Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Who Were The Vestal Virgins?

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

What happened if a Vestal Virgin broke their pledge of virginity? How would a woman be chosen for the role? And were there any benefits to taking it?Kate is finding out in this episode with Peta Greenfield, co-author of ‘Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire’ and co-host of ‘The Partial Historians’, with her colleague Dr Fiona Radford.This episode was edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Sophie Gee. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.Please vote for us for Listeners' Choice at the British Podcast Awards! Follow this link, and don’t forget to confirm the email. Thank you!Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister, you are listening to Betwicks the Sheets, and I'm so glad that you are. Welcome back, dear friends. But before we can go any further together, I have to tell you once again,

as I will be telling you from now until the end of time. This is an adult podcast spoken by adults, to other adults, about adultery things in an adulty way covering a range of adults and subjects, and you should be an adult too. And we call that the fair do's warning, because if you listen to that, and then you keep listening and you get upset, that one's on you, because fair do's you were warned.

Right, on with the show. Amongst the spectacular architecture of the Roman Forum, a small circular building sticks out. Just 15 metres in diameter, the curved walls and the Corinthian columns encircle and enclose a sacred space. The inside of the temple remains out of sight to the hordes of Roman citizens and senators

bustling through the streets under the hot Mediterranean sun. Smoke rises, silently from a hole in the temple's roof, like steam from a kettle. This and the faint smell of wood smoke that grows stronger the closer you draw are the only signs of a fire within. Out of sight, robed priestesses are at work, devoted to their task of tending the eternal flame. These are some of the most powerful women in the Roman world,

because the story goes that if that flame goes out, Rome will fall. There's only one catch. What do you look for a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect confidence of whatever my boss needs by just turning it up and pushing the funny. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, my beautiful time.

Goodness has nothing to do with it, Derry. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society. With me, Kate Lister. It goes out saying that for an awful lot of history, being a woman, was crap. I can't sugarcoat that for you. and ancient Rome was no different. In fact, they seemed to excel at it. If you were a woman then,

it meant that you were under the legal control of a male family member, you couldn't own your own property, and you were unable to attend political assemblies. But what if I told you there was a way that you could own your own property? You could have your very own security garden, you could vote, and, betwixtors,

you could get premier seats at the Coliseum. What would you say then? Would you say, yes, Kate, that sounds good, sign me up? well, be very careful because there's a catch. There's always a catch. You have to remain a virgin. This is the job of the Vestal Virgin. And if at any point that virginity was compromised

or if the flame goes out, there's only one person that they're blaming. Would you do it? Well, today I'm joined by Peter Greenfield to enter the world of the Vestal Virgin. What was their day-to-day role and what happened to them if they broke their pledge of virginity

or if the Romans just thought that they had, quite frankly, I'm not sure it's quite the role for me, but let's go and find out more. Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Peter Greenfield. How are you doing? I am excellent. Thank you so much for having me.

I'm thrilled to have you here. For anybody who doesn't know you and they should, you are the co-host of the podcast, The Partial Historians, where you look at ancient Rome a lot. So I suppose my first question has got to be a bit about your origin story. Why ancient Rome? Why?

Where did the love of it come from? And then I'm going to steer you gently into, why do men think about Rome once every day? Do you think about Rome once every day as well? And that whole conversation. Of course, of course. So I didn't end up in Rome because I chose it, I don't think, at least not initially. I was pretty sure I loved ancient Egypt.

Nice. And then I was pretty sure I loved ancient Greece. Yeah, the gateways. And then I was pretty sure I was going to study the Inca's. And then I turned up to a history lecture with Professor Tom Hillard at Macquarie University. And he started the lecture by coming in with a statue head in a wheelbarrow. And that was the moment I was like, I think Roman history might be the place for me. Oh, I love that. Way more exciting than anywhere else I've been. I love that. So do you actually think about ancient Rome at least once every day? At least, if not more. Today, for instance, I've thought about it a lot, knowing that we were going to be

having a chat. But yeah, I can't help it. I do love history and eventually you specialize in something. So ancient Rome is what I've ended up specializing in. But I would say that on any given day, I would think about the Romans quite frequently, but also lots of historical figures and lots of periods of history. I'm kind of interested in all of it. So here I am. And thank God you are here. So we talk about the Vestal Virgins. That's who we're here to talk about primarily today. They are a sort of a group of virgins that sort of entered the public consciousness. And you might hear people referring to them sort of casually, oh, not a Vestal Virgin. but I'm not sure many people actually know what the hell they are. So should we start up with a real basic page one question? What is a Vestal Virgin, Peter?

