Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - What Made You Ugly In Tudor Times?

Episode Date: May 16, 2025

Why did royalty have worse teeth than commoners? How would the Tudor court have smelt? And when even the Queen of England can be accused of being a witch for a random mole, what hope did the rest of us have?In this new mini-series, we'll be exploring the beauty standards - and ideas of ugliness - throughout time periods in history.In this third episode Kate is joined by historian and author Nicola Tallis, to find out how both royalty and commoners achieved the desired looks of Tudor times.This episode was edited by Tim Arstall. The producer was Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? We'll sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles.

Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister, and you are listening to, Drumroll please, da-da-da-da-da-da-dil-dil-dil-dha. Betwixt the sheets. And I'm so glad that you are, because if you weren't listening, then it's just me talking into a microphone.

And that, frankly, is just a little bit sad. But before we can keep going, and before I can let you listen to any more, I have to tell you, this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adults, and you should be an adult too. And if you can't tick all of that lot off, well then be off with you.

We don't want you hanging around here, lowering the tone, or rather raising the tone. But either way, be off with you. Right, on with the show. I'll be honest with you. I don't often get to sit at the highest tables in the land, but when I do, it's nice to indulge, isn't it? Here in the Tudor Court, it's no different.

When they're dishing out portions of eel and porpoise, It would be rude to refuse. Wise, but rude. And anyway, Big Henry's watching on, so we better all behave and tow the line. And we've got to look our best. We've got to pick our teeth clean. In order to get chunks of porpoise out from between our teeth,

we've been given golden toothpicks. A little bit extra, perhaps, but I'm here for it. Although, as it turns out, they are extremely damaging for delicate tudor teeth, which are already crumbling from this new fancy. the import of sugar. It's not a great look. And frankly, it's the tip of the iceberg as far as beauty standards in this period go. I've heard that Catherine Parr is filling a bathtub with milk down the hall. Do you want to go and have a look? Me too. Right, on with the show.

Why do you look for a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing the final. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, for a beautiful time. Goodness had nothing to do with it, there is. Hello, and welcome back to Betwix the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society. With me, Kate Lister. Whether they're suffering from smallpox scars or slapping lead-based paint all over their face,

Tudor beauty standards were, well, they weren't their best. How did the Tudor queens adhere to the beauty standards of the day? Why did you risk being accused of being a witch if you fell short? them. And why did it pay to be working class in the pursuit of beauty? Well, joining me today is friend of the show and Tudor expert Nicola Talis and she is going to help us find out. Cod pieces and lead-based foundation at the ready, everybody. Let's do it. Hello and welcome back to betwixt the sheets. It's only Nicola Talis. How are you doing? Oh, it's so nice to be back, Kate. I'm doing great. We had so much fun on our little mini-series of the

six wires of Henry the 8th and people were very, very much in love with you. It has to be said. Oh, that's nice. We got all kinds of nice feedback. I know. I know. So of course we had to get you back for this one for beauty standards in the Tudor period. Yeah, it's so nice. Did I tell you that I used to be a beauty therapist? No, what kind of beauty therapist? Well, not a very good one actually. I don't believe that. Yeah, I didn't do it for very long. But yeah, I used to do nails and waxing and massage and all sorts. The whole works. Well, then you are the most perfect person.

So this is part of a sort of a mini series that we're doing on how to be beautiful in various time periods. Because it changes, but then it doesn't change at the same time. But each period has got things that make it very, very unique to them. Let's start with a real basic question before we even get on to how people looked. What do you define as the Tudor period? What sort of dates are we looking at for this? Yeah, so the Tudor period really dates from 1485

when Henry VIII when Henry VIII was in 1603 when his granddaughter Elizabeth I first dies. It's a period of just over 100 years. Is it called the Tudor period in anywhere else apart from the UK. What was it called? In Italy, they can't have been called it the Tudor period.

