Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - The WW2 Witch Trial of Hellish Nell

Episode Date: October 10, 2023

What made a working class woman from Edinburgh become such a threat to British intelligence services during the Second World War, that they tried her as a witch?In today's episode, we're telling you the story of Helen Duncan, aka Hellish Brown, a medium who lays claim to being the last woman in England to be tried as a witch, culminating in her trial in 1944 under the 1735 Witchcraft Act.Joining us is Jess Marlton, manager of Bodmin Jail where all sorts of paranormal events take place.What made Duncan's performances so memorable? Why did her trial capture the public's imagination? And how does the 1735 Witchcraft Act live on today?Let's go Betwixt the Sheets to find out.This podcast was edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.Discover the past on History Hit with ad-free original podcasts and documentaries released weekly presented by world renowned historians like Kate Lister, Dan Snow, Suzannah Lipscomb, Lucy Worsley, Mary Beard and more.Get 50% off your first 3 months with code BETWIXT. Download the app on your smart TV or in the app store or sign up at historyhit.com/subscribe.You can take part in our listener survey here. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? We'll sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles.

Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. It's me, Kate Lister. You know what's coming? You know what we've got to do? Are you braced? Are you ready? Are you fully on alert and receptive to what is coming your way? Because this is the fair do's warning.

This is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things on a range of adult subjects and you should be an adult too. Have you got that? Do you really, because I'm not going through this again? But if you're still here, and if you still want to proceed with listening to this, after that, warning, well, fair do's, let's get on with it. It's the early 1940s. And while a war is raging across the channel in Europe, something altogether more supernatural is taking place on a gloomy night in Portsmouth. While many take their seats in this dimly lit room, a curtain is drawn at the front.

The audience is waiting with bated breath. A seance by the renowned Scottish medium Helen Duncan, aka Hellish Nell, is about to start. She might not be the best medium in the world, but she is one hell of a showwoman. During the seance, Helen manages to contact a dead sailor from a missing ship. She produces ectoplasm from her nose and other orifices. She chats away to her spirit guide. Everybody is on tenterhugs. But long before the D-Day landings will be undertaken,

and importantly for the government, Duncan will be behind bars, one of the last people to be tried under the Witchcraft Act of 1735. What do you look for a man? Oh, many, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect confidence of whatever my boss needs by just turning it up and pushing the button. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

Goodness, I'm beautiful time. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Terry. Come back to betwixt the sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. In the years following the First World War, spiritualism had boom period. A generation of people died and tens of thousands of their loved ones were left. behind mourning, denied the chance of ever saying goodbye to them properly. Mediums like Helen Duncan stepped up, claiming to be a conduit between people and their loved ones that they'd lost. Whether their claims were genuine is up for debate, especially when we scrutinise their methods, as we will find out in today's episode. Joining me to talk about

Helen Duncan, the last person to be tried under the Witchcraft Act of 1735, is none other than Jess Marlton, manager of Bodmin Jail, where they host all sorts of paranormal events. What kind of showwoman was Hellish Nell? Why were the UK government so eager to try her as a witch? And what did Cambridge University find out when it analysed her ectoplasm? I am ready to find out if you are. Welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Jess Malton.

How are you doing? We are gearing up for Okshoba. It is the spooky season, the season when things were bump in the night and in the day. So lots and lots going on. So delighted to speak to you about this particular subject. You are the manager of Bodman Jail. How did you get that job? What is that job? I got that job completely by accident. I didn't intend to. I'd always had an interest in the darker things of life. But I wasn't doing a career in the darker things of life. I was seeing a career up in Cambridge and London, and I decided that actually this wasn't quite what I wanted to do. Cornwall was where it was at, and I applied to do an MA at Falmouth University in Forgotten Monsters. They'd always interested me. And so I went and did that. And when I finished my MA, I realized that I might slightly have backed myself into a corner career-wise. Only I got excited about the Earl King. Many people did not. So I wrote to a couple of places in Cornwall that I thought might be on the same wavelength. And Bobinger was one of them. And they said, come along for

a chat. And I did. And they said, you can spin a good yarn. Would you like to come and do heritage tours? And I said, sure. And they eventually said, would you like to be the GM of the attraction? And I said, no, not really. You're going to. So it's fine. So I get the delicious job. That sounds amazing. So what is your connection to the woman that we're talking about today, Helen Duncan, possibly the worst medium ever? Or is she? Or is she? Or is she?