All right. So to understand a Vestal Virgin, we first need to understand the goddess Vesta. Vesta is one of the most ancient goddesses associated with Rome, and she's primarily concerned with the element of fire. So we think that the origin of Vesta comes from the heart. hearth fire that would be in every household. And that this blooms into a public cult where they have a very particular hearth associated with Vesta herself. And that gets located very close to the centre of Rome. And the Vestal virgins are the women who tend to that public hath fire to make sure

that Vesta is looked after and by extension all of Rome and all of the fires contained within it. Okay. So there was always a fire burning in Rome. Always. Sometimes out of control. That temple burnt down a number of times. Do we know where this was, where this temple was? Does it survive? We certainly do. So Rome is most famous for the forum, that big central area that's a public gathering space. And there is a particular road that leads right into the forum called the Via Sacra. And it is at the intersection of the entrance to the forum and the end of the Via Sacra. that we have the building that contains Vesta. It's called the Adais Vestay. It's not strictly a temple in the Roman way of thinking about it, but it is a very sacred spot, and it's a circular building,

which is also highly unusual for Roman architecture. So Vesta is a goddess of the hearth. What's her story then? I mean, they've got so many gods and goddesses, but why did this one particularly take off? I mean, I can see fire is important, But why her? What was her story?

And this is where things get really interesting because we're not entirely sure. So some Roman scholars in the ancient world posited that Vesta is a correlation with the Greek goddess, Hestia, who also has an association with the hearth fire. And if you say Hestia really quickly and you say Vesta really quickly, you can see how they might may have come from the same origin. Hestia Vesta, Hestia Vesta. But we're not really entirely sure. It could be the case that when we're talking about central Italy, that Vesta is not just particular to the Romans, but she is a goddess of all of the Latin people,

because we do have stories of Vesta being worshipped prior to the foundation of Rome itself. Wow. So there's these interesting connotations, but definitely the sacred nature of fire, the significance that fire has in the everyday, lives of people. Obviously, this promotes Vesta as a really important and unique goddess. But we rarely see any statuary of her, which is very unusual. And she's considered one of the 12 major gods, but she's often left out of that list as well in place of others. And that's partly to do

with the fact that we don't have a lot of physical evidence for her. She's contained solely in the flame. So she's not meant to be represented in a statue. or other iconography, which is really fascinating. So super central to Rome and its story, but also she's invisible in many ways when we think about physical evidence. Wow. Oh, she'd be livid about that, wouldn't she? Potentially, yes. She might start some fires of her own. So was she worshipped in other cities, or is this very much a Roman thing? Were there other vesta hearths to be tended to in other cities? We think there were, but we also don't have a lot of evidence to confirm that. So the big origin story for Vesta in terms of the Latin

region is the story of a woman called Rea Silvia, and sometimes she's also known by another name Ilya. And she is a virgin, the daughter of a king of a town that is nearby called Alba Longa, which is a precursor to Rome in many respects. And she is placed into the Vestal Virgin priesthood of our Belonger by her uncle, forcibly placed there. She's then raped by either Mars or her uncle. Yeah, now we get into it. And she gives birth to Romulus and Remus, famously, the fracturedsidal brothers that, yeah,

they found Rome. And so we have a story of the origin of Rome coming from the unusual birth of a Vestal Virgin. Wow, that's absolutely fascinating. So where does the virginity thing come from then? Is it from this virgin girl that was sort of forced into her service or are the different origins of this? I can understand fire. Fire is very important. And then somebody's has gone and virgins.