What would they have called it? Well, that's a good question, really. I guess they would have kind of referred to it in more general terms, in terms of who was actually on the throne at the time. So during the reign of Henry the 7th, it would have been termed the Henry Tidder period because that's what everybody,

all of Henry's enemies, kind of tried to disparage him by picking on his name a bit. But by Henry VIII, people are a bit more respectful. People are thinking of him very much as kind of a Renaissance prince. And yeah, Renaissance. So they're very much part of the Renaissance period. And then, yeah, by Elizabeth, you've got good old Gloriana on the throne. So people are kind of, yeah, thinking of it as that kind of golden age of queenship in some ways.

I think we could sort of broadly call it the Renaissance as well. Like that encompasses more than the UK, doesn't it? Yeah, definitely, definitely. Yeah, so we are part of that, yeah. And despite the fact that there is sort of a popular myth out there that people in the past smelt terrible, looked terrible, were covered in warts and were just generally vile, beauty and looking good and being attractive

was very important to these people, was it not? Yeah, no, it really. was and actually this whole kind of idea that they didn't wash and they had poor hygiene. I mean, a lot of it is kind of true in some respects, but there is more to it. It's just, it's not just that they couldn't be bothered to wash. It was thought that having kind of layers of grime and dirt on you to a certain extent offered you a bit of protection from illness and that you were leaving yourself more vulnerable to becoming unwell if you were to wash too regularly. And, you know, we do see particularly Henry the ape he's really really keen on hygiene and you know we see people

washing their hands a lot they get given these finger bowls to wash before and after meals and at Hampton court for example Henry the ape has a bathroom installed with a bath that has hot and cold running water so yeah it's not that people just can't be bothered to wash it is a bit of a myth and it is very much going on like people believed that illness was also passed through the air with bad smells. So there's no way that you wanted to kind of smell too bad. No. No. And also people were, they were making do with what they had, I guess. Like, you know, they were doing their best. But if you're in somewhere like London, which is not the sprawling metropolis that it is today, but it's still a big place. Like getting fresh water,

access to that and being able to heat it up, that's something rich people. do. But even the poorest people, they would have tried. They would have been like wet rags and things that they would have washed themselves with. Yeah, definitely. And you see women in particular who are basically sponge washing themselves every day. So yeah, they're not having, they're not having a bath daily. They're not definitely not having a shower daily. But yeah, they are doing their best, like you say, with what they've got available to them. And of course, the richer you were that meant that the more access you have, had to these kinds of products, these kinds of facilities to make yourself look and smell good.

But definitely this is something that the lower classes are doing their best to try and imitate as well. Smell is a really interesting thing to study, I find, because I'm such a perfume girlie, and I love the idea like trying to study, because you've no idea what things smell. It's like the one thing that leaves no trace whatsoever. but if we were going to go back to the Tudor period, what do you think that the court would have smelled like? I've got to say, I don't think it would have been that great, actually,

because... It wouldn't have been great. No, I mean, if you think about it, in the court, you would have had rushes on the floor to try and mask some of the dirt that was being brought into court. But there were hundreds of people standing on these rushes. There were people urinating on these rushes. there were cats, dogs, animals.

So I always kind of think of that, you know, you ever smell that smell of fresh rushes if you go into like a stately home and they're on the floor? And I always think, oh, that's nice. So I think maybe that coupled with maybe a bit of stale wee, a bit of FEO, that's probably what I imagine a court smelling like. And I also think as well that there would have been like little pockets where it would have been very, very heavily perfumed.

because people were aware of bad smells and they didn't want to smell bad so they would themselves be kind of drenched in perfume but then again at the same time their clothes are still quite dirty by our standards and like the environment so it must have been this really weird mix of like awful smells and then really intense

like smells when they're trying to like to not stink yeah exactly like you say people are drenching themselves in perfume and they're also carrying around if you're rich anyway, they're carrying around these jeweled pomanders, which are basically like containers that they'd put herbs in, anything sweet smelling that they'd use to kind of waft away bad smells. Because it was, yeah, it was believed disease was carried through the air.

