Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - The Scandalous Royal Mistress Who Ruled France

Episode Date: October 3, 2025

Is this strangest threesome in royal history?!We're endlessly fascinated with the lives of royal mistresses, and this has to be one of the most notorious.It takes place in 16th century France between Henry II, his wife Catherine de Medici and his much older mistress, Diane de Poitiers.How does this three-way power dynamic play out, inside and outside the bedroom? And how does Diane claim more power than the Queen?Joining Kate is the fantastic historian and author, Estelle Paranque, to take us back to this time and fill us in on the details.This episode was edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Sophie Gee. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit history hit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. You are you, I am me, and this is betwixt the sheets. So if you've wandered into the wrong podcast, now is your time to get out without disturbing everybody else. Have they gone?

Right, okay, dedicated betwixters. You know the drill by now. I do have to tell you, this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults, other adults about adulty things, and an adulty way covering an adult subject, and you should be an adult too. Oh my God, I feel so much safer.

Right on with the show. Hello, betwixters. Once again, I find myself lurking in a royal boudoir, one of my favourite historical hunting grounds. I know, I know, I probably should just leave them to it, but I do have to find out all the gossip for you, don't I? This time I'm in 16th century France, and even though I am discreetly hidden behind a curtain,

across the room in the royal bed with King Henry II is his wife, Catherine de Medici, A formidable woman in her own right. Honestly, you wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of her. And Henry's mistress is there too, Diane de Poitier. What an odd setup this one is. Diane was known as the golden mistress in her own day, and in ours, she's known as a golden mistress slash child abuser.

But I think that we absolutely need to know, how did this bizarre managetatat even come about? I am getting the hell out of here. What do you look for a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect confidence of whatever my boss needs by just turning it up and pushing the funny. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

Goodness, I feel for them. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Derry. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixta Sheet, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kitlister. Without giving too much away, let me just say that one of the titles we thought of given to this episode was The Straightestown. in just three ways in royal history. Need I say any more? Well, I probably better had, actually. And joining me today is the fabulous historian Estelle Perank, who previously came on to tell us all about how incestuous the Habsburgs were. And despite that being a really grisly subject, we all had to ask her back on. I also wanted to give a little shout out to a listener all the way from California called Kelsey. Hi, Kelsey. Thanks for listening. Your friend

Jasmine has put me up to this one so you can thank her for this. And while we don't normally do shoutouts, I couldn't resist this one. Thank you so much for spreading the word on Betwixt over in the States. I mean, you like could do with some cheering up right now, couldn't you? Right. On with the show. Well, hello and welcome back to Betwix the Sheets. It's only a stalperank. How are you doing? Very well and so excited about this to this episode.

Well, this has got to be one of the weirdest menager-tois in not just French, in history, right? In history, in history. I love the history of the royal mistresses. I'm endlessly fascinated by how this worked, who they were, how is the queen you put up with the fact that your husband has got a girlfriend? And it's so weird. But this one is between Catherine Demedice, Henry II and Diane de Poitiers. and it is weird even by the standards of the time. Absolutely.

And weird, but also like it tells us so much about women, women power. And there's something a bit unusual here between Henry and Diane. So weird. Well, wait. I'm getting ahead of myself already, but I can't wait to hear what on earth you think. What the hell was going on here. So let's set the stage a little bit, introduce our cast of characters. So we're in France.

16th century, what's going on? First of all, like, we have to remember a few things. We have to remember that the 16th century in general is a very turbulent time. There's like, you know, yet chaotic. It obviously means that it was chaotic in France as well. Maybe not as chaotic with Henry the 8th and these six-wise, but chaotic. Let me explain to you who is Henry the 2nd, who's Catherine, and then we'll move on to Dianne. So Henry the 2nd is the second son of Francis I, the first of France.

And Francis wanted his second son to have a good alliance, a good marriage. But what he really wanted was to have more claim on the Italian territories because he had claims. But there was a lot of people had claims on the Italian territories and lots of wars happened. He organized a marriage between Lorenzo II. of Medici with Madeleine de la Tour de Verne, a French noblewoman. And that union gave Catherine de Medici. What's crazy, she's of the Medici family. And then what happens is, tragically, she's going to lose her mother.

