Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Wallis Simpson

Episode Date: January 27, 2023

She is surely one of the most fascinating figures in royal history. Perceived as a bad match for Edward VIII, Wallis Simpson is at the centre of the scandal surrounding his abdication.But what do we know about her life besides this? From childhood to exile - Anne Sebba introduces us to the Duchess of Windsor.*WARNING there are adult words and themes in this episode*Produced by Charlotte Long and Sophie Gee. Mixed by Joseph Knight.Betwixt the Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society. A podcast by History Hit.For more History Hit content, subscribe to our newsletters here.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. Now, my producers have said that they don't think that we need a fair do's warning for this episode. So, are you just prepared to just take your chances? I don't know.

It sounds kind of risky. We're talking about Wallace Simpson and Royal Scandals today. You might be shocked. You might be. And because you haven't had a proper fair do's warning, I don't know what that means. Although technically, I suppose, be saying that you don't get a fair do's warning for this episode is kind of a fair do's warning.

Hmm, how very meta. Anyway, anything could happen on this one, guys, and if you get offended, I don't know what to tell you. Let's do this. Today, we are diving into the life of someone who is often depicted as manipulative, an American divorcee who is sabotaging the monarchy. No, no, we're not talking about Megan Markle, but her great, great aunt-in-law, Wallace Simpson. But what if the widely known legacy of Wallace Simpson isn't all that nuanced? What if there's more to her and her life other than her marriage and her husband and him abdicating the throne?

What if she was depicted unfairly in the media? I know, that seems impossible to imagine such a thing. I mean, would that ever happen now? Of course not. So how could it have possibly happened in the 30s? Today, we are looking into the world of Wallace Simpson, the whole picture. The good, the bad, the very, very ugly. From extroverted student, expat living in Shanghai,

to meeting the future King Edward VIII in London, to broken marriages, honeymoaning in Nazi Germany, and tensions within the royal family. Join me betwixt the sheets to find out more. What do you look for a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect confidence of whatever my boss needs

by just turning enough and pushing the button. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, my beautiful dance. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Dary. Hello, and welcome back to Patrick the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society. With me, Kate Lister. Before we get going, I want to make a quick announcement,

listen up, gather round. We have a brand new shiny email address for all of your episode suggestions. And not just episode suggestions, thoughts, comments, interesting things that you want to say to us, there is now a way for you to contact us. So if there is something that you just wish that we would talk about, a historical question you're desperate to know the answer to,

or if you just wanted to say hi, you can now email us at betwixt at historyhit.com. Betwixt at history hit.com. All lowercase. Got that? All right. Wallace Simpson is widely known for her role in one of the biggest scandals to rock the British monarchy.

Referred to only as That Woman by the late Queen Mother, Wallace lived an eventful life. And today I'm joined by biographer Anne Seba, who says Wallace gave up much more than Edward the 8th, who abdicated the throne to marry her. Righteo? On with the show. Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets and Seba. How are you? I'm extremely well. It's a sunny day at last. How are you? It's very drizzly in Leeds. I know there's no drama in Drizzle, is there? just like be frosty or be sunny, but just this kind of grey dirge.

That's how I am. But I'm very pleased to be talking to you about one of the most fascinating characters in royal history, surely, Wallace Simpson. Well, you're absolutely right. And that was my starting point when I wrote my biography about her, because I think the reason why she continues to fascinate is that everybody assumed Edward or David, as she called him, but let's stick to Edward was considered such a handsome, charming, wonderful prince. He could have had any woman he wanted. Why on earth did he pick this woman who was perceived as not very beautiful,

rather plain, made the best of herself, two living husbands. What on earth was it about her that made this wonderful prince give up everything in order to live with and I hope I've turned the story on its head rather by showing that he was the one who desperately needed her and chased her, not the other way around. She's so fascinating because, like you said, there's all this, I don't know if it's mystique around her, but that sense of like, well, why her? What was she doing that was so amazing that the prince threw away the crown to be with this woman?

