Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - The Real Joan of Arc

Episode Date: March 8, 2024

How did a peasant girl go on to lead French armies at the age of 17?To mark International Women's Day on March 8th, Kate's joined by Eleanor Janega, co-host of sister podcast Gone Medieval, to explore the life of the formidable Joan of Arc.How did her visions of saving France from the English play a part in her life? Why was it significant that she wore men's clothes and led armies? And what's her legacy today?This episode was edited and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.Eleanor's book, The Once and Future Sex, is out now in paperback.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Get a subscription for £1 per month for 3 months with code BETWIXT sign up at https://historyhit/subscription/You can take part in our listener survey here. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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On the Sun-Kissed Fields, the Loire Valley in 1429, a battle is taking place. Standing out amongst the French ranks is Joan of Arc. She's 17. She's 17 years old. What in the Mouse Gatier Madness is this?

But there she is. Who she's around today might be at a Taylor Swift concert, is leading the French army. And what's more, they are inspired by her. She is devising battle tactics for them. She is kicking ass. And while the English longbowmen rain down their arrows, Joan rallies the French troops. She's carrying her own banner and sword, and she's wearing custom-made armour, echoing the prophetic vision that Merlin was said to have that a virgin in armour would save France. The campaign to secure French sovereignty away from the hands of the English continued after this battle with Joan at its helm. She was formidable.

She was on a holy mission, the original mission from God, but at what cost? What do you look for a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect confidence of whatever my body. by just turning enough and pushing the fun. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, I'm beautiful done.

Goodness has nothing to do with it, Dary. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. For those of you listening on this episode's release date, which is Friday the 8th of March, happy International Woman's Day! And what better way to celebrate that than taking you back to medieval

France, when the frankly terrifying, Joan of Arc rose from rural France to lead its armies against the English. And what better companion could we have to take us back to this fascinating world than the beloved friend of the show, the one the only? That's right, it's Eleanor Yanaga. My pal and co-host of our sister podcast Gone Medieval. She's so much fun to have around. What visions foretold Joan of Arc's life and work? Seriously. How did a teenage girl come to be leading an army? And what does our reaction to her story tell us about ourselves? Swords at the ready betwixters.

Let's do this. I'm laughing already. Hello. And welcome back to betwixt the sheets. It's only Eleanor Janager making me giggle already. How are you doing? I'm well. I live here now.

So, you know. I think you do. Just got you in the betwixt broom cupboard. Just get you out occasionally. you can go and do your own podcast and we can ask your questions. Exactly. But we should say happy International Women's Day because this podcast is going out on International Women's Day.

That's right. There are for all the women's. Thank you. Right? From one international woman to another. Absolutely. We love it. International womanness.

And we're here to talk about a rather fabulous woman. It's Joan of Arc. Oh, isn't she good? Your girl. I love her though. I'm such a sucker for Joan of Arc. I'm sorry. Like it's almost, you know, like one of these things where it's twy almost to like Joan of Arc, but I don't care.

I don't care. Like, of course I love her. Because of course I love, you know, the girl riding around in armor who's telling the Defant-France what to do. Of course I love her. You know, like what's not to like, frankly, unless you are English for Burgundian, in which case you can do some hating. This is another one of those. Just once from Betwicks. Just once.

I'd like to have a story where the English are actually the heroes. That'd be nice, but we're not, again, here we are. We are. The English are the baddies in this story as well. And to be fair, they were pretty bad. But Joan's story, even though, like you said, it's a bit tweeter like Joan of Arc, like when you actually look at her story, it is bonkers. It's balls to the walls, impressive.

I often forget, she was 17. 17 years old. I didn't trust a 17-year-old to do my eyeliner at the boots makeup counter. What the hell is a 17-year-old doing leading an army? My God. It's, you know, which is really testament to her strength of character, right? Because, and it's not just that she's a 17-year-old. She's a 17-year-old peasant girl, right?

It's not like she's from some noble household. Yeah, from the asshole and over. Yeah, like she's from Donoami, where you have not been, unless you have gone there specifically because you're a Joan of Arkstan, right? And it's this kind of like little northern French town. Her dad works 50 acres. You know, he's kind of an important peasant. Like he's one of the village officials, but that kind of like goes in turns, you know.

She's like one of several children. She does normal peasant girl stuff, except one day she wakes up and it turns out that the saints are talking to her, which is interesting. The thing that I'm, I was surprised about Joan of Arc, it's not actually her name. So we could start with that one is she wouldn't have introduced herself as, hello, my name is Joan of Arc, would she? No, it's just, you know, Joan, right? Like, that's, because that's the thing is it's like, you, you kind of get a name afterwards, right? And, you know, surnames are not really in fashion at the time, unless you are one of the sort of people

that you're from a royal house or a noble house, right? And then you have a certain name. But otherwise, you know, peasants are just kind of like, oh yeah, that's, you know, Joan from down by the brook. Yeah. You know, so she's kind of like Joan, the daughter of Jacques. When was she born? Do we know when she was born?

