn't sit in parliament. Some women, so you have later on like Ann Lister got into industry and business, but we know, we know how she was treated. And it was not seen, you weren't seen as normal. Even if you weren't married, you were seen as there was something wrong with you, you were abnormal. So women's lives, although Bridgeton says, look at these beautiful dresses and look at this amazing house, that's your whole life. Married children, run the house and hang out with your mates under certain restrictive conditions.

There's only a few places that you could actually go and meet because that's one of the things they do get right is that, you know, oh, you can't meet someone if you don't have a chaperone and the kind of a young woman, unmarried woman's hysterics about being seen on her own in a garden with a man that she's not married to. That was a very real danger. And part of that meant that, yeah, you would go and promenade up and down the street because that was one of the places that you were allowed to go to.

And you would go at these bowls. So it's boring because it was actually quite boring. Exactly. And you know that women went to each other. You know this whole thing people say, oh, it's like a sewing circle? Yes. That women held sewing circles because it was a chance to actually just go and hang out with your friends. Yeah, and talk and not have to sort of be a fluttering perfect hostess.

It was a pamphlet that I quote from in one of my books. And it talks about being a good wife that you're able to keep the conversation going, but never challenge your husband, never ask questions. So it's just kind of like nod, flutter, be educated to the right level, but not to ask anything awkward. As you quite rightly say, you know, if you were seen out alone with a man who wasn't your husband and that got around, you might never get a husband. Yeah. And if you were ruined, which you could be ruined by the smallest possible thing, your whole, and we've seen this in an earlier, Bridgeton, your whole family could be sure. and ostracize.

Whereas obviously that, you know, the men, it's not a problem. There's cases in history of women being completely ejected and ruined because they've slept with their husband's friend. And the night the divorce goes through and the women are banished. The two guys are sat in the club together, you know, betting on something and having a brandy. So you're a man, you can do anything you like. You're a woman. Not so much.

No. I'll be back with Catherine after this short break. You said there, and that's quite true, especially in series three, I think, is the emphasis on gossip and what gossip is in Bridgeton. And it's all, it comes down to Penelope being revealed as the infamous lady Whistledown who has this scandalous column sheet where she basically spies and everyone and then prints gossip. That in itself is quite interesting because the way gossip works is fascinating. And I have heard it put forward that so women are associated more with gossip than men,

although men can gossip with the best of them. But it is gendered as a more female trait. I have heard it suggested that historically that's because women didn't have as much power. Gossip is a power that they can have. They can't affect change in practical ways, in active ways within the public sphere. Gossip becomes a really valuable currency. I absolutely agree with that.

And as we said just a little while ago, that when you don't have any formalised power and you start to recognise where power exists and how to leverage it. And for high society women, yeah, absolutely gossip was power. And even things like, you know, the Almax vouchers that you had to get into the most fashionable venue in time

you had to have a voucher and it was voted on by this group of women. And it could be taken away, you know, Caroline Lamb lost hers because of gossip. And that's the kind of one of the very few things where we see women's power formalized. It's still attached to the social realm, but it's where we see the currency of gossip as well, that it could actually have a formal impact on you. You know, no al-Max voucher.

It means you're no longer in the real upper class of society. And everyone knows that you've lost it because you, quote, you know, did something wrong. And I think that Bridgeton has missed. something here. So you know we have the whole Penelope and Eloise falling out. Yes. And obviously that's resolved in season three. But in this kind of like season three is very much about

the Colin and Penelope thing. And I feel like it's a shame to me. I feel like they've dropped the ball on the female friendship side a bit. They seem to be slightly moving towards it, I thought, with Lady Danbury who seemed to be defending female friendships. But I did think that that there was a bit of a sellout towards the end where it's like, oh, everyone's married and having babies now

and everyone's really happy, which I know in the 18th in the regency period, that's probably what would have happened. But tell me about the importance of female friendships and why that's so significant, why do you think that they've missed a trick, though? Female friendship was really, it was just really, really important. Because as we've said, you know, being a woman in my era, in the upper class, could be intensely lonely. you were very restricted and very controlled on you you could see.

