Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Voodoo & Vodou

Episode Date: April 19, 2022

Warning: This episode includes strong language and some adult themes.What comes to mind when you see the word voodoo? Most people tend to think of horror movies, zombies, dolls and witchcraft - but Vodou is a hugely misunderstood religion and spiritual practice.Kate is joined by two experts Betwixt the Sheets on today's episode; Dr Kyrah Malika Daniels on Haitian Vodou and the part it played in the revolution of 1791, and Elizabeth James on New Orleans and Louisiana Voodoo.Find out its long and fascinating history, and why it's become one of the most sensationalised religions in the world.Learn more about Haitian Vodou and its history here, and here, and you can follow Dr Daniels work, here.For more on African and Diasporic Religious Studies, please click here.Produced by Charlotte Long and Sophie Gee. Mixed by Seyi Adaobi.Betwixt the Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society. A podcast by History Hit.This podcast includes music from Epidemic Sounds, and archive clips from White Zombie 1932. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hi there, I'm Kate Lister. Before we start, I want to give you a quick warning that there are adult themes and the odds whereward in this episode. Now we've got the formalities out the way. Let's begin. Never eyes so evil.

Never power is so potent. What comes to your mind? when I mention the word voodoo. Most people tend to think of horror movies, zombies, possessions, dolls, witchcraft. But all of that is cobblers and voodoo is a really misunderstood religion and spiritual practice. How and why is it so misjudged? When did the voodoo that we see in pop culture today become so closely associated with evil? Join me, Kate Lister, betwixt the sheets to find.

out. What do you look for a man? Oh money of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect coffins of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing the money. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness for beautiful time. Goodness had nothing to do with it, Derry. Oh, and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets, the History of Sex, Scandal and Society with me, sex historian and professional pervert Kate Lister. Today we are looking into the world of voodoo, one of the most sensationalised and misunderstood religions. A lot of people associate voodoo with the kind of stuff that we see in horror movies,

the dolls, zombies, human sacrifice, etc. And to double check the general consensus on voodoo, I sent my producers, Charlotte and Sophie, out into the wide world to do something that they didn't really want to do. Ask the British public what they're. thought Voodoo was. Like mysterious and yeah I want to say witchcraft as well. A Voodoo doll. Like stabbing people and giving people bad luck. It makes me think of witchcraft like the African subcontinent kind of area. It makes me think of women. It makes me think of

suffering and pain. Voodoo has a long and fascinating history. history. And one of the main reasons why it has the elusive reputation it has today is really because of ignorance, fear and racism. I'm speaking with two experts on the subject, Professor Kira Malika Daniels from Boston College, and she's going to talk to me about Haitian of Vodoo, and the part it played in the Haitian Revolution of 1791. She's going to debunk some of the common misconceptions about the religion and the practice, as well as sharing some of its primary practices and rituals. I'm also chatting with Elizabeth James from the University of Michigan. She's going to tell me all about New Orleans and Louisiana voodoo

and the famous voodoo queen, Marie Loveau, or Mama Marie, as she likes to call her. Elizabeth remembers picking up voodoo traditions and practices from her grandmother as a child, and it was really wonderful to hear how she incorporates this into her daily life, that it was something loving and enlightening passed down from grandmother to granddaughter. So I really hope that you enjoy learning more with me. So hello and very much welcome to Professor Kira Malika Daniels. It is so, so nice to have you here. Thank you so much for having me.

I'm looking forward to the conversation. I've been so looking forward to this because this is not a subject that I know anything about and I'm painfully aware that what I think I know about it is probably informed by nonsense, Hollywood nonsense, isn't it? So the first thing that I have learned, because you are here to speak to me about Haitian voodoo, is that it's not pronounced voodoo. Is that right? That's right. That's exactly correct. It's pronounced voodo. Vodoo. Vodoo. Can you tell me what the difference is between voodoo and voodoo?

Absolutely. It's a large question, so I'll be mindful of thinking about how historically the term was introduced. and then how it became misinterpreted. So Vodun, which is V-O-D-U-N, is a religious tradition from West Africa, specifically from regions of Benin, Togo, Ghana, but we think that the origins are in ancient Dahomei, which is current-day Benin. And Vodun means spirit. It was the name for the spirits of the pantheon in this ancient African religious tradition of West Africa.

It became associated with the title of the religion, not necessarily because devotees themselves used the tradition, but because everyone as an outsider heard the term Vodun, Vodun, Vodun, speaking of the spirits. This was a religious tradition that, along with many other African religious traditions, was brought by enslaved Africans to the Americas, and specifically to places like Aitzi, formerly colonized by the French. It was known as Sandomeng, and Haitians would refer to spirits in the very, very early period as probably Vodun, as spirits. And soon this became more often called Vodou.

Interestingly, a lot of Haitians themselves use different terms. They actually will more commonly say, M-Sévi-Té, which means I serve the spirits. Oh, that's so beautiful. I think so too. I think it's a beautiful rendering. I serve the spirits. It really highlights the reciprocal nature of the relationship between the spirits, whom we called L-W-A, and human devotees. That's right. Lua. Now, where does voodoo come in?