She's 10 days old. And then her father, she's three weeks old. She becomes the orphan of Florence. But she's not someone without, you know, a family. She's just someone who, like, the link between France and Italy, right? And the reason why Francis I wanted that marriage, because he was in control of de la Tour duverne, the family, and he thought that Madeleine would give him what he wants,

give him a good climb, a strong climb to the Italian territories. He obviously envisioned here a very strong alliance between the Medici and the royal family. And the Medici's were pretty badass, without getting into them because they could be a whole episode on their own, but they were quickly... They were very... Like, honestly, most powerful Italian family, the Borgias and stuff,

like, they're not that different. or even from the French noble family, the Gises, talking about people who were in the heart of power. Now, what's very interesting for Catherine, obviously everything seemed to be less appealing for Francis when both parents died. But then Catherine Demetius' uncle is going to become the Pope. Well, that's handy. Exactly.

And everything became way more interesting for Francis. So he's going to organise the marriage between Catherine and his second son, Henry. Second son. Second son. Not the oldest. No, no. He wants a very big dynasty alliance for the oldest. But he wants one that will give him more territories, more claims to the Italian territories

through the second son. So with Catherine, the Pope and Catherine are going to arrive in Marseille in October 1533. And she is there to marry Henry II. How old is she? She's 13-year-old, 14, 1314. But the good thing, Kate. Oh, God. but she's marrying someone the same age

and it's very, very rare. Okay, it's not as awful. You always end up when you're 13, 12, 14, 10, like, let's not even go, you know, but you're always marrying someone who's 30 in their mid-20s and it's dreadful. It's absolutely dreadful. But here, she's marrying another teenager.

So the same age, they were born the same year. And Catherine, I really believe that she fell in love. See, that's unusual too. We don't see that. No. Like, when they actually, like, real love here. Okay. You know, having said that, you say that, but like, I could give you lots of rural couples that

actually loved each other. Oh, maybe I've just been horribly cynical. I think we tend to forget, you know, some of them just got used to one another. You know what I mean? Like, you know, eager on me? Yeah. It wasn't my first choice, but I might as well. But there are some that are love matches, and I think that they're very interesting for that

as well. But I guess, again, that could be a total different episode because it's quite interesting to discuss this. But here, Catherine fell in love with this teenage boy who was quite handsome. Henry is quite handsome. But he's not in love with her. Okay, so we've got this Italian orphan from the Medici family, very young. Well, half French, half Italian.

Half French. Because people always forget that Catherine is actually half French. She's come over, she married another teenager, second son. Why do you think she fell in love of them? Was he particularly dashing? Like, you said he's good looking. What was he like? I think also because he's young

and I think because she's relieved that finally her life is getting stability. You have to remember like her life when she was young was really horrible because she was a midi because of her family. She was under attached. She was a pawn. And here it felt like, oh my God, I'm marrying in the French royal family.

She knows also like it's the land of her mother. So she's very attached to the memory of her mother and she's just eager to make it work. And here she's relieved is her age, is you know, not bad looking and it's so easy you know like i mean k i don't know remember when you were a teenager really stupid yeah i mean you know if someone just says hi to you and it's not bad looking like

you're all of the quiver aren't you like you can't help yourself it'll be my husband yeah good point why does you fall in love with him because she was 13 that's why because you just you fall in love with everyone okay come on he's a prince is there marry him yeah okay that makes sense but lots and lots of problems are going to happen very quickly. Henry is already in love with someone else. Disaster. That's not good. That's not good when that happens. She's 20 or 90 years. 19 years, not 19 years. Not 19 years old. That woman is the underpity. She was supposed to teach him languages and classics.

She taught him everything. She's 20 years older than him. And I know that there's a gender standard here because if it was a guy and it's 20 years old, older would all kind of be going, oh, it's a bit weird, but okay. But like a woman, at the time, that would have been quite unusual. It was shocking and it was more shocking when everyone realized how much power at influence she had over him. Because here you have to understand that this young teenage boy is completely and utterly smitten by Dian.

First of all, she's, I'm going to say she's the most beautiful woman at a French call, but if she's not the most, she's one of them. She's a hottie. Oh, yeah. She's gorgeous for the beauty standards of the time, but even nowadays, if you look at a portrait, you're like, yeah, yummy. She's also extremely intelligent. She was married. She had children and she was now a widow.