So as we said with the sewing circles, your friendships with your lady friends were basically like a family. And there were some really, really intense female friendships, you know, to take it to the most obvious example, like the ladies of Langolan, who were obviously more than friends, even though Queen Charlotte didn't acknowledge that. But there were intense female friendships,

and they were also a really, really important way of passing along knowledge. So we've seen earlier in Bridgeton, we saw Daphne getting advice on contraception for my ladies' maid. And there's so much stuff not written down. When I was writing about the real history of Bridgeton, there's so much stuff about things like, how did women find out about sex and periods and contraception and childbirth? and it's not written down because it was passed from woman to woman. And sadly, in a lot of cases, not seem worthy of recording, which is, there's history for you.

Bridgeton is, I can see what it's doing, it's going for the high romance, and it's going for the headline grabbing sex. But in this era, female friendships could be incredibly close. We see it with Queen Charlotte, who was not given to close friendships, but had very tight relationships with some of her lady in waiting. People like Francis Bernie, who were privy to see her really private moments and to write them down so we still have them to learn from. But I wonder if it's almost taken it for granted a bit,

that we know that this is happening because they're all kind of younger out there. And the money stuff is the romance. And I hope with the introduction of Michaela's character, that we might see some of that in the... future before it becomes something more. But it just feels such a shame to me. I really hoped we might see it. And I also hoped we might see it, as you were saying, with some of the older female characters too, because particularly for widows who might not want to get remarried because, you know, you were lucky to get one good husband. You might not get a second.

That was a good one. Those female friendships became very close, familial, in some cases, romantic. And it would just be lovely to expand a bit and see that. We've seen a lot of of the sort of lads in the club and the guys and ladies hanging out. And it would be nice to see something about that closeness between women as well, I think. I hope they do. I think so. Let's talk about gossip scandal sheets because I want to know if they were really a thing. Gossip is so important. And even the word gossip is quite judgy, but everyone gossips. We're gossiping about the past right now. And if you've ever actually spoken to someone who doesn't gossip, I find it really, really bizarre.

When I was a university lecturer, I was the vice chair of the union and I was co-chairing it with this guy called Jeff who was properly old school. Shout out to Jeff, love Jeff. Did not gossip at all. And it really brought me up short. I didn't realize how much I gossiped until I'd be like,

So Jeff, what happened? And he'd just be like, well, you know, confidentiality. Fuck, okay. What? What? What do you mean? Tell me. I'm a nosy bitch. Exactly.

But gossip, like, it's so important. want to know, were there really scandal sheets and gossip sheets in the Regency period? Was there any kind of real lady whistle down? Well, this is one of those yes and no. So actual scandal sheets came later. So things where you just got like, this is who's sleeping with who. They were a little bit later. They're getting to Victorian. But there was an appetite for it, so it was catered for. So the Georgians had a mania for gossip. And it exploded quite a bit earlier, exploded at the end of the 17th century with the end of the licensing act. And the licensing act had regulated the press. So it was supposed to stop seditious libel and treason. And the upshot of it was you couldn't

establish a printing press without permission from the stationers company. And it controlled the press to the extent it was pretty much like one newspaper. So when this ended, newspapers exploded, printing presses were popping up everywhere. And the first thing that we might recognize, as the kind of birth of the scandal sheet was called the Tatler. And it was set up by, it wasn't his real name, but Isaac Bickerstaff. Good name. But it's a good name in it. His real name was Captain Richard Steele, which is not as good, but it's still quite good.

And it was a kind of satirical newspaper. It was also worked on by Jonathan Swift. And it side-eyed the great and the good. So it wasn't all sort of sex like Lady Whistledown is. but it's set out to take people who held themselves up as sort of like bastions of morality and of class and of behaviour and say what they actually got up to on the sly. Okay. So coming after this, you know, you couldn't even publish a newspaper without permission.

It was a bit of an eye-opener. The Tatler also had a column where it would feature people who were to watch out for. You know, like the Queen picks out diamonds in Bridgeton. So it would feature who's new in town. who's worth money, who's come from overseas and he's looking for a husband or wife. And that was followed by something called the female tatler, which we still don't know for sure who set it up. But the pseudonym was Mrs. Crackenthorpe, which I think is potentially where Lady Whistledown might have come from. And she was billed as the lady who knows everything.

her female tatlet was, it was one that said it's like going to educate ladies but it was really like, oh, I'd be weird kind of thing. And it looks like it was probably set up by some of the people behind the actual tatel, so it's probably actually men. But it was interesting, again, that they chose, if it was men, they chose a woman to sort of hide behind for this more gossipy version.

