Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Victorian Sex Work Scandal: The Prince And The Telegraph Boys

Episode Date: July 22, 2025

In the summer of 1889, a London police officer stopped and searched a telegraph boy, suspecting him of stealing from the Post Office he worked for. What he uncovered was not theft, but instead a network of male sex workers being frequented by some of the most respectable gentlemen in the country.Kate is joined by John Scott to discuss the scandal that ensued. John is Head of School in the School of Justice at Queensland University of Technology.This episode was edited by Tomos Delargy. It was produced by Sophie Gee and Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.Please vote for us for Listeners' Choice at the British Podcast Awards! Follow this link, and don’t forget to confirm the email. Thank you!Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, my lovely bird twixters. It's me, Kate Lister. You are listening to Bertwifers Sheets. But before I can let you do any more listening, I do have to let you know that this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults,

about adulty things, and adult you wake up in adult subject. You should be an adult too. Oh, few, I feel safer. Actually, I am going to doll up a second helping of Fair Doos warning onto this Fair Do's warning, because we are talking about sexual exploitation. today. And you might not want to listen to that, in which case, just give this one a swerve and we'll catch you next time. Right, on with the show. Oh, watch it there. I nearly got taken out by that

bike. Honestly, these lads can't be trusted. I will be talking to their employer. Grey trousers, a dark tunic, a pillbox hat, armband and a leather pouch. It's easy enough to recognize a telegraph boy when you see one. Round and round the streets of London, they go, zipping through passageways and hurtling down cobbled residential. streets. They deliver urgent messages all across the city and by doing so, they gain access to spaces usually reserved for the most privilege. The Telegraph Boys are far more used to delivering gossip than being the subject of it. But all that changed in 1889 when a huge scandal erupted involving numerous Telegraph Boys as well as dukes, earls and maybe even a prince.

What do you look for a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning it up and pushing the funny. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, what beautiful time. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Derry. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixta Sheets,

the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. London in 1889. Victoria was Queen, the iconic Tower Bridge was under, construction, the Savoy Hotel had opened, and newspapers were clambering for more sensation and scandal in the wake of the Whitechapel murders. And they got it in early July when police discovered a brothel at 19 Cleveland Street, one where aristocratic men would visit teenage telegraph boys. Hmm. What followed was a power struggle between the press, the police and public interest to try and find out more and stamp out such horrid exploitation of children.

I am joined in this episode by Professor John Scott from Queensland University of the Technology School of Justice. If anyone can tell us about this, it's him. Let's do it. Well, hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Professor John Scott. How are you doing? Brilliant. Greetings from Australia. Hello, Australia. You are something, of an academic heavyweight when it comes to male sex work. You are the author of the history of male sex work and you have written extensively about the cultural history of male sex work. So you are the ideal person for us to be talking to about this particular scandal in the 19th century, the Cleveland Street scandal. But before we get to that, can you tell me a bit

about your academic origin story? How did you end up in this particular area of research? Yeah, look, I was studying sociology, and this is going back to the late 90s. I was interested in the health sociology, and I was messing around with epidemiology, and I thought, well, epidemiology, this is going to go nowhere, get me nowhere, you know, who needs epidemiologists anymore? And my supervisor suggested, oops! Yeah, why don't you combine a few interests here, and, you know, and then, you know, look more at sort of around policy around sex industry and so on,

and definitely wanted to look at both male and female sex workers at the time. But I did find the male side of things more interesting because there was a lot less written about it. That was my starting point. I've been sort of dropping in and out of that sort of focus, I guess, around the sex industry now for, you know, ever since since then, so 25 years longer. And there's always new stuff happening. We've managed to sort of decriminalise a lot of stuff here in this neck of the woods in the Antipodes. There's still a few states to go in Australia. But, yeah, the rest of the world's still waiting for some reform in that area.

Yeah, absolutely it is. It is interesting that male sex work, not that it flies under the radar entirely, but when people talk about it, they immediately think of a woman selling sex to a man. And male sex work, especially the history of it, it has been somewhat neglected. Why do you think that is? Needless to say, male sex work is old as the profession itself, as long as, you know, sex work's been around, male sex workers have been around. And, you know, historically you can verify that, you know, this is an activity, whatever

it might be called at the time. And this is an issue because I think we've named at different things at different times. And so it's got conflated with, you know, other types of things, other types of issues, other types of social problems. And the typical one, of course, is to conflate it with homosexuality or with sodomy or, as we'll see today. And, you know, with various other activities, which seem to take. precedence. And so the highlights really, that's all becomes the problem, the stigma associated with