So voodoo spelled V-O-O-D-O-O, and usually not capitalized, is an American, frankly, bastardization of voodoo. Okay. Americans couldn't pronounce it. And it was a term that was introduced into European and Western lexicon as voodoo. When did Americans first encounter it is perhaps a bit more complicated question. So we know that, you know, the early French and. And early Europeans would have had interactions with these African religious traditions in Haiti coming from Congo, coming from Nigeria, coming from Benin, coming from Senegal. But it wasn't yet fully formed as one single religion. It was still a mix and a blend of different traditions.

Later on, we've come to recognize this tradition as voodoo, but probably we think that the term voodoo became a sort of popular icon and entered the sort of American vocabulary during the U.S. Marine occupation of Haiti between 1915 and 1934. This is the birth of the sort of voodoo fantastical imaginary of Hollywood. This is the emergence of zombies. this is the emergence of things like voodoo dolls. It's during the time that U.S. Marines are in Haiti, that they're encountering voodoo, which for now has had a chance to gestate for 150 years, 200 years, 300 years, 400 years,

and really sort of ground itself as an African-derived religion of the Americas, similar to Lukumi in Cuba, similar to Candelamble in Brazil. But Americans, I think, really became fascinated and fixated on this notion of voodoo during the U.S. Marine patient. So what I think of voodoo is voodoo, which is a kind of sort of a touristy misunderstanding. Would that be a fair assessments? I think so. I think so. So Hollywood took voodoo and ran with it. You know, you have the emergence of zombie films from, you know, the early 1930s. I walk with a zombie, white zombie. You have these really incredibly fantastical stories of people being attacked by zombies. But of course, What's very interesting about these early films is that a lot of times it's actually a very twisted love story between white people.

There's very often a sort of triangle love story of unrequited love. A man is trying to get the attention and affection and love of a woman. It's unrequited. He's competing with another man. And so he goes to a Haitian ritual priest. It's usually a man in this instance and asks for assistance. and tries to turn this lover into a zombie so that he can dominate her, right? And this is actually what's so fascinating is these early zombie films

are not actually portraying Haitians as doing this themselves in their own communities. It's strangely about white people doing it, and specifically in our patriarchal context of the West, about how white men can use a black person's magic, quote unquote, right, a voodoo of zombies to captivate a woman's love and devotion as a subservient person. And so that's, I think, a really complex understanding. But to be clear, zombies are not a part of Haitian voodoo the way that people think that they are in Hollywood. In a lot of ways, it's really a metaphor for slavery.

I ask my students this all the time. When we think about what is a zombie, it is a person who has been revived from the dead, who does not have full control over their capabilities, their consciousness has perhaps been suppressed, and they are under the law, they are under the command of usually an oppressive master. Now, doesn't that sound an awful lot like slavery? Oh my, that's incredible.

That never once occurred to me before. When you point that out, that's so obvious, isn't it? It's fascinating. And so it's not to suggest that the notion of zombie doesn't exist, you know, the actual term in Haiti is zombie, but oftentimes it's a more complicated history. Oftentimes it's understood that this was a way historically of regulating and bringing justice to communities for those who have caused harm, subduing somebody who has caused harm in the community. For those who are interested in learning more about zombies, there's a fantastic documentary film done by

Professor Jay Lauren Maturi. He held a zombie conference at Duke University in 2015. A zombie conference. And it's a fantastic short documentary film. A zombie conference? I'm getting a real sense from this, that this is something else that white people have messed up. I would be inclined to agree. Yeah, yeah. We do that a lot. We've, oh, but I'm really interested in that history site. I wonder if you can tell me a little bit about the part that it played in the Haitian revolution of 1791, because I didn't know anything about this, and this was so fascinating. I love the story of the role that Vaudu played in the Haitian Revolution, and it is such an integral part of Haitian history. What's fascinating about it is that those who are Vauduisin,

meaning devotees of the religious tradition, as well as Catholics, as well as Protestants, all seem to agree that Vodou played a key role in Haitian liberation. Whether they think that's a good thing or not is perhaps a different matter, but we'll get to that in a moment. So there were, as I mentioned, enslaved Africans who were taken from many different parts of the African continent. And at the time that the Haitian revolution broke out in 1791, 60 to 70 percent of those who were enslaved in Haiti were actually African-born. They had such a high turnover because slavery was so brutal under French colonial regimes that they constantly return to Africa to import more enslaved Africans. Of those 60 to 70 percent of African-born peoples, nearly 60 percent of them were coming from

Central Africa, from the Kingdom of Congo, from the Kingdom of Rwango, from the Kingdom of Ndongu, and this is important because the Kingdom of Congo had been Catholic, or at least blending Catholicism and African indigenous religions already for 250, almost 300 years. The Kingdom of Congo converted to Catholicism in 1509. And so you had this fascinating blend. I mentioned that because a lot of people think that Christianity isn't introduced to Africans until the Americas. And that's not true for Central Africans. So back to 1791, on August 14th, 1791, a Congress was held in a place called Wakaima. Wakaima literally means the woods of the alligators, which I think we can interpret as meaning like a marsh, something like the woods or perhaps a marsh. That's where alligators live.

