Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Underwear: Codpieces, Loin Cloths & Thongs

Episode Date: September 24, 2024

Whatever your underwear preferences, have you ever wondered about their history?From the Tudor codpiece to Victorian bloomers, they've all got a story to tell. Sharing them with Kate today is Nina Edwards, author of The Virtues of Underwear: Modesty, Flamboyance and Filth. This episode was edited by Max Carrey, the producer was Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Sign here for up to 50% for 3 months using code BETWIXTYou can take part in our listener survey here.Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. You are here and you are listening to Bertwixter Sheets, the History of Sex, Scandal and Society. And if the name of the podcast hadn't already clued you in, well, I have to tell you that this is an adult podcast

spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects, and you should be an adult too. Do you feel safer? I certainly feel safer. Let's do it. There's boxes, knickers or straight up commando. What have you gone for today, betwixters? 100 betwixta bonus points if you happen to be sporting a codpiece. Something I think might actually be due for a comeback.

No? Part of Tudor Sheik? Maybe not. I mean, apart from looking quite impressive and, well, masculine to say the least, the codpiece also provides a handy storage solution for loose change, a little snack, perhaps. Maybe even your car keys. Yeah, I actually think that we could all do with the codpiece, not just men. Why should the likes of Henry VIII and his lot just have all that fun? But if you're curious to know where the likes of the codpiece and other garments came from,

then pull up your breeches, straighten your bloomers, and let's get on with it. What do you look for a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning it up and pushing the funny. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, my beautiful dance. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Dary.

Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with the Kate Lister. Underwear is definitely something I take for granted. I mean, pretty much unless something dramatic has happened, it's always there, right? But of course, underwear has its own history too, and it is a fascinating one at that. And a big thank you to one of our listeners, Elizabeth, for sending in the suggestion for this episode.

episode. And if you've got some suggestions, don't forget that you can email us with your ideas at betwixt at history hit.com. Love listening to the show. I was wondering, would you do an episode on the history of knickers? I've read recently that in the UK or in Britain, women only started wearing knickers from like Victorian period onwards. And I was thinking how that must have affected women's ability to do certain activities or like practically like dealing with periods. And even if it affected women's safety. So I just thought it would be really interesting to find out more about the history

of women wearing knickers. Why, thank you, Elizabeth. I too share your curiosity and not just for knickers. I mean, why should we stop there, right? Helping us rummage through this history is Nina Edwards, author of The Virtues of Underware, Modesty, flamboyance and filth.

Undercrackers at the ready, Betwixters. Let's do it. Hello, and welcome to Betwixta sheets. I'm very well indeed. I'm thrilled that you're here because, Dana, look what you've done. You've written a book. That's incredible. The virtues of underwear, modesty, flamboyance and filth. This is a thing of beauty. Are you terribly proud of it? I'm nervous about it at the moment because not many people have looked at it. I hope it's all right. I enjoyed writing it. It's wonderful. So this is a history of underwear. basically, which is absolutely incredible. But can I ask you, why did you write this book? Do you remember the moment when you thought, I need a book about underwear? I was writing a previous book about white clothing. Okay. I found myself writing a lot about underwear for perhaps obvious reasons. And my editor said, not too much, white, that's a separate book. So that's what happened. And I was delighted.

I just, but one has to face the sort of grimaces and moves of people who think it's very odd to write about underwear. I don't think it's remotely odd and I'm thrilled that you have. I understand that there'll be people out there going, it's a history of what, but underwear is something that we all live in every single day. It's a part of our lives. Of course it has a history. Exactly. What is that history? Dare I ask, is there a moment in history? where you would consider it the start of underwear? Is that even something that you can trace?

And what do we mean by underwear? Because it's not just wearing something underneath something. Well, I think it is, and that's the difficulty. So often it's put down to tribal clothing, or Aboriginal, as it's often referred to, or ancient Egyptian and Shenti. But if it's the only thing being worn, of course you have to look at it.

but it isn't strictly speaking underwear, is it? It's something that's out in the open for all to see. Yes. I rather like this. So it's something deceitful, you could say, if you want to up the ante about underwear. There's something hidden, and one might be wearing what somebody would not expect of you,

of the sort of person you appear to be. So it might be lucky old underpants. just to be glamorous. Or it might be somebody who's very modest in their clothing. But underneath, they're wearing something rather exciting or certainly expensive and glossy. Oh, I like that. The kind of the secrecy of it.

I'm trying to think now of even what is the function of underwear. Bras to hold your boobs up. Yes, I get that. But like sort of knickers and underwear. I'm trying to think, like, what actual practical function do they have? Is it just tradition that we wear them? Well, no. It's said that the drawers appeared in the 19th century,

but what did women do when they were menstruating to hold their rags in place? Yeah, they must have worn something. It might have been probably, I guess, like an apron just to hold it in place. Because of the nature of how we wear underwear, and it gets worn out more than other clothing, or clothing in general, it's often not there to bear evidence except for the most exotic clothing or expensive, I should say, affluent clothing, which is a pity.

But occasionally we do have evidence. And there are some strange tales of made-up underwear, which I found fun to look into. Before we get to the made-up underwear, and I definitely want you to tell that story, what would you say is the first evidence of what we would now call underwear? At what period in history can we trace this back to? I should say that since I'm no ancient historian,

ancient historians often say that it's a Sumerian terracotta relief 3,000 years ago, because there are pictures of women in what looks like a loincloth and another woman in what looks like a pair of briefs except it appears to be knotted, so not sewn clothing. Notted. I reckon there are more. we may not have a drawing of them, but it's likely that people before then needed to protect their genitals and breasts.

But you could certainly say 3,000 years ago, but as I say, it's not hidden clothing. No, no. What surprised me about the history of underwear, I suppose because when you say underwear to me, I immediately think of pants, or to our American listeners. You know, like wife, rants, thongs, thongs. But they're actually quite a modern invention for an awful lot of our history is we weren't wearing knickers. Well, as I say, they must have. I mean, I think the fact that where women talking about this makes it...

Underwear was something that wasn't talked about, I reckon. I think you're probably right. If somebody is not affluent, they would have been, say, in the medieval period, they would have worn some sort of shift when it was cold, and you wouldn't have underwear, would you? You might, if you had large breasts, you might bind your breasts, just as you might bind your legs and bind your feet for lack of shoes. So I think that's where underwear comes in. So it is fulfilling a purpose. And of course, what you'd do with a baby before they were able to be continent, that would be something that you'd wrap them in something under that could easily be changed.

Or in China, you'd just have a gap. but underwear that you open out. And apparently there's a great surge of popularity in China for that sort of non-nappy training all over again, which sounds like a great thing. I mean, I'd have thought. We're probably, I want you to tell me when knickers and pants that we'd recognise today first started coming in.

But am I right in thinking that for a long time, what you'd have is they weren't quite bloomers, but it was almost like crotchless long shorts, obviously if you're a woman and you've got all these petticoats and layers, you kind of need fast access if you want to nip to the loo to just put it as bluntly as it is. Precisely, well put. Yeah, that's true. And it's also true that washing was a huge problem. And of course, underpants get dirtier than other bits. Yes. Yes. And it's better to be able to open it out so you don't risk marking it up because, I mean, lack of water, lack of proper soap.

All these restrictions mean that it wouldn't have been practical to have underwear for all, but those in height right at the top of society. I like the way I noticed that some fashion trends then became underwear, then became fashion trends again. So there was this constant flow backwards and forwards, early 19th century men's trues. We've all seen them in costume dramas, lovely sort of crept, and a young male boy. sort of tightly ensconced in what looks like very tight cream bias cloth of some sort of sometimes leather. Then from that we get the long job of sort of I was born under a wandering start.

And then again, I mean, look at how many kids now wear some sort of jogger or, you know, just pull on trues in various degrees. of tightness. And then it's all the business of whether or not they become outerwear if the person in question is going commanding. I was just thinking that about underwear made outerware. I wonder if you could tell me a bit about the history of the cod piece because that is a fascinating underwear, outerware, because obviously I've read about cod pieces for a long time and it wasn't until I actually I saw one in a museum. I didn't realize quite how penis. like they actually are.

It's like it wasn't just like a little gesture for a covering. It was a full on bulge that had been put there. But what is the origin of the codpiece? Where did that come from? Well, originally it's protection. I mean, if you see it, I have written about armour quite a lot. I'm quite interested in that being a part of the body that one wanted to perhaps most protect.

But what I find interesting is that in the modern take on them, we assume it's something to do with sexiness, with male, with the penis. But actually, it's probably more likely originally being to do with protection, but also just procreation, the male line and therefore the testicles. And I find that very satisfying fact. Corsets were used and crinolins lit in women. It was used as a sort of pocket. so that if you had venereal disease, it could hold nice poultice for you.

Or it might hold an orange and a bit of money. Oh my God, I didn't know that. So when did the codpiece come in? What kind of time period are we talking about here? In Broygal, you see the mad sort of drunken men with just quite plain cod pieces. But we think of it. We associate it, I do anyway, with the Renaissance, but they were around centuries before for this purpose

because it was easy to quickly take off if you needed to pee, but it was braggado. It's something to show your male status. Wouldn't you just love to know who the first person was to turn up to a night out with his mates with a codpiece on and just what must of that conversation have been like? Just what is that thing? But it caught on. Has it ever come back? Has there ever been a modern...

Yes! Oh, it has? No, completely in high fashion. You must have all those galliano had them, I think, three years ago. But it's become the penis rather than the walls. Yes. You can imagine those sorts of galliano. It's all black leather.

But I think it would be quite difficult to wear on the street. What do you think? I think that it would be, I think, if you were going to wear that round Leeds, which is where I'm from, I think that would raise a few eyebrows. But if you're wearing it for protection, I think it would be very much needed for anyone. So Coppies is a practical. I think we often forget that. And underwear is practical. So we're thinking about something like a bra. Yeah.

Presumably women have always had to hoist their boobs up. They've always, you know, it's difficult running. Well, no. Originally, they were pushed up rather than hoisted from above, because that's what corsets did. Corsets have got to be one of the most enduring pieces of underwear in our history. Indeed, but, and they've always existed, but mostly for, again, for those of means. I keep reminding myself of that because it's very easy to start thinking that, oh, this is what everybody was doing. As to some extent, with Primark, we can feel we can have.

a little taste of what's high fashion. But people couldn't, and there were also sumptory laws, which might not have been very effective, but nevertheless they were inhibiting. Back with Nina, after this short break. By the time we've got like to the 18th century, corsets or stays, as they were called, seemed to have been quite common.

And there's a bit of a myth that's grown up that they were laced so tight people were fainting and had five-inch waists and couldn't breathe and all of those things. What's your take on that? I think you might get yourself very tightly laced for a party. Yeah. But you'd give yourself another few inches dated every day.

But of course that's how they were sold. And there was an awful lot of sort of male hatred of the way women were ruining their bodies, distorting them all to lure men unfairly towards them. Yeah, that's what we do. You look at them at the V&A. I mean, some of them are tiny, but they. tend to be the wedding dresses. I don't know. I spoke to somebody who makes wedding dresses recent, but she was saying how even young women with beautiful figures, they're not used to wearing something at all corseted. They find it very difficult because they've got strong,

quite relatively muscular bodies. Or they'll turn up for a fitting in a sports bra and she wants them to be in a tailored bra because the dress, you know, this sort of fashion. for giving the breasts like the hour glass figure yeah en bon poise and and then

so she had to provide them with the right sort of bra which she will produce in the wedding dress itself or things like the arms are too muscular so they can't raise their arms in their lovely wedding dress

when I think about the history of underwear another word that pops in my head is bloomers tell me about Tell me about blooms. Where did they come from? What were they for? I mean, sports, the whole of sport is a very interesting way of looking at underwear. But it's an early 19th century example, turning into the 20s, where women were wanting to bicycle and perhaps, you know, other gentler sports. But if they had shorter skirts, which was, when you think about it, it's the end of the crinolum period. They wanted skirts that they could get out of the way.

So some sort of bloomer provided that. But when you look at them, they don't seem to offer great ease of them. Sometimes they're linen or even cotton if it's available. Sometimes they seem to be made of tweed. Tweed knickers. Tweed knickers, which is a nice idea. But it's a bit Vivian Westwood in a way, isn't it? That is, isn't it?

So if anyone's listening and they're not sure what a bloomer is, how would you define bloomers? What's a garment got to look like before you can go that? That's a pair of bloomers. It's a pair of knickers that comes down to the ankle and they're with a closed crutch. Yeah. And that's the important bit because so many people were so used to underwear being open for ease of access. Were they the first closed crotch underwear or had they been other versions of that been around?

I certainly haven't seen any that are dated earlier. But I'm limited by what is available at the very very. various museums. I'd have thought that's quite likely because otherwise why would it matter? It's just inconvenient. And I have no evidence for this. But one of the problems with the crinolin, which is earlier, was that occasionally people would fall over or get tripped up and would expose themselves. That would be an issue. There were many, many cases that I read. And sometimes people were wearing no underpants or they'd be wearing

open underpants, thereby still, it's still being very embarrassing. So I think it's quite likely that some women might have sewn them. Might have come from there. Yeah, that's very interesting point. So we think of Victorian underwear, we tend to think of it as laced up and it's all very,

it's literally like a bottom layer against your skin and things were covered up. When do we start getting what we might now recognise as modern underwear, full back pants and briefs. Well, one thing we needed was some elastic. Elastic, I'd forgotten about elastic. Later, all the advantages of Lycra for all of us. But before that, if there wasn't elastic, you had to have bulk in order to be able to get it over your hips and then draw it in with a lace.

But if you could put a piece of elastic in there, or at first, I think it was just used. even to make early bras more comfortable because you could put a little bit of elastic. For some reason, it only worked in short pieces at first. To have an elastic waistband made all the difference. But then, of course, ensued all the jokes about elastic suddenly twanging. Right, of course. They have to arrive with elastic,

which I'm guessing is 20th century as the technology. arrives. Pre-first World War, people were still using laced, I mean, laced cotton drawers, sometimes linen, but more of cotton was getting through from the Far East. I mean, the whole study of fabric, I wish I was more of a scientist, I've tried to cover it. It's completely fascinating because it affects our lives in a ways we are not aware. What about bras? Because bras don't have to have elastic in them.

It's better if they do. but they don't have to. And corsets fulfilled that function of kind of support and holding everything in. But as we move into the 20th century, the flappers, for example, they were famously say no to the corsets. So when do we start getting bras that we might recognise today? When do they start turning up?

Where you're suggesting amongst the flappers, those handkerchief bras, early handkerchief bras. What's a handkerchief braw? Just for anyone that's not sure. So two triangles with a little cord. But that only works for somebody with a pretty flat chest. I was going to say that wouldn't support much. Not at all.

But so what was happening was women that managed, you know, it was very difficult if you were plump for that fashion. People would find their breasts or if you'd had children or slightly flappy breasts. They'd have little pockets. I was shown these at the Wonderful Museum of Wales where they actually had little pockets. you'd pop your breast in and then pull the strap up. Sounds horrendous. There were very few periods in the history of fashion, it seems to,

when men and women dressed similarly. And that's one of them. And it doesn't mean that there weren't a lot of women wanting to wear bras that had to work something out themselves. And fundamentally, it was binding. Or they were using previous corsets on the sly. because it just didn't work for them otherwise. And Lycra's changed all that.

Thank God, right? Indeed. I mean, you said right at the beginning of the interview about how somebody might be wearing some very racy underwear underneath very casual clothing and you wouldn't know, has there always been a tradition of kinky underwear? Because it seems like underwear falls into various categories. You've got your functional underwear,

like your nice marks and Spencer's pants and a sensible bra, But then we all know what sexy underwear is and it's not very comfortable, you know, your stockings, your basks, your fistnuts. Is there a history of that of fetishising underwear, of it being sexy? It must always have been sexy to glimpse parts of the body that are not usually seen. I mean, in my lifetime, I remember to see a bra's shoulder strap was considered vulgar. Really? Whereas now it's quite ordinary, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

You can play with the colour. You can have a pink bra and a green top or something and you see that as not, and you're not trying to be particularly sexy. You're just enjoying that play with colour. Yes. And there's always, I mean, sadomasochism isn't new, isn't modern. So nor is the desire for the erotic and the forbidden. And so I think there must always have.

been, when you think of those, of the Spanish court, and underneath that extraordinarily sort of tiny waist, heavily corseted black leathers and silk satins, I can't think that there were big white linen drawers. They don't exist, is my sad response, truthful response. They're just not there. Yeah. Do you know one garment that is definitely, it's very sexy and I think it's only really used to be sexy today, although people may well email is in and go, no, I wear them all the time. Stockings. Yeah. Stockings.

They're not very practical. I can't think of anyone that would choose stockings over tights unless it's for a sexy reason. In earlier generations, it was all that was available for, if you're sort of, I'm thinking of the prime of Miss Jean Brody and they're in stockings, aren't they? But heavy, beige, pink, lyle ones with nasty suspenders. Where did stockings even come from? I mean, before we ended up with, you know, rows of them in An Somers and you can order them from this, that, and they were practical. They were practical hosery. 13th century nights.

I mean, you'd need something under your metal protective armour to stop the chafing. And suspenders were needed to keep them in place. You know, the sort of tights you see sometimes that are shaped like suspenders, that are. sort of open crotch. Yes. Yes. And that, I've seen, I've seen those in Tullingen in Germany, and just the remains of this power of linen.

The one I've seen in some Victorian photographs when they're, well, they're basically pornographic, erotic photographs. Is the stocking, is it kind of looks like a very long sock? It goes up, it's just over the knee, and then they've got it tied on with a ribbon. Is that what we would call a stocking? Yes, most certainly. I mean, you wouldn't need it to go to the top because you've got so many skirts and petticoats.

But for most people, again, to sort of come back to what most people had to wear, the hand-knitting stocking business was something you often did for people with money to make money. And it would be hard to be able to afford it yourself because the feet get smelly. Speaking for others, it made sense. therefore, if you didn't have a lot of means, to bind your legs for warmth if you needed to, but have a separate binding, or to have stockings that stopped at the ankle and bind your feet,

because that could be more easily sort of probably thrown away when it got beyond stink and then put a new piece on. I'll be back with Nina after this short break. Men's underwear used to be equally as elaborate to women's underwear. Like going back to the 18th century, medieval period. And knights, like you said, I used to teach a medieval literature course and we looked at what knights would do to get ready. And oh my God, it's elaborate. They had what, you know, you're saying earlier at the equivalent of long johns, but they also had stockings and they

had vests. Their underwear. And little waist corsets too. Yes, corsets. They wore corsets. And their underwear is just kind of dwindled into this little brief thing, hasn't it? Whereas women's is still very elaborate. I think we must blame the Industrial Revolution and poor men, really. But you see what clothes are, even now, that they have access to, seems so much more limited. We can play with different gendered clothing, can't we? I mean, I'm... We can't see it.

I'm wearing a man's shirt, and another day I can wear something very different. Whereas for a man to take on to wear a floral camisole, it's more difficult. It's braver. It is. it would certainly be noticed more than a woman in a man should. I have to say the least. So it's to do with the great male renunciation of fashion and the great machines of Europe. I suppose we give, like so much of it is practical, isn't it?

Because I can sit here and kind of wistfully, like, bemoan, oh, we don't put the top. But I don't want to get in a corset every day. I don't want to put suspenders on every single day. I'm quite happy with just my comfy pants. but the 20th century in the 21st century, that saw something really interesting happening in the major fashion houses and Madonna, who also did it.

Underwear is outerware. Then underwear is doing something different. What's your take on Madonna with her pointy bra that moment? I think it was exciting, and I think she was right to draw attention to the beauty of that sort of those peachy satins, almost like shell work. But it's also interesting that that has allowed in

a lot of clothing for people changing gender. I don't know if I'm putting that the right way. It allows far more variety in a relatively liberal society anyway. No, I think it's exciting, but I also think we think slightly more realistically that we can change our bodies with our underwear now. We do, don't we? So not just to get a different shape, but we think, you know, I can stop my bottom jiggling or whatever, whatever it is that upsets one.

make it jiggle. It's not all that often or not true. Or people are having operations and then they're wearing, or those sort of extraordinary underpants with added bottom. Yes. They're now being produced for men too. But it is a very Western, I think, for the affluent world. I think so.

So it's just as a final question. What do you think is the future for underwear? Do you think there's going to be any big shifts in underwear fashion that's going to come back? Or do you think we are where we are and it's just comfy and stretchy? I think it's moving much faster than it ever was like fashion in general.

So we're going to get much more of this coming and going. And for people interested in fashion, you're going to be able to play with these different shapes much more than you were. And I think that's interesting. Did you notice last year there was a fashion in London young girls wearing fishnet stockings

and shorts or fishnet stockings and little mini-skirts and I thought that was interesting they hadn't worked out that shorts made you sort of really enjoy looking dashing in such gear to wear a mini-skirt

meant you had to keep checking that it wasn't rising up at the back and made a rather inelegant movement but if you're asking me I think there's a huge change in the possibilities of what bras can do for people. But that's, again, to do with modern materials. Because that's the Holy Grail, isn't it?

Is to get a bra that our big-boobed sisters can wear that looks attractive and is comfortable? Exactly, exactly. And they've moved on from, as I say, I'm no scientist, but I think it's moving on from Lycra to fine fabrics. But then, on the other hand, we've been having very hot summer. if you use these artificial fibres, they're meant to be getting better at breathing

and not being hot and sweaty. But we all know that the most comfortable thing to wear on a hot day is cotton. Yes. How restrictive such modern changes are going to be we'll have to see. When I was last in London, I noticed, and I don't know if it was just the people around me,

but this might be a thing. Lots of young women who were wearing jeans, but they had all of the flies open. And I was like, is that a thing? I don't want to do that. But is that a thing now? Yes. No, you're right.

And sometimes pulling the pockets open too. I kept wanting to say to them, no, stop it, because it's almost, they're exposing themselves in a way I don't think they realize. But I was more worried that their pants were going to fall off. Yeah. But that's a new thing. Underwear is outerwear. I mean, good luck to them, right?

But they're careful as to what that little glimpse of, of, of knicker is like, aren't they? I mean, often it's something quite... It's like all... I mean, it's old hat now, but those sort of fashion for male trousers to be low on the hip so you could show the top of your boxes.

Oh, the thong, and the thong, the early 2000s with the low slung jeans and the thong over the top. God, that's a flashback. God, I hope we never bring that one back. They will. We will.

We will together. Nina, you have been wonderful to talk to. So the book is out on the 1st of August, and it's called The Virtues of Underwear, Modesty, Flamboyance and Filth. And it is fabulous. Thank you so much for talking to me today, Nina. You have been wonderful. Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Nina for joining me.

And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at betwixt at historyhit.com. We've got episodes on everything from sexuality in ancient Mesopotamia to medieval chastity, all marching your way. This podcast was produced by Stuart Beckworth. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again betwixt the sheets, the history of sex scandal in society, a podcast by History Hit.

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