it is about two men having sex rather than about somebody selling sex per se. And there's even a number of terms, you know, and as many terms for male sex workers historically and, you know, and currently I guess as they have been for female sex workers over the years. But, you know, certainly some of those terms do have a strong sort of gendered element, you know, more so than, you know, than the issue there, again, around the sort of selling of sex per se. I think the other issue here too is that I think especially in the modern period, women's bodies in public space creates all sorts of anxieties, especially working class women in public spaces. There's less anxieties if you're a bloke and you're going out, you know,

selling sex in public spaces and it's less of a problem. And always with the sex industry, typically when it's behind closed doors, men, you know, the regulators, the powers that be tend to be less worried about it. Yeah, they do, don't they? It's a really strange phenomenon, and it's all tangled up with lots of other kind of discussions. But let's talk about the scandal that happened in Britain in the late 19th century, 1889, and it's known as the Cleveland Street scandal. So can you paint me a picture of what happened?

Just give us a quick overview, and then we'll dive into the details. Yes, well, look, there had been other scandals prior to the Cleveland Street scandal. So there's occasionally these things, you know, sort of bump up historically. In fact, you know, at the moment we've got the ditty one happening over in the States involving male sex workers and so on and getting lots of publicity. Yeah. And so, and that's a nice lead in here because, again, there's sort of like power and celebrity involved in this as well, in this incident. And so, I think what makes this scandal, what makes it so interesting, is that the people that get involved in it.

So we've got a number of different people who, for their age, in that period, were incredibly powerful. So we've got newspaper proprietors. We've got the police, you know, senior police involved in this. And it goes all the way up to the royal family in this one and the prime minister, you know. So in some ways, it's a little bit like a, wow. A bit like a water gate of its day in some ways too. And that may be teased out a little bit more when we look at the actual incident

in a little bit more detail. But it's one of those things that sort of starts off as a bit of a slow boil and then sort of builds, builds, builds and becomes more publicly visible. And, yeah, it becomes a full-blown scandal. But of course, you know, at the core of all this is this idea that there are young males involved who are being exploited by older, very wealthy, powerful man. And I think that's what gives us the whole, this scandal. I guess that's what gives it some legs and has endured actually right into the contemporary

period, I think, when you look at other scandals involving male sex workers as well. The gulf between the people that were purchasing sex and the people that were, it's very difficult because, as you say, they weren't just young, some of them were children, So we'd be very careful about how we're saying that there are people being exploited for it. It was huge because was it telegraph boys? Like how did even this come out? How did the scandal even break? Yeah, yeah.

So it involved telegraph boys. And that whole notion of telegraph boys, we don't have telegraph boys today. So that's something that's very historical in itself. What was a telegraph boy? Just before we carry it. What did they do? Yeah, they were linked to the post office. And this was an age of the telegraph, telegrams,

messaging, I guess the internet of its day, and it had this physical component and telegraph works with that physical component. And so they would be typically, but we'll always male. They were fairly young, so teenage. We're talking about sort of early teens to later teens. They would wear uniform, so they'd be very well presented. And the interesting thing about them is they would be this cohort of young males that would work very closely together. And they had access to, I guess, spaces in Victorian life that working class young males wouldn't typically be able to access. I suppose they did.

So by going around delivering these messages and that, you know, they gained them access to elite society, you know, so places that they would otherwise be turned back from, you know, barred from entering. So I think they're quite interesting in that they kind of navigate those spaces in an interesting way that sort of allows them to transcend just a little bit. some of the class taboos or junctures of their day. So the Telegraph Boys are out all around London delivering messages effectively. How do we go from that to the royal family have been purchasing sex?

What happens? Yeah, well, what happens in between? And it gets very complex in between. But, yeah, I'll try to take you through a little bit of what goes on. And as I mentioned earlier, there's this sort of like, it's a bit like Watergate in that it is a bit of a slow bill. And so the whole thing, affair starts in, in the, in a little bit of an accident, I guess, in some ways.

So in the middle of 1889, a constable, a guy called Luke Hanks, was investigating a theft from the London Central Telegraph Office. Okay, so that's pretty typical. So during the investigation, a 15-year-old telegraph boy by the name of Swinskow was discovered to be in the possession of 14 shillings, which at that time was equivalent to several weeks wages, so considerable amount of money. So something's going on at the post office.