So we're not necessarily commenting on politicians now. It's gossip, therefore it's a woman. Yeah. And this was followed on by, the Tetate, which was a column in town and country, where they'd tell a sort of love story, but omit the names. And what was interesting is all this happened at exactly the right moment for the rides of the coffee houses.

People would gather in coffee houses, then papers would be there, and they could spend all day just talking back and forth. And even though they omit the names, they do it in that really cool 18th century way where it's obvious who it is. We know who it is. Exactly. So when it talks about the Duke of Cumberland,

sneaking off with Lady Grosner to a pub and he's wearing like a really bad wig. It'll say like the D of C land, figure it out with Lady Jeevesner. And what I really like as well is it wasn't, it was kind of democratic. So obviously literacy wasn't that widespread. But if you couldn't read, you could still go to a print shop. And in every pane of glass in the print shop window, there would be a print which were basically caricatures that could be quite obscene, which. cured the gossip of the time.

And it's kind of like your Instagram grid. You could just stand and look at, you know, 16 caricatures and know who's doing what to who. Oh, I love that. I love that. And it's such an evocative image that for me that it didn't matter what level of society you were at. You still could have access to that same gossip. And nine times out of ten, it would be the upper echelons of society that that gossip was really nailing, which must have been really nice as you're sort of, you know,

struggling and grabbing your way through life, fighting for everything you've got to go, well, you know those people seem to have everything. At least we can have pointed out. We still do that today. We still, that's like through celebrity gossip magazines. They're basically the new ton, aren't they, that we're all gossiping about that.

And what I really like, I suppose, if you look through and I know you love you love the issue, you know when you go through the old newspapers and you look for one thing, but then it's like two days of past. And the stuff that they report on that you would, you know, it's virtually no liable. Everyone's saying what they like. Say what you like. Yeah.

It's brilliant. It's just really entertaining. And it makes, to me, it makes it feel really current. It makes that era feel incredibly now, yet it's recognisable because we still do it. Even though it's harder to do now because of the law is a lot tighter. We still do it, but I think they did it better. I made some notes of things that I didn't think were realistic for some reason, even though you could have done all of it.

I think this was just like I was in hour four and I've gone a bit cross-eyed. One of the things that I noted was that there's a bit where Penelope reveals how much money she's made from selling her gossip columns, right? And she says it's about 10,000. She says it's more than 10,000 pounds. I think that that would be round about 5 million pounds. today's money. It's too much.

I have got a weekly column and I don't have five million pounds. I don't know if she would have made that much money from a gossip column. I don't know. I don't see how she could have made that much money from it. No. What they seem to have missed again is this whole sort of coffee house culture

that quite often you'd have one person who had it and you'd all sit around and read it. So, you know, we wouldn't all go out and buy it. So I think you're right with that. I think that they just, I think they want to make like a woman of memes, which obviously was quite difficult to be in that era. But I think they've over-egged the means she has.

They also have, so she's married to Colin at this point, and she says, I've got, I've got £10,000, it's my money. Fucking isn't any more, love. It's not. I'm afraid. That is not your money anymore. No, that's his money now. And if he dies, it's still not her money

because it will be placed in the care of a male relative, or if she hasn't got one, a male son. solicitor and he'll decide what is her money and what stays safe in the bank. It's not her money anymore. No. That's that's not her money. And I was going to ask, what did you think about the big lady whistledown reveal where she's basically invited the queen? I don't think the queen would give a shit about a gossip column personally. I have a note on this because it annoyed me so much. I've got a note with like a big square. Let it rip. That felt ridiculous to me because whether it's the fictional Queen Charlotte or the real Queen Charlotte,

we've seen them both, but, you know, the fictional Queen Charlotte is more fun than the real one. The real one didn't have much of sense of humour. But the fact that she's now kind of doing it with almost a royal warrant. Bullocks. Yeah, it's ridiculous, particularly because, even though they've not acknowledged him,

the Prince Regent would have been constantly in that column, and that would have really riled Queen Charlotte because he was her, even when he was like a 50-inch waist, he was her little treasure. And it's just ridiculous that she would give it her approval. And I don't really, I almost feel like they might have shot themselves in the foot, you know, kind of like when Mulder and Scully finally got together and the X-Files just was like, yeah. Yes.

I think they've made it, they've really set a challenge to themselves here. Because if she's going to be, you know, gossip columning going forward, and as we now know, she signs it with her own name and the Queen's given her approval, how is she going to get any gossip? How's she going to get any gossip? And surely the point of that is that it was subversive. You cannot have state-approved gossip. That's not how that works.