And the accusations is that she was older, she was American, she was divorced. She'd learned her sexual skills in a Shanghai, Rothal, amongst other things that I've heard about it. Well, some of that is true. She was accused of being a gold digger. Well, I don't think she was a gold digger so much as desperately in need of security. And he offered her security. But I think it's a much more complex problem than that.

And we need to look at both Edward and her. So Edward, I believe, would have taken the throne, but he wasn't that keen. And he could have done it if he'd had one. Wallace by his side, but actually she offered an opportunity for a quieter, calmer life. I think he always knew he wasn't quite up to it. He could never be the macho figure that his father, King George, was. And above all, the duty of a king of Britain is to produce an heir. And I think he knew he was never going to produce an heir. So all of this plays into it. But why was Wallace so fascinating? Well, she wasn't like any English rose who his father would have liked him to marry.

She was a woman of the world. She'd traveled. She was clever. She was intelligent. She was witty and spirited. And above all, she was not deferential. I think Edward was fed up with being surrounded by people who did his bidding. On the one hand, he was fed up with it.

On the other hand, he rather liked it. He was a bit like a spoiled schoolboy. He expected people to do it. But Wallace answered him back, and she was so funny, and he liked that. So that was the first attraction that she was witty and spirited. She had traveled. She'd been in China, as you alluded to. She'd lived in Washington.

She'd probably worked for the American government by transporting papers or documents to China. You know, this was someone who really understood the world scenario, perhaps not very well. but better than anyone else he'd been introduced to. And he liked all of that. It gave him some grounding that here was a woman who could read the newspapers, which wasn't something he was terribly good at. So there was partly that she'd been married twice, so she had sexual experience,

or she was still married to Ernest Simpson when they met. So all of that played into it, a witty, spirited woman of the world who required some security, and Edward offered her that security. He started paying her money, all of which is why the whole thing got out of control. I can understand that. If the prince or the king turned up and was offering you a lot of money and I would go for it. I don't know that says a lot about my morals, but I can totally understand that. Well, can we go back a bit to why Wallace needed that security? You see, her father died when she was only a few months.

old. Her mother was a single parent. I didn't know that. Well, that's actually key to understanding Wallace. Lots of people see her as this 41-year-old woman who was a Nazi, a gold digger, an adulter, everything was thrown at her. And what I tried to do is look back and see what made her into this 41-year-old woman. She didn't jump fully formed onto the British scene. So in these 40 years, Her father died when she was a few months old. She actually came from a high-born family in Baltimore. Both sides of her parents came from good Baltimore stock. So later on when the queen mother calls her the lowest of the low,

that's absolutely not true. She had no money, but she was born into patrician families in Baltimore. So her mother is really insecure, tries to sell embroidery to the local craft shop, that's not going to do much, then opens a restaurant, marries twice more, the husbands die, there's never any money. Wallace was determined to marry someone who offered her a bit of security. It's interesting, you know, nowadays as a modern woman, you'd say, well, why didn't she look to herself to earn money? For a woman in the early 20th century, that wasn't an option. So she thought, I've got to marry money, I've got to marry a diplomat where he sees me as, you know,

essential or perhaps a military person. That's who she set her sights on. And it didn't work out until she met the prince. And suddenly she was advising the Prince of Wales. I can understand that fear of poverty and fear of insecurity and precarity when she's grown up in a single-parent family and watched her mother struggle to make ends meet without a man and then with a man, but that still went wrong, I can understand that need to marry and I need to marry well. And she was right for the time. You know, we can kick around whether that was acceptable or right or wrong. But the bottom line was women on their own had a damn hard time of it and your best bet was to marry and marry well. Well, you've got it. And she didn't think that the prince would marry