Money's going missing. Here's this Swin's Cow. He's got several weeks away. And at the time, Messenger boys were not permitted to carry personal cash around with them because they could get it mixed up with the customers. There were all sorts of issues there. So this was unusual. So, you know, you could almost assume that this constable, Hanks, thinks, well, I've got

my person, you know, this is a pretty straight cut sort of thing. This should be straightforward. But then there's the next part. So suspecting the boy's involved in the fact, he takes him in for questioning. And after a little bit of questioning, the boy says that he was working for money as a sex worker. And he also names another person called Charles Hemmond. And he says, this Hemman bloke, he actually operates a male brothel at 19 Cleveland Street. Wow.

And so suddenly it's like, boom. Plot twist. A plot twist. So we've got a male brothel. So suddenly you're not just investigating the theft of money, but you know, you're looking at something completely different here. And so he says that he was introduced, this is Swinskow, he was introduced to this Hammond by another post office clerk, a guy called a young bloke. I think he could, you know, late teens called Henry Newlove. And he named another boy as well, actually two other boys, a guy called Wright and a guy called Fickbrun.

And basically, so suddenly we've got these names, we've got this whole sort of thing blowing up in a big way. So there's something going on at the post office, these young males at the post office, seemingly being recruited to go and participate in these activities at this male brothel at 9th, Cleveland Street. Run by this guy Hammond, he's like the central guy. Run by this guy Hammond, yes, yes. So that's right. And Hammond's an older male.

So he's clearly, well, suspicably the brothel keeper. Now, Constable Hanks, he goes and reports it to the case to his superiors. and his superior happens to be a guy called Detective Inspector Frederick Abilene. Have you come across that name before? Was there something to a Jack the Ripper? It's something to do with Jack the Ripper. So a few years earlier, Abilene had been, you know, he'd been the main person on the case of Jack the Ripper.

So he's a bit of a, you know, he's quite well known, you know, he's appeared in the London tabloids many times. He's the guy that investigated the Ripper case. And of course, you know, if you're investigating sex, workers, who better? Who better, right? They must be thinking, what the hell is going on here? They've got this kid. They just basically expected to go, yeah, all right, I've been stealing money. And then he just suddenly starts going, yeah, I've been recruited to work at this establishment. They must have just been like, what on earth is happening? Yeah, no, that's right. So it's suddenly it's expanding

into something else. And as I said, this Abilene, he was a bit of a sort of a policing celebrity of the time, you know, so to bring him into it, you know, I think that's where it's all starting to get, you know, it's moving out of the shadows and into something that's a little bit more public here, which is interesting. Just the fact that Abilene gets attached to this case would have raised its profile anyway, I mean, if I still know his name, like hundreds of years later on, he was a celebrity. So at the moment you've got accusations being made, now what happens? Do they start interviewing other telegraph buyers, did they go to Cleveland Street? What happens next? So Abilene issues a warrant to arrest Hemmond and New Love for violation of Section 11 of the

Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1885. And so this is basically, this is something that's prosecuting man for engaging in homosexual activities during that period. Which was quite a recent law that was bought in, wasn't it? Tell me a little bit about what that law did and why it was significant. Absolutely. So look, the law replaces an earlier law. So there'd been prohibitions against what was known as sodomy, you know, as in Sodom and Gomorra, Sodomy. They'd been around since 1533. So Henry the 8th, as I understand it, brought in laws against sodomy. Ah, that bastion of moral sexuality. Yeah, yeah. So I think it was known as a buggery act even. And, but look, it was always difficult to prosecute this activity because, and often what happened,

you'd have people that were prosecuted for attempted sodomy. Which is weird because it's the act itself, isn't it? That's what they have to try and prove that penile penetration has taken place, basically. Yeah, that's right. And of course, one of the reasons why they had something like the Cleveland Street House was to try to keep things as private as possible, you know, so there had been an incident that had occurred, I think it was in about 1810, and it was called the Veer Street Cotery. And with that, they busted what was called a Molly House, so which is, again, it's like a male brothel.

The Bow Street Police busted it, and 18 men were eventually convicted. Two of them were hanged, and six were actually pilloried for the offence. Only two men, only two men were hanged out of all that because they couldn't prove that they'd actually been participants in that act of sodomy, when that law was current at that time. So that didn't happen. But I guess what's interesting, too, if you go back to that 1810 period in Vierstery, they did pillory the guys back then,

and it was really vicious, you know, so these people had rob and fish, dead cats, cannonballs, vegetables thrown at them, and they got so fierce that they had an armed guard of 200 constables to try to keep the crowd under control. So I think what's interesting there is that, you know, you had this earlier Molly House and it had been a very public thing, you know, this sort of, you know, the punishment of them.