Kaima is actually a zayno word for alligator. And call was spread out across the nation to bring maroon peoples, meaning those who had escaped slavery and had created autonomous societies in the mountains, to bring maroon peoples, enslaved Africans, and a few free people of color to band together to fight against the French. This was really interesting because you had French people of color who had traveled to France shortly before and witnessed the French Revolution. And so there were these seeds planted. At first, the French, you know, the free people of color in Haiti were all for slavery because they would benefit from it materially. They could gain a great deal of wealth. But it was in traveling to France and seeing the French Revolution that they said, wow, this is really powerful.

And so it's in returning after the French Revolution to Haiti that free people of color banded together with enslaved Africans and with maroon societies and said, no, you must throw off the yoke of slavery. We must kick the French out. We must try to create something new. And so August 14, 1791, a ceremony takes place in Waqaima. There are many questions about what actually happened. But what we seem to know and what mythic lore tells us as well, some other historical records, is that Dati Bukman, who had been previously enslaved in Jamaica and traveled to Haiti, and possibly was Muslim, Bukman, meaning man of the book.

So possibly Muslim, very interesting. Dutti Bukman and Cecil Fatima, who was a voodoo priestess, quite likely a woman of color, meaning of mixed heritage, African and European, led a pact. led a revolutionary gathering in which they created a mystic pact with the spirits to ask for guidance, protection, and invigorated sense of brotherhood and sisterhood to fight together for freedom. Now, this is something that's, I think, very powerful because what happens afterwards, is that you have maroon peoples, free people of colors, enslaved Africans, all banding together. And after calling upon the spirits for help, they particularly called upon Yelze di Dantel.

I'll get back to her. Woman Warrior Spirit. Oh, hello. Okay. Right. A woman warrior spirit who also is the patroness of lesbians, so we can get back to that as well. Yes, yes, we will. She is called upon that evening by Cecil Fatima, who the records indicate that she, seem to have been a Vodoo priestess, but her name, Fatima, sounds an awful lot like Fatima,

which is another Arabic name and a Muslim name. So it's clear here. I'm mentioning all of these different religious threads, because that's an important part of Vodu's religious history, that you have African Catholics from Congo, who have been blending indigenous religion in their understanding of Catholicism. You have African Muslims. You have Voduizant, a sort of nascent development of this African religion in the Americas. And all of these religious traditions are blending together to create what it is we know as voodoo today. Now, I have to mention here that this ceremony, this sacred pact made with the spirits to ensure protection in the fight for liberation against an extremely brutal and horrific French colonial regime has been cited by so many

as the reason for why Haiti has suffered so much historically today. And this is something that I think really deserves unpacking. So Pat Robertson in 2010, a televangelist in the United States, said, you know, why did the earthquake happen in Haiti? Well, a lot of people don't like to talk about this, but Haiti made a pact with the devil. What a dick. Sorry. Precisely.

No, precisely. I would be inclined to agree. Mike, that's a horrendous thing to say. It's a horrendous thing to say. And it is classic. It is a classic maneuver of Protestant, specifically evangelicals. who regard, you know, any religious tradition with spirits as being demonic, as being satanic. And so it's really important that we sort of learn the history of why it is this religious tradition

with one's protective spirits has been misinterpreted as a pact with the devil, right? Let me be very clear. Haiti has experienced the earthquake of 2010 and of 2021 and all of the earthquakes prior, because Haiti lives on a fault line. Let's think about this seismologically. You have to think about this, you know, within the context of natural disaster and catastrophe. Now, the reason that Haiti was made to suffer so greatly is, I think, a worthwhile topic of exploration. After Haiti gained its independence, France demanded reparations.

France demanded that Haiti pay 150,000. million gold francs, which is the equivalent of $21 billion in U.S. currency today, which Haiti paid off in full with interest. How? By taking loans with exorbitant interest rates from Western nations, including the United States. That's just heartbreaking. So how do you build a nation when you have been forced, when you have been manipulated in the sense you've fought for your liberation into poverty. Right? So that's how we can talk about how Haiti has suffered in the sort of role of Western powers

in that. The last thing I'll say is there are two spirits who have been said to have fought during the Revolutionary War. One of them is Ogu, who is a martial spirit of war and diplomacy. He is the soldier on the front lines. He is also the general who oversees everything. and he fought with El Jolie Danto. El Jolie D'Oteau is regarded as our woman warrior.

She is the Black Madonna. She is regarded as a great mother of all. We can talk about her queerness later. But I'll note that it's fascinating, and this is such a beautiful story to me. It is said that she disguised herself as a man to fight during the Revolutionary War. And when her identity was discovered,

they, we don't know which side it was, they cut out her tongue for fear that she would betray them to the other side. So this is why she has two scars on her cheeks as a mark of her being silenced as a woman for fighting for freedom and liberation. But it is said, at least by Vauduizin, that the colors of red and blue are the colors for Oguou and Eels de de D'Ate d'Or to recognize the fact that these two spirits, these two lois, fought alongside Haitians in their struggle for independence. Wow. And they won. And Haiti became a free nation, which I suppose must have fueled the fear of their customs and practices

and must have added to the demonization of what was going on. That's absolutely right. Wow. After 13 years of struggle, Haiti gained its independence in 1804, the first Black Republic established in the Western Hemisphere, the second Republic established in the Western Hemisphere after the United States. Go Haiti. Right?