We are not exactly sure on the date, which is rather the done thing again at this time because it's like when you are a peasant, you don't really know. We think she was born around 14, 12. maybe, but that's basically based on her death date, which is 1431 and the fact that we think she's about 17 at the time. But people are a lot less hung up on what your exact age is then. So again, it's one of these things where unless you are a member of the nobility or, you know,

a really special person, nobody goes and writes down their birthday at the time because it's just not how they think. But we're pretty sure 1412 is the answer. So she's born in Dom Ramee, which is probably a lot nicer than my describing it as the asshole of nowhere. I just wished to emphasise her non-noble origins. So before we get to these visions that she starts to have, can you paint a bit of a picture as what is going on in France at the time? Like she's born into a little village and, you know, she's doing this stuff, but like a sort of a political stage, what is happening at this time? Yeah, it's fucked. Okay, so right. So we are now at what will become the tail end of the Hundred Years War,

which as the name indicates, has been going on for quite some time. You know, so it started in the 14th century. Here we are in the 15th century, right? And basically, the area around Joan in particular has been completely devastated by successive waves of English invasion, right? Like, if you're in kind of Northern France, it's like, oh, they're here again in our backyard, right? this has completely devastated the economy because it's very difficult to get the harvest in or whatever again if there are English people in your backyard you know burning it all down and chasing your pick around right sorry about that yeah I know right that's it's your fault Kate personally I feel so much inherited guilt about this it's weird isn't it I will say that I do think fundamentally the English kind of have a pretty good claim to the throne but it's sort of like leave it out a hundred years later whatever like move on with your life So basically, like, France itself is also pretty politically unstable. So the king at the time, who is, it's another Charles surprise, it's Charles the 7th. And he's got problems with mental illness.

So he often has to kind of delegate power to other people. So his brothers, who were the Duke of Orleans and the Duke of Burgundy, are usually like fighting over who gets to kind of take over in this point in time. Now, Duke of Burgundy there, that's like a really big deal because Burgundy as in area is incredibly rich, right? And they've got a ton of power. Okay. Eventually, this kind of splits into a couple of fashions. There's the Arminiac side, which is kind of like the people who go with the Duke of Lurlion, and then there's the Burgundy

inside, right? It's all alcohol themed. Yeah, it is, which is great. I like that. So if you can just remember Arminiac and Burgundy, you're good to go. And Arminiac is the side that Joan is on because she likes to go hard. All right. She doesn't have any time. And so and Dommermi is aligned with the Armaniacs, but it's kind of close to Burgundy. So that's a difficult position to be in. So meanwhile, also within the king's family, the king had four sons just go die, die, die, die, and it's like, oh, okay, right? So suddenly you've got like this new daffant and he was not supposed to be the king, right? He's sort of like fifth in line and you're like, oh, hey, hello.

So anyway, over in England, Henry V, is looking at this and he's like, well, let's give it another go, right? Things seem pretty weak, right? So Jones's relationship to this is probably going to be like, oh, they're here stealing our cattle again, which is something that she talks about having experience, like, especially they, like, I guess they are, they're kind of like dairy people. And so their cows keep getting stolen. And, like, that's hard. That's tough. It's tough. Like the entire thing, everybody's doing it pretty tough in France at the time. Can I ask like a real start question just for anyone that isn't show up? Like, what is a do fan? That's a fancy way of saying Prince.

Next in line, basically. So, okay, so we've got the Dauphin, wasn't supposed to be the Dauphin, kind of by accident. France is looking pretty shaky on account of the king being mad, all of the princes dying, and they're being repeated invasions. What happens to Joan to take her from, oh, I'm growing up on a dairy farm, and she must have been about like 13 or something at the time. Tell me about these visions. What happens to put her on the course for leading a French army?