But what you'll find with this with Cleveland Street, the Cleveland Street scandal, and then we call it a scandal for a reason, is that the authorities are trying to, you know, suddenly they're trying to keep everything hush, hush. And it's, you know, we don't want this to get out. And there's a reason why they don't want it to get out because they do start interviewing the male sex workers. And so they start talking to these. guys and they start to say, well, look, you know, our clientele, you know, they involve some,

you know, pretty well-known, pretty powerful people. But in the meantime, if we go back to what's going on there at Cleveland Street, they try to arrest the proprietor Hammond and they find out that he's fled somewhere. In the meantime, one of the young guys does name a Lord Arthur Somerset as somebody who frequented the house. Oh, hello. So this is a big development. So Lord Arthur Somerset It wasn't just any old lord, I guess you could say, but he had connections to the royal family. Oh, it's getting a bit hot under the colour, isn't it? Absolutely. Right, okay.

So Somerset's got connections to the royal family, so he's an inquiry to the Prince of Wales, none other than the Prince of Wales. And he had a bit of a reputation, but mostly at this stage it was mostly sort of, you know, for his heterosexual, if you like, activities. He was just thinking, I can't think of him being with the boys. I might have been wrong on that one, but he, I mean, he had a gargantuan sexual appetite. If anything stayed still long enough, he'd have a go at it. But was there any accusations that he liked boys as well?

It wouldn't surprise me. Certainly, you know, and this is why this Cleveland Street scandal is significant because historians, when the documents were eventually released in the 70s, and historians got to look at everything that was actually happening, they did start to sort of speculate around his sexuality. Let's come back to that, maybe, because rather than it could be a spoiler. But at this stage, he's been, the Lord Arthur Somerset's been named. It's not good at all, like if your mate is accused of something like that, even if you

had nothing to do with it whatsoever, we still have guilt by association. Like, if you know, like, you see that happening with celebrities all the time when they get accused of terrible things. The people who were even in their circle are suddenly on the back foot, even if they had nothing to do with it. So it's a big deal. It is a big deal. And I guess, you know, in Victorian England, you know, this, we're talking about activities that people normally don't want to know about, don't want to speak about, you know, that everybody's pushing aside. So this is a guy that's running the Prince of Wales Stables. He was a military officer and also part of the aristocracy. And the other person that

gets named is the Earl of Houston. And there's also a number of other people, British Army colonels and so on. So this is all, you know, this suddenly has really blown up. You know, So we've got some big names here. And look, you know, it may have been that when they were being interviewed, these young fellas, they were smart enough to know that, you know, if I frow away a few of these names and that, this might, you know, sort of, you know, get us out of a bit of trouble, which it seems to actually eventually do. So Somerset, he was interviewed by the police, but no immediate action was taking against him.

So, you know, this is typical. And in the meantime, he sort of goes abroad and keeps conducting his, you know, everyday activities and so on. The house at Cleveland Street was empty, so Hemman had fled. And eventually he actually makes it all the way to the US. And although a warrant was issued for his arrest, he was never arrested. And eventually that warrant is dropped. So he manages to escape everything here.

I'll be back with John after the short break. Anything about him? Like, do we have any background details on who he was? No, look, I haven't been. dig out a lot about him at all, but he does manage to escape as such. And what you find interesting about this is that most of the sort of the senior figures and that do evade punishment and do tend to get away here. And it's the male sex workers, just as is the case with female sex workers, who tend to sort of, you know, become the focus of punishment around this. So, so arrest warrants

were produced for various people that were involved, including a guy called George Vell. Beck, who was an acquaintance of Hemans. And Vec, it seems, had worked at the telegraph office. And he actually got sacked for improper conduct with the Messenger Boys. So I think he's the kind of guy that's here recruiting, bringing the Messenger boys in. He's quite an influential player in some of this. So they go and look for Vec, the police, and they eventually catch up with him at Waterloo Station. Search his pockets.

And they come across the name, or letters, at least, from a guy called, Orgeon and Allies. So we've got somebody else that suddenly all caught up in this. And he actually admitted, when the police interviewed him, to actually receiving money from Somerset and having a sexual relationship with him and working at Cleveland Street for Hemman. So Allies eventually becomes a real linchpin, you know, in this whole sort of prosecution case. So about a month later, we have the trials occurring of the, if you like, rent boys, I guess. They were probably known in the day. They would have been prosecuted under the Lebeshay Amendment Act, which it changed. That was

what changed it. So it wasn't just that you had to be prosecuted for sodomy. It was gross indecency. That's what it brought in, right? Yeah, no, that's right. So what the Labashe Amendment Act brought in, and Labaschet sort of crops up in some of this narrative as well. But he was to someone who was, he was actually interestingly enough, he was a liberal and he was a radical liberal, you know, at the time. And so he was out, if you go by his own words, to protect children, you know, so and that was his seemingly major concern. And so it did introduce an amendment, a new misdemeanor for gross indecency between men. So this is what's being prosecuted here, which was known as Clause 11. And that clause was introduced in 1885. And

it says any male person who in private or public commits the commission of any other male person, and a gross indecency, would be guilty of a misdemeanor. And therefore, they'd be subject to two years of hard labour. Wow. Just being gay then. Yeah, that's right, just being gay. So we know that's what happens at Elskill-Wild, you know. So, you know, a few years later, he's prosecuted under the same act.