And the first nation to permanently abolish slavery And the one that was horrendously sanctioned by Europe as a result. That's right. Unbelievable. One of the things that I'm taking away from this is that it started as kind of a cultural melting pot from all over Africa. And there was kind of like disparate religious practice coming in. And how has that condensed today and what would be the primary rituals that still happen today? Could you talk a bit about that?

Sure, absolutely. So Vodu has a number of different rituals that play in importance. important role. I'll mention just a few of them. One ritual that plays a very important role, particularly in the southern regions of Haiti. So here I should note that there are different lineages of Vodu in Haiti. Northern Haiti has its own traditions of Vodu in the south. There are particular houses that ascribe to what's known as the Asso-Guei lineage, which is the formal process of initiation in a community that may not necessarily be biologically connected. But that becomes a spiritual family, if you will.

And so the initiation in the South is known as Kanzu, and it's a beautiful, beautiful ceremony. It takes place over seven to nine days. Oh, wow. Okay. It is regarded as an opportunity for one to experience a type of spiritual death so that one can be spiritually reborn. Oh, wow. And is this, I don't want to stigmatize with Hollywood nonsense, but they're kind of like the possession. You sometimes see in Hollywood.

I'm presuming that that's nonsense as well. It's not. It's not. So that's actually something that is an absolutely important role in Haitian voodoo ceremonies. In Haitian voodoo, like in many African-derived religious traditions, and I will add here, like certain Pentecostal traditions in the United States, there can be visitation from the divine world. In certain Pentecostal communities, this would be regarded as a visit from the Holy Ghost or the Holy Spirit.

In other religious traditions, Native American traditions, sometimes it can be the visitation from an ancestor. In Haitian voodoo, we can experience visitation from the spirits, from the Lois, who come and manifest in human mediums, in devotees, to deliver messages, to deliver counsel, to be propitiated. They're offered food. They're offered drink. The spirits like spirits, you know? And so they like to come and be merry, but they also will come and advise counsel,

reprimand if need be. And so, I mean, I think this is actually something that is so fascinating because in other Yoruba-derived traditions, Yoruba culture is a culture indigenous to southwestern Nigeria, and you have Ifa or Risha tradition of Nigeria. There's Lukumi or Regla de Ocha, sometimes not a Santa Ria in Cuba. There's candelamblea, specifically Kandonguetu in Brazil. All of these are more Yoruba-derived traditions. In the Yoraba derived traditions, you can only be ritually mounted. That's the term we use instead of possessed. It's a better translation in many languages. No, I love that. Yeah. It's as if a horse is being ridden by a master because it's understood that they are separate entities, but that they can come together. And the spirit in this sense, in Haitian Kael, you would say Loa Montezueli.

the spirit rides its horse. That's the literal translation. In Yoraba, it's the same thing. The word mounting is used in Yoruba. So in Yoruba traditions, you can only be ritually mounted by the spirit who crowns your head. So if you are a child of Obatala, a spirit of wisdom and peace, if you're a child of Oshun, a spirit of love, fertility, abundance, you can only be ritually mounted by Obatala or Oshun. In Heshan Vodu, you can be visited by Eishun.

any loa, any spirit in the pantheon. I've seen similar things like that and so many religions of people being visited by a higher power or communing with something and that is demonized. That's held up as something sacred. And you've mentioned the loire. Are they like saints? Yes. You're not entirely incorrect. I think that part of the reason that Catholicism and Haitian voodoo were able to communicate, I won't say get along because Catholicism has proven a brutal regime in Haiti and really there have been a lot of anti-superstition campaigns, quote unquote, against Vodou led by the Catholic Church. But I think part of the reason that cultural and religious translations were able to take place

between the two is because Catholicism has the saints. So in Haitian Vodou, as in many world religions, you have a supreme creator. In Haiti, we say that there's only one god, Maudieu, which literally is a translation from the French good god. In Haitian voodoo, we have spirits, not gods, but spirits. And like Catholic saints, they each serve over different domains of the world. So you have Aguil who is the captain of the seas and his mermaid queen, La Sirene, who is the spirit of the depths and of wisdom and of divination. Unlike her.

