Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - The Truth About The Minotaur

Episode Date: May 30, 2025

Deep in an Ancient Greek labyrinth lurks the half bull half man monster: the Minotaur.What did this wild myth about a woman having a baby with a bull have to say about how humans understood our taboo desires? How did they even make it happen? And what happened when you found him in the labyrinth?Joining Kate today is historian and author, Jasmine Elmer, to help us get to the bottom of this myth and find out the truth behind the Minotaur.This episode was edited by Tom Delargy. The producer was Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? We'll sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles.

Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. You are listening to Bertwicks the Sheeds. And this is a naughty podcast, quite frankly. We do like getting our hands dirty and historical smut around here. So I do have to tell you, this is an adult podcast,

pocket by adults to other adults about dirty things in an adulty way covering around to adults. Subdiction, you should be an adult too. And if you can't take all of that off your list, then sod off. We don't want you around here anyway. Right, for the rest of you, on with the show. We are deep underground here beneath the Palace of Canossos in the Bronze Age of Crete, and I am lost. Yes, I know it's a labyrinth and they're not meant to be easy,

but there's not even a phone signal down here for me to be able to cheat my way out of it. Somewhere through these passageways lurks a half-man, half-bull monster of ancient Greek mythology, the Minotaur. And I'm looking for him because I want to hear his side of this utterly mad story. And it's a story that at the heart of it explains how humans grapple with primal and forbidden desires, which frankly I am all about. You want to find out more? Well, then we've got to find him first.

What do you look for in a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning it up and pushing him. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, my beautiful time. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Terry. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society, with me, Kate Lister. Greek mythology is pretty mental at the best of times, not to mention controversial.

See our episode from earlier this year on the truth behind Medusa, for more on that. When the ancient Greeks decided to explore their baser desires, they did not hold back, brings us to today's episode where I once again talk with the fabulous historian and author Jasmine Elmer to get to the heart of the Minotor myth and find out what is it really all about. Togas and Bullhorns at the ready. Let's do this. Hello and welcome back to the Twix the Sheets. It's only Jasmine Elmere. How are you doing? I feel like I'm a co-host. I would love you to be a co-host.

I'm back again. So it's very exciting to be here. Back once again, bringing your knowledge of the ancient world and the ancient Greeks and this time the Minotaur. I know. One of my genuine, genuine favourites. Oh, is it? Most of what I know about this myth is based on my watching Jim Henson's Greek myths as a child, which I loved. Are the best things on the planet with the dog. Were you a big fan too? Of course. Of course. And the storyteller as well. Yeah, all of it. Just all of it. I loved all of that. So good. Now, you have studied this in depth and you are a classicist scholar. I have watched something with puppets in it. So just give me a quick rundar.

Who is the Minotaur? So the Minator is a half bull, half man creature from Greek mythology. Does it specify which half? The head of a bull, the body of a man. I really feel like it's my foot, because it's the most messed up backstory, I think we've got in Greek mess. It's top level, top level messed up. I bet none of this made into Jim Henson's version for children either. No.

Go on then. You disabused me of this. The Minotaur is from the island of Crete, so King Minos, who people might have heard of, is the king of that place. And he refuses to sacrifice a beautiful bull to the gods. You're not allowed to do that because that's bad. You've got to do what you're supposed to worship the gods and do what they say. Okay. So as a punishment, the goddess Aphrodite makes his wife, Pasifay, fall in love with a bull.

And then she has a baby little ball thing called the Minotaur. And you might be asking me, Jasmine, what happened in between that? Yes, please. That's my favourite bit. How did Pasifay get with the ball? That's the question. I mean, that's what you're all thinking. Yes, definitely.

Yes. So Pasifay gets the help of died, the famous invent. to Didalus, who King Minus has got imprisoned basically on Crete. I mean, imagine this series, first of all, before I carry on, amazing series. And she goes to Didalus and says, I need to, you know, with the bull, give us, how do I do it? And he says, I'll make you a cow to get into, like some fashioned thing. Then you crawl into it and then you do your thing and then it's all sorted. And then the Minotaur came.