Let's talk about this. Like the most powerful women at any course where the widows, once you're a widow, if you don't marry, you're sorted for life. Like you're like... Yeah, done. So she has her own wealth. she's really well-educated and she's a court and she's going to have her problems with the mistresses of Francis I first because obviously people like to be at the centre of attention

and she's not a mistress to Francis I first but she's extremely close to Henry and it's going to get even more complicated when Francis was going to become the second he never become the second if Francis Duke of Aureon is going to die and it's going to die in 1536 and then it means that Henry and Catherine become Dauphin and Dauphin, so the he is to the throne.

And he's like, oh my God, Dianne now has so much influence in power over the future king of France. I just feel that we need to like just back and just remind ourselves that he was 13 and that would have meant that she was 33 years old. Yes, and she was shagging him. It's horrible, isn't it? In a way, I find it so horrible. Like, when you think about a 13-year-old? I would not touch him with us to him. Like, I don't know if it's an expression

We're not touching him with anything. Like, what? He's a mousketeer? What on earth does she think she's doing? Jesus Christ. But I think here, I've never said that I think Diane was in love with Henry. I don't think she was.

I don't think she was. Tell me about it. So you said that she's a widow. She's got her own children. 33 and, oh, God. Like, what on earth? How did they meet? What was this relationship?

So she's family. then with her husband, there's always been at court and she's from a noble family. So she's always been around. And Francis thinks that it's a good idea to offer her the position of a tutor to his son, Henry. Was that normal protocol? Do you think he was setting them up somehow? No, probably not, but also I think you liked pleasing Dian. I think you have to remember, Dionne is a fan fatale. It's not just, you know, about beauty. It's about how you carry yourself. It's about charisma. It's about her intelligence.

It's about how she make people react, really. You see that a lot, don't you? Because, like, you know, beautiful women, beautiful men, they're 10 a penny. There's loads of them in the courts. Like, parents are literally flinging their attractive children in front of rich people. And it might get you a throwdown.

It might get you, like, one or two nights. But if all you've got, if all you're bringing is pretty, then that you will be gone quite quickly. Like, the really great mistresses tend to be exactly. as you were saying, intelligent, witty, good company, very skilled social diplomacy. You know, it's never about sex, Kate. Like, I mean, saying that in your podcast, so you're going to hate me now. No, it's true.

But I've always said that a mistress, it can get you into the bed of the king for a few nights. But for you to remain there, you need to bring war to it. You need to be something else. And it's all going to be your mind. But here, let's not forget, here, she's not talking to an adult. talking to a young boy. It's grooming. Absolutely. She's a predator. I mean, if she had been a man, we would have said, like, oh my God, she's dreadful.

You know, it's the same today. You know, when you have like a university professor or lecturer, whatever, he's a man. He slips with students and their 17, 18, 19, 20, whatever. He's a predator. But if a woman does it. The Mrs. Robinson fantasy. I found it absolutely disgusting. I think you still have lots of power and influence over a young man that can't say no really. So as I said, like, those two, you. like Henry and Catherine, because let's not forget my Catherine, please. No, no, we'll get to her. They're both like, doffin, dophine. But he's always spending time with Diane. They're not conceiving, people are starting to think that there's a problem.

I'll be back with Estelle after this short break. Are they having like a sexual relationship, or is he so busy with Diane that nothing's happening? But that's where it gets interesting. So they're supposed to. Oh, I see Kate, you're going to love this. They're supposed to. So at first, you know, from 1533 to 1536, no one is really paying attention what's happening between Henry and Catherine because they're not heir to the throne.

So they're hoping, like everyone was hoping they will have children, but at the same time, what happened? It's a crazy, crazy story. So you have Henry and Catherine and everyone's saying, oh my God, they're not, she has not been pregnant once. And to a point where there are rumors that are saying that he should divorce her or get an annulment, marry someone else. Catherine heard that rumor. Very smart, very smart woman. I love Catherine Medici with all my heart. She goes to Francis I first. And here, so humble,

she said, I completely understand what you have to do to protect the dynasty, you know, your dynasty and the future of France. I will accept an annulment and I will go back to wherever you want me to go back. I will go to a convent, whatever. I just want you to be happy. Risk and strategy, Catherine. And he said, oh my God, I adore you. You like a daughter to me. there will be no annulment, but we have to find a way. So then it's where she's going to be like asked to drink urine of mules. Oh, dear. I think I'd have rather gone back to Italy, but okay.