That was a way of protecting yourself as well. But also, yeah, you mentioned the clothes. And those clothes, particularly for the rich, they weren't things that you could just chuck in the washing machine at the end of the day. You couldn't wash them. There was no way of washing them. Like you'd have a linen, some kind of linen shift or shirt for a man

that would be used to soak up all of the sweat and then your clothes would be put on top of that. It's not really very pleasant particularly. But the linen shift would be the only thing that you'd be able to watch really. But if you could smell good somehow, that would have been quite important to these people, wouldn't it? To be, for us as a place to start for like Tudor Beauty,

not smelling like an open sewer, that's like page one. Yeah, definitely. We know Henry VIII in particular was really offended by bad smells. And in fact, that was one of the things that apparently put him off of Anne of Cleaves was the fact that she apparently smelled terrible. Yeah, so that was one thing that you had to make sure, particularly if you're coming into the presence of the king or queen, smelling good was definitely something that should be.

be really, really high on your agenda, because if you didn't, that was something that they were definitely going to take notice of. You mentioned there already, there's a couple of disparities between rich and poor. And I think that that's still very much the case with beauty standards to this very day. I think that we've got constants, things that are constantly found attractive, being healthy, being like your skin, being clear, all that stuff. But so much of it is actually displays of wealth that you can afford these. things you can afford to look nice. And I think in that case, it's that you can afford to smell good. Yeah. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. It is something that we still experience that we still see

today. So some things never change. Actually, back in Tudor times, in some respects, being poor, kind of did you a favour, particularly when it came to, yeah, I know, you wouldn't have thought this, but particularly when it came to oral hygiene, because the rich, of course, people weren't using toothbrushes at this time. So the rich were buying gold and silver toothpicks, which was actually damaging the enamel on their teeth. Whereas poor people couldn't afford those sorts of things, they were using wooden toothpicks, which did less damage.

So an unintended benefit, I suppose. And I guess they couldn't afford sugar. Yeah, exactly. They couldn't afford sugar either. Elizabeth I'm notorious for rotting her teeth because she ate too many sugary confections. And then to make it worse, not only was she, you know, using these golden silver toothpicks, but she was also using a kind of mouthwash that was made of honey. So. Oh, for fuck's sake. Yeah, exactly. And then later, one that was made of sugar. So she got it completely right. So yeah, the poor didn't know how lucky they were in that respect. What about something like skin tone? Because you read about that all the time in these accounts. When somebody is describing someone's appearance,

if they want to say they're good looking, skin is a really big. Teeth is a really big one as well. And you can sort of see how often people's teeth must have been missing by how much they focus on the fact that, oh, they've got really nice teeth. But skin as well, fair skin, white skin. clear skin, that's really important to them.

Yeah, yeah, it's massively important to them. White skin, the paler, the better. This is actually one of the reasons that Ambelin's enemies are later able to criticise her because they say that she doesn't really conform to the typical standards of beauty because she hasn't got this really pale skin. She's got a sort of olive, swarthy complexion.

So, yeah, basically, if you did not have that pale skin, particularly as the Tudor period progressed and we go into the reign of Elizabeth I, then you would fake it. Fake it till you make it and do everything that you could to obtain that pale skin. So that was something that was very fashionable throughout the entirety of the Tudor period. And how would they do this? If I came to you as a Tudor beauty aesthetician and said, I need to be paler. This is awful. I'm not nearly deathly white enough. How would we achieve this?

Well, if you had freckles, for example, we might start by putting a bit of lemon juice on your face just to get rid of those. And then we'd think about what we could do to apply some makeup, make your skin fairer. So we'd start by putting on Mondia equivalent of, I guess, a primer. which would be like an egg white base. So we've mixed up some egg whites, pop that on. Okay. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't sound too bad so far,

but the worst bit is to come because then we would apply the special makeup that was made from a mixture of vinegar and lead. So this is dangerous stuff, which does have the effect, at least to begin with, of making you appear very fair, very white, but of course it has hugely terrible health effects. And actually even in the Tudor period, some people were noting that it could make women's and men's actually,