Yeah, okay. So like 13 year old Joan has her first vision and her first vision is of St. Michael the Archangel. Now, St. Michael the Archangel, this is one of like the ultimate boss angels and also one of the most important saints for people in the medieval period. Mickelmiss, which you may have heard of, is kind of like a giant feast holiday that you have in September, which is the equivalent of their harvest festival. Everyone really dig St. Michael. And St. Michael is also like the patron saint of warriors all. oftentimes because he is the guy who fought with Lucifer when Lucifer rebelled against God and he's the one who sent all of the demons down to hell. He is both the patron saint of D'Amouin and a defender of France as well. So this is like big symbolic stuff for her. And he's like, hey girl, guess what? You are going to alleviate the problems that France is having. Now, this is kind of helped by the fact that

There's also been like a legend going around that has been attributed to Merlin, which, you know, probably not, but hey, that's chill. That says that there is going to be a young virgin girl like, why is she got to be a virgin, but okay, who is going to come and save France, right? And so Joan is like, oh, word. This sort of feeds into these legends she already knows. So later on, it starts off with St. Michael. But she starts also having these visions anytime the church bells ring. And she's also having them from St. Margaret and St. Catherine. And they are also very, very important medieval saints.

They're part of the holy helpers. There's a group of 14 saints that medieval people really like. And they are both virgin girl martyrs who are killed because they stood up to Roman persecution. Right. And they talk to her. They don't appear to her in front of her. eyes, they talk to her. And she makes a vow of virginity to them, which is rather the done thing at the time, right? So this kind of messes things up for her in the village because like there's a

kid who shows up and says that she was supposed to marry him. And like they have to go to court over this. And Joan is like, my parents said, I was going to marry you. I didn't do it. So whatever. And now I've like made a promise to the saints. So and like she kind of gets let off the hook for it. Right. Okay. This is kind of an interesting thing because it shows us that she kind of has some sort of understanding of the legal mechanisms that are going on around her and how to play them, right? But, you know, very specifically from a religious point of view.

So she's pretty clued in, but it's a lot of chutzpah for a 13 year old girl. I will say that, you know. Jesus, is it ever, right? Mm-hmm. Like, that's incredibly impressive. And I'm slightly distracted by your question of like, why do they always have to be virgins who are going to come and rescue people?

But I just suddenly thought, because it wouldn't have the same cachet if the legend was a great big fire-breathing whore is going to come and say it. You know what? And she could. I'm like, different legend. I would love that.

But yeah, you're exactly right. And this is a thing that Joan starts calling yourself at this point, prepare for some slaughtered French. But she calls herself Jean-la-Pussel. which means like Joan the maid or Joan the Virgin. And she starts like specifically saying, she's a brand. Now she's got a brand.

Like now she's got a name. So that's the thing that you would call her basically from this point onward. Basically Joan the Virgin. Yeah. And she's like, this is not an insult. This is good, right? Was there a counterpoint? Was there like a Sally the slut who also thought she was going to say France?

But nobody really gave a fuck about Sally. because we're all... You know, I stand Sally. I... Shout out, girl. Yes, you are. You know. So, right.

But Jonah's got a brand. The virginity is not only a defense in court about I don't want to get married. It's playing into this prophecy. This is a brand that's really important. She's saying she's a virgin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's like, because of the prophecy, she's not going to get anywhere if she doesn't play that out

because that's what everyone is expecting from her. And so she's kind of got this brand established. You know, she's going to court to prove herself, blah, blah, blah, blah. By the time she hits around 16, she's, like, ready to take it to the big leagues. And it's hilarious because she like basically goes and marches up to a garrison commander in 1428 and is like, hey, here to say France. To have been a fly on the wall. Right. And doesn't get really very far, basically.

She gets set back and like, guess what? The English attack again. Don't remember me is sacked again. And like at this point in time, there's now this new crucial thing that's happened, which is the Burgundians now ally with England. So the Burgundians are really close to Don't Marmee. And they basically come sack it, set it on fire. All the crops are devastated.

All the town people have to run away. And like, so this is just a snapshot of what Joan herself is dealing with, but it's part of the larger French situation, right? The English who are allied now with the Burgundians have gone and like seized control of various places. So they control Paris, which is like the capital. They also control rum, which is where you have to go to be crowned if you are the French king, basically. So it's the equivalent of controlling Westminster Abbey, right? And we don't have like a king of the French who's been crowned.

You just have another Charles, who's Charles the Delphonse at this point in time. the English are kind of like running riot everywhere. And you need this religious ceremony that you have done in Rome to indicate that you have divine favor, right? And that God likes you and thinks that you should be king. So they are in trouble. And so Joan is like, okay, clearly this can't go on. She's having all these visions. And now the visions are like, you've got to go get the da font.

And it's like, this is your thing. So she marches on back to go like find the people. And this time the soldiers are like, yeah, you know what? I'm ready for everything, right? We're out of option. Sure, this is a 16 year old girl here. She says that she's here to help. Fine, whatever, right?