her, actually. She thought she'd married Ernest Simpson, who was the sign of a shipping family and that he would provide for her. Well, shipping at this time, don't forget it's the Great Depression. She married in 28 and shipping was not doing well. So they didn't have enough money even to keep their modest-ish flat in marble art. It was fairly beautifully decorated. It was good enough to entertain the prince, but it wasn't a grand country house. And what she said to the Prince of Wales was, oh, I know you're teasing me. You're a tease to every woman. You're not going to marry me. And he said, no, you're different. And he started putting money in a trust fund in Canada for her. He bought her furs and jewels. She and Ernest almost didn't have

enough money for their own to pay the rent on their flat in Bryanston Court. So picture the scene. The Prince of Wales comes in. Ernest is a great snob. He thinks, oh, this is wonderful. I've been taken up by British society. I'll let my wife have this affair because it's good for us both. And the result is that Edward is paying money, which gives Wallace this security. And she's convinced that as soon as he's king, as soon as George of the Fifth dies, she'll be dumped. She was right historically. That's what happened to mistresses in history.

But the difference was that actually this prince, when he became king, needed her desperately. So I think I see it as a slippery slope. She entertained the prince. He thought it was wonderful and she was reading newspapers and explaining the world scene. Everyone in the court thought, who is this awful woman? That woman, that's how the phrase started. She's obviously just after money. And they didn't realize that actually it was Edward, who was more in need of her than she was of him.

I mean, she was in need of him, but she didn't think her whole life would be dependent on him. Where did that woman come from? Had she always been outgoing and flirty and all of those things? I love it that you've absolutely understood her. I went to her school. It was a sort of finishing school in Maryland called Oldfields. Well, we're very proud of her there. She's the people who bagged a prince.

They think it's wonderful. But they told me stories of how she behaved as a schoolgirl and how she flirted. She always needed a man to confirm her. femininity, her success. One day, she jumped from a terrace to meet a boy and a car waiting for her, and she chose the restaurant, really expensive restaurant, and he couldn't afford it, and he had to send his father the next day to pay the bill. They told me how she was always a girl who needed to make an entrance into a room. So although she didn't have much money, she'd cut out

magazine articles and go to a dressmaker and have the dressmaker make the outfit. So from a child, she was a girl who pushed boundaries, who really other parents were terrified that their daughters might be friendly with. She was that sort of girl. So when she came to England, there was said to be this dossier, the China dossier, that Queen Mary, Edward's mother and Prime Minister Baldwin had compiled, which was meant to have details of all the sexual shenanigans she'd got up to when she'd been in the Far East. I've searched for the dossier. I don't think it existed. Just about to say, does it exist? I promise you, I have looked. But you see, that's part of the fear. Cast your mind back to the 1920s when a well-brought-up

British girl of the aristocracy would not be taught about sex. And Wallace knew about it. And that's one of the differences. And she alluded this air of experience. So the court thought, she is dangerous. And that's how the rumours started. She clearly knew how to behave around a man, how to make him feel he was the center of the room, that he was completely wonderful.

And Queen Mary started, and King George, the description of Wallace as that woman, I don't want that woman around. And they barely could refer to her under her name because they thought not only was she a gold digger and an adulteress, but because she had two living husbands, if she were to marry Edward, which indeed she did, they thought that it wouldn't last and she'd blackmail the royal family, that she was only in it for money. Well, you see, there's an element that's right. She did need the money. that's true, but it was Edward who wanted her.

They could not understand that version of the truth. They assumed it was all the time she was chasing him and she spelt danger and there might be blackmail afoot. Do we know what she was doing in Shanghai? We haven't been able to find the dossier, but that's part of her mythology, isn't it, the exoticism? What was she up to? What was she up to?