That's just Who thought that up? Do you know what? The story, obviously we'll get into the story. All good with the story, fine. But that little detail, that's the cherry on the top. Who came up with that?

I mean, that shows commitment, doesn't it? Like, on her part, is that she would involve DIY and a craftsman in this as well. Because if I was going to do that, I'd attempt to do it myself. I'd be too embarrassed to try and get help in. What's that thing that you can put?

Is it like the handymen apps or whatever you call? Yeah, you've been looking on YouTube for tutorials. Can you imagine? Carpenter wanted to fashion cow for something or other. No questions, please. For shenanigans. No questions are. That's the most deranged story.

To be fair to pass Faye though, like she has been made to fall in love with the bull by Aphrodite. Right, but she wasn't made to go and make a cow suit that she had to run around in. No, no, but you know. All right. So we're going to get. give her a bit of license because she's been cursed by, she's not in her right mind quite clearly.

What a bunker story. And in this world, that results in a pregnancy. In this world, that results in the pregnancy of a bull child called the Minotaur, who is then, most people know him because he's lobbed in the labyrinth, this maze that's underground that he has to live in, in shame. Wow. And all this, because his dad, Minos, wouldn't sacrifice a bull. Well, he's not his dad technically, is he?

Okay. Oh, yes, he's not. No, all right, you're stepdad. Stepdad, yeah, if you want to call it that. Okay. You say all of this. I totally get where it doesn't feel like a fair punishment. But it's the, what's been broken is the law of hubris, which is arrogance against the gods. So it's a disrespect to the gods. That is hardcore. That's a hardcore crime, religious crime. So it is fitting in the Greek, always in the Greek mindset.

Yeah. fitting. No, no, I like to think social services would have stepped in a while before any of this happened. I would like to, I mean, I know the funding ain't great nowadays, but I like to think that would have gone up the top of the case list as one to have a look at. That wouldn't be a story we'd all be reading about in the papers going, there were opportunities missed. We saw her building a cow, Your Honor. Oh my God. Right. Sorry. We should probably both be fired from this podcast immediately. I think so. I think it might be cancelled pretty quickly after this. Right. Okay. Moving swiftly along. So the poor little kid, the minotaur, and is that his name, Minator or is it The Minator?

I've never thought of it before, but it would be, I don't know why that's even funnier to think of. You mean like Madonna, but it's Minotaur. Because the Minotaur, which suggests there's more than one. Well, no, I guess it depends on how Sussie's feeling on the day. Is he just Minotaur? No, I think there aren't any more, but Minos is the first part, because obviously where he's at, Minos. And Taurus is ball. So it's like the bull of Minos quite literally. So it is specific to him.

But I just quite like the idea that he's like calling himself by this. I like to go by Minotaur. Thank you very much. Yes. So what was he like before he got thrown in this giant maze also built by Datalus, who was kept very busy by this family? Why was he thrown in there? Was he thrown in there as an infant?

Did he display disturbing behavior as a bull child? Like what? So the first thing is like in the sources, the minotaur isn't seen as this kind of primary figure where we hear about how the minotaur is feeling and thinking. He's kind of like just this object of shame. Right. So there's no kind of like, sit down children, listen to the story of the minotaur from his perspective. Is none of that going on in any of the sources?

It's more like there's this creature and he's thrown into the labyrinth. I mean, he has to be, the labrith has to be designed and made by Daedler so he can go and live in it, to hide the shame of what has happened. Okay. So it's quite sad, really, with the mine at all, because he don't really have, he's not, he's not even the leading character in his own story. No, he's not really, is he? He's a bit, there's not, source material wise for him.