And he does cop two years, hard labour, which, you know, for somebody who probably hasn't done a lot of hard labour, but, you know, effectively destroyed him. It broke him, didn't he? It really did. It was what happened to him. Absolutely. So if we return to the trial of the rent boys, so they're being prosecuted in similar circumstances as Wild was. But what actually happens to them is that there tends to be a lot of clemency shown towards them. So the media is setting them up as kind of innocence.

Okay. It's an interesting shift. Yeah. So representations of the rent boys in the media tend to sort of portray them as looking relatively young, you know, clean cut, and Jellick, if you like. And so there's a lot of sympathy out there for them. And the narrative that starts to get, you know, sort of build up around this, the public narrative, you know, the stuff that's coming out in the media and what's going on, it's like, well, there's all these rich clients. They're not getting prosecuted.

They're getting away with stuff. There might be a bit of a cover-up. There might be a bit of a conspiracy here. I mean, it does, doesn't it? The only people that they've got for trial are basically poor teenage boys and everyone else that's been named as Legged It. How big was this in the press? Like if you're talking scandal, how big was this?

Was it reported everywhere? So pretty much after the trial of the boys, so there was a little bit of reportage. Some of the press start to pick it up in a big way. And so there becomes a bit of a press campaign around this. And that's why it does get the name scandal. So there's two people that pick it up, and one of them is a very famous, well-known newspaper proprietor of the day called WT Stead.

And he's often said to be probably the most famous journalist in the British Empire at the time, arguably the world, really. He was known for investigative journalism, so probably invented both tabloid and investigative journalism, right for the Paul Moore Gazette. And I guess one of his big claim to fames and what he's being remembered for was that a few years earlier, he'd campaigned around female prostitution, and he pushed to sort of change laws to up the age of consent. So this is sort of stuff, it all starts to get sort of blended together. So, you know, so when you look at the changes, you know, around those laws that we were

talking about before the amendments, those changes partly result from some press campaigning to raise the age of consent. And what Sted had done, interestingly enough, he'd actually basically taken a young woman from her parents and shown how easy it was to, you know, to sort of say, well, look, you know, I can take a young girl off the streets. It's great that the age of consent was raised. It definitely needed that. But his methods were questionable. They've been questioned ever since.

How old was the girl? She was like 11 or 12 or something. And then there was this whole thing about like that the mother didn't actually mean for that to happen and he'd engineered it. And it all got a bit. It was a strange story. Absolutely. And it was huge in the day.

I think they were, you know, like the afternoon edition of the, Paulmore Gazette, you know, might have been selling 10,000 copies on the back of this whole series. And it'd be a series of stories that was being presented. So it was really big stuff in its day. Instead, he remained very prominent, you know, and famous for quite some time. And he was known particularly for his influence, you know, so he changed criminal law, he changed social legislation, he lobbied around a number of things. But as I said, the one that he was really well known for was raising the age of consent back. in 1885, but it also happened to be, you know, where those amendments did have an impact on,

you know, man having sexual relations with man as well. And he's reporting on the Cleveland Street scandal? Absolutely. He's reporting on the Cleveland Street scandal. But he's probably not the most prominent reporter on the scandal. So what happens at the trials of the Red Boys? So you've got two of them now, New Love and Vec, and they're sentenced to four and nine months hard labour respectively. Not as harsh as it could have been, I suppose, but it's still very harsh. It is harsh. It's terribly harsh. But again, you know, it's not as harsh, you know, a few years later as what wild copped. So that was regarded, weirdly enough, and I'm not making light of hard labour at the time, but that was regarded as pretty much lenient. And so in the judge that had

been appointed was named for his leniency. That's nuts, in it? Only two months hard labour for a 15-year-old boy, you absolute bunch of assholes. There's another character in this that we should mention, before I forget him, Jack Sol, who rocks up. Jack Sol does rock up, and he's a bit of an interesting character, he's a bit of a rock star. He comes along, and he comes along in interesting circumstances, and actually, and this is a good sort of juncture between our newspaper guys and Jack Sol and what happens next. So this is a scandal that keeps giving, you know, So it's got a little bit of a ways to play out. So the press started to get a whiff of what was going on.