Well, her first husband, Wyn Spencer, was a pilot. near naval aviator who was stationed, first of all, in Hong Kong. So when the marriage broke up, almost immediately she was 19, just a child. And the marriage was obviously a disaster from the start. Yeah. And they were incompatible. And so she tried to get a divorce and her very wealthy uncle refused to fund a divorce. Divorce was shameful. So he said he'd cut her out of the will. she could have lived an independent life pretending to be Mrs. Wyn Spencer. So she went back to Hong Kong trying to make the marriage work for a second time. And when it didn't work, because he was violent, he took her to Sing Sing houses, which were

a version of a brothel, and they went out in threesomes and he locked her in the bathroom. I mean, he clearly was, I think there's no denying, both alcoholic and violent. So I have a lot of sympathy for Wallace trying to get out of this marriage and lead a more honest life than pretending to be married to him. So she then went to Shanghai and Peking, as it was, and shuttled between the two, as people did in the 1920s, and led an independent life as Mrs. Wyn Spencer, but not with her husband. And that's when the rumours started, because for a woman in the 1920s to lead to a woman. an independent sexually adult life was not possible. Fear of abortion, which was dangerous or illegal. So that's why the rumours started. How was Wallace able to lead this independent life?

And I think for whatever reason, she knew she couldn't get pregnant. Some rumors say she'd had a botched abortion. Some rumors say that she didn't have the sexual equipment to have children. She'd never menstruated so she knew that herself. That's why she was able to lead the life but was not available to most young women of that era in the 1920s. And men obviously found her very attractive. I'll be back with Anne and Wallace after this short break. On Gone Medieval from History Hits,

we're here to spoil you with the biggest names. Chingus Khan, the thing that really galvanised his wars of conquest was his belief that he had been given a mandate to have dominion over the entire planet. We explore new archaeological finds. After the Viking Age, lots of medieval artefacts coming out of the site as well. And delve into the lives of those you might never have heard of. He's not a bad and evil king-like King John. I'm Dr Kat Jarman.

And I'm Matt Lewis, from surviving everyday life in the Middle Ages to dynasty-shattering events. Gone medieval is the place to quench your thirst for. history. Subscribe now to Gone Medieval from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. When she first met, Edward, is that recorded, the first encounter between them? Absolutely. So in 1928, she decided what's the point of having this wonderful life? She was a bit short of money. She even played bridge and poker to win money. I mean, she was always short of cash. So she thought, I'm going to deal with my divorce from her first husband, Gwen Spencer. She went to America to Warrington, established residency, got a divorce, and her school friend from Oldfields, Mary Kirk, introduced her to Ernest Simpson at that point.

Now, Ernest was married, according to the public version of events. He was already getting a divorce, but I think Wallace just blew him off his feet. She was a woman who came into a room and everyone turned and looked. When Spencer gave her a divorce, he was very generous. He was very gentleman-like about it because divorce was a bit easier in America than England. She claimed desertion, not the truth, as I've alluded to. So she married Ernest Simpson, who was Anglo-American and started again in London in this flat at Branson Court in Marble Arch. And Ernest Simpson was handsome. I can see why Wallace was attracted to him.

But as she said to her aunt, he was kind. So I think she was really looking for a new start in England where nobody knew her. And almost immediately she was introduced to the Prince of Wales because she was American. And it was known that he liked everything. American. He liked the superficiality of jazz and painted fingernails on the telephone and democracy and those things. But he really loved American women. So his then mistress was the half American Telma Furness.

Telma had to go on a trip and she said to the prince, look, while I'm away, there's this very funny, witty American woman. I know you'll like her and introduce Wallace Simpson. And of course, he liked her. And the affair took off very shortly while Telma was away. And, you know, Wallace established a reputation almost immediately as a hostess with a difference. She served American food. So Wallace got a reputation and the Prince of Wales came regularly thereafter. It must have been very exotic. I know like now we're still very familiar with American culture and American cuisine, but in the 1920s it was very far away land.

And although we were still importing some of their culture, but this brash, loud speaking, American woman of the world who serve an American food and with American accent, I can see why that would bowl someone over. I can see why that would make somebody fascinating. Especially someone like Edward who was trying to work out his role in life and rejecting what he saw as the staid Victorian conformity of his father and his father's courtiers. He wanted to be a modern monarch and as if serving bacon molasses makes him a modern monarch. No, it doesn't. But it was all part of the aura as he was trying to find his way in the world and what his role could be, he thought that he'd be different and deferential. And I think it's interesting, the one thing that has survived from his uncrowned reign, because he never had a coronation, even though he became king, is what he stood for was a search for happiness, personal fulfillment.