Now she becomes basically, is she now like a press secretary then? Yeah, now. And like the thing is what is that there's this, if you're not seen it, there's a whole bit where she's basically, she's going to have to reveal if she is all, she's going to get blackmailed. But she calls the queen to her party. Firstly, no, I think the queen would have better fucking things to be doing

with her friends. No chance. But okay. Okay, okay. The queen rocks up because she's got herself on a little Sherlock Holmes mission to find out who this author is for some reason. And then Penelope stands in the middle and she makes this impassioned speech about how I'll be better next time.

And I was just envious of your lives. And I just, I was watching going, bullshit. This is like, no. No, no, I don't like this like retraction of like, oh, I didn't mean to be mean. I didn't. I'm so sorry. Well, at least own it. Own it.

I don't like the fact that we've kind of glossed over the fact that actually she's not a very nice person. Sorry Bridgeton fans, but she's not, she hasn't done very nice things. And I don't think that the queen would have let her off. I don't. And you're quite right. You know, from the very first summoning her to the party, good look with that. Good luck. Right.

Just it felt to me like they sort of ceded something. and it wasn't paying off. So as you said, I don't think she's particularly nice. You know, she's not done right by a friend. She's not done right by a whole bunch of people. And then to sort of sound simpering and saying, you know, I didn't mean it. I didn't, as you say, own it. Say, well, no, you all behaved hypocritically.

None of you're any better than I am. I'm no better than you are. We're all pretty poor in our ways. But yeah, the queen I didn't think would have given a flying task. And if she did, I think she'd be fewer. Yeah. But, you know, we've talked about gossip and scandal and women's place in society. She'd be out of society. She'd be gone. Because nobody would invite her to an event. If you didn't get invited to parties, that was social death. No one's going to invite her to anything. No one's going to tell her anything.

She'd be gone. And I don't know how they're going to make this work in the next series. I think it may prove to be a mistake. I think that it's kind of taken a lot of tension out of the... out of the show because that was kind of really dry unless they've got that it really is just people going to other people's houses

this feels like we know with everyone getting married and having a baby and then this this felt like it was almost like we're done the end of the third yeah it's done but then because it's so proper

it can't be done so what are they going to do do you reckon for series four because apparently that is in the works you and I will be back here another few years we will what do you reckon

I don't the only thing I wonder is are they going to do so, I don't know, and I'm probably going to be dead wrong, but I wonder if they're going to do something where she like takes someone on as like a mentee or something. Yeah. And there's, or someone comes up to challenge her because as I say to me, yeah, you're right. It's the tension.

I don't know how. I don't know how you could write a gossip column when everyone knows who you are. I just don't know. No. I don't know. And also, the things that she wrote about the queen, I'm not sure what the legal rules were at this particular a time. But some of it, like you're questioning the queen directly. Like, treason. Yeah. And that she's now... I don't think they were hanged drawing and

quartering, but that was very serious. Yeah. And that the queen has now given it her approval. So does that mean the queen has tacitly agreed? Yeah, and said that everything you said about me is actually right and true. And it doesn't feel, you know, given the queen that they set up in the Queen Charlotte spin-off, it doesn't feel like the same queen. No. It doesn't feel like the queen we've seen throughout all of this series that suddenly she's going, oh, do you know what, that's pretty cool, I quite like that. No.

Bullocks. She's like, and Penelope's done horrible things. Like, what was it in series one where she outed a woman who was secretly pregnant because she fancied the person she was trying to get with? What a vile, awful thing to do. Don't be standing there, simpriced in front of the queen, going, no, I just really loved all of you so much. And it felt as well, we're probably really upset.

of people with this, aren't we? It was wrapped up really quickly. So one minute, Colin saying, well, I'll marry you, but only because I kind of have to, even though I can never forgive you. And then he was like, actually, you know what, I do love you? Yes. And it felt like something that should have been wrapped up over loads of episodes, and it was wrapped up in 20 minutes.

It did a bit of a Game of Thronesy thing, didn't it? It sort of had, like, characters doing 180s in a single episode where you were a bit like, well, this doesn't make any fucking sense. but we've been pretty critical do you have a favourite part? What did you like about season three? I think it's always very nice to look at, isn't it? It's very pretty.

It's very pretty. Now, I like you, watched hours of it in one system. So when you do that, anything, you start to go, I can't watch any more anything. It's always very pretty. It's very entertaining.