And so a couple of soldiers start being like, oh, this may be is the girl that everyone is talking about. And then she kind of like gets booted up the chain eventually. And she gets to meet with the Duke of Lorraine. And basically, the Duke of Lorraine is like very impressed by her. And the fact that there's all these knights who are like, no, this is a real deal. Let's fucking go. Right.

And he's like, okay, well, I'm going to take you then to the daffant. And now she's got like a redneux of six shoulders who are like going with her. And now she's 17. And it's at this point that she puts on men's clothes and she goes off to meet the court. And the putting on men's clothes is a really big deal here because basically what it's showing is that, you know, when she's wearing armor, when she's wearing male, it's showing that she is dedicating her life to this kind of. martial pursuit very specifically, and she's taking herself out of the ordinary expectations for women at the time. So this is interesting because it kind of shows us that, you know, on its own, like the prophecy, the personal belief, talking to spirits, that's not enough. She needed

those nights to say, yeah, okay, I believe you. And, you know, you need to kind of have this support from rich guys essentially. And, you know, the men's clothing, that's cool. But it's also, you know, one of the things that that's doing here is, you know, men are taken more seriously. So if you behave a bit more like a man, then, you know, you're going to be taken more seriously, right? She's not saying she is a man. And we know, at no point in time does she say that she is. There are some people who kind of like adopt her as trans vanguard. And I'm not against that necessarily. It's just that we don't have anything from her being like, yeah, bro. But I think it's interesting. And there are some conversations around that. But, you know, she's mostly like, I'm a girl the whole time.

So, you know, I got to take her out of word. Yeah. You know. What I'm trying to, like, get a handle on. I don't know if there's, if there's anything in the evidence that would even tell us this bit, because there was clear gaps in this story. It's like, I totally get that, all right, so she's 17. She's knocking around some armor.

The fact that there's this prophecy and then suddenly rumors start to swirl about who she is of like, oh my God, and then the big wigs get involved. But I can't help wonder what was she doing in the interim? Like, before the big wigs. she just like hanging around outside castles with a sword just going way. This is one of the incredibly frustrating things about medieval sources because you can go ask her and then that gets written down. We know a lot about her life basically because after her arrest, she tells people about it. But there's a whole lot of a scene missing, right?

And it's kind of like she is sort of doing the ordinary things that ordinary girls would do. But at the same time, at this point, like it's gone far enough that everyone is like, this is it, this is her. So the local peasants are kind of like banding behind her and this is how the knights come on board. So she's kind of like building consensus, I guess, if that makes sense. And I mean, allegedly talking to the saints rather a lot. So that's nice. Yeah, that helps.

So there's this quite famous meeting where she finally gets an audience with Mr. Dofenwa. What happens there? Yeah, so basically, like she gets to go meet him. And he's kind of like, well, you know, again, I'll take any help that I can get. But you can't just show up in front of the prince and be like, hey, I was sent by God, right? Like, people are a little more choosy than that. So they get together a bunch of prominent theologians, including like the Archbishop of Ram and like a bunch of guys from the University of Paris, you know, the university basically being a theological

one at the time. And they like sit there and kind of like test her for about three weeks. So, you know, just making sure that she's not being heretical. So just like making sure she's got her theology, right? Like making sure that she isn't just like some weirdo while and out. And so basically like she gets asked all these things like, okay, so like what dialect are the voices speaking to her? And then hilariously she's like super sassy with it. And like there's this guy from limousin. And she says to him, it's a better one than yours.

Oh, Burt. Burt. Burt on the limousine dialect. Yeah. I understand what that is, but I love it. She's sexy, right? That's cute. That's a testy teenager, isn't it?

Whatever. Yeah, exactly. And then they're like, and I see you're wearing men's clothing. And basically she's like, yeah, explains her deal. You know, she's a warrior sent by God and this is what's up. And then a council of women does a physical virginity check on her. Which is gross and unscientific. Can't really prove anything, can it?

No. So, but they do it anyway. And she's like, yeah, bra, check me out. Like, you can definitely tell that I'm a virgin or whatever. And it's like, okay, cool. Nice. And at this point, they're like, you know what? She seems to have her theology in line.

Like, we can't actually get her on doing anything wrong. And at this point in time, the Duffan is like, you're on board and he makes her suit of plate armor. And then she does a girly thing where she makes her own banner. and they give her the special sword that had been under the altar at a church of St. Catherine, because that's one of the chicks who talks to her. And this is when she's like, fully fledged, the idea of Joan that you have comes into being. So here she is in her armor. She's got her little thing.

And this is, I think, very cool. I like this. You know, so it just shows how canny she is and sassy. Like, she is a teenage girl, but she's like the super driven one. and I think that's neat. I think that's very neat. We back with Eleanor and Joan after this short break. What we've got here is really a young girl who says the saints are talking to her.