I think I would have to do. And there are all the things that she's going to have to do, you know, go on pilgrimage and all these things that, you know, it was the woman. But Catherine is a smart woman and she's like, okay, there must be something wrong. And she always sees Henry and the end together. So she's like, honestly, I don't understand what's going on because Henry does visit my chamber, but I'm obviously not getting pregnant. That's a rumor, but I believe that it's a true story. When you know what's going to happen next, it makes a lot of sense, all right? So again, I wasn't there, but you can see that. There's something here. She's going to ask you have a peek to see what's actually going on when Henry and they're not together. And she's going to look into a hall in their chambers and look into what they're doing. And she's going to realize, oh my God, he doesn't do that to me. Do I want to know?

Do I do what? Oh, God. They were having sex. I think what happened is that he was never having said. He must have cuddled her, never had sex, never put, and or never, okay. And then I'm going to become very graphic because it's very graphic in the sources. I know, I'm a historian. I quote sources.

Catherine is going to go to Jan because Diane is realizing that there's a problem. If there's an annulment or if she doesn't, you know, produce any children, she's scared that actually Henry the 2nd will be married to someone else. And that person might be more charismatic, more beautiful, younger, and that she will lose her influence on Henry. So here we have the mistress and the wife that are into a partnership. She's like, okay, there's something that is not doing with you that he's doing with me. And she basically tells her, you can't get it up with you. He can't do it.

You're not attractive enough. Thanks, Diane. Yeah, thanks for that. And so what she's going to do is why it's the weirdest menagerie of all time. They decide that they go together in the bedroom with Henry. Okay. She prepares him. He finishes in Catherine.

How do we know this? How do we know what are the sources? First of all, we have the sources. Basically, it's court rumors. But there's something that doesn't lie, Kate. She's pregnant. Boom. Something happened.

1546. She's pregnant. It worked. It's so weird. It's so intensely weird. They're having sex. Well, I think it's more, Catherine, like, imagine you're on your back,

spreading your legs, waiting for those two to finish, like to do their stuff, and then he comes in you. And that's something that happens and happens, and she ends up having children. If you're thinking about, like, long-term, dynamic future security, Catherine

has to get pregnant. She has to. Like, that's her job. And if this is the only way of, it's still intensely fucking... It's humiliating, it's humiliating. And like, And Diane De Poitiot is like doing this with two teenagers. Like, how old would they have been at this point? At that time, they're no longer teenagers, right?

They're in their 20s. But it's still very disgusting. It's still very... And also we realised the problem was also Catherine. Like, there was something wrong. Well, the problem was never Catherine. No. Because obviously she got pregnant as soon as he did what he had to do.

But he actually had an illegitimate child with a mistress that he shagged in Italy when he went on a campaign. And he came back with saying, well, I can have children. So obviously, the... problem with you. No, the problem, babe, it's not, it's not Catherine. It's probably like you didn't come inside her for you to have a child. But here, Catherine, builds up so much resentment and hatred for this mistress. And it's not just that, because it's not just about sex. We said that. Once they become king and queen of France, so it's in 1547, do you know who has a seat at the Privy Council? Oh, God. Diane. It's not just humiliated in the bedroom of what's going on here, but this.

It's humiliated everywhere. This woman starts. She's basically regarded as the second queen. She's the queen. She's the queen. Yeah. She's the queen in all but name. She's in the Privy Council.

Worse than that. And as where Catherine really stood firm here, and I love it. Like I wrote this in Blood Fire and Gold. So it's a story of Elizabeth I first in Catherine. But I cover this because they're formative years for Catherine. You can't understand Catherine what she does later on in her life, how such a protective mother she becomes. If you don't understand the years,

and the decades of humiliations, not just in the bedroom, the fact that people think she's not attractive enough, the fact that, you know, she can't get her husband to get it up and to come in. Like, it's beyond humiliation. But also on a political level, you know, her rival is in the Privy Council. And then she was like, stop enough.