but it could make their faces appear grey and really wrinkly. So in the attempt to kind of make your skis skin fair in a way to, you know, to seek beauty, you're actually causing more long-term damage that wouldn't have made you look particularly good. They must have killed so many people as well. If you want to handle lead today, you need like suits and masks and all kinds of safety protocols and they're just smearing it on their face on a daily basis. Yeah, exactly. And actually, lots of people were leaving it on there for weeks at a time

so it wouldn't be removed straight away and even when it was removed they were using pasts that were made of things like mercury and crushed up eggshells which were going to be causing more damage to the skin so it was a really toxic combination all round and it's just kind of sad to think of them just like in this vicious cycle then isn't it of like the lead even if it didn't kill them it's it

will damage your skin it will and it will age you prematurely quite rapidly and then they're putting more on top of it to try and mask that and then dear oh dear yeah it's horrendous and like you say it does lead to death people people do die because they're being poisoned by the lead that they're putting onto their skin and yeah it's not just women that are doing this men are doing this as well What about lips? You get lots of discussion around like rosy red lips, lips like roses and all this stuff. But then sometimes at different points in history, they become very anti-makeup. Which we know they're not really not wearing makeup, but it's the no-make-up makeup, which is actually, ironically, quite difficult to do.

But what about, like, a lips and then kind of a wider question around cosmetics? What was the Tudor attitude to cosmetics? Yeah, so earlier in the Tudor period, you don't really tend to see women wearing too much makeup. You might see them wearing a little bit of rouge on their lips, which was made of things like, well, the dye came from crushed up insects. Nice. And that was, again, that was another sign of wealth,

because those insects often came from places like Mexico, And that would be mixed with beeswax. But you see later on, definitely during the Elizabethan period, that's when the rouge lips, the rouge cheeks really become big. And, you know, we see Elizabeth, who was the real trendsetter, of course. And everyone wants to follow her example. So Elizabeth is wearing, you know, these red lips. All the ladies at the court want to emulate the queen.

So they're doing exactly the same. And there were kind of manuals about, cosmetics and their use that were widely red and were quite popular during the Tudor period that contained recipes for making lipstick, for making these face powders and these face creams and things. But generally speaking, that's something that becomes more and more popular as the Tudor period progresses. So earlier during the reign of Henry VIII, it's kind of less is more. perfumes are there

you see women plucking their eyebrows there are other kinds of things going on but cosmetics and the use of creams and makeup is something that really becomes popular under Elizabeth largely you see Elizabeth with those really arched eyebrows as well in the portraits of her

I wonder if she was plucking or drawing those on that's a good yeah I mean that's I who knows a bit of both maybe We see, I mean, we know women were doing a lot of plucking during this period. They weren't just plucking their eyebrows actually either. They were plucking their hair lines as well.

God, you're the tall forehead that they all leave. For some reason, they found insanely attractive a really high forehead. I mean, I don't think I'd have the patience actually to sit there and pluck hairs, individual hairs out of my hair line, to be perfectly honest. But, I mean, what else did they have to do? we do see a lot of that going on and if you couldn't be bothered to do that or if that didn't work then you'd use a wig instead um so yeah there's yeah wigs lots of those going on as well particularly when elizabeth ends up losing all of her hair um so why does lizzie end up losing her

hair because she's sticking lead all over her face that's why yeah yeah exactly and you know this kind of fashion and trend for having fair skin, it also extends to hair. The fashion is to have fair and pale hair. And I'm not saying that this is something that Elizabeth necessarily did, but certainly people in the Tudor period were doing this. If you didn't have fair hair, you could try and lighten it by applying lotions that were made of things like saffron as well to turn your hair yellow and orange. So there's that sort of thing going on. But yeah, Elizabeth, it's no wonder really. She was applying all sorts to her face. It's no wonder that her hair ended up being lost and we see her wearing these increasingly elaborate wigs that her ladies

are given charge of styling for her. I wonder if Henry wore wigs. When did wigs start to be? I don't recallsing any pictures of him wearing a wig. No, no, not as far as I am aware. No. We know, you know, Mary Queen of Scots was wearing them as well. So they're definitely a thing by the mid-Tudor period. Yeah. Was James I know he's not a Tudor? But was he wearing a wig? Yeah, that's a really good question. Yeah, I think I feel like it was Charles II.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Big wig with him. Henry. Was red hair must have been quite big with the Tudors then. If everyone's trying to pretend that they're royalty and like imitating everyone. to the extent of giving themselves skin cancer to do it. Was red hair quite trendy?