And virgins. What? It's like an odd job share. Together at last. You know, those two things are completely inseparable. So part of what we think might be going on, because the Romans weren't too sure about this either, so they had a few different stories for it. One was that Vesta herself was a virgin.

So by virtue of being a virginal goddess, she required her priestesses to also match her in that facet of her being. The other potential is that the ritual duties of, of the Vestals never end. So they always have to be watching the fire. They can't let it go out because it is the embodiment of Vesta. And because as time goes on, the Romans imbue that fire with the health of their own city, the safety of themselves and the continuation of Rome, anything that could compromise that fire

is a problem. So the Vestals are on the job every day, all day, year after year. And this means that they can never be outside a situation of ritual purity. They must always be ready to serve the goddess. And for other priests, they go through processes of having to abstain because they're in the lead up to a special ritual occasion. But the vessels are always in a ritual process. So this might be part of it as well for them. So the idea they've always got to be on the job.

So obviously they can't be having any other distrust. because men are just too tempting. Like, they're just, like, how could be possible? Men are way too tempting. Oh, they're just too delicious and lovely. We can't help ourselves. So the only way they can deal with that is by saying you have to be a virgin all of the time. All of the time.

Absolutely. What did they do? So they hung around the temple. Were they just being virgins in the temple? Like, what is this finish every day? I'm still a virgin. Excellent work, everybody. We will retire for the night.

High fives. Nice job, everyone. So I've tried to think about this because I'm like, what would the day-to-day life be? And I feel like there's got to be a schedule. You can't be the only one watching the fire for 24 hours a day. That would be exhausting. So it would make sense to have shifts. Somebody, one person at least, always has to be inside the temple looking after the flame, for sure, if not more.

Otherwise, they'll be living next door in the house of the Vestals, the atrium. Not a circular building, sadly, but right next door, very close. So there will be other things that they need to do as Vestals. It's not just watching the flame. They've also got to cleanse the temple every day. So they've got to go out and fetch water. And then if there is a public ritual happening of any kind, they're likely to be present, if not involved.

Like royalty. Wow, they're very special. One of the things that they do that affects just about every public ritual that takes place, whether they're directly involved or not, is that they are in charge of creating a purification, kind of flower, ultimately it ends up being. It's called mollus salsa, and it's a combination of ground-ups belt, which they've dried out near Vesta's flame, combined with some salt. And so they create this powder essentially that is for ritual purification, which gets tossed over all animal sacrifices before the moment that they're sacrificed.

So even if the vestals aren't present, they will have contributed to the ritual outcome of every public sacrifice that happens in the city. They're busy ladies. Just girl bossing it. The more I learn about the Romans, the more I realize there's bad stuff going on. And even if you think it's a good situation, there's something nasty that is coming your way. This cannot have been a gig where you just hung around a temple with some light baking duties, some cleaning duties and some fire tending and just make sure that you're still a virgin. I bet there's a downside to this.

Yeah, there's plenty of downsides to this. They do tend to tell the benefits of being a festival, but there are some problems. first of all, you get removed from your family at an extraordinarily young age. So to become a vestal, you have to be chosen between the ages of six and ten. So this is to make sure that you definitely are a virgin. In the Roman way of thinking about things, which is unpleasant, you could be contracted to marry as a young woman as early as 12. So choosing young girls below that age is very important because you can hopefully, fingers

cross, be sure that they're a virgin. Over the age of six, usually in the ancient world children are thought to have gotten through the worst of childhood. It's very risky between ages zero and five. So if they've lived to six, that's pretty good. But yes, as young as six, you could be taken from your family and placed in the cult. Wow. that it'd be a shock to the system, I dare say.

God, that really would be, wouldn't it? You're just a six-year-old kid. I think of them as being like nuns in their nunnery, kind of, and nobody really knows what's going on inside this place, but like the age of six. Yes. Wow. It's not like being a nun in the sense that it's not a calling or a vocation.