It's when Gianni Pueti tried to have, well, she didn't just try. She had an interest in the rural children's education. And then Catherine was like, enough. They are my children. Absolutely. Yeah, that's... And I'll be the one

writing to the educators and tutors and not you. But Diane keeps doing it anyway. And there's this biggest resentment and rivalry. To the point, you know, there's also Mary Stewart, you know, who's at the French court

and she loves Diane de Poitie. She chose Diane's side. And that's why when people ask me, why do you think Catherine immediately she didn't like Mary Stewart that much? Because of that. Because of that. Because she loved her biggest rival

more than she loved her mother-in-law. And there was things like when they got married, didn't the Pope send a wedding gift to Diane de Poitier as well? Just like little things like that. Like it's just humiliating on a global platform. Everybody knows about this. Everybody knows the power and influence of Diane and how much it affected Catherine. But remember here, I think what's the craziest part here is not just about sex. The sex part is, I think, a purpose.

personal and intimate humiliation. Yeah. Because rumours were everywhere. Like, I mean, let's face it, they could not conceal it. No. For years, she would not have had any children. And as soon as Diane accepted to join the role bedchamber do what she had to do, she became pregnant.

That is very clear here that we have three people naked together. It's so controlling from Diane de Poitiers. Like, she's controlling every aspect of Henry's life now. She's controlling Henry. She's controlling Henry. Was Diane well liked at court? Because I don't like her and I'm hundreds of years later. And like when I listen to this, I'm just like, get in the bend, you awful, awful.

But was she well liked? She had lots of enemies, but she also had lots of allies. Like the geezers were quite good friends. I mean, not, you know, what I mean, I say friends. I mean, the French court in the 16th century, I don't think you can call anyone friends. But I think it's because they recognize. have power. I think, you know, it's not about being liked. It's about being respected. It's about recognizing that you have power because you control the king. So then you had people obviously

kissing your house and others being like waiting for your downfall because there's one thing, Kate. It's coming. The table's always done. They always do. Yeah. I mean, it's just a part of life. What's sad? And I'm going to tell you that before we go with like, you know, the triumph, what I call the triumph of Catherine and the downfall of the end. But let's talk just before that. What's very interesting is that towards the end of Henry the Second's reign, he's like around 1555, 1556, he's starting to get on it better and better with his wife because he realized that she's been loyal all the time. She only showed him love and respect. And he's starting to feel for her. Diane doesn't like that.

And he's starting to laugh. We have recalls where they start laughing together. And Kevin is showing that she does understand politics. Now I'm going to tell you something that I wrote in my book, but also that most people don't know. Catherine Domenici is the reason why France got back Calais. She gave a speech to the Parliament of Paris and managed to get funds to send to Henry, her husband, who managed to get back Calais.

Okay, so we lost the war, but forget about that. We don't care. We got Calais back in 1558, and that is Catherine. And then Diane is like, oh my God. Her speech is, I quoted almost the whole thing in my book because it's such a wonderful, powerful speech. It's when you realize, oh, my God, she's so politically, diplomatically intelligent. And Henry is so proud of her.

When he comes back, I mean, they lost the war. It's very difficult. I mean, lost is a big time. I mean, Spain, England and France had to stop this because, you know, things were not working anymore. Everyone was like getting bankrupt. But he's here like, oh my God, my wife is not that stupid. So when he dies on the 10th July 1559, after a tournament that is going to celebrate that peace between France, England and Spain, and where he marries his daughter to Philip the second of Spain, when he dies there, for Catherine, it is the first tragedy of life.

She lost the love of her life. She says that. She was in love with Henry, completely in love with Henry, despite what he put her through. But then it's a downfall of Jan because she's like, all right. Now, it's my son who's in charge. Francis II, Mary to Mary Stuart, and you, you go back. You're no longer welcome a court. Sling your hook.

You give me back the magnificent Chinasso Castle. Like, it's going to be the chateau of Catherine de Medici. And she's going to say, you can have a castle. She let her have, like, everything that she had from her nobles rights and, you know, noble birth. But she takes away a lot of things that Henry gave to her. There's stuff that Diane refused to give back. some jewelry and stuff. I think there's a sentimental.

I mean, to be fair, I still don't think she was in love with Henry. I think she was just in love with the idea of power and of having so much influence on the king. But it's a downfall. And then, you know, she retreats. She even wrote a letter, Kate, to Catherine, apologising for all the years of humiliation. But do you think she would have written that letter

if Henry hadn't died? Not a chance. Exactly. You know, I'm just like, you're still a bitch. I'll be back with Estelle after the short break. This is the thing that all royal mistresses and royal favourites have to contend with is their power and their influences absolutely contingent on, first of all, the king's being in love with you and wanting to have you around, and secondly, the king's staying alive.