Yeah, definitely, definitely under Elizabeth because the queen is a redhead, like I say, everybody wants to look like the queen. And what better way to flatter somebody than to try and emulate them in every aspect of what they wear, how they appear, including their hair. So yeah, red hair becomes very popular as well. It's just occurred to me that all of this discussion around, you know, the hair's got to be blonde or red and the skin's got to be like deathly, deathly pale.

And we know now that the Tudor period was far more multicultural than we think it would have been. Or how on earth would somebody who wasn't white fit into a standard? I guess they just wouldn't. Yeah, I think that they would just, like you say, there were lots of different people in England at this time and also working. at court. And I, presumably, they didn't even attempt to try and conform to these standards of beauty or to fit in in any way. We don't know. But yeah, certainly Henry the 8th has, for example, a black musician, John Blank. There's also, there's another young man that we know about, Jacks Francis, who was a really experienced and talented diver, who was employed to salvage

bits from the wreckage of the Mary Rose. There's probably black servants that come to England in the train of Catherine O'Barrigan as well. So presumably they were just accepted for who and what they were. We don't really have a lot of information about it sadly. No, no, it's kind of lost to us, isn't it? But we know that they were there. I mean, I'm guessing humans being as horrible as we are. I guess that perhaps their quote unquote exoticism might have been erratacised. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is an age, I suppose something's never changed in some respects, but this is an age when if you looked the wrong way or you stood out for being different, that could be seized upon for positive or negative reasons. So the Tudor period is no different

in that respect. I read an argument somewhere that that Shakespearean sonnet about my mistress's eyes and nothing like the sun, that one, that that was possibly written to to a woman of colour, which I thought was very interesting because it talks about darksworthy complexions and sort of thick hair and dark coarse hair and things like that.

I thought that was quite interesting. And even if, even if Shakespeare didn't write it about a woman of colour, like look at that, it's very colour-coded, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's a really interesting one. Actually, I didn't know about that.

But yeah, I mean, because again, this is a time when even your eye colour, something that you've got no control over, that's part of a beauty standard as well, like blue and green eyes. Those are the ones that you want to have. And if you haven't, well, what can you do about it? Not much. I mean, these days, you can get all sorts of contact lenses and things to change your eye colour. You can change everything.

But there wasn't that option back then. So, yeah, there were very, very specific standards, very, very specific ideals about what beautiful was and what it looked like. And what about weight and body shape and body type? Because this is an interesting one, because this changes all the time. And I think that weight and body shape is very intimately linked with wealth and with money and what you can afford. Like today, the beauty standard is like, it's still very thin. even if you, like for a while we all wanted a massive house like the Kardashians, but even that's quite unobtainable, isn't it?

But like it's thin, it's taught, it's normally bronzed, all of which is showing that you've got leisure time to go and work out and look after yourself and go and go and get a tan on holiday and blah-da. And it's all about not being poor, basically, so much of it when you actually look at it. And you can see that all throughout history. So what would the Tudors have thought about our current body beautiful, where you are very, very low in body fat and very high in muscle mass.

Yeah, well, I mean, there's kind of a mix of things going on here. To begin with, again, sort of earlier in the period, curves were fashionable. Catherine of Aragon was, well, I mean, particularly as she got older and she experienced pregnancies and so on, she became curvier. That wouldn't necessarily have been frowned upon. That was something that was, you know, that was something that was accepted. That was something that was thought to be beautiful. But then you see later on in the period, Elizabeth I first is particularly slender.