Yeah, there's some powerful, powerful different spirit energies. And you would pray to these different spirits, not. because God can't hear us, but God is busy. God may not have time to worry about you and taking this little test. He's like the CEO of the company, right? You don't email him. Precisely. You don't email the CEO. You've got customer services. Exactly. It's right. There's a whole brigade. Wow. I'm a historian of sexuality, so I've got to go back to the sexuality of some of these spirits. And I'm fascinated by there's a queerness and a fluidity to them. Yes. I think that that's such an important and under-discussed aspect of Haitian voodou, and it is one of the things that

my students love to learn about the most. I bet. Yeah. In Haitian vood, we have a lot of spirits who are married to one another or who have romantic relationships to one another. So I'll be freeda is a spirit of love, a fortune, of abundance. She's also a very savvy businesswoman. She has three husbands, which I love. Savvy, indeed. You'd need business skills for that, wouldn't you? She's married to Ogu, the warrior who fought during the Haitian Revolution. She's married to Papa Dumbala, who is a wise elder spirit of peace. And she's also married to Agway, our captain of the seas. Now, her sister, Yeruli Dantot, the Black Madonna, is regarded as the patroness of lesbians, of women who love women, and of queer peoples.

She herself is said to have both male and female lovers. So one of her husbands is Simbi, but Simi. is a spirit who has masculine and feminine manifestations, and some simbi are androgynous. Simbi is a spirit of rivers, of healing, of magic, and of initiation. And, you know, water spirits are a bit more fluid, literally, you know, gender fluid, we might say. And so she has, you know, Simbina-Dlo, for instance, is regarded a lot of times as feminine. Simbi Makaya is regarded as a masculine simbi.

And so it is said, you know, I think that this is really. important for us to talk about because I think a lot of my students grow up and, you know, members of this next generation are growing up feeling very disconnected from religion because they feel like the orthodoxy doesn't allow them to be their full selves, especially, for instance, if they're queer. Rather, that means they're trans, whether they're gender non-binary, whether they're a lesbian, whether they are feeling boxed by these labels that they don't feel accurately represent them. And being introduced to a religious philosophy and a religious tradition that provides more room for gender expression, for sexual orientation,

because you see it in the divine world, I think is really powerful and liberating. It's hugely powerful, isn't it? I remember when I read about two spirit people in certain Native American communities, and that again is something that's been largely written out. because the people doing the writing are colonizing and pushing white Protestantism, Catholicism, and it's just not part of their worldview or it was horrendously demonized. And when you start to uncover this, you realize that there are faiths and people all around the world who looked at sexuality very, very differently from the way that we have been taught. That's right. And that's something that you see on the African continent.

There are people who say, oh, you know, homosexuality didn't exist on the continent. That's nonsense. Of course, they require people all over the world. If we were to have such different representations of goddesses or of spirits, I think that could really expand our understandings of how we can be in the world, ourselves, whatever that might mean. It's fascinating to think, isn't it? Is that if we had created a world where these things were options instead of shaming them, it would be vastly different. That's right. I'm going to have to ask you as well about the dolls, because I'm going to assume that they're nonsense as well. I suppose kind of what I want to know is what I'm hearing from you is it's so

passionate and it's so gentle really these practices that you're talking about. What is it like when you see these beliefs being stigmatized and the voodoo doll, for example? What's that like for you? Yeah, I mean, as somebody of Haitian descent, it's infuriating and it's part of a long legacy of not only racism but religious racism. It is racism, isn't it? That's what it is, basically. It is. It's racism and specifically it's religious racism. Yeah. So this is a term introduced by Brazilian candomblea devotees. And here I have to cite the work of Gachel Cantav and Danielle Boas, who have done amazing work to sort of introduce this term into academic spaces. But it's a term from Brazilian devotees explaining this isn't just a demonstration of racism and anti-blackness.

That's only one level of it. It is a religious prejudice that is deep. rooted in anti-blackness. People are afraid of this religion because of its Africanness. Yeah. Because of its blackness, right? It's not just the same as religious prejudice against ex-religion, right? It is because it is African that it is so demonized. And that's something that we really have to think about. So voodoo dolls, I mean, once again, this is something that you see in Haiti that is completely misinterpreted. We do have cloth dolls in Haiti that are used in ritual. They're typically used in rituals to bring a couple back together, actually. So you would have like a couple represented that would be bound together if there's been strife or conflict. Or if there's

been difficulty in the relationship, there may be efforts to like end or sever the relationship with these dolls by kind of separating the two of them ritually. Those are especially used in the context of relationships where there's domestic violence or abuse, right? This whole idea of sticking needles and pins into dolls. It seems very strange. Let me give two possible origins, and there's some really interesting articles. Armistage is one person who has written about this. One suggestion is that in ancient Congo, so we're going back to our Congo reads again, there are the sacred vessels known as Minkisi, and they take many different forms, but one form is known as the Enkisi and Kondi, which is a statue that has anthropomorphic qualities. It looks like a person that is imbued with spirit, that's

empowered by spirit and that has nails driven into it. The work of Enkisi and Kondi comes from Kukonda, the hunter. It is a spirit that seeks justice for those who have been wronged. And Europeans became fascinated with Minkisi and Kondi. They thought it was so exotic and so strange looking and so terrifying. But what's interesting is that actually we started to see a proliferation of these specific types of Minkisi after colonization. Why is that important? because some of the religious iconography that was introduced by Catholics included the crucifix. I was just thinking that. I was thinking, like, to demonize this is pretty balshy for a religion that literally has dolls of a guy with nails through his hands and feet, right?