This is not something that they've chosen. It's been chosen for them before they've gone through puberty, before they know what they might be interested in, or anything like that. And the vow of chastity has to last a minimum of 30 years. Wow. All right. So what are the qualifications? Because no six-year-old is saying, I want to do this. Like, were they sold into it? Were they given to the temple? Was this considered an honor? Like, what is the criteria that you'd have to go through? It's very particular. It relates primarily initially to being from one of the elite families.

So the Romans have a broad division between their people, between patricians and plebeians. How that worked out in the wash really depends on what time period of Roman history you're in. But the most elite families tend to be the ones that will go into priesthoods. That's part of the mechanism for controlling the state. At that point, it's very important for any vestal candidate that both their parents still be alive. Okay. We're not sure why that is necessarily, but maybe that's a demonstration of their fitness. to live through the process.

Yes. They also need to be inspected to make sure that there is no blemish to their body, that they do not have a speech impediment and no problems with their hearing. Right. Okay. These things are really important, partly because rituals involve speaking. And if you can't speak well, your words will not be transmitted to the gods appropriately, and then the relationship will break down.

That's a big problem. if you can't hear properly, likewise. But yes, the no blemish on the body is a pretty common requirement for most priesthoods in the sense that it's a determination of your ritual purity as well. I'll be back with Peter after this short break. Was it considered like an honourable thing to do? I mean, I'm trying to understand, because if it was poor kids that were being offered up to this, you can kind of understand that there might be like very poor parents going,

Oh, no, we definitely think she should be a Vestal Virgin. Off you go. Off you go. You can look after her now. But which families offering up their kids for this? Was it considered a good and honorable thing to be? Definitely. This doesn't mean it was necessarily popular, though. So one of our sources talks about how, ideally, there will be 20 candidates put forward from elite families in the case that a new Vestal needs to be selected and that they would be chosen by lot. all of those 20 names would go into a little pot and whoever got pulled out would be the next festival. Wow.

Usually it doesn't seem to have happened that way. And particularly as we get further into the historical record of the late Republic and the early principate under Augustus, we do have a wave of elite families not wanting to send their daughters. And Augustus getting a bit mad about that, being like, it's a very honorable thing. And if my daughter was eligible, I'd put her in. People are like, nah, it's not incentive enough, really. Our daughters are more valuable to us as marriage commodities than as

priestesses being separated from their legal family. So that becomes an increasing issue. But there are certain advantages for the individual vestal. She's legally separated from her family, but that doesn't mean she's no longer connected with them. She also has the capacity to now own property on her own. which is not usually true for women. She's also allowed to conduct business without requiring a legal guardian to oversee the process.

So she can become a bit of an independent operator. Okay. And she is allowed to make her own will, which is usually not true for women as well. So that's nice. Yes. And she is allowed to provide testimony in court. So she has the legal right to speak in court. And that's usually not something granted to women,

either for a very long time. So there are certain advantages that come with being a vestal. One that is often talked about is the seats in the theatre, where they get to sit much closer to the action in the gladiatorial combats and things like that than other ladies. Most ladies are stuck right up the back with a pretty poor view, but the vestals get to be down the front. That's such a shit trade-off.

Do you want to go and live in this house? No sex for 30 years. Awesome theatre seats. But you can watch the gladiators up close. And such a crap trade-off. But it must have been important for them if they're mentioning this, that this was a good incentive for them. Well, whether it is an incentive or not, I'm not sure that, like, obviously they're chosen

so young, I'm not sure that they're aware of what advantages they might be gaining. But definitely, they're singled out in the public space in particular ways. So it's really obvious when a vestal is around. They're dressed differently from every other. woman. They're really clearly visually delianated by their hairstyle, the clothes that they wear. And they also ultimately get offered one of the bodyguards, these people called Lictors, that go around with clubs and beat people up and move them out of the way, to look after them in the public space as well. It's starting to sound not too bad. Have your own personal

bodyguard? Yeah. Like these are big things for the Romans to be. be doing. Again, because the more I learn about, the more I realize it was not a great time to be a woman, but they allow them to have a voice in the Senate. They could own their own property. I suppose they had a kind of income. They could speak up in legal cases. And they have excellent seats at the gladiators. These are quite big deals for the Romans. It's huge. And particularly also the idea of having a bodyguard. This was something that seems to be a late innovation for the Vestals. One night, a Vestal was coming home from a dinner party, and she was insulted on her way home. And this caused an outrage and was apparently the thing that led to them being assigned their own Lictor each, just in case. Wow. I'm seeing an issue potentially here. They're supposed to be Vestal virgins. They're not having sex at all, and they have a hunky bodyguard with them at all times called a Lictus.