It's a bit of a myth that in the medieval period, that would have been enough that everyone would have gone, are they really? What are they saying? Oh my God, there are actually quite a lot of tests. But would it be right in thinking that when the Dofan kind of gave her some armour and went welcome on board, was he thinking of her as more of being like a mascot

for the French army? Did he have actual intentions to go, here you go, please go and lead the troops with all of your battle experience? Like, what did he envision in his head? The mascot, I think, is really the way to see it at first. So it's like, basically, you send her out on the field and it's like, hey, guys, it's the virgin from all of the legends, and she's wearing armor, and she's got her little flag.

So the armor is kind of necessary because she gets wounded repeatedly, right? She is really good at showing up at wherever the fighting is most intense. It's like, think of her like a cheerleader. She's like, rah, rah, kill them, guys. You know, like she's not actually at killing people, but she is there. And so this is interesting because she does a great job of being a mascot. And then people start asking her to consult on things. So this is kind of right around when you start getting gunpowder weapons.

And oftentimes people will be like, hey, Joan. you've got a telephone to God, where should we put the artillery, for example? And like the artillery is kind of like one of these things that really helps the French in some of their fight. So everyone seems like, oh, cool, right? And her thinking here and the fact that she's done well, this might be down to the fact that she's kind of an outsider, right? She's not a member of the nobility. She doesn't have these ideas about chivalrous warfare, like the nobility does. Because, you know, up until this point, warfare is really kind of like,

a tag for rich guys. Like, people die. I'm not saying that they don't. But your ultimate aim is if you are some rich guy noble, you want to go find another rich guy noble and you want to kidnap him. And then you want to ransom him and make a bunch of money, right? And Joan doesn't care about that. She's like, I want to kill English people.

That's what she's into, right? So she wants to win battles. So she's like, guys, increase your attacks, go harder. And that is not something that you would ordinarily see a lot of no way. do because they basically have another intention when they go to war, right? And so this makes like a huge impact, right? And we have witnesses who say, good quote here, I swear that the English, 200 of whom had previously been sufficient to root 800 or 1,000 of the Royal Army became so powerless that 4 to 500 soldiers and men at arms could fight against what seemed to be the

whole power of England. So she has this influence. It's like it really inspires people to go for her. And the English are scared of her. They're scared of this girl. Eleanor, had she had any military training at all or any training in how to fight, like, at or anything, even level one white belt karate, nothing at all? No. That's, and that's the thing, is that it's very, very interesting because, like, is that a help here? Or, you know, as everyone kind of said, they're like, oh, this is miracle. And that gets her kind of more and more esteem and more renown. So she kind of keeps moving up in the world as a result of this. And so this is, this basically culminates with her pushing.

And she's like, the thing that we need to do is we need to get the Delphonse to Rom. He needs to get crowned. Let's fucking go. Right. Like no more pussyfooting around. Like this is the thing that absolutely needs to happen. And they basically just end up plowing. up to Ram and getting the Defong crown. And so now, Bada bribing, Bada boom, you got another King Charles because there haven't been enough King Charles yet. Getting shit done. Yeah.

And she's like, stop doing all this other stuff. Like the ceremonies matter. Like the religious parts of this matter. And being able to say that you have been crowned, the king of France, you know, at Rom, that's the thing God wants. And then you're going to be able to do that. Right. So basically, she starts getting taken seriously more or less around January.

1429 and it's the 16th of July 1429 that they enter one and the king gets crowned. So this is like in a matter of six months, she's going from getting chased away to being a member of the court like she is at the coronation and her family is like recognized. And also very cutely, the king as a gift, he says that Don't want to mean doesn't have to pay taxes because he's like, thanks. and that holds until the French Revolution. Oh, wow. Oh, wow.

Yeah. That's cute, right? I like it. I like it. That is cute. She's kind of like Captain Tom in a way. Yeah. Talking about.

No. Oh, no, it's true. I hear me out. It's a time of national crisis. No one's sure what the hell is going on. And then suddenly this figurehead emerges from nowhere that no one saw come in. We don't really know what's going on. But suddenly everyone's behind him.

And there is a sense of like, come on, we can do it. we could do it. But then kind of rather like the Captain Tom legacy. Oh dear. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then it turns out. Doesn't last, does it?

Yeah. Because here's the thing. Like all of the things that really made her special, once you start kind of like getting out on the upper hand, these suddenly become to be seen as a bit of a hindrance, right? Because it's like, well, now King Charles is King Charles. He's not the Dauphan anymore. You know, there's still a lot of English people around,

but he's like, guys, we got to focus up and we are going to play some politics here. And Joan is like, I am a peasant girl wearing armor. What is politics? Right? Like, she does not have time for parlaying. And so she's basically like, no, guys, attack, attack, attack.