They understood that, you know, these poor young blokes are getting these harsh sentences. What's happening with the aristocrats? What's happening with the military guys, the powerful people? Yeah, they bug it off. Yeah. So they start the campaign. And a guy, another press guy called Park, he starts to really campaign hard on some of this. So Park, he runs a North London newspaper.

It's pretty obscure. It's not that well known. It's a very radical newspaper. So, you know, so he thinks, you know, these aristocrats are they getting away with it. So he actually goes and names Houston, he was the Lord that had been mentioned earlier. He'd been named by the sex workers when they were first interviewed. He points out Houston publicly. He actually suggests that Houston ran off to Peru. So one of the others has run off to the US. Lord Somerset actually ran off to France and he never returned. So it's a bit tragic actually what happens to Lord Somerset because he really can never get work again, you know, because if you're, you know, an equerry to the Prince Wales and you've got that, you know, muddy mark. Yeah, yeah, that would be difficult to be recruited after that, although my sympathies are slightly limited if he's been exploiting teenage boys. But still, yes. So he kind of dies in, well, obscurity, I suppose, in France. But he never faces justice for this. No, he doesn't. So he never comes back, never returns to England.

And the word was that he was tipped off, you know. So again, you know, you got these powerful people that are... He must have been. Yeah, yeah. Like, what, they all just suddenly decided to go on holiday all at the same time, just as this scandal dropped. Somebody said something to somebody. Absolutely.

So, and the suggestion is, and, you know, and the rumor is that this is really, you know, it's either coming from the Prince of Wales himself, or it could be. other than the Prime Minister. No. So Lord Salisbury, you know, who again is acting on behalf of the Prince of Wales, you know, trying to cover up this aristocratic debauchery. Wow.

Why would they want them to get out of the country? Why wouldn't they be like, you've done a terrible thing, you must face justice? Why would the Prince of Wales want his mate who looks after his horses to be out of the country? It's interesting because he's quoted in some reports as saying, you know, look, he's done terrible things and, you know, and so on, you know, but then at the same time, well, if he should go and never show up here again, you know, don't come back kind of good riddance. Okay. Yeah.

So it's really trying to play it, you know, sort of both ways. But the Prince of Wales starts to come under increasing pressure. So at the time, he was just constantly subjected to letters coming to him, you know, sort of implicating him in these matters, speculation rumors. he's really feeling the pressure at this time too around the case. So it's pretty much the Tories that are in power. And I think, you know, in some ways they're seen to be the friends of the wealthy and the aristocrats and so on.

And they probably associate a scandal like this. You know, this could, you know, create all sorts of ramifications. It can have social ramifications and so on. So, yeah, we've really got to keep the social order, you know, sort of all together here. So what happens with Houston, he ends up filing against this reporter park for Leibon. He says, I wasn't in Peru. I didn't flee, you know. That was the bit he objected to.

I wasn't in Peru. No, that's right. Well, he does admit to go into Cleveland Street. So he says something like, well, you know, well, actually, I did go to Cleveland Street. And I happened to be walking along Piccadilly. And I was given a card and invited me to Cleveland Street. And I wanted to go in and look at the display of. female nude sculptures here.

And that's what I thought I was going to see. No, you didn't. That's just the, that is, that's just the I only read Playboy for the articles. Nonsense. Come on. All right. Okay. So he's admitted to that.

He's admitted to that. Then he said, you know, and of course, I went in there, you know, and I was appalled, you know, all this thing. Horrified. Yeah, horrified, you know. And then he probably, yeah, I read out of the place, you know, in sheer horror. So this is where Saul comes up. So they bring Saul in, you know, and Saul's another person who's work, John Saul.

He's an interesting character this, Saul, because he's the one person, he's not like in the same group as the Telegraph Boy. So he's quite different. In fact, he describes himself, and I love this description, as a professional sodomite. But he's saying this in court under questioning. He's, is he Irish? Or least he comes over from Ireland, doesn't he?

He's not very old. How old is he when they've called him over for this? 18, 19, kind of... 19, possibly, yeah, yeah, 18. And he sat there in court saying, I'm a professional sodomite. Yeah, yeah, look, and he was said to have addressed the court with brazen effrontery. As I said, very interesting character. He'd been caught up, he'd been caught up with an earlier scandal back in Ireland.