Wallace was presented at court in 1931. Well, to have a divorced woman presented at court was really extraordinary and not the way things were done in England, but Edward made a thing about saying, oh, well, if you make a mistake and you get divorced, you've got a right to personal fulfilment. Well, we all think that nowadays, that's what he stood for. He was very progressive, but in his own way.

He was quite an odd duck in other ways, wasn't he? He had a few hang-ups, he had a few issues, just personality-wise. What should your sort of take on that? Oh, I think he was very needy. I think in the letters that I discovered, these so-called secret letters between Wallace and Ernest, where it's revealed that she didn't really want to marry this man because he was a great big overgrown baby. And Wallace did not want a baby. So she revealed to Ernest how they both saw Edward as quote unquote Peter Pan, the boy who wouldn't grow up.

He really did not want to face up to his responsibility. And Wallace knew that and knew that she would have to play to these needs. And I think he understood at a deep level that he had let his country down. He had let his family down. And therefore he needed punishment. And Wallace gave him this punishment. She spoke to him gruffly and rudely in public. She humiliated him. Many people have commented on that. And it was almost as if he felt he deserved that because he'd let his country down. And then probably they made up in the bedroom and everything was okay again. He was quite needy. He was quite obsessive, certainly obsessed with Wallace. And I sort of get the feeling that she felt a little bit suffocated by it. But then also like, what are you going to do? He's the king.

It's the prince. Once this thing has started, I guess it's very difficult to get out of. So what was their marriage like? Because you've got this Peter Pan figure, doesn't want to grow up, doesn't want responsibility, quite needy, quite obsessive and this really vivacious, independent, loud American woman. It's hard to pitch them together as a couple, isn't it? What was their marriage like? I think he was happy. Everybody who saw them said, when Wallace was in the room, he had these eyes that looked relaxed. And if she went out of the room, the puppy dog eyes would sort of follow her out. and all of that, the body language is very clear. I think he felt supremely happy and content that he had her. I don't think it was love from her perspective. I think be careful what you wish for. If you play with fire, you get burnt.

I think she felt she had given up far more than he had. He'd given up a throne and an empire and all of that. She'd given up her good name. She'd given up her freedom of action. She couldn't go to the hairdress. She couldn't even go to a Couture house to pick her own wedding dress. You know, all of that really she felt she had suffered. But nonetheless, she played along and she tried to create a sort of kingdom of style in Paris

where they ended up for her husband. She knew she couldn't get out of it. She was already the most hated woman in the world. She couldn't then junk Edward when he'd given up everything. She had to marry him. There's one BBC interview where they're both asked, do you have any regrets? And the body language for me says it all. Because Edward immediately grasps Wallace's hand and says without a blink, oh, not at all. And Wallace takes her time, pats her buffon hairstyle and says, oh, well, just a few as one does. And to me that says it all. But they jogged along. They really were part of an exiled cafe society, superficial. For me, the real criticism is not that they got married, but afterwards, why didn't they

do something with their lives? She could have set up a fashion designing competition or something, but they really lived this superficial existence, always cadging meals off people, expecting everyone else to pay for them, complaining that they never had any money. It's a sad downhill all the way existence. Wow. It kind of sounds like this was a sugar daddy that got out of control. That's what she signed up for. I think she'd have almost been happy to have just been in the role of the traditional

royal mistress. You get their money and you get their jewelry and you get influence and you know, you stay quiet. Shush, shush, you just stay out of the way and let him get on doing his king and queen stuff. And you're totally right. She actually revealed to earnest. You and I had so much going for each other. We understood each other. Where did it all go wrong? Well, she was greedy and grasping and manipulative and you make your bed and you have to lie in it. She probably would have preferred to stay married to good old boring, safe earnest with a bit more money. That was the problem. And the king provided the money, but he expected Wallace. to marry him. And that was not quite the deal that she wanted. I don't think she wanted the responsibility of being Queen. And she ended up with being Duchess of Windsor, but not even royal initials.