And like, she makes this big play that they should go to Paris and attack Paris. And like, gets shot with a crossbow for. her troubles. And basically, this does not work. They do not take Paris. And at this point in time, the people at the University of Paris start whispering against her. Now, again, University of Paris, this is like a big theological place. And because Paris is under the control of the Burgundians in English, they start being like, oh, she's really bad. And oh, she's not actually, you know, she's being a heretic. She isn't really set by God. And her. And her, inability to take Paris is then shown as like, oh, see, she's not really favored, right? So it's a real

double-edged sword. It's all well and good. She's on a knife edge, didn't she? Yeah. So if it starts working, then you'll be taken seriously. But if it stops working, what happens then? And so she very specifically thinks of herself, like almost as a crusader. She sees herself as someone who needs to be doing ongoing religious warfare. And that's the thing that you do. Like, she wants to see, people pay for their crimes is what she sees them as, right? You know, Charles really takes his foot off the gas as it were. The Burgundians are kind of like debating with him to take back towns that Charles had captured.

And he's like, yeah, okay, like if it keeps you happy, I don't really feel like fighting. And Joan is like, why are you giving these liberated towns back to the enemy? I don't understand it. And at this point in time, she just like goes off peace and she gets an army of volunteers. and it's like we are going to go attack people. And a lot of people are down for the cause because they kind of like agree with her. Right. They're all volunteers.

But then she ends up getting taken. So this is like a year later, 23rd of May, 1430. She attacks the Burgundians and gets captured. And this is like, that's it. But having said that, she gets treated in this really particular way that shows you how important she actually is. Okay. Right?

Because ordinarily, as I say, in warfare, what you would. do if you catch someone like Joan, you go to the king, got your girl, like, come give us some money and you can have her, right? That's the ordinary way that warfare would work. But the English are like, you know, basically the little devil on their shoulder. And they're like, no, give her to us. And they pay the ransom. And they're like, look, we will give you what the king of France would have given. And you need did give her to us, right? Well, could the former Dauphinwa, the new king, could he have stepped in there and done a bit more? Could he have said, I want Joan back at any, is there a sense that he, because clearly she's becoming a bit of a liability. The king's fallen in this trap that a lot of people

fall into, which is when you've got like an absolute hell-raising rebel person on your side, in your corner, that's great, but you can't control them. Could he have got her back, or did he just quietly? Yeah, I think that he could have got her back. He could have done more, you know, he could have gone to the Burgundians and said how much have the English paid to you. You know, I'll give you more than that. Like, come on, be reasonable here. Yeah. But, you know, it kind of suited him.

I don't think that he thought it would go this far, to be fair. I think that he probably thought like, yeah, they're going to imprison her. But, you know, like, imprisonment since she was a member of the king's court, a lot of the time, that's like, you have to stay in this castle and he got treated pretty all right. So he's kind of probably thinking, oh, this is nice. I don't have, you know, this peasant girl yelling at me to go attack people anymore. But I don't think that he thought I would come down to her being burnt as a heretic, right? So I don't.

All right, we'll give him that. So the English paid a ransom and she's effectively sold to the English by the Burgundians. And she then gets sent to Rouen. Ruon being the capital of Normandy, the English being Norman, right, for quite some time now. So the, like the English control Normandy and Rouen. and she gets kind of put in the tower there. She's very, very behind enemy lines. But she probably doesn't really, you know, know that it's going to go this far.

And what happens is there's this, the real baddie. Like if it was a panto, everyone would go boo, boo. But there's this guy, the bishop Pierre Caution, and he's from Beauvais. And he is like the batty. So he's the one who negotiates the transfer of her from the Burgundians to the English. And he sets up this super off the books, trial, quote unquote trial that you're supposed to do. So he's like, we're putting her on trial for heresy. The thing about this is there are rules for putting someone on trial for heresy and even

more if you're going to do it to a woman, right? So the first thing that you have to do is you have to establish that she is quote unquote infidious. That's a technical term. It's like a legal term, right? And it has to mean that everybody around understands that she's a heretic. And that is obviously not true. Like, sure, people who are super, super partisan are calling her a heretic in order to take away from her. But French people don't think so. It's like Burgundians and English people think so, right? And like, also, she's been examined by a series of bishops and scholars. Yes. So that the opposite is true. Technically, legally, she is absolutely fine. Also, if she was going to be put on trial for heresy, you have to go up the top and you need to go to the Archbishop of Rwine.