It's a big, glitzy entertainment show. It's a bit of a theme park type show. So it's one of those. I think if you were to watch it, not in one massive four-hour sitting, if you could sort of switch off critical and just look at it and enjoy it as sort of enjoy the view.

It's a good time passer. That sounds like an insult, but it's not. I think that one of the most interesting things to come out of it is not in the plot and it's actually the debate around Nicola Coughlin who's like we've moved away from, oh my God, there are bled. black actors in it to, oh my God, there's a woman in it who isn't a size six. There's a whole

lot of debate around her. And I actually think that's one of the most refreshing and the bravest things to come out of Bridgeton is, because she looked amazing. She looks so good. And I just love it. And I don't want to say, oh, like, you know, there's normal women on screen because she's hot as hell, but she's not super skinny. Like the woman's got some flesh on her bones. And there she is, getting them out and looking amazing. I think that's definitely the best. I do. And I like that she's not, you know, because we have long seen that when characters are cast with women that aren't a size eight, that the bigger the woman, they're either the villain or the comedy relief. You know, someone like Hattie Jakes, who was incredibly attractive and sexy,

but was always the kind of like comedy matron with the tuba playing. Yeah. And it's really nice to see. And when they did, you know, the infamous mirror scene, I was thinking, you know, we're going, oh, we're going down that old. It kind of went to that old chest and it like he's going to say, oh, look at yourself, you're beautiful despite being. It didn't quite go there. So thank you, Bridget's not doing that. But I also agree with you.

It was really refreshing to see. And it's been very interesting to see the press trying to cover it. And not make themselves sound like the dicks they are. Exactly that, trying to cover it without actually saying what they want to say. Because we all know what that. You know, to just say, oh, she said, what's a refreshing new talent? But yeah, and I think she's been really good. You know, she's hopefully going to have a good career ahead of her

because it's very, very entertaining to watch, I think. And like you say, like, looked amazing, looks amazing in the costumes, looks amazing out of the costumes, and a fantastic performance. So, yeah, I totally agree. Agreed completely. So finally, we've never done this on Betwixt before, but if you had to give it a mark out of 10,

what would be your Bridgeton, Catherine Kerrason, Marks out of 10 review? Oh, my goodness. I don't know what we're basing this on. Historical accuracy, just enjoyment, the amount of sex scenes. There was quite a lot of gay going on with this one as well, which I appreciated. But what would you give it overall? I'm going to give it two.

I'm going to say if I was not two out of ten, I'm going to give it two. If I was watching it just to be entertained and I didn't watch it in a four-hour Stint after I've been in a traffic jam, I'd probably give it a seven because it's very entertaining to look at. But I'm going to give it a six because I feel like it feels stretched. It feels like the last season of the Crown did as well. They feel like they've not got enough to fill the time that they've filled. Brilliant. Catherine Curzon, you have been amazing.

Thank you so much. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? They can find me on my website, which is catherine curzon.com. Or they can find me on Twitter, which is probably the best place, by searching for Madam Gilflet or Catherine Curzon or just frocking fabulous. Any of those will find me. Thank you so much. And I guess we will do this again for the next one.

I'm sure we will. I think we've got many more to come. Let's hope so. Thank you for coming on today. You've been marvellous. Thank you. Thank you for listening. And thank you so much to Catherine for joining me for this final part in our real Bridgeton mini-series. And it's not just on this podcast.

I've been looking into the realities of this period. Oh no. I've delved into the glorious Georgians over on the history hit website for a two-part documentary series. You'll see me removing those beautiful Bridgeton rose-tinted glasses and exploring the gritty underbelly of sex, drugs and rock and roll in Georgian Britain. Both episodes are live right now and explore the reality of sex in the Georgian age. Who, when, where and how were people doing it?

Was it just like it was with the beautiful dukes and duchesses and lords and ladies of Bridgeton? Nah, was it, L? Click the link in the description and you can sign up for a free 14-teens. trial to watch it right now. Won't cost you a farthing. And as always, if you want us to explore a subject or if you just wanted to say hello, then please email us at betwixt at historyhit.com.

We've got episodes on everything from the sex life of Henry VIII to the origins of patriarchy, all marching your way. This podcast was edited by Tom Delagi and produced by Stuart Beckworth. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again Betwixt the Sheets,

The History of Sex Scandal in Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.