It's really tiny, isn't she? Yeah, yeah, really, really small. I'm very, very proud of her slender hands in particular. So it is a trend that kind of changes. But again, we see, you know, Anne Boleyn, she has a similar figure to her daughter. She's very slim as well. a couple of Henry Gitts otherwise also thought to be smaller. Catherine Howard was thought to be perhaps a little bit plumber.

Oh, was she? I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, apparently so. But again, that wasn't necessarily frowned upon at all. And the other thing that wasn't frowned upon was having a low-cut gown. That was something that women were quite keen to do as well. So we see a lot of that. And we see that in portraits. You know, if you if you have a look at them, sometimes you can just get a little bit of a glimpse of a bit of cleavage.

So that's something that's going on in this period as well. Like if you've got it, flaunt it. So so far if you're a woman, a Tudor woman, you need to possibly be a little bit plumber. They seem to like that. Deathly pale with quite a tall forehead. Make up depending on which side of this era you are in. you need to smell good, light hair, red hair, probably wearing a wig, and pluck your eyebrows as well.

There we go. I'll be back with Nicola after this short break. What about the men? What were they doing? Yeah, so these beauty standards, I mean, men were wearing cosmetics, more so again during Elizabeth's reign. That's something that's going on. And they weren't quite conforming to the same sort of skin.

hair routines. They weren't putting crush tag shells on their faces quite as much. But they were using the tools available to them to try and make themselves look good. So they were dressing in the very finest of materials covering themselves with the very finest of jewels. Even, you know, down to their head accessories, their hats, making sure they have beautiful hats. We see Henry VIII wearing hats. And then again in Elizabeth's reign, we see that fashion for the pointed beard. That's something that really comes into play. And the codpiece, Henry VIII. Of course. What a ridiculous item of clothing that is. Quite funny though, isn't it? When you think about just how ridiculous he looks.

When I first heard about it, I thought it would be like, you know, like the cup that rugby players wear, like it's just sort of a little like molded area for it. But when When you actually see one, you're like, well, that's just a full-on erection. He's just walking around. You could hang something off that. This is ridiculous. I know. And like the bigger, I mean, yeah, it was a status thing.

So you wanted it the bigger, the better, really. And you see it on the armour as well, don't you? On his armour as well. And you think, really? Come on. Really, Henry. I'm very interested to know how the King's health changing over the years impacted beauty standards. Because if everybody is trying to emulate royalty and, you know, trying to look

like the king, that must have been quite difficult as he's getting older and he's getting sicker and sicker and his physical health is failing him because he wasn't a well man by the end of it. No, no, he wasn't a well man and despite his best efforts, there were, there was nothing that he could do to mask some of the smells that were coming from him, particularly around his ulcerated leg which was terribly infected, smell awful and left him sometimes wheelchair bound. So there were also special pulleys that were put in place in some of the palaces to heave him between rooms and floors. And yeah, I mean, Henry, what I will say is that we know from Henry's inventory that was

recorded after his death that there are so many. items of jewelry and there, so many items of magnificent clothing that I think that he really did do his best to try and ensure that he was still seen as this magnificent monarch when he was in public. But I think a lot of the glamour by the end of his reign came down to Catherine Parr. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, like I think she was the one who was really responsible for making sure that the court remained fashionable, that she was very much seen as blended and beautiful. And, you know, she even does her best to try and what I would interpret as being sexually enticing to Henry because we know that she has these special

little lozenges made for her to try and sweeten her breath that are made from licorice and things. See, there's a tip. Yeah, there you go. So, yeah, it's interesting. But I think she's the one who's very much bringing the glamour at the end of Henry's life to his court. Do we have any other records of some of the beauty treatments that his wives were using? Because you're sort of in this really weird situation

of like the king by the end of it is quite frankly repulsively unattractive. But his wives and mistresses have to try and remain attractive to him because he's not above saying that oh she smelt terrible and I don't want her anymore which is pretty big words coming from him but how are they trying to keep themselves attractive for Henry? Yeah I mean we don't know we know most about Catherine Park

because of the fact that we've got surviving accounts for her so we can say more about her and we know that she was using expensive perfumes rose water lavender we also know that she was taking regular milk baths in an attempt to keep her skin not only pale but also very, very soft. So...