So, yes, you're right, Kate. He did come from Ireland. He'd been involved in the Dublin Castle, a scandal or affair. And again, you know, we're talking about. talking about sort of military figures visiting, you know, a place where they're clearly sort of, they were said to be engaging in orgies with other men. And, you know, so you can say something similar to Cleveland Street. And, you know, and I think that's what Saul's kind of saying when he says, I'm a professional sodomite. He's grappling for a way, like, he probably

wouldn't think of himself as a sex worker. And I guess it's interesting at this time, too, because homosexuality is sort of still something that's kind of coming into being. I don't think these people think of themselves, you know, see themselves as gay. They don't see themselves as homosexual. They don't see themselves as sex workers. So we're in that kind of in-between period where, you know, we've got that sort of morality from the earlier periods that talks about sodomy and buggery and so on as this kind of aberration as a practice.

And then, you know, what's starting to develop just in this period is this sort of notion, this medical or scientific notion of the homosexuals as a species as a distinct sort of, you know, group or an identity even, you know, which of course, the homosexual man labelled such, started to embrace. Yeah, but that wasn't there at the time. So you've got Jack Saul announcing that he's a professional Sardomite to the court. And what else did he have to say for himself?

Why was he even there? Who was he testifying about the guy in Peru slash not Peru? Yeah, not Peru. So he was a defendant in the line. Bible case. So he was brought forward as a defense witness. He basically, he said that, you know, Houston is lying, you know, so he was there and he says something to the effect. In fact, you know, Houston isn't a sodomite either. And this sort of takes us back to the point I was making about, you know, this idea of sodomites. He's not a sodomite because he used to like playing

with me and spending on my belly. Oh, so it's all in the details then. It's all in the small print. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, we couldn't be a sodomite because he's not engaging anal sex, but he did these other activities and he certainly was there. I think when you're getting that level of detail, it makes me feel that, you know, John Saw was not necessarily lying and I, and I don't see any reason why he would be. Why would he? Yeah, yeah. What did the court make of that? This Irish teenager turning up with these kind of details. They must have been really shocked. With brazen an affrontory, yeah. With brazener frontery, yeah. Yeah, look, and this is a guy that, I guess he'd become a, the son.

notorious. He was sort of, it was well known in his lifetime. He actually featured in a novel called The Sins of the City's Plain. Could be fictitious in a semi-autobiographical, I mean, Victorian pornography, basically. And so, so he was a bit of notorious in his day. A very colorful character and descriptions of him having as being very good looking. So I think he was described as having a massive male appendage. So, so yes, he would have been someone, I guess, in the role of sex worker that, you know, might have... It's a hell of a reputation, isn't it? Wow. Well, he did. He established a reputation for himself.

And I think that's important because, you know, another distinction to make here is that the young fellas in the post office, they're sort of involved in a clandestine activity. You know, they wouldn't see themselves as professional sodomites. They wouldn't see themselves, you know, really as anything other than postal workers who were doing just something, you know, having a little bit of fun on the side and they're earning some good money for it. I think less they'd have a sense of themselves

as being, you know, sodomites, let alone homosexuals, but clearly souls entirely different. Isn't it? So what happens then? Do the boys get sent to hard labour? Some people have bugged off abroad and stay there. What about the guy who was in Peru, not in Peru?

Did he win his case? He did. So he won his case. and was cleared and the journalist park from memory he got a year imprisonment which was considered to be

very harsh at the time I'll be back with John after the short break and sure what's kind of strange about this case is like none of the big players face justice Hammond somewhere in America who knows where the rest of them are kind of scattered to the wind Houston's been cleared

there's a really harsh penalty for the guy who wrote about him harsher even than the boys who've been accused of this. What I've noticed when I've looked into this is it seems like, in the UK at least, there was a press silence. It starts to build. It starts to build. You've got people like steed and park who are like trying to do something with it.

And then all of a sudden it's just, it's almost like it's just gone. Was it reported anywhere else around the world? I really get the sense that like it was either too hot to talk about because the guy had been sent to jail or this was still in a point of like, These are powerful people. Like, we'll just shut up. It's not worth the risk. Yeah, look, my understanding is it was reported upon elsewhere.

And, yeah, look, I mean, there was a period. So for, you know, about 12 months where there was feverish, you know, sort of press accounts of what's going on. And then up to 60 people were, you know, implied to have been involved in this as clients, you know, and there's a lot of stuff happening. The Prince of Wales is feeling the heat around all this, certainly. and there is evidence certainly to show that, you know, the Prince of Wales did play a part in turning down a little bit of the heat here through the Prime Minister.

Oh, did he? Right. Yes, yes. So there was, there does seem to be evidence, you know, so historians, you know, looking back, have said there was certainly some efforts to try to get this all covered up, but under the carpet. So this is one conspiracy case, I guess, that you could say has got some legs. Do we know anything about what happened to any of the players? in all of this? Do they just sort of,

would we even know what happened to these boys, what happened to them afterwards? Not really. So I think they disappear into history, you know, in many ways, and they're probably happy, their working class young man. And I guess they're not really meant to be in the spotlight.

They wouldn't have, other than this kind of this accident, you know, that occurred, you know. And again, it started with this small investigation and then it blew into something bigger and involved some of the most influential, you know, biggest names in that period, you know, whether they be from the press and so on.

I mean, we know what happened to all the main players. Prince Victor Albert later dies. Very young he dies and, you know, doesn't inherit the throne. And he's actually, he's interestingly, he's always sort of getting implicated in the Ripper. Yes, he is, isn't he? Definitely wasn't him. I feel quite confident saying that.

But he was a slightly effeminate prince. And so he obviously got implicated with this as well. Look, he did, and he did have a liking for sex. But to sort of come back to that point you were making earlier, I think historically historians looking back tend to sort of be on the side that he did not visit the brothels. And it was unlikely that he was gay, possibly bisexual, but maybe not as well. There was some speculation at some point that Somerset, that Lord, who was his equerry, had somehow lured him down to Cleveland Street when he knew that it was being investigated. into that to try to then implicate him and then he knew that the prince would probably try to save him or pressure him. It's probably idle speculation, but, you know, nonetheless, you know, these rumours kept sort of bobbing up that the prince had been there. As a historian of sex word then, as a final question, what impact did this case have on the history of male sex work? Did it change things? Did it make it more visible? Did it have any lasting impact? Or was it just a scandal

that came and went? Yeah, look, great, great question, Kate. I think personally that it set up a bit of a trope or a template around male sex work that was going to persist for another century. So pretty much up until pretty much the 1980s. And that is this idea that male sex workers were typically what we'd call hustlers or rent boys, which means in the terminology that they're young man working class. They often work the streets, if not brothels, and they're victims of older, predatory, well-off man. So predatory homosexuals is the way that the clients would often be described. Now, this, of course, is in great contrast to female sex work, where the clients are invisible, that anybody really scrutinises them, they don't get prosecuted, the sex work is

subject or the scrutiny that they're going to jail. The male sex work world was very different. So the young male sex workers, you know, in the 50s, 60s, 70s, they'd get sent social welfare type options and it'd be those sort of public young folks. That was probably a good thing to do, but they weren't the only male sex workers around. The other ones were sort of like invisible. So they weren't out working the streets. The clients would be being these predatory, homosexual, older man, that's the way they were typified, they would cop the full flack of the law, so they'd be prosecuted. So very big contrast to female sex work. So what happens, though, in the 1980s is that with the appearance of HIV AIDS, the epidemic, people start to research

male sex work again because male sex work is seen to be vectors. They're called vectors for HIV AIDS. They're seen to be somebody who can transmit HIV to a heterosexual to a heterosexual, heterosexual male and then who transmits it to the family. So disease is, you know, sort of frightened, you know, the familial hold. But what happens? A lot of gay scholars at that time also start to do interviews with male sex workers. And they find, interestingly enough, that male sex workers are typically identifies gay or bisexual. Their clients are typically, they're heterosexual, but not exclusively, you know. So it's a complex thing where the stereotypes don't always fit. But certainly a lot of people working in the industry, gay or bisexual, or as John

Sol would say, you know, professional sonomites. I think he's a nice, yeah, sort of touchstone there, you know, for the reality of the profession. And so anyway, our thinking around male sex work kind of changed in that period. And I think we sort of acknowledged a bit of the complexity and we moved away from all this Victorian mythology that has sort of sprung up in the late 19th century. John, you have been fascinating to talk to. Thank you so much. If people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? Are you online? Yeah, yeah. Look, I'm based at the Pleasley and University of Technology here in Brisbane. I'm still putting out some materials around male sex work, both contemporary and historical. And I guess I'll keep dabbling in that space because it's so fascinating, Kate. It is so fascinating. Thank you so much for joining me. You've been marvelous.

Thank you, Kate. Thank you for listening and thank you so much to John for joining us. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like review and follow along whatever it is that you get your podcasts. If you've got any suggestions for an episode or perhaps you just wanted to say hello, that you can email us at betwixtat history hit.com. This podcast was edited by Tom Delagi and produced by Sophie G. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again, Betwixtershit, the history of sex scandal in society, a podcast by History Hit.

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