As the primary symbol of the religious tradition, right? That is the iconography of Christianity. The symbol is this martyr who was brutally killed on a state. And so that's, I think, very fascinating. So some people suggest Volavkova is a curator who suggests that actually the Minkisi may have inspired these voodoo dolls, even though it's ironic because they may be inspired by Catholic imagery. But somebody else has written, I can't think of the name, but somebody else has written a very interesting suggestion, which is that in Haiti, in the 1950s,

there were these cashew dolls that were made, made of cashew nuts. They were exported to the United States, and they had these little eyes made of a very particular bean. but the particular bean, if ingested, could result in, it was like it has a similar toxin that poison ivy does. So children who ingested the eyes of this cashew nut doll could be fatally injured. Oh, that's fascinating. But that only happened in the 1950s. Voodoo dolls are much newer, interestingly. And so there's suggestion that actually that scare over real dolls that were being exported to the,

the United States may have led to these strange sorts of ideas of, oh, these are weird voodoo dolls that actually were secular dolls made for a mass consumer audience. So there's a lot of different sort of complexities here. And I just want to go back very quickly to one last thing about queerness, because I think it's also important to note here that I don't want to suggest that there's no homophobia or heterosexism in Haiti, right? Like all regions of the world, patriarchy is a very real problem that we deal with in Haiti. But what I will say is to disrespect somebody because of their queerness, because of their difference with regards to gender identity or sexual orientation, would be in this case to disrespect the spirits themselves. Wow. Yeah. It's so

empowering just to hear you say that it's fascinating that you would be a child of these spirits and deities. It's incredible. Honestly, I could talk to you forever. about this. You've been so fascinating and so enlightening. But I'm going to have to finish off. And I was just wondering, if people want to find out more about this, are there organizations that you would recommend, are the people that you work with? Where would you send them? Absolutely. So for those who are interested in reading a little bit more about my work, they can feel free to check out my academia web page. I have all of my publications listed there. For those who are interested in learning more about Haitian voodoo, especially as a sort of deep dive and understanding of this religious tradition,

please feel free to follow the work of Kosamba. I'm the vice president of Kosamba, and it is scholarly organization for the study of Haitian voodoo. We hold different virtual events. We had our first event in January. It will be dance workshops virtually. There will be conferences. And the second organization I should mention is Addressa. I'm a leadership council member for Addressa, the African and Diasporic Religious Studies Association. We hold virtual conferences. It's a wonderful way to learn more about African-derived religious traditions on the continent and in the African diaspora. You have been so wonderful to talk to. Thank you so much for giving us your time today. Absolutely. It was a pleasure to join you. Thank you. After a short

break, I'll be back with Elizabeth James to talk about Louisiana and New Orleans Voodoo. More after this. Thank you so much for joining me today. Elizabeth James, I'm so excited to talk to you. And I can't pretend I'm no expert at all when it comes to Voodia. I'm not even intermediary level, which is why I'm so thrilled that you are here and you've given me your time and your expertise today. And I'm going to start with the most basic question. It's such a world away from the stereotypes and the misconceptions and I suppose what we see in Hollywood films. Why is Voodoo so misunderstood? Well, I believe it's about honestly ignorance.

people just don't know. And so many things that people don't know, they're afraid of. And I believe that what happened is because when Africans were brought over through the slave trade to all the various countries where they were taken, many of them tried to find and hold on and retain some semblance of their culture. So, particularly in New Orleans where my family, is from Louisiana, it came about because the folks were granted time in order to really have the day to themselves. So because of that, they would gather, particularly in New Orleans, in a place called Congo Square. And Congo Square was where they could all kind of gather many of them because they didn't speak the same language. One thing they did have was the drum. So they would be

drumming, and because of that, you know, they would dance and, of course, all the stressors that come with being enslaved, but, you know, they would really try to take the time to find the connections with anybody who also practiced the same faith that they did. Because of that, of course, that gave a negative connotation because it was blackness. It was underground. The slave owners didn't know what they were looking at. Some of them became intrigued and would come to Congo Square as well to kind of check out and see what was happening. But it was really fascinating because what ended up happening was the enslaved Africans because they were forced to become baptized, particularly in New Orleans and Louisiana by Roman Catholics, they began to syncretize

the two. So, for example, if you're in Catholic Church, you have the saints, you have Mother Mary, you have Jesus, and each of them have a corresponding Loa or a spirit that is also connected to it. And so that was a way that also seemed very confusing and scary. Tied in with that was the fact that the Haitian Revolution had occurred. That, of course, was the worst thing possible for slave owners because this was the only country that usurped the colonizers and took their free. So, of course, because they also practiced voodoo in Haiti, of course, the whole notion of it became very evil because they wanted to squelch any type of thought that enslaved folks would have here in the U.S. Thomas Jefferson in particular refused to even have any trading with Haiti because they just didn't want to have anybody get that notion in their head that they could revolt, even though there were many.

mutinies. When you are practicing, when you're within the faith, there are certain ceremonies and things that are being done. There's a center pole that folks dance around. And when you dance, which you still see in some traditional Christian churches, they'll say they get happy and they become kind of taken by the spirit. Well, if you see that and that's not a part of your faith, it looks really frightening. However, the person is ecstatic who is experiencing it. So again, that looks scary. That's ignorant.