Would that work? Would that be, as a beautician, would you recommend someone bathing milk? No. I'd imagine you come away feeling quite sticky and no. And sticky, wouldn't you? I mean, that would... Yeah.

She was a fan. She liked that. And I can only imagine that the other wives would have been following maybe, if not identical routines, similar routines. They were definitely all using their clothes as ways to make themselves be seen as magnificent. And they would have been all too aware of the fact that as queens, they were the ones who were the real trendsetters at court and that everyone was following their example. So I'm sure that they would have been acutely conscious of trying to make sure that they looked their best, that they smelled their best at all times. Do you know, you hear a lot about Henry VIII from him and his own ego and he wanted to be attractive and what his wives were doing and why they wanted to be attractive and maybe they were a bit vain. And we definitely hear a lot about Elizabeth being vain and the pale skin and the big wig and all the rest of it.

Do you know what we never hear about Mary? Yeah. Mary, she did her? Like what was she, she's got this idea of like, you know, there was the glamour of Henry the 8th court, and then there was this frumpy bit in the middle, and then there was Elizabeth. And he's like, but Mary must have been doing something. Yeah, you know, it's so true. It's really sad, actually, because she does get, like you say, she does get massively looked. And I think partly, I mean, we don't know anything about her beauty regime. So it's difficult to say in that respect. But we do know that she was really, really fond of finery.

She did love clothes. But then she even got criticised for that as well. There were, you know, people, people can be very cruel, as we know, people commenting on the fact that she was too old and too frumpy and didn't wear these clothes and these jewels well in the same way that Elizabeth did. So, yeah, she was, it's a real, it's really sad actually because, yeah, she did, She did like all of these things as well. And it's just the fact that, unfortunately for her,

she is in that kind of middle bit, like you said, where there's Henry on one side, larger than life, and then Elizabeth on the other with her wigs. By the time Elizabeth dies, she's got 2,000 dresses in her wardrobe. Wow. Not many people. I know. So not many people can compete with that, probably including Mary.

It might be as well to do the fact that we still do it today. shouldn't do it and we should check ourselves and stop doing it. But definitely at this point in history, there is an association between moral beauty and physical beauty and that if you are a good person, you will look good. And Mary, like, I feel very sorry for her like being called a frump and everything, but she did kill a lot of people. She did do that. Like she's got this reputation as being this sort of historical frump because of that. Yeah. Yeah. I think there is, I think there is a lot of that in it, you know. And I think it's also the fact that Mary, when she becomes queen, she decides on a husband quite quickly. She marries quite quickly and then she's kind of

wiped off and all of her, you know, all of her wifely duties are centred on Philip, whereas Elizabeth kind of plays the field a bit more. So people talk about her more in terms of, you know, her beauty in terms of her as a potential. like the woman that everyone wants to marry, she's the queen that everyone wants to grab. There isn't really that with Mary at all. And Elizabeth is younger when she becomes queen. Mary is 37 by the time that she becomes queen. I mean, that's considered to be practically an ancient monument.

So there are really interesting things there about age and marital status as well that I think may be come into play with that. Mary's just not seen as being as glamorous as Elizabeth. It's not one word you ever hear associated with it. No, you don't, do you? No, you don't. And Elizabeth is the one that gets all the attention for sure. I'll be back with Nicola after this short break.

We've talked a bit about beauty and what a Tudor Hotty would have been. I suppose the flip side of that is then, well, what did they consider unattractive? Like if they In the records If somebody is gonna Like they really trying to Like go after somebody And pan what they look like

What do they say Like today Fat is normally thrown about We have a real hang up around it And if you want to like You know Impune someone you may Oh you fat cow

It's horrible We shouldn't do it's fat shame It's nasty But we still do it What were the Tudors doing What would have been Really ugly for them You mentioned freckles

Earlier for example And they're quite cute Yeah Yeah I know I love a freckles. I love a freckles were very much frowned upon. In fact, any kind of mark, any kind of blenish, any kind of mole. Oh, a mole.