And he's the superior of the bishop Couchon. The Archbishop of Rom already examined her and said this was fine, right? So this is like back channeling middleman stuff. And you know, this is boring legal points. But that's what the medieval church is. The medieval church is a legal mechanism. And there are ways that you're supposed to do things. This is admin bullshit.

But technically it should have saved her, right? Because the Archbishop of Rome would then have to say, okay, now I'm going to the papacy. And I'm going to say, we are doing. we're doing a heresy trial, right? And also, because Jones, a woman, she should have been imprisoned by other women. You usually hand her over to some nuns, right? Because everyone sort of understands that you're in a risky position

if you're a woman and you're being held by a bunch of men. She's held by the Duke of Bedford, which, like, if you're on trial for heresy, you're not even held, you're not held by a fucking Duke, right? You're held by the church. And you're certainly not held by just like some, So, like, absolutely nothing that's going on here is respectable. And they essentially, like, question her for yonks.

And she's real sassy with it still. They kind of, like, tell her the way that she's in trouble. And, you know, it's all wrong. And she's like, you can ask me things, but I'm not going to tell you anything. Go ahead. But, like, I'm not going to give you what you want. One of the sticking points in the trial then ends up being that in Tomami, they had a vibe going, all right?

where there was a tree that people used to hang out at. And it was kind of said that fairies gathered there. Off to a strong start. Yeah. It's a super common thing that happens, especially in peasant communities in the Middle Ages. Like, they've just got like some old vibes, right? So you would sometimes have like a really cool tree or a cool grove or something like that.

And you'd be like, yeah, it's kind of holy, whatever. Like, you know, Shinto vibes. It's nice. And they are like, you go into the fairy tree and were you worshiping demons there? And she's like, look, my girlies and I used to go there and make garlands of flowers that we would put around our lady of Dormarmi in the church. But like I wasn't worship in a tree or whatever, right?

So this becomes like a big way of being like, see, see, she was worshiping demons, right? And it's like, you know, she's just an ordinary peasant girl. This is kind of the things that peasants do. Right. So again, her peasantness is kind of one of the issues. I mean, surprise, surprise. They bring 12 articles of accusation against her. But again, super off the books, if you were going to bring articles of accusation against

a heretic, you would need to give that to the papacy. They give it to the University of Paris, who are loyal to Burgundy and England, right? Here's that heretic that everybody wanted. So they basically make her swear under duress that she's going to accept all these things and she's not going to do anything. So they basically say, you can't wear men. clothing. You can't say that you speak to angels. You're not allowed to take up arms, right? So, which is an interesting one because, like, it's kind of saying that dressing in men's clothes is a form

of heresy, which, like, citation needed, right? It's just... Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Just don't have anyone representing her. Does she have a lawyer? Does she have anyone? And she's supposed to. Like, again, in a real heresy trial, she would have someone who defends her and she's got nothing. She's got absolutely nothing. So it's just her. And so she says, okay, fine. But, like, the thing about these articles is that once they're brought out, if she goes against them, then that means she can be turned over to a secular court to be killed. And she agrees to them at first. And then apparently the angels show up and are like, stop being a little bitch. Like, don't do this, right? So she kind of like calls everybody back. And she's like, guys, sorry, got word from the angelic voices, says here,

you guys suck, France number one. And I'm wearing men's clothes again. And so, like, they probably knew she would do this and this means essentially that she can now be killed because she's gone back on what it was it. Yeah. It was a complete trap, right? And they would have won either way because if she backed down, they'd be able to say, see, look, she admits she's a heretic. But if she doesn't, then they get to kill her, you know, according to the rules, which they're continuously breaking. So as a result, she's burned at the stake, which is the traditional way you kill heretics. They throw her ashes in the same. And this is very common practice for heretics because they don't want you to basically have any access to their bodies that you could then like worship the relics.

So she's kind of scattered to the winds and that's that. And it's really depressing and like highly illegal. This is not what is supposed to happen. And like eventually as a result of this, the church eventually catches wind of this and they're like, excuse me? Right. Like, what, like, what are you talking about? Where the hell were they? Well, they don't fucking know what's going on up there, right?

It's like, what's going on in ruin? I don't know, right? Like, they're down in Rome, you know? Like, it's very far away. And they tried really hard to keep this off the books. The entire thing is them being like, no, don't do it, don't do it. Don't tell my boss that I'm doing this, right? So basically the minute, like the French people get word that this happens, they're like,

what the fuck? and they go straight to the papacy about it. And eventually the papacy is like, what the fuck happened? They go through it all and they're like, this was a completely illegal trial. They have a new trial. 115 witnesses are called.