Yes. By the time it comes to films, well, it really is incredible because one of the early films was called White Zombie. And it starred Bella Lagosi. So Bella Lagosie already had established himself like a horror actor. And so because of that, you have this really incredible kind of merging of him being already seen as a monster, you know, in terms of Dracula, tied together with this depiction of him, which was kind of interesting that they would have him be a humbocure, someone who was like a high priest.

I don't know how that all got mixed together. But because of that, Hollywood begins this trend of having these really crazy depictions of something they really didn't know anything about, but they were just kind of making it up as they go. So you have, for example, things like voodoo dolls. I was going to ask you about those. They're not a thing. It's just nonsense. Not a thing. You know, people in New Orleans sell them, you know, because they're big for tourists.

But not a thing. you may have, like my altar in my home, I have dolls, but they're representing ancestors. So what people were looking at, they're not understanding that, you know, like you may have a momental, like one of my things on my altar is like a pair of my mom's earrings because they were her favorite ones. So it's kind of like, okay, if you see that and you're thinking, oh my gosh, this is, you know, something evil. But it's really more about. veneration than these notions of casting spells. There's so much misunderstanding here,

but it also sounds like there's a lot of profiting off this misunderstanding. If it's in films and it's kind of this ridiculous narrative, there's money to be made there. Oh, so much money. And of course, Hollywood wants to play off of it. And the thing that particularly is strange is so many of the films involve white people,

like a very popular one is Skeleton Key with Kate Hudson. Well, the protagonists of the movie are whites. And then behind the scenes, the twist of the movie is that there are these two black hoodoo folks, and they're getting it all confused because hoodoo is more ethnobotanical. It's more dealing with home remedies, things that people may have perceived across the South folks not having access to health care. So they're using, like say my grandmother always had peppermint growing in the garden for your tummy if it didn't feel well. So you've got like home remedies mixed in with what people are calling voodoo.

And it's all garbled in this movie. And yet people walk away from it thinking, oh, this is what's really happening down there. That must be so difficult for you being. somebody that practices Vuju is part of your faith to see that misrepresentation on screen? I think it's just, you know, something you get used to because you know that folks just don't know what they're really looking at. I remember younger, it wasn't even that we called it anything. It was almost like a child who's been brought up in two languages. So it's like if I go into church and I'm looking and I see Mother Mary, like a statue of

Mary. I recognize that she's Mary, but I also recognize that she could stand for West African Yoraba people, Yem-A-Maya, or she could stand for, say, I'm a child of Ye, Ye, Oshun, or Marie Erzely in New Orleans. So they have multiple names, depending upon where you are, what region you're coming from. Now, you grew up in New Orleans, so is New Orleans of food you different from other practices? Tell me about that. That would be amazing. Yep. In fact, I actually grew up in Detroit. You know, my grandmother's family was from Louisiana. But, you know, just as with all folks, mostly in the U.S., you know, we have a lot of migration. So for her, moving to the north, provided more access to different types of jobs. So she came north. But yes, Haitian voodoo is

different than mostly because of the names we use. A lot of the things. like if I walked into a ceremony, I would know what I was looking at. But it's still particular things that are different. You know, like we don't have certain things like my grandmother, for example, she was a vegetarian. So, you know, when people talk about sacrifice for us, we had flowers and different types of things that spoke to the Loa. So it all depends on the individual faiths in New York and other places. They have larger groups of people. It's believed there's well over in New York alone, perhaps, up to half a million people.

And so, you know, people are not aware of how prevalent it is and how more people I think I've found since I was a little girl. There's more and more people open to finding out about the traditional African faiths because it was something that was considered even within black communities to be like, known and evil. So pulling that all together, it's kind of like realizing that you're beautiful for continuing your traditional faith from your community as opposed to being embarrassed or ashamed of what you are. Wow. There is a really long history with this faith, isn't there? And tell me a little bit about who Marie LeVos is. Oh, Mama Marie. Mama Marie, I love that. I have a beautiful work of art of her even in my bedroom. You know, it keeps me close to home, just looking over and being able to see her. You know, she was a priestess in New Orleans, you know, born in 1801. So she was a real person versus the Eresia and the Loa, their energy spirits. So with Marie, she was an actual woman. She was a very powerful. woman. And she too played into kind of keeping up that mysterious and somewhat intimidating kind of vibe.