Is that right? Well, yeah. Did this cause any problems? That old chestnut. We don't have any records of vestals losing their virginity to their bodyguards. But certainly most of the evidence that we have for vestals relates to things having gone wrong in the virginity department for sure. You had one job, ladies, one job. I suppose an important question to ask here is,

what would be their definition of losing virginity? Because even today, there's a lot of small print. Fingering doesn't count or giving head doesn't count. It's actual, you have to put a penis in a vagina. Like what was their definition of losing your virginity? Like most things with the Romans, it was weird. They made a determination via visual inspection. I would say that that's probably not a good basis for making a decision about something like that.

No. And we know that virginity is a social construct. It's not a biological reality anyway. So problematic on all levels. But usually a determination would be made either through a process of trial where arguments would be put forward about yes, she did lose her virginity or no, she didn't lose her virginity. And if required, a visual inspection would be made. Okay.

So it's penetration. That's what they're looking for then. Yeah. Right. Okay. So who got caught out there? Actually, you just raised a really interesting point because you can't tell if someone's a virgin just by looking at their genitals. It's an absolute nonsense. So that is a very faulty test. So if someone said a vestal virgin has lost their virginity and the test is just someone looking between their legs and going, yep, nope, the error margin is quite substantial for that. It is. I would say that's pretty unreliable. The other way that the Romans went about this was that, what What we see in the stories early on in particular, and less so as we get into the imperial period, is that stories about Vestals losing their virginity are accompanied by stories of prodigies from the gods. So signs being offered to suggest that the Romans' relationship with the gods was out of sync in some way and that some sort of investigation needed to be made in order to determine the cause.

and sometimes that cause was thought to be a vestal having lost her virginity. So that opens up the door for then the trial and all of the things that could follow from that. So something goes wrong in ancient Rome. Just something. Their solution is one of the vestal... Oh, no. Oh, this isn't good. This is bad times.

Bad times to be a vestal virgin. So we're talking like natural floods, fires, like anything bad crop and then the citizens would go the vestal must have been getting some yes so Rome has various layers for dealing with this and there'll be augurs the people who look at the signs

of the birds there'll be soothsayers who like to open up small animals and look at their end trails and those are kind of people who tend to make the determination that it's probably related to the vestals brilliant so for instance we have a terrible case, a case in point, let me give you an example, in 114 and 113 BC, we have a situation

where three vestals end up on trial for the crime of incestum. The crime of incestum relates to anything from, oops, I did something a little bit naughty all the way up to, I've lost my virginity. it's a real problem. And the reason why they come up for this trial in the first place is because of a prodigy that is so severe that the soothsayers are convinced that the vessels have to be involved somehow. And what has happened is that there's been a thunderstorm. A young woman is riding her horse across a field in a thunderstorm, and she's struck by lightning.

Terrible, and she dies. The force of the lightning strike is such that her shoes, Her headdress, her jewelry, are all scattered through the field. She has ended up in a situation where she's been killed, and the manner in which her body is found, her tongue is protruding from her mouth, and her tunic has been drawn up revealing her genitalia. And this appearance of the dead body is so shocking. And particularly the genitalia being revealed,

It's so problematic for the Romans. They can't handle this at all. They have an aversion to the female genitalia most of the time. So to see it in this situation is particularly egregious for them. And they're immediately like, we have to look at what is happening with the Vestalverting cult. So they ask the Roman people, do you have any information? Does anybody want to come forward and tell us anything?