There is source material, of course. But even, like, the actual meat and bones of his story doesn't really come up until, like, the first century, AD. So it's really late because although there's origins way back like six, seventh century, like mentions. Yeah. Like the meatiness doesn't come to a bit later. So he's not even that bigger deal in earlier mythology. And he's another character from Greek myth that seems to have got a particularly raw deal

when you actually break down what's happened to this character because none of this is his fault. No, it's not. And again, we see this a lot with monsters. They are essentially some kind of pretty. projection of a human fear. Yeah. And yeah, they're personified in some way into a character. It might feel like harsh, but there's no kind of like, you know,

the Greeks aren't thinking of them as like this poor little individual figure. He symbolises something and they're aware of that. But that's why they're made in, these individuals are made into monsters because they're not human. It doesn't matter. He's got a human body. He's got a bull's head. He's not human. Yeah.

And so that that means we can like, put him over there and make him an object of fear rather than just a normal human that did something bad and over there. But you're right. For us, if you've got any bloody empathy, you'll be like, that's horrible. Yeah. Lobed in the dark. Okay, so none of that came up

in the Jim Henson version. Thesius. Enter stage left, Theseus. Who is he? Where did he come from? Let's try and explain what happens, where the Minotaur reappears. Yeah, so Thesius comes from Athens. And the Athenians are supposed to, I mean, don't ask me why again, right?

But the Athenians are supposed to send a group of youths, men and boys and girls over for the Minotor to be eaten every year, every four years. It doesn't, different versions doesn't really matter. And so, Thesis is like, hang on a minute, they ain't right. I'm not going to send my people over to get eaten by this thing. So he goes in as one of the youths hidden and goes to slay the Minotaur and put an end to this Malarkey. Right. So, as you know, it's a labyrinth. So how's he going to get in and get out?

He backs himself that you can kill the monitor, but how's he going to get out? So Princess Ariadne, who is one of the daughters of Minos, falls in love with him and helps. And she gives him a ball of wool. So he kind of goes off in, unravels it so he can follow it on the, we can kill the monitor and then come back out again. And then he does the decent thing on the way back, takes her, going to marry her, just abandons her on the island of Naxos on the way back, just go see you later off, you've done your job.

He's an original fuck boy. That's not very nice. He's a douche, really. So it kills the Minotaur. Do we know how? No, there's not really, it's not like other stories where you've got a detail about it. He just goes and kills the Minotaur. Right.

It's quite sad, actually. It's just like, and he's dead. Presumably with a sword or a knife or a dagger or a rock or there's different, like, it's not much detail. really. And then he runs off with Ariadne and ditches are on an island? After she's just portrayed her family to do this as well. You've got to remember

that. Technically, the Minotaur is her half-brother. So, it's messed up, in it? What a shit. Yeah, I do not like Theseus. Don't get me chatting about him. You're not a fan. No. There's something about in that he's just really up himself. They're all up himself. He is really up himself.

I've always hated him. So, sorry if everyone loves him out there. Nobody does. And I was just because surely, even back in the ancient Greek world, his abandoning of Ariadne would have been at least frowned upon. No. No. No.

I mean, like, for example, Jason and Medea. Medea helps Jason to get the golden fleece by putting the dragon to sleep. Spoiler like, that's in my book. And then he says, I'll marry you. And then he does. And it's all crap, though. It's just not a good end.

No. And her rage ends up killing everyone. So, spoiler alert about Greece, his women aren't treated very good. No. The end. But also, Theseus is, he's just, he's a fucking idiot as well,

because didn't he forget to change his ship's sails on the way back? Wasn't that a thing? Yeah, so his dad is called Ageus. And his dad, I mean, why you do this? I've got no idea. Should have just sent a WhatsApp that he was saying he was all right.

But he said, obviously, he was shitting himself that his son was going over to kill the mine at all. So he said, when you come back, make sure you change your sale, because there's a black sail and a white sail. So make sure you change your sale to show me that you're alive. So I know you've come back and he forgot to change the sale. Dick Ed. See, they can't change the sheets.

They can't change the sails. It's just ridiculous. His father lobs himself into the sea. And that's why it's called the Aegean Sea after Aegeus. Well, what a miserable, rather depressing story. Is there any winners in this at all? Nope. It's awful, isn't it?