She wasn't even Hr-H. So she really only got half the cake, but she had to eat it. We've got to talk about the associations with Nazi Germany, I suppose, because this is something that comes up a lot when you're looking at Wallace and Edward. What is that? Were they Nazi sympathizers? I suppose is the direct question. What was going on? You're quite right to ask that one. Absolutely cannot duck it. Well, Edward, before he was Edward Windsor, the family was Saxe-Coburg.

They were Germans. Edward had lots of German cousins. He went to Germany before the war and he knew them well. He liked the Germans. He studied German at university. It was about the one thing he did well was speak German. So there are two things going on there. First of all, Edward, with his sort of vague ideas of being modern, thought that another war is a disaster.

He'd seen the carnage of World War I, and he was in the appeasement camp. But the appeasement camp verged on friendship towards Nazi Germany, believing that Hitler was a safer option than the Bolsheviks. You know, we don't want these communists here, so we better align ourselves with the Nazis because they're a safer bet for people like us. So all of that is being pro-Nazi, but I tend to say Edward was pro-German. And he was pushed into the Nazi camp a little bit because when he abdicated, he was so furious that Wallace was only made Duchess of Windsor without the royal initials. And the royal family were giving them no advice at all, nor the government. They were non-people, they were cut off. So here they are in France, married as Duke and Duchess of Windsor,

Edward thinks, where can I take my wonderful wife so she feels like a queen and she's treated properly and people curtsy to her. Oh, I know. I'll take her to meet Hitler. We'll go to Nazi Germany. They'll make a fuss. Well, of course they were going to make a fuss because behind Hitler's ideas where here's someone who's sympathetic to us, if I win this war and I occupy Britain, I'll install him as a puppet king. So they go off to Germany. They meet, Many in the Nazi high command, they talk about housing, which was something that apparently Edward was interested in. And here are these photographs of Wallace, curtseying to Hitler, smiling. Of course it's come back to haunt her as well it might. They should have known better.

And if they had read newspapers properly or books, they would have understood what was going on in Germany. In 1937, you know, it was several years after the Nuremberg laws had been introduced. Jews couldn't work, were being sent to concentration camps already. They should have known better, but Edward believed he could maybe do something, maybe avert a world war, maybe the Nazis were better than the Bolsheviks. And so I don't believe he was a full-fledged Nazi because I don't believe he read enough to know what they stood for, but he jolly well should have done and should have known better. And he was pretty close to the Nazis, too close for comfort.

So it was more stupidity and ignorance on his part than sort of a willful signing up for Nazi values. If you're being kind, I think a what if of history we'll never know if he'd been installed as a Nazi puppet king because by that point his attitude to his family was so angry and corrosive. I think he wouldn't have blinked before signing up to Nazi ideology. Certainly during the war, to be blunt, he was defeatist. And that's why Churchill had to send them out to the Bahamas,

because he was saying things like, oh, the Germans have got all this amazing equipment and they're such powerful people, I think they might win. So defeatism also verges closely on let's have the Nazis, think they'd be good for us. I think one shouldn't apologise too much for him, but he wasn't installed as a puppet king, so it has to remain in the realms of what if. So let's talk a little bit about Wallace's final years, where they ended up. What happened to Wallace in the end? Well, no palace was going to be made available for them in England. You see, Edward, when he abdicated in a hurry, thought he could come back to Fort Belvedere and just live the life of an ex-king and he'd be forgiven.

he wasn't going to be forgiven. So there was nowhere in England and his brother and sister-in-law did not want them anywhere near. So where were they going to live? They could live in Canada where he had a ranch. No, Wallace didn't want to live in a ranch in Canada. And she actually didn't want to live in America. She thought her fellow Americans wouldn't treat her properly. So they ended up in Paris and they were given this beautiful house for a peppercorn rent. And what were their final years? well, the Duke was in ill health for a lot of that time. He came back to England for operations. He smoked a lot and he got lung cancer. And he died in 1972. And then Wallace went back to Paris on her own. And those were terrifying years because her health declined as well.