A slave comes forward and says, yes, pretty sure. sure that at least three of them are involved. They've all been compromised for a while. And the reason why I know is that they've been having sex with my master. Snitch. And that just opens the floodgates. That is a mad. So some poor lass gets fried in a field. Terrible. The Romans can't cope with the fact, not so much that she's dead, but that her genitals are on show. And now some slaves come forward. This is just, wow. Okay, continue the story, please. I'm just trying to get my head round it. It's so mad. It's a challenging time. Being a Vestal means that you have to be ready for these sorts of unusual scenarios. And then what do you do?

Then you have to defend yourself. And initially, the trial takes place with the Pontifax Maximus, the chief priest of Rome. He's normally the guy that's in charge. and oversees the Vestal order. So it makes sense that if something goes on, they have to appear before him. So they appear before him and he puts together the trial with the other lesser pontifices. So that whole group of priests is there. And they go through the process. The Vestals get up and say their peace. And he decides that one of them, Amelia, is guilty of encestum. But the other two, Likina and Marsha, they're acquitted. They've been accused. They've been accused. but he doesn't find them guilty of enquestion.

This would be fine. This would probably be the end of it usually, but the Roman public gets really worked up about that whole prodigy, and it seems like there might be some other political things going on in the background because one of the tribune of the plebs comes forward and starts to rile up the people and says, this is not good enough, this has been a miscarriage of justice, the other two are guilty, and the Pontifex Maximus is letting them off. and it's going to be a problem.

And so the idea of the peace of the gods is hanging in the balance, people are getting worked up, and they decide that they need to have a second trial, not led by the Pontifex Maximus this time, but led by another senior senator outside of that structure. So it's a highly unusual affair to have a second trial, it also not to be contained within the priesthood. And the second trial obviously finds the other two guilty as well,

so then all three of them are found guilty of enquestum, which means that the next step is the inevitable live burial. The inevitable what, sorry? The inevitable live burial. This just keeps getting mad at. Why are they being buried alive? Well, the Romans don't want to have the blood of a Vestal Virgin on their hands. They also want to trust that the gods are going to make the best decision. So on the off chance that the Romans have been incorrect in the outcome of the trial, if they bury the Vestals alive, that means the gods get to decide whether the Vestals live or die.

That is some mental gymnastics. It becomes an issue for the gods. Right. Okay. It's pretty horrifying. When you say buried alive, what do you mean? Do you mean like a hole is dug in the ground and then they're chucked in it and soils thrown back on top of them? Like, what are we talking about here?

It's a bit more sophisticated than that, actually. So what we have is a sequence of events that are followed pretty precisely, but are also horrifying as we go along. Okay. So if a vestal is found guilty of encastom, they are immediately stripped of the visual insignia of their position. So this means that their headdress is removed. Normally, they're no longer a vestal. they're then packed into a cart and they're taken through the city as if it is a funeral procession.

People start to line the streets to watch. That's the kind of thing that happens. They always get taken to the same spot. So there is a place called the Collin Gate, which if you went to Rome today, it's near Termini Station. They get taken to this area and there is an underground chamber that they use for this process. So it's basically an underground room where the vestal is either lowered down on a wooden or rope ladder. And once she's down there, they lift that out. They close the door and then they cover it up with dirt.

In that chamber, there are a few things. There's a bed. There's some water. There's some milk. There's some bread. There's a lamp. There's a little bit of oil. So they're given all of the things that would allow them to survive, the things that are considered the necessities of life.

and then they leave it up to the gods. Now, my suspicion is, and I can't confirm this, because we haven't been able to do the archaeology under the ground, but I suspect there might have only been one chamber so that over time not only are you being buried alive in a chamber where you're being left for dead, but ultimately there'd be other vestal skeletons down there as well, I suspect. Oh my God.

That's just my speculation. We don't know for sure. That would be pretty gross, though. I wouldn't put it past the Romans. No, no, neither would I? Like, how often did this happen then that a vestal was put to death? Every sort of few generations. All right, okay.

So it's not like a weekly thing. No, no, thank goodness. And the example that I just described with this triple case of incestum, it's pretty unusual for three to be buried alive at the same time. That's half the Vestal order gone, just like that. So then they're going to need three repellation. So that's pretty devastating. But we do get one like sort of every 100 to 200 years. Wow. And was it just sex that they could be tried for? Were there other behaviours that they

could be put on trial for? They definitely could be put on trial for lesser crimes that also relate to being unchaste in the Roman view because this covered everything from losing your virginity to having a good sense of humour. Oh, no, right. Don't be funny. Nobody's asking you to be funny. So, definitely one vestal was hauled onto trial for having too good a sense of humour, and she was told to behave with more sanctity.

A couple of them get charged within Kestim, but then are later acquitted because they dress fashionably. Even within the confines of what a vestal can wear, they're sort of doing something that's a little bit hip and groove. and people aren't into that. No, that's not what we want from our vestals. Exactly. Anything that could be construed as slightly immodest,

behavior is the sort of thing that could get a vestal into trouble. And if she wasn't found guilty of encestum, she still could be punished. And usually what this would involve is that the Pornifex Maximus would stand on one side of a sheet. The Vestual Virgin would stand on the other side of a sheet. and then he'd whip her with the sheet interposed between the two of them. I'll be back with Peter after this short break.

If you managed to make your way through this, that you were recruited at the age of six, you have spent 30 years making flower and looking after a flame and not being funny or dressing too fashionably, and you've managed to survive the whole thing, was there a cutoff date where they were like, well, you're done now? Off you go. We no longer need you to be. Like, how did you retire from this? And what was your life post-vestling? These are the things that we kind of wish we knew. So the evidence suggests that the 30 years is the 30 years. So as long as you have done that, you're allowed to leave. What we don't

have is any good evidence to suggest that any vestal did leave after the 30 years. And if they did what they did with their life after that. So we can speculate a little bit. So your minimum age for leaving would be 36. Let's say you got picked up as a six-year-old, became a vestal, did your 30 years, you're out before you're 40. Great news. You could still get married if you wanted to.

Yeah. You could still maybe return to your birth family if you wanted to. But we don't have any evidence to suggest that those things happened. You did have an independent property portfolio. So maybe you would be a catch for some elite man who's a little bit down on his luck. Why would you want to, though? If you see this happening quite a lot throughout history, is that when women are in a position, when they've got property and money and they can look after themselves,

they seem to quite a lot go, nah, you're all right, actually, lads. No, I'm not really interested in getting married. Maybe that's what they did. I think you might be on the money there, because all the evidence that we have suggests that once women got through that, whole process, they stayed and they lived out the rest of their life as a vestal. They don't retire. They just stay in the order. We've got an example of a lady who is serving in the late republic. So she's at least a vestal version by 38 BCE. So at that point, Mark Antony and Octavian

are still mad at each other and they're both still running around trying to have fights. and she lives all the way into the rule of Tiberius. Wow. And she has served for at least 57 years, if not longer. Wow. So we have these sort of incredible stories of longevity as well of vessels who just keep going. So there's a final question to this then. Why was it punished so harshly if the virgins lost their virginity or if the flame went out?

or like what was it believed that would be the impact on Rome if they didn't keep their sacred duties? The problem for the Romans and ultimately for the Vestals within this is that the flame was seen as a crucial symbol of the continuity of Rome. Right. So without that flame, Rome itself was at risk. And that was a risk not just on a physical level, but in that spiritual sense,

that is the state capable of still having the support of the gods? And if it's not capable of having that divine support, is it even possible for the state to continue? And I think a lot of people tend to think that the Romans are mostly this military outfit of gung-ho masculinity. But at their core, they're incredibly religious people. And everything is determined by the way that they see their relationship with the God's functioning or not functioning. And the Vestal Virgins become a real window into how that

operates at a really fine granular level, because day to day, they have to be looking after that flame. If that flame accidentally goes out on somebody's watch, that's a cause for suspicion. If something happens outside of the city that appears to involve female genitalia, immediately the Vestals are suspected. There are also other objects that are held inside the temple that are considered to be sacred to the safety of the city as well. So it's not just about the flame. There is also an object called the Palladium, which is a small statue of palace Athena, which was thought to have been brought to Rome by Aeneas after the Battle of Troy. Oh, wow. Okay. Going