So because of that, she was a hairdresser. And so she was gaining information from people. Of course, as you're getting your hair done, people talk. And so then she'd take that, manipulated and then people would think this was something where she was forecasting things. Now, of course, she did have the energies and would dance in Congo Square and would be a part of the community in that way. But she's also using it as a means of gaining power and access within the city. She was born a free woman of color, so New Orleans again has all of this miscegenation, people intermarrying, there would be slave owners who would have children, but then they would send them to Paris to be educated. So you've got this whole kind of intermixing

that's very different than what you see in other areas across the south. Well, Marie is taking advantage of that. She's really using it for charity, like St. Louis Cathedral. She worked with the prisoners, she would take food to the prisoners. She would use her clout to help free people who were unjustly jailed, all of these different things. She's, as they say, working her magic all around. And she was known as the voodoo queen, wasn't she? Yeah. And there are voodoo queens, usually the priestesses of the different groups that are around in the city or across the country. And the queens have a different kind of representation. Somehow they don't come off as dangerous as, say, the Boccoors or the male priests.

And I've always wondered about that. I don't know if people are not as frightened by women or what was going on, but they often had as much, if not greater power, because they were able to do so much. But you see her, like, appearing over and over, like American horror stories. of our big TV show over here in the U.S. So that's her legacy. She still features as a character.

Yep. Angela Bassett played her. But she brought her up to modern times. So what happened with Marie was when she passed away, she had a daughter, Little Marie. So people thought they were seeing Marie, but it wasn't Marie. It was Little Marie, and Marie had gotten older.

but she was still in her home and little Marie's out there and people are like, oh my gosh, Marie Levo Gros doesn't grow older and it's perpetuating this image that is just so incredible. And I think that because of that, again, she had a snake, which the snake stands for Dumbala, the creator god. And so you still see in New Orleans, you'll go into some shops. and they're just trendy tourist traps. And there's like a big snake in the back. And it's like they're just trying to perpetuate that image that Marie had with her pet snake.

It was like really, really interesting how you see vestiges of it to this day. Oh, Mama Marie. What an amazing woman. Oh, she was. Very smart and very clever in the ways that she was able to use. her leverage to really help affect change and help a lot of people's lives. But again, because she was so mysterious, leaves us with this kind of conjure woman. The women of that day had to wear tignans. They had to have their hair covered. And so because of that, here's this woman with her head

wrapped. And it's just really, really incredible. But she's just that part of New Orleans. Songs about There's so many songs and just continuing to this day. So it just is kind of like an inside joke. And speaking of amazing women, tell me about you and your faith and how you practice voodoo today and what that means to you. It means so much. I'm a person very close to my family.

And so for me, it's a way to still remain connected to them. And for us, death is just like a very, veil. So when they say that someone has passed away, they're just beyond the veil. So it helps you understand that our time here on Earth is just very limited. But once you cross over or pass over, you become stronger and more powerful because you're not encumbered by the physical body anymore. So you can call upon grandmother, great-grandmother. In my family, we can go back seven generations in Louisiana. So, you know, it all depends on who's the person who is coming up in it, I think, because

I was the oldest grandchild. My grandmother, when we would be outside, she was showing me different flowers and different herbs and things that you could use for healing purposes. She would talk to me about just all different types of things. And so it seemed very natural. It didn't seem like this very, very... frightening depiction that you see or you read about. So often later, as I grew older and started reading about this,

I didn't even recognize that this was the same thing I was growing up in. And how do you think that voodoo is changing? Do you sense a change with it? I know that you've consulted with companies like Disney, because they're now becoming aware that perhaps depicting it all as devil worship is a really crappy thing to do. Right. And so do you feel that there's a shift happening?

I too. I feel that more African Americans are embracing it in that they're not seeing it as something frightening or horrible or something that should be degradated. They're starting to understand that this is a traditional faith in much the same way that, say, when I visited England and I went and saw some of the spaces where the indigenous people of the region had, many similar things in terms of being close to the earth and really respecting nature and understanding that those forces have long outlasted any human. So why are we trying to push, as my grandmother used to always say, you know, it's about flowing with the river, not trying to swim upstream? That's beautiful. And I've learned so much from you already, and I would stay here talking to you for days if I could, but just to sort of finish it up, what would you want people to know about voodoo today?

That it's a natural thing, that it's just a matter of kind of embracing and being open to learning about other cultures because some of the things that we find confusing or terrifying, if you look deeper into it, you find that it's not what you think it is at all. And again, over and over, we have to learn this and relearn this as humans. We try to compartmentalize one another and, you know, oh, your skin color is different.

Oh, your hair is different. Oh, your body type's different. And those things separate us. And I have one of my favorite quotes is by Myangelo, we are more alike than unalike. And I think it's true. The more I travel, the more I see the people of the world, you know, we really are more alike. And that's why I find voodoo everywhere I go, because it is just a matter of kind of taking in a moment at the Grand Canyon and seeing something that's so majestic. And you realize there's something greater than yourself.

Oh, thank you so much for joining me today to speak about this, Elizabeth. You've been absolutely wonderful. I'm so grateful. you. Oh, thank you. So that's it for today. I hope that you've enjoyed learning more with me and thank you so much to my guests, Kira Daniels and Elizabeth James. If you've liked what you've heard, please don't forget to like, review and subscribe wherever it is that you get your podcasts. We've got episodes on the history of boob jobs, on Queen Victoria's appetites and eating habits and the origins of shoes all coming up. So join me again betwixt the sheets. The History of Sex,

Scandal in Society, a podcast by History Hit.