And she was looked after by a battery of secretaries and her lawyer, Metro Bloom. And in the end, she was fed intravenously. And there's a story of the tubes. having to be taped to her mouth. She really was alone, a miserable, miserable existence. And she died in 1986. And she was buried at Frogmore in England alongside Edward. But they were miserable, miserable, final 14 years alone with no family and nobody to visit her. She paid a high price. Yes, but we're talking about her. I think she quite like that. That's true, isn't it? I mean, you can't say that she didn't live a full life.

And if her ambition was to marry and marry well, job done. Absolutely. She did pay a high price, but there were years when people photographed her as the most stylish woman. And she had, well, some people think it's beautiful jewelry. I think it's a bit brash, actually. Although there are some beautiful pieces. She had jewelry. Yeah, she certainly had jewelry and furs.

and clothes. What do you think, and I have to ask you this before I let you go, what about the comparisons to Megan Markle today? Because that sort of seemed inevitable, didn't it? We have another American. We have somebody that the Royal Palace is allegedly quite shocked about, that there's been some controversy about Harry marrying her. The comparisons, I suppose they were inevitable, but what's your opinion as someone who literally wrote the book on Wallace Simpson? Are the comparisons fair, or are they nonsense? What do you think? They're not nonsense. It's not nonsense. It's irresistible, an American woman who's had a career, not that Wallace had a career. I mean, Megan is much better educated, but for her time, they're both women of the world who'd been

divorced, who marry into the British royal family. So I get the comparison, it's inevitable. But the big difference is that Harry was six in line, he was never going to be king, whereas Edward was giving up a throne. And the other big difference is that divorce was so shameful. a hundred years ago, nearly 100 years ago. There's no family in the land that hasn't been touched by divorce now. So we look on divorce differently. I think the similarity is the way everybody blames the woman. So Wallace was always blamed, whereas I try and show in my book that Edward was the one who was hunting, not Wallace, he was the one who wouldn't give her up. And just to give you one example, the phrase mexit that somebody in the British press invented as if it was

Megan who invented the exit from Britain. It was Megan who was pushing. You only have to listen to Harry's story to see that actually the difficulties with his family were in place and operating long before Megan came on the scene. Harry, from the title of his book, Spare, you can see he didn't know what his role was. So he needed to find a role and arguably going to America will give him a role. I think that has yet to play out. But the big similarity for me is, oh, let's blame the woman. It's always the woman's fault. And I think we really have to see in both cases that actually these are troubled men who may have found women to satisfy them. And the jury is still out, of course with Megan and Harry, but actually I have a lot of sympathy for them,

and I hope they do find a role in America since the clearly was not one for them here, sadly. And you have just been phenomenal to talk to about this and bringing some more light and a bit more of a rounded character to Wallace Simpson, who is absolutely fascinating and remains fascinating, I think. If people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? I've got a website, www.com. I'm very approachable and there are reading group notes on my website for my books. And I hope you'll read the book and I'd love to hear from you all.

Please do it. It's absolutely fascinating and more relevant now than ever. And you've been wonderful. Thank you for talking to me today. My pleasure. Thank you. As I hope you can tell. I love talking about this subject.

Thank you for listening to today's episode. And if you like what you've heard, please do give us a follow and a review. And of course, if there's a topic that you would like us to delve into, you can now drop us an email at betwixt at history hit.com. Please do it. We love hearing from you. We've got an episode on food, sin and shame coming your way

and a special Valentine's episode on Casanova. So make sure that you are buckled up, tuned in, You wouldn't want to miss any of that. Join me again for Twix the Sheets, The History of Sex, Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast includes music by Epidemic Sounds.