So Budman Jail was built in 1779 and quite evidently we didn't have witches here. We're too young. But we did have women incarcerated here under witchcraft acts subsequent to 1735. and so as part of our heritage tours, we looked into those and what was going on. And Helen Duncan, her name popped up as the last person to be tried under the Witchcraft Act of 1735. Now, technically she isn't the last person. She just has that reputation, that sting to her. But she is the last one of huge notoriety.

And it peaked my interest. Who is this woman who in 1944? is being held accountable for witchcraft, who is going in the old Bailey. What's her story? So that's how I ended up looking into her. It's a completely bonkers story. Why would someone be charged with witchcraft in 1944?

It's such a strange story, but I'm getting well ahead of myself. And by the way, later on, do tell me who actually was the last person to be convicted under witchcraft laws, because that's interesting. But who was Helen Duncan? Let's have an origin story.

Where does she come from? Who was she? So she's born in the late 1890s in Perthshire and Scotland. She is no one of note, actually, but she is a slightly rebellious child, which is where her nickname comes from, Helish Nell. This wasn't to do with her mediumship. This was to do with her behaviour as an infant. And certainly as an infant, she was categorised as being a bit odd. She was alleged to be clairvoyant.

And certainly she played up to this in her youth, but actually in the 1920s what we start to see her doing is branching out into mediumship. So she is picking out a career for herself and she is positioning herself as someone who can talk to the dead. Wow. She's not the first. There was quite a lot of them. And actually this had been a upscale and interest since, I guess, the Fox sisters started knocking on tables and communicating with the dead in the 1830s, but what we do see coming through with the rise of spiritualism is mediums like Helen Duncan. It was linked, well, I don't know if it was linked,

but certainly after the First World War and the Second World War, there was a huge surge of interest in mediumship. Absolutely. Evidently, we're not talking about the history and legacy of ghosts here, but I think the important thing to point out on this is that ghosts aren't static, our relationship with them changes throughout history and they exemplify different moods and morals and ethics of society at the time. For example, a medieval ghost is more than likely to break your door down and smash you around, whereas in the 1800s, they're likely to waft serenely across the floor

and impart some sort of moral wisdom and move on. So they do metamorphose and change. But what we're seeing in the 1800s is this upsurge in communication, The Industrial Revolution is coming through, how people talk to each other, the invention of Morse code, the telegram coming through, and suddenly we've got people saying, you can talk to the dead. And with that comes the rise of the spiritualist church. Not recognised actually until much later on in the 1800s, 1900s as an actual religion. The spiritualist movement held two principles. One was that when you die, your spirit goes on.

It isn't the end. You continue to evolve and learn. And the other part to that was that you can communicate with them. And that's why you're going to reach out to these evolving beings because they can impart moral and ethical wisdom and in comes our mediums. You need a conduit to talk to them. And that is predominantly women, which is curious in itself,

and women who can then channel the spirit of the day. dead. Why do you think it was a lot of women doing this? You did get male spiritualists and mediums, but overwhelmingly it was women. Why? Why was that? What do you think? I think because there is a crossover with the mystical here, isn't there? And there's a crossover, I guess, with women not having a role within religious institutions, but here was a way for them to do that and to do it credibly as well. and to peak interest. And I wonder how much of this is also a little bit of titillation. I was wondering that.

Yeah, this is the Victorians going, oh, it's a seance, and there's a lady all dressed in black who's bringing forth the magical energy, and therefore we can buy into this as opposed to a man in a cassock speaking to a congregation. I think there's quite a lot of that. You know, there's something a bit sexy about it.

What was she doing as a kid and as a young woman? that made people think she has the gift. And at what point did she start to take ownership of that and go, yeah, I'm definitely psychic? That was really, as I said, in the 20s, when she begins to carve out a career for herself. She gets married. And this clairvoyancy is one thing,

but there is a sort of fortune-telling mystic connection with that, whereas mediumship has got its roots in the spiritualist movement, and there is more kudos and credibility in it. It is a recognised discipline. And she gets the adulation and the financial reward that goes with that. I'd never really thought of them as being separate things. But they are, aren't they? To be a clavoid and a medium are two different things.

They absolutely are. And of course, there is, as you rightly pointed out, this research and interest following on from the First World War. I mean, this term is such a mixture of comedy and tragedy. Because, of course, what we're seeing after the First World War is this need for thousands of people to let go of loved ones. People they never got the chance to say goodbye to. People whose hands they didn't hold,

who don't even know where their bodies are. It's the lost generation. And I think for us today, the closest we're going to get to understanding that is to look at the Tim of the Unknown Soldier, who sits in absolutely the most prestigious spot in Westminster Abbey, even Royal. walk around him. This is the gravitas that is laid on this generation that was lost and the grief

and the emotion associated with that. So we can understand why in people's emotional distress, they might want to reach out to someone like Helen Duncan who said, I can talk to them. That makes sense. I can give you that reassurance. I'm not going to read your fortune. Not going to look at your tea leaves. Here is your peace of mind. That makes sense. Was Helen a good medium. I was talking to my producer just before we started recording and he was asking if I've ever been to a medium. No, so I've never seen a medium doing their thing. I don't know what is a good medium, but I'm going to guess you get good ones and bad ones. Where did Helen Duncan sit? There are two answers to this. The first one is let's look at what a medium does.

What's the bang for your buck? Because you're going to pay. Probably the equivalent of 12 pounds today to go and sit in a session. It's not just you and them. There are many people in there. And Helen predominantly practiced actually in a Plymouth above a chemist shop. It's very salubrious. So you put your money, up you go, and you're going to walk into a room, which has got chairs in it. And in the corner of that room, it's going to be what's called a cabinet. Now, what this was was a chair, and then you would draw the curtain in front of the chair.

So Helen is hidden from the audience while she channels spirit. Prior to that, there is a Rasmidaz, a show, a lifting of energy. This involves normally three women who would search Helen for hidden artifacts or implements that she might try and use. There is then also normally a song that's played or sung to try and up the tempo on this. Helen had some favourite songs that she liked to be sung. And then Helen is going to be tied to. the chair. Actually, it's show womanship as what it is. They're tied to

the chair. The lights cast down, one red light bulb left and with a handkerchief thrown over it. We're going to lower the tone. And then Helen is going to bring forth the dead. And she is going to do this through conjuring

ectoplasm. Okay. I mean, it is at this point where we're smiled slightly breaks out on my face because we're all going to go a bit ghostbusters at this point and go, She's going to do what? So Helen had the ability, not going to speak to there, but to conjure them into the room through producing ectoplasm.

And this, it's reported, would billow out from underneath the sheet, from underneath the curtain, sorry, but from behind which she is tied with moans and groans as she brings it forth. And the dead would rise from this and speak to members of the audience. So what's ectoplasm? I'm channeling Ghostbusters, but like, What is it? Yeah.

Before we did this, that was it. I saw ectoplasm. So actually, what it is is a spiritual energy. It was only named, actually, in the late 1800s from Greek origin, but used to donate a substance through which spiritual energy can manifest. Wow. And in Helen's case, she could produce a lot of it. So there you are in your room.

The dead or someone's dead are being conjured, and you are able to communicate with them, have the reassurance. Did that make her a good medium? I think it made her an entertaining medium. I think it made her an interesting and curious individual. Do I think she could actually do it? Is that what we're coming down to? Yeah.

If we look at the hard facts of this, the very short answer is no. She was absolute fraudster. She was completely playing her crowd. And there's evidence, right? So 1928, a photographer called Harvey Metcalfe attended a series of seances that Helen was conducting, and he took photographs. He's going to capture ectoplasm.

We need to see it in materialisation of spirits. Let's look at these things, particularly her spirit guide, Peggy. Let's get a picture of her. And now these photographs can be seen online, just Google it. I have looked at them, yes. Yeah. Wow. Oh, Helen.

Oh, audience, how did you fall for this? I mean, because here is, as we know, Peggy is a painted paper-mache mask doll. And not a good one. Next to her. And Helen's ectoplasm sort of see hanging from her nostril or the corner of her mouth is actually not ectoplasm at all. It is a mixture of cheesecloth, muslin, papamache, egg white. Quite astonishing. I mean, she committed, didn't she?

She committed to that bit. Absolutely. But even those photographs weren't enough to dissuade people that it wasn't the real deal. Now, whether we're all just incredibly gullible on the 1920s or whether we are desperately hoping it's true, there's that balancing act. And I'm not sure. But in 1931, ectoplasm that Helen produces is examined. And it's found to be made of lavatory paper, cheesecloth, as I said, egg white or mixed together. And it is assumed that this woman is regurgitating it.

That is the most remarkable thing about this performance. I read that she was doing that, and I'm so glad you mentioned it, because she was eating cheesecloth and Muslim and then vomiting it up on cue. Meeters, meters of the stuff. How is that part? Because when you see the pictures, it is like a curtain, isn't it? We gootation, right? So the finding is that prior to a medium,

session to a seance, Helen is capable of swallowing meters of cheesecloth. She doesn't only swallow it. She can also hide it inside other parts of herself, which she can then force out during a seance. I mean, never mind mediumship. That woman missed her calling. She should have been on the game. She'd have made her an absolute killing. I'll be back with Jess and Helen after this short break. There used to be a program called The Word, right, where they used to swallow when we go to take goldfish. She had got nothing on Helen. These strange groans and gruntings that could be heard coming from behind the curtain

are quite evidently Helen bringing forth her fake ectoplasm from all orifices. Wow. You know, sometimes people would complain about the sound. Helen frequently got nosebleeds. I'm a surprise. You know, you can see it coming out of her nose. All the same. There is still an investigation that goes on,

And it goes on by one of the biggest debunkers, Harry Price. Right. Now, this is bawly rectory, Harry Price. This is the guy who sets out to prove no such thing as ghosts, right? And he pays Helen, 50 quid, to conduct a number of sentences. He says, I'm going to come and watch you under controlled conditions. All right. I've looked at your ectoplasm, not sure what's going on.

Because Harry allegedly knows his stuff, he says, before this sounds they're going to x-ray you. Clever, right? We're going to see what you're going to. got in you, girl, at which point she reacts violently. She screams, she shouts, she shouts, she runs out into the street, and she makes a massive scene. You're not touching me. And Harry Price's report, you ask me if she is sexy. I think there's definitions are sexy. So Harry Price says, imagine a 17 stone woman clad in black satin tights locked to the railings screaming at the top of her lungs.

Only pacified when her husband comes out, who they then believe she slips the cheesecloth to in the street before she's caught. Cunning. To give her her due credit, I would never have thought of that. The lights are low and you've got your little red light bulb on and there's curtains,

maybe a smoke machine or something, and you're kind of already in the frame of mind of like, I'm going to see some weird shit. It would never once occur to me that somebody would be able to puke up a tablecloth covered in egg way. I just would never think of it. And all of this to the background is of her favourite song, south of the border.

So go on Spotify, play that, and you're in a Helen Duncan's seance. There we are. There's the energy coming through. And you might get the chance to speak to your loved one. Yeah. It is a curious mix. And I think the other thing that's particularly curious about people like Helen Duncan is this wasn't just mediumship for the rich.

No. This is everybody, all in together. Yeah. Experiencing the same thing, which probably also explains the popularity, right? She hasn't pushed herself into a corner. She can talk to them all. Wow. Yeah. Loes of stuff.

So she gets busted a few times, doesn't she? She gets fined too because of the result actually of the examinations held into the only 19th artist, but it doesn't stop her. Can't keep a good girl down. You absolutely can't. And she's actually fined under the vagrancy. Act, which to loop us back into what we originally decided talking about, you know, the last individual prosecuted under the Witchcraft Act, the vagrancy act was often used for

mediums as a means of prosecution to fine for alleged misconduct. The vagrancy Act has actually been introduced after the Napoleonic Wars, really to get people off the streets and rather unfairly to move travellers on, so don't practice out the back of your caravan, do one. Right. Right. So it's encompassed under it. But in Helen's case, they are not going to throw that act after her for the final move. They're going to go witchcraft with her. That's a leap, though, isn't it?

It's a leap from running down the street shrieking in your underwear and being what is effectively quite a crap medium. Let's be honest. I mean, she's a good show woman, but she's not talking to the dead. How does it end up that the government get involved and that she's prosecuted? Because she's not that significant. She's just another crank. She's a crank medium talking crap. in my local pub tonight.

I don't know if they're going to vomit up cheesecloth, but they're not of government military significance. So what on earth does Helen do? How does she get herself into that jam? On the back of her seances, there is a naval lieutenant who gets to hear about her. He's in Portsmouth where she's practicing, and he decides, I'm going to go along.

I'm going to go and see what all the fuss is about. And he is so disgusted by, what he sees at the Seance by the sheer fakery as he says about it, that he reports her to the police. Wow. And she is duly arrested. And an investigation

begins. I know it's at this point that she might have expected to have received a fine just as she had done previously. There's nothing different. But the real difference here is the reason the naval lieutenant actually went, which is that he had heard that

Helen had previously spoken to a sailor who had died at sea. Okay. This is his neck of the woods, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. So not only that, but it's a sailor who was lost on a boat, HMS Barham. And Helen claims to have spoken to this individual. After death. Right?

Yeah, he's dead. Okay, okay. The issue with all of this was that the HMS Barham had been sunk, had been lost at sea. And it had been lost at sea in the early 1940s, and the government had not released that information. Hello. Right? So over 900 souls are lost at sea. It's torpedoed by a German submarine.

And the government, in 1941, it's not going particularly well for them. They don't really want to release information to say, we've lost a ship. And they also don't want to give that information. I'm sure the Nazis new, but to amplify their victory. Now, some people would have known the families of the loved ones, but it wasn't public knowledge. So this naval lieutenant is going, this woman might be the real deal. I'm going to go check her out, right? Because she has claimed she's got the ship.

She's spoken to someone who's dead who's been on that boat. How did she do that? That's not vomiting cheesecloth. How did she didn't have a correct one? She didn't actually manage to prophesize something, did she? There are several twists in this tale. This is one of them, isn't it? Yeah.

Because suddenly, we've got a real situation on our hands of something that she couldn't possibly maybe have known. Yeah. She's not related to anyone on that boat. Did she hear it through her say, maybe? But actually, we've got our curiosity peaked. Yeah. But he goes to the seance and he says,

she's fake. is appalling and he reports there and she's arrested. But how does she end up in front of the old Bailey? Well, the argument is quite evidently that they're going to make an example of her. Now, they're either going to make an example of her because they want to shut down fake mediums, right? You can't go around in 1944 saying you're talking to the dead and playing on public grief. You can't do that. That's one argument. The other argument, as you've already alluded to, is she's the real deal. And the government have gone, 1994,

we're planning a big one here, lads. We need to get any suspicion of information leaking out, shut down. And we've got a medium in Portsmouth who's talking to dead sailors. We need to just put her somewhere that is not in the public space. We're going to do a show trial. we're going to put her in the old Bailey you know it's 1944 the little blitz is happening gone with the winds in in the cinema

the press are having a field day because there's a witchcraft act 1735 and a 17 stone woman dressed in black presumably with thick tan stockings on being tried under that act for seven days it's not even a short trial why was she tried under the witchcraft act why didn't they just get her under the military secrets

or espionage do they think they could have argued she was a spy, a Nazi spy. Because then you're admitting that she has ability, right? Ah, okay. So it's under the 1735 Witchcraft Act, because 1735 Witchcraft Act was a game changer. It was a watershed moment. The Witchcraft acts previously are well-trodden root.

It is, I think, probably safe to say, and I wish, I would rather I'm not doing anyone who was affected by them a disservice, because I actually think that the, persecution of individuals under those acts is one of the biggest genocides unacknowledged action in this country but any witchcraft out before that basically said in a nutshell if you converse with demons and devils well have you you know this is matthew hopkins this is salem over in america right and in fact the last person executed for witchcraft is 1727 janet horn

done last woman out but 1735 the witchcraft act suddenly changed track entirely and it said this, no such thing as witches. No such things as people who can perform magic. They don't exist. What there are are fakers.

There are people who are going to sell you false prophecies. People who claim they can talk to dead. They can't. They're going to take your money. And the reason they went for Helen under that act is because you can lock them away under that act. And what she locked away? Yeah.

Right. And Helen is charged with conjuring the dead and doing it under fake circumstances. I see. That's why they're using it. They're saying, you're a big fake. Totally unreliable. How did Helen defend this?

That must have placed her in a really difficult situation because she can't, for professional reasons, go, I'm a total fake, it's all shit, don't even worry about it, or plead guilty. But then if she says, no, I am the real deal, then now she's a real problem for them. How does she defend it? herself against this? What was the defence? The defence as witnesses, absolutely loads of them

come through the court. It's seven-day trial, right? And the public gallery is packed. And witness after witness comes forward to say, she channeled my aunt. I spoke to my granny, I spoke to my son, I spoke to this, she's credible, she's real. None of it actually counts in the end. Wow. Because they still take her down and say, you can't prove it. Without evidence, do it now. In fact, And they even suggested during the trial that she do a seance in the courtroom. That seems a bit mean. Slightly. She ranted and railed, but actually she couldn't prove that she could actually do this.

And she wasn't offered the opportunity to perform a seance in the old baby. Absolutely brilliant. But no, she is found guilty. And how long was she sent away for? Nine months, Holloway Prison. Wow. Was it easy time for her or no? By this point in prisons, you know, our reforming system is well in place.

right? So she's going to sit there and idle. She is quite neatly packed away, is she not? The walk and tick over, she is swept to one side. But it never actually answers the question of, how did she know about future? How did she do it? Right? That's fascinating. Actually, unless people are so hugely gullible, answer that all the people who stood up to provide witness for her and say, she's the real deal. So either there is something that she has some sort of and she puts this show on. That's understandable. I suppose you're selling a story. Or she is just the biggest faker than ever there was. But 1944, you're going to bring someone to trial under an act from 1735. That's a bit embarrassing, isn't it? That is a bit embarrassing. Did they

get rid of the act shortly? You can't still charge someone with witchcraft, can you? No. Okay. So in 1951, the witchcraft act is repealed, it becomes the fraudulent mediums act. Okay. The Faudent Mediums Act that says, can't fake it. Absolutely cannot lead people on. You've got to be credible. This again brings us back to Bobman's jail because I know that act.

I know it very, very well because that is the act that in 2005 caught Derricka Cora out while they were doing most haunted at Bonn in jail. And it was in the civil wing, the medium, right, for Most Haunted, Yvette Fielding, her show, hugely popular program, addictive stuff of an evening. But there was some suspicion raised about whether Derek was genuine, whether he was making things up. And so they fed him fake information prior to the show.

And they used a must. a made-up name of a prison guard that South African that allegedly worked at Bob Minchale and they whispered about this, they spoke about this before most wanted started to film and Derek claimed

he'd channeled him oh dear his name which actually was an anagram of Derek Faker oh dear oops absolutely rightly so offcom investigated and although they didn't throw the

Fawdinent Mediums Act at Derek Kora, he was dismissed from the show. That Fielding very rightly stood up and said, we cannot have someone on the show who is misleading the public. No, it just falls apart then. Consequently, he went. Ofcom then made a ruling in line with the Faudulent Mediums Act, which said this, you do a show like that,

you have got to put the tagline for entertainment purposes only on it because you can't believe it's true. And if you try and find the bottom in jail, Most Haunted episode, you can't find it, because it's not an Amazon Prime for that reason. Oh, wow. And I know exactly where they were. They were in cell four on the ground floor of the naval wing

and the pouring rain as it came through the roof. It doesn't anymore. That's where most wanted to wear. Now, that act, the Fortinet Mediums Act, becomes the Consumer Act. Okay. So next time you buy a washing machine or you're purchasing something that's got,

it must do this, you're actually buying something theoretically under the Witchcraft Act of 1735. That's bonkers, isn't it? I can't help thinking about all your other ghosts at Bobmond Jail who were desperate to get on the telly on Britain's most haunted, and now Derek O'Cohara stuffed them all, and they can't be on the telly now.

Well, they can, because actually we do hold paranormal investigations here. They're hugely popular, and in fact, we are holding a seance on Halloween. We've held one last year. We're holding one this year. We're holding another one at midwinter, and they are set out correctly. We do not claim that anyone will actually materialise before you, but what a wonderful building to be able to do that in.

My final question to you is what became of Helen Duncan? So she does her nine months. And then what? Where does she go? What happens to her? She goes back to Scotland eventually. She carries on practising. She doesn't stop. And in fact, she is fined again in the 1950s for faking it.

And it's actually very shortly after that episode that she dies. And she dies in Edinburgh. Now, I was up in Edinburgh about a month ago, a wonderful city that is. And I was vehemently hoping I'd be able to find her grave. I fancied just popping along and saying, Cheers, Helen. He gave us a cracking story, lady. Did she?

Did she? Not she? She? Not much in the history of mediumship. Well done, but she is not listed where she's buried. I didn't find her. Am I right in thinking that some of Helen's descendants are still fighting her conviction under the witchcraft act, which seems fair enough because no matter what you might say ever, she wasn't a sod in witch.

This is exactly the point, isn't it? She isn't a witch and she wasn't performing witchcraft, and what they're getting her for is the conjuring of spirits in a fake situation. I think absolutely there is an argument for that. But on the flip side, again, is the individuals who, potentially she was fooling, who did go with blind hope that they might find peace. Maybe they did find peace. Maybe we draw a line under it and say she did them a service and they did have arrest as a result of her cheesecloth and egg white.

It's like a really bad episode of the Great British Bake Off, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, Jess, you have been just wonderful to talk to you. It's so much fun. I've been bored to know more about you and the work that they do, where can they find you? So you can find us at Bombing Jail, our website, bombinjail.org. You'll be able to find us there. All our paranormal events are listed on there, as well as our heritage tours.

History is a gift. We have an obligation to pass it on, and we do that joyously here. And with sensitivity, we are a prison after all. But all information is there. All on social media, Instagram, Facebook. You'll find us listed. Thank you so much for talking to us. I've had a blast. My pleasure.

Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Jess for joining me. How good was she? I'd love to talking to her. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or if you just fancy dropping by to say hello, you can email us at betwixt at historyhit.com. We have got episodes on everything from Hitler's sex life, to the The history of asexuality, all coming your way. This podcast was edited by Tom Delagie and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.

Join me again between the sheets, the history of sex scandal in society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.