Everyone is like, it was bad, homie. But ultimately, like the bad bishop, Couchon, he's like dead at this point in time. And so is Joan. So eventually she gets not only kind of let off of being a heretic. but she is then kind of seen as blessed. She doesn't become a saint right away.

It takes like a few centuries to kind of get that out. But, you know, this is also still politically motivated. You know, obviously the French are mad because this was their girl, right? So there are powerful people who intercede for her. She's just this really interesting person because she's really a product of her age and time. She's just a little girl. She's dead by the time she's 19. but she's constantly being threatened by, you know, the worst excesses of what the medieval

world are, you know, like powerful men who know how to play a system that she's ultimately pretty good at playing, who, you know, threaten her with physical and sexual violence. And we don't really know what would have happened to her if she'd live, right? You know, if she hadn't been killed, probably she was going to keep doing this thing. Like, she does all kinds of, like, wild stuff. Like, she writes these threatening letters to the Hussites over in the Czech lands and is like, I'm coming for your asses next once I get the English out of here because you can't find the church. Like, I mean, she definitely sees herself as someone who's going to spend the rest of her life engaged in Holy War for the church.

So it shows you that even peasant girls at the time can have a really good understanding of what's going on in Europe. She has pretty astute understandings of how theology works. She's able to play that really well until she specifically comes up against a bunch of people who want her dead. And she is a really clever person who manages to do all of these things well until, you know, until you meet some baddies. And, you know, some guys, times people are just evil. And, like, what are you going to do if you get captured by them? Do you think she knew she was going to die? Do you think it was like a martyrdom thing?

So she says this specifically, right? When she calls the council back after the 12 articles of accusations are made, she says, you know, I agreed to this because I was afraid of dying. But the angels told me to be real and just like, and get martyred. And she's like, so now I'm ready to die. And like that's basically she knew the minute she did it when she called them back that she was going to be killed. And she definitely saw it as a martyrdom.

And, you know, it's been at this point in time proved as thus. and, you know, now she's a saint. This is very much considered, like, a politically motivated religious killing. So, like, it ticks the boxes. And, yeah, she knew. And of course, she was scared of dying. She was 19. You know, I'm scared to die now.

I'm not 19. Final question about this, quite incredible. I was going to say a woman, but girl, I suppose. Like, she's so young. What was her legacy afterwards? I mean, did France, obviously they did get their shit together because we're not still colonizing them. But in the immediate weight,

of when people realized, hang on a minute, what the hell's happened here? Did it unify, France? It does to an extent where people are like, oh, no, this has gone too far. And one of the things that it does is it establishes the other side as unreasonable. It doesn't mean that they all get up and take up arms, but they're just like, you people cannot be worked with, right? And eventually what ends up happening, though, is that they're kind of all at a stalemate and it just sort of fizzles out.

The Hundred Years War is going to, it's like, it's creaking along. But no one really fights very much after this. They all just sit there and glare at each other. And eventually it just becomes clear that like England can't do it. Burgundy loses interest because everyone hates them now. And so like Burgundy kind of like goes back on its alliance with England. And so eventually, you know, decades later, it just kind of like everyone kind of shrugs and walks away. So this is a real turning point in that one of the things that it does, is it establishes a real kind of concept of Frenchness that Joan is representing. This doesn't happen overnight. You don't get to the end of the Hundred Years War just because of her,

but you do kind of get an end to hostilities. And you'd certainly get fewer English people coming over here and stealing everybody's cows. So what it ends up doing is just being like, yeah, everyone put your goddamn sword down. So she's kind of a sacrificial lamb in that way. Ellen, you are always the most fun to talk to, and you have been an absolute treat today. And if people want to know more about you, where can they find you? Did they need to accuse you of heresy? You probably get my ass, to be fair.

But you can, of course, come over to my delightful podcast, Gone Medieval, which I host with The Fabulous Matt Lewis. I'm there every Tuesday. If you want to check out my blog, you can find it at going hyphen medieval.com. And of course, my fabulous book, The Once in Future Sex, which talks all about gender roles in the medieval period, is now out in paperback for all of your delicious Women's History Month needs. So check that out. Please do. It is a fantastic book. And you are a fantastic guest.

Thank you, Eleanor. Thanks, babe. Appreciate it. Thank you so much to Eleanor for joining us. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like with you and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject Or maybe you'd just fancy saying hi Then you can email us at betwixt at history hit.com

We've got episodes on everything from Viking sex To the history of drag all come in your way This podcast was edited and produced by Stuart Beckwith The Senior Producer was Charlotte Long Join me again Betwixt the Sheets The History of Sex Scandal and Society A podcast by History Hit This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound

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