Catherine de Medici, she's going to have power no matter what, but Diane de Poitia, it's completely dependent on Henry not getting killed. Exactly, and honestly she didn't see that coming. He was 40, he died in a tournament, it's an accident. You know, you should not have died. That puts the whole country in a huge turmoil. That is going to, you know, then there's going to be lots of problems in the second half of the 16th century for France and for Catherine. But in a way, so Catherine lost the love of a life, but she had a revenge.

Oh, life begins at 40 for Catherine, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. It does. It does. That makes you think. They're like, so then Diane is well into her 40s by the time this happened. And she was famously beautiful. and didn't she have a secret for preserving her beauty? Yeah, there's other things that she put like gold on her face and that she was dreaming things as well to pier still young.

You know, honestly, Kate, I think that there are some people that have good genetics, right? Like, they're just beautiful people. Like, there's nothing really you can do. You know, you see as well, like women or men, that some of them, they age gracefully and beautifully. And I think, Jan was one of them, one of these lucky women. but also I think that it was also, she started on someone so young, how does he get rid of her? There's almost like a matron figure here.

So poor Catherine, I mean, just to have to have endured that for like 25 years or whatever it was, it's just insane. And you can kind of look at Dianne de Poch and be like, well, you're clearly a sexual predator and you're clearly somebody that is obsessed with power and you've manipulated this person. What on earth was Henry doing? And what do you think his relationship to this one? Because it was bizarre how dependent and obsessed he was with her. Well, first of all, we have to remember that Henry lost his mother really young, Claude of France.

So I really think here we have this kind of weird dynamic where you fell in love because she's beautiful. And also, like, can you imagine you're a teenage boy and you get the woman that everyone is like everyone would love to shake? Yeah, the pinup of the day. Yeah. And at the same time, I think as the relationship, people, and as she grows older, then it's like the allegiance and the law. He's extremely loyal.

Like Henry is extremely loyal in lots of ways, in his relationships. And I think this kind of loyalty towards her and the sense of maternal figure, mother figure, that he could not have with Catherine who was the same age. So he didn't have that kind of relationship with her. It's grooming as well, isn't it?

It's like long-term grooming over. He was so young and clearly quite a traumatized childhood. Because wasn't he like taken, hostage at one point? Yes, he was sent to... So his father was taken hostage by Charles V of Spain and he was in prison in Spain

and his grandmother, because she absolutely wanted to have the king back, I mean, the situation in France was dreadful. She organised that the two princes should be sent instead of the king and the king would be released and it was accepted. So he was in prison in Spain for years before himself being released.

As a little boy. Yeah, it really, I think, messed up with his head as well. And when he came back, maybe that's why his dad was like, well, I'm going to give you a beautiful tutor to make up all these years. Not expecting that this tutor will actually take advantage of a young prince the way she did. It's such a messed up story, isn't it? What happened to Diane in the end?

Because I love that for Catherine. Just the moment, he's off his ass, right, bitch, you are out of here. Pack your bags. The Uber is on the way. I've been waiting for this. I never wanted to see you again. Like, it's basically this. Out.

But Tian just stay in a chateau de Annette and just lives there until her death. Like she grows older now and, like, she loses her power and her influence at court. But at the same time, I wonder, you know, if it's not something she enjoys because finally she has a peaceful. Do you see what I mean, Kate? Like, I'm saying like for someone. It's exhausting, isn't it? To be a mistress is exhausting. But also always in the middle of everything that was happening.

And somehow now she got like peace and quiet. She still had her wealth. Yeah. It's a revenge for Catherine. because at least Catherine doesn't have to see her face anymore. Yes. But really, when you look at it, Janice appeals for end of life. Like, she lose, like, power.

But I guess when you're in your 60s, you're like, yeah, fuck it. You're like, yeah, fuck it, you can have it. It's so tired by that point, only, just, you know, it'd be quite nice to retire to a little shatter. So I don't know if she ever got what we call a comeuppance, but she certainly got slung out of court. She had to give back things. I think giving back Shunoso must have been, I mean, Shenanso is the most beautiful, for me, like, most beautiful.

castle in France. And I think giving it back when she knew that Henry gave it to her and wanted her to have it, it must have been like something she's really. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It must have burned her a little. But otherwise, it's not like she lost. Not really. She lost complete power and influence. That, yes. But she was in her 60s when it happened. And what happened to Catherine? So Diane is going to go and just go and live in this castle and just calm down you. Henry, dead and gone. God rest is wee bum. What happened to Catherine? Catherine is the rise of Catherine.