It's fascinating, but it's awful. The end. Why is it your favourite myth then? This is just a car crash of human misery. It's because of the cow bit. I don't know what that says about me, but I just find that I don't know why I just... It is the most mad detail.

I just have always just been like, what the hell is that about? I just loved it. Genuinely, though, the minor tour has a lot of symbolism that relates to it. I actually think it is really sad. I think basically I like myths that have, I really feel something from it. And I just feel something from this.

I get angry and sad at this one and a little bit bemused by the whole cow bit. So I get a nice range of emotions. That's why it's one of my favourites. Yeah, I mean, it definitely makes you think, doesn't it? What symbolism do you think the bull house? Like, why is he half a bull? Why isn't he half a horse or half a, I don't know, a rhino? What is the symbolism of the bull?

Well, the bull's really interesting. So before we have the Greeks, as you might think of them, there are different, obviously, eras. And the oldest civilisation in the Greek islands is the Minoans on the island of Crete, which is the same as where the Minotaur is. And they were famed for their bull leaping. And they have a lot of bulls in their iconography. So ball leaping is where there are these images, they're pretty cool, where men would, as a sport, sort of leap over the back of a ball. It looks insane. I don't know how they did it.

And they must have all died as far as I can tell. But it's like, I guess, a prelude to kind of bull fighting in what you get in Spain and things like that. But it looked more artistic. So the bull was long associated with Crete in its kind of history. So it makes sense that it would be a bull and not a horse or a goat or any other thing you want to fancy lobber in there. Rather than, yeah, any other creature because it's what Crete's known for. So it's really why I'd say it's the bull. Is it anything to do with masculinity?

Is the bull a symbol of masculinity? I guess it kind of is now like bullfighting. That's the whole point of it, isn't it? It's like, oh, look at me, big man, I can kill this animal. I mean, obviously there's the fact that originally Minos was going to sacrifice a beautiful bull, so it's kind of like, you know, here we go, that motif continues in the punishment.

I wouldn't say necessarily that it's like a manly, is it a manly creature? I mean, obviously it's a really powerful creature. And so it's got an aspect of kind of power in there. Therefore, is that a bit manly, maybe? But I don't really think there's a lot to do with the choice of it that relates to gender there, really. I'll be back with Jasmine and The Minotaur after this short break.

What would you think about the idea that the Minotaur, there's something to do with sexual shame here? I mean, thinking back to the insane character story, I would be ashamed too. But the way that Greeks and the ancient myths work is it's all very symbolic. Like if you start to question it for too long, the whole thing falls apart pretty quickly.

So, like, you can't get into the logistics of what, how, who did what? Like, what did beastiality mean to them? What do you think they, do you think they thought that was a funny story? Do you think that they thought that, like, what would that have meant to them? This bestiality, this woman who is so insane with lust that she has, a man comes in to build things for her? Like, what do you think that meant to them? It is a mad story.

It's completely mad, but you're right at the heart of it is sexual taboo. Yeah. So this is obviously something, this is not something that is going on in Greek society. This is not their attitude to this is this is a taboo. You don't do this. And so that is why we have this myth. Because as you quite rightly said, myths are always a moral kind of exploration of something going on in society.

So really it's about sexual shame relates to the taboo of bestiality. And that's just what it's about. It's literally what it says on the tip. in this one. It's not too complicated in that sense. You know, I think that there is this kind of point to it because this thing happens and there is this baby born out of it, right? This minor tool.

This idea as well of it having to be locked away, the shame being physically taken away and locked underground. In a maze. This is my own thought really, but the maze looks a lot like a brain, right? And it's like subconscious. and it's like locking away this shame never to be spoken of again. And again, we get that hero, that same bloody thing again, where the male hero has to come in to end it.

Like a man needs to come in and put this right, you know. And I think it's really fascinating that it's double, double, triple shocking, that it's a woman that has committed the incest. I think definitely, right? When you kind of like look at this thing, it's like, where's the shame? I think the excessiveness of that story, plays into like the shock value of it to sort of justify what's happened here of something that needs to be kept secret and something that needs to be kept away as a lot of Greek monsters are.

What do you think the Minotaur has to be fed seven maidens and seven boys every few years? Like what addition to the narrative is that? Because they could have, I mean, I know what no one was thinking this through like with a subplot and stuff, but it's an interesting addition to the narrative. Like why is this creature now killing? Yeah, I guess it's kind of like double whack really. First of all, if the monitor was just born and disappeared, we wouldn't be able to explore the monstrous nature of the minotaur.

And the fact that he needs to eat bodies, human flesh, which is another taboo thing, there's no human sacrifice going on in Greece. That's not a thing. That shows how uncivilised he is, uncontrollable, monstrous, crazy. So there's a first point about that. that they adds to his monstrosity. The second point, I'd say, is that we need a way to introduce Theseus into the narrative

so we can come save everyone and sort the Minotaur out. So we need that addition of the maidens and the young men for him to come in. And I guess I said to really a third point as well then is really about the fact that he feasts on youth as well is kind of a bit more destructive because in lots of ways this is Athens' future. generation that he's feasting on.

So it's kind of like, in lots of ways it could be this idea that something that is shameful continues to have an impact every now and then it's continuing to have this impact. It's a cycle that needs to be broken, hence the sort of why they have to come every X number of years to come and be fed. It's all very hunger gamesy, isn't it? It is a bit hungry game. Isn't it? Yeah.

When I hear this story, I can't help but wonder, what is the fucking point? in Theseus. Like, seriously? It doesn't, like, is it like a pride thing that we're supposed to look at him and just, what? Like, he goes and he kills the monster, but we're not giving a lot of details. He does get the girl, but he ditches him on an island. He kills the monster, but he goes back and he forgets to change his sail so his dad dies. It's like, none of this, he seems to be being punished too.

It's like, what? Like, he doesn't sail off into the distance and become a king and live happily ever after. Like, it's such a weird story. Well, he sort of does later on. Oh, he does? Yeah, I mean, but he's in his heroic cycle. So the point is that when you're in your heroic cycle, you are going through difficult tasks

and you're trying to overcome them. And they're not always neat and tidy. But I mean, the point of Theseus is exactly that. Every single Greek myth you're going to find a monster, you're going to find a hero. You have to have it. It's like light and dark. The uncontrollable needs to be controlled by some bloke

in this example it's Theseus you know and also like the whole thing about him leaving Ariadne that's just him doing that thing that's the sort of thing

that men can do it's not like the Greeks would have gone how dare he he had gone yeah she'd served her purpose that was all right never mind

I'm glad his dad killed himself quite frankly horrible man but the lovely thing about myths is because they are so startlingly vague and bizarre, that different time periods and generations project their own

interpretation and meaning onto them. So they shift all the time. Like Medusa's myth shifts all the time. Has the Minotaur myth shifted very much? Has he ever undergone a process of reclamation? Has anyone ever wanted to tell his story? Not really. Unlike many of the monstrous female figures that we see so much interesting, there's not a lot around the Minotaur. It's not to say no one's been interested in him, but there's not been this massive resurgence of interest in his story other than, I guess, in the psychological aspects of sexual taboo

and bestiality and interest in that. But yeah, sadly, a little bit in reflection to how he was in Greek myth, in the sources, because there's not actually a prolific amount about the Minotaur in the source material. There's enough, don't get me wrong, but he was never even really that popular in Greek source material. And I would say it's continued. It's not that there's nothing.

It's not that there's nothing, but there's not the whole load. Picasso did some minor tori stuff, didn't he? Yeah, Picasso did. There's a few different artworks that he's done that relate to this kind of issue. And, you know, it's kind of an important feature in his work. And I think that the thinking behind this is that Picasso has some kind of personal interest in the Minotaur story and that he saw aspects of himself

in the Minotaur. I mean, it might be to do with obviously a Spanish ancestor. I don't want to get into Picasso's personal life. I don't know what he was up to. Not as good things. I'm not sure it's to do that he was into sort of bestiality

or anything. I'm not going to go that far. But I think, you know, kind of what the Minator represents the idea that Spain has a big kind of connection to balls. I think he was fascinating. it and kind of interpreted that in his own artworks.

I wouldn't say that's tantamount to like some movement of massive interest in the minor tour. That's one dude going, unless I'll look at this. And trying to understand it in his Picasso way as he does it in his sort of surrealist, strange, you know, kind of technique to look into it. So he just kind of just exists on the sort of the margins of myth, really, is this kind of strange half bull, half human thing. that just, again, doesn't get any lines of his own, doesn't, nothing in his own voice.

No, and that's the bit that's quite sad, isn't it? It's a bit like, you know, exactly what happens in the myth is happening now. You know, he's put underground and ignored and actually very few people have been that interested in him since the story. I wonder if what Picasso like, because who was a notorious fanny rat? He was, you couldn't keep him away long enough. Did you just call him a fanny rat? I did, yes, yes. I like that one. I've heard that one.

Is that a can-ism? I don't think he was a very nice person. I really don't. But I think maybe he saw the Minotaur as like this unrestrained male sexuality and potency, like this male lust that's running around a maze. Right. Okay. I mean, I don't know where he's getting that from in terms of the Greek myth.

His own pants, I think. Yeah, I think it's just like some element of fantasy. There's no real, it's not like the, it's not like the monotles down there shagging everyone for his whole life in Greek mid. He's probably a virgin, I would have said. Yeah, I should probably think so. As you say, it's to do with, I think, really more Spanish perspectives of what you mentioned earlier on about the bull and the masculinity that is very much associated with that in a Spanish context. So it's that notion. I guess what you mean, like there's like there isn't, then what they see as a bull as being like virulent and kind of powerful.

and I mean that would make some sense, right? I can see that. But I'm just a little bit distracted still by you calling him a fanny rat. What was that, was it? Yeah, a funny rat. Yeah, just a little bit distracted by that. So final question then.

Yes. Would you rather have the head of a bull or the bottom of a bull? Because he seems to have got a raw deal with that. Like if you've got to be a half bull, half man hybrid, you must have got the head of a bull and look down at your genitals and gone, oh, bloody yell.

Can I just kindly decline? all your offers of any party being a bull? Is that an option? I definitely don't want to get Daidus to make me into some kind of weird cow creature to climb into. No, no, definitely not. I'm all right, just being a full human if that's okay.

What do you want? What do you want? What do you want on you? I don't know, because like if you've got the bullhead, then you can be full monster running around, like being monstrous. But if you've got like your normal human top half and the bottom bit of a bull, like you can't be that monstrous. You'd still have to like go around Tesco's and everything, but just, to have the bottom half of a bull.

I think it'd be quite embarrassing. So I would, I'd go full top of bull. You know when people say, do you overthink? This might be something you might want to have a little reflection on. So just sit with it for a while, Kate, unpack that. And on that note, Jasmine, you have been marvellous. Again, you always are. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?

If they want to write to you and tell you if they would prefer the top or bottom half of a bull, Where can they find you? Well, they should probably immediately call a therapist if they're seriously thinking about it. Okay, if they can find me, I'm on Instagram at History underscore with underscore Soul. Catch me there. That's mainly where I'm at nowadays.

And yeah, thanks for having me again. Brilliant, brilliant time. Always is. hilarious. You've been so much fun. And we will see you again soon. See you soon. Thank you for listening.

And thank you so much to Jasmine for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like review and follow a lot. wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at betwixt at historyhit.com. Coming up, we've got episodes on how to give birth

like a medieval person and the first in our upcoming mini-series exploring sex work throughout history and we will be starting with none other than the ancient Romans. This podcast was edited by Tom Delaggy and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.

Join me again, Betwixt Sheets the History of Sex Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.