And yes, moles. And, you know, moles later on in the Tudor period, they become associated with witchcraft. Oh, God, yes. So, yeah, people are terrified at the idea of having any kind of mole because it could potentially, you know, if you ever got on the wrong side of somebody and ended up being accused of witchcraft, that could be used as evidence that you were a witch, whether you're male or female. So nobody wants to have a mole in any way, shape or form. Okay, moles are out.

Moles are out. There was also this story that emerged. It's almost certainly not true, but the idea that Amberlin had this sick finger. Oh, I've heard that. Is that not true? No, not true. or no evidence that that's true but something that's put about by people

but were hostile too has. But in either scenario, it shows that we don't want six fingers. That's definitely a big no-no as well. There are those things at play. It is considered important, actually, that you had good teeth. I would love that.

Admittedly, it's very, very difficult to, particularly if you're rich, it is difficult to ensure that it kind of stays that way or that you do have good teeth, that's something that's not easy. What else is there? I was going to say aging. That seems to be a fairly constant one throughout history. And we still do it today.

We're still a very ageist society when people say that you look like good, or they look good for your age or like all the beauty treatments are about not aging. And that seems fairly constant throughout our history and around the world. I've yet to find a culture where getting older is considered moratorium. Yeah. Yeah, that's so true, actually. That's completely true. And, you know, as I said, by the time Mary the first becomes queen, she's 37, lots of people are thinking, God, she's old, there's no way she's going to have children. And they think it's actually the same. You know, Catherine Parr, she gets pregnant with her first child at 36. I think, wow, that's really, really old. So yeah, there's obviously that as well. The other thing, I forgot to mention, I should have said this when we're talking about complexion, but is scarring. And that was another reason why people wore this makeup is because this is an age that disease is rife, particularly smallpox that Elizabeth I first herself nearly dies from.

So any kind of blemish on your face, your body from disease, that's very much frowned upon that doesn't want to be seen in any way, shape or form. So I often think about people in, well, at most points in our history, definitely at this point of all the things now that we can get quote-unquote fixed. I don't mean necessarily like plastic surgery, but something like acne. Like we have good treatments now for acne. But back in the day, you just have to have sat there with that. There was no help for you at all.

No, absolutely nothing. You might be able to try one of these lotions and potions. You might be able to try putting a bit of olive oil on it or a bit of chamomile or something. But yeah, there was no guaranteed or perhaps we should say, perhaps no real safe way of ensuring that those sorts of treatments worked. You just, you did. You just had to put up with it. You had to live with it and accept it.

So as a final question then, and I didn't know that you were a beautician for a while there, have you ever found a Tudor beauty tip treatment, anything that you would actually consider doing to this day? Or are they all just wall-to-wall insanity? Yeah, unfortunately, and I've looked into this. They're all bonkers. There is nothing. Yeah, there is nothing that I would put on my face. I've looked at these recipes before,

and there's at least, in every chuda recipe you find, there's at least one dangerous or really, really wacky ingredient that you think, hang on a minute, no way. So no, I have to say, in that respect, I'm very glad that we're living in the 21st century. I don't know what they were thinking, but thank God times have changed. Nicola, you have been beautiful to talk to. Thank you so much. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? Oh, thank you, Kate. It's been so nice to be back chatting to you.

Yes, so if people can follow my Instagram account that I am at historian, Nicola, and that's mainly where you'll find me these days. Amazing. Thank you so much for dropping by. You've been a treat. As always. Thank you for having me. Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Nicola for swinging by. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like with you and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, perhaps swap some beauty tips,

then you can email us at betwixt at history hit.com. Coming up, we have got an episode on the contraceptive pill and the final episode in this mini-series on historic beauty standards, all about the Victorians who were frankly mental. This podcast was edited by Tim Arstall and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again betwixt the sheet's the history of sex scandal in society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.