So at first, not really. So in 1559, her son, Francis, become Francis II. He's married to Mary Stewart. The Giesies become important accord there on the Privy Council. Catherine is on the Privy Council and she becomes an advisor. But at first is very hard because lots of people have more influence on the royal couple than she does. She's close to Francis, but he's 16. He does what he wants. You know how you're like, Mom, leave me alone.

you know, like kind of an attitude. But he's going to die in December 1560. That's very, very hard for Catherine to lose it. At the same time, that's the complete rise of Catherine because then her second son, Charles, is nine years old. He's going to be Charles the 9th. And he's 9 years old and it means that she has not to fight for the regency. And it's exactly what she's going to do.

And she managed to get it, maybe not in official terms, but she gets it. She doesn't get the official title on 20. the Bourbon who's going to get it, but she shares it with him. Bourbon is in Navarre, so she's like, I'm fine, I can do whatever. And she has complete control. She has complete control over her boy to the point that even when he becomes of age, which is 12 years old, 1562, when he's crowned and everything, he literally said,

my mother is still ruling for me. Wow. Sweet boy. But when he's in his 15, 16 years old, and then he's starting to argue with her, he's starting to say, Mom, I know what I'm doing. And she's like, no, you don't. and she's still very much in power. She loses power, or she's no longer in control, in 1574 when he died,

and then it's Henry III, so her favorite son, but he's a favorite, but he's 25. He's 25, he becomes king, and he's like, Mom, chill. You'll be on the preview console. You'll be one of my most important advisors for sure. I will listen to you, but I won't do everything you do or you want me to do. Like, she loves him so much. She loves Henry III so much. It's definitely the favorite.

he looks like Henry the second. He's very dashing. You'll see portrait. Like, it is not just me saying that. You'll see it. Like, he really is. She's still very much like a very important advisor. She writes letters to everyone.

She writes letters to her Elizabeth I wrote this and blood fangle like to like, but at the same time, she's not the one in control. Henry is. But she had been in control before. She had been ruling. And that's the rise of Catherine.

Like it's Catherine being constantly important politically and diplomatically when she wasn't when she was younger. So really when I hear women that says like, oh, you know, you can't succeed when you're in your 40s, 50s, no, you can be rising. You can be like, I mean, she died. She was 69.

For 20 years, she had been like this powerhouse. And you can be too. Like, you know, age is nothing. If you want to achieve something, you can. Just make sure you get rid of your husband's mistress first. And then you are on your. Your way. On your way to greatness.

No, but she is. And I think Catherine is so, like, badly portrayed and there's so many, there's a dark legend around her. None of it is true. None of it. Bullshit. I think I would have bumped Diane off. If I was Catherine Demadice, I think I would have just had a word with somebody who knew about those kind of things. And I think I might have taken her out.

You think so? Well, I never understood why she didn't do that because she must have been a massive pain in the earth. Yeah, but Catherine was not that type of woman. She just focused on what she had to focus on, which was ruling with her sons and making sure that France were... You know, that's the thing. Catherine was so devoted to France and the Valois dynasty.

She really married into the dynasty and really, really cared about it. I feel so sad, you know, that, you know, despite her father, she has 10 children, is the end of the Valois dynasty. You should have never, never happened. No, that shouldn't have happened. It's horrible for her.

Estelle, you have been wonderful to talk to. I know that you would be. And if anyone wants... to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? So they can find me on Instagram. That's not my favourite social media platform. Obviously published a book, Blackfe and Gold. And if you want to know more back Catherine Dmitagee and who she really was,

that's a book for you. It's about her relationship with Elizabeth I of England, because actually these two also have a very funny story site. Amazing. We'll have you back to tell us about that one then. Thank you so much. You've been absolutely marvellous. Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Estelle for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like review and follow along whatever it is. You get your podcasts. Coming up, we've got an episode taking you inside the brothels of Tokugawa Japan and a special episode with none other than Philip Gregory on the betrayal inside Henry the 8th's court. And if you want us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at betwixt at history hit.com. This podcast was edited by Tom Delagie and produced by Stuart Beckwith.

The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again, Betwixta Sheets, The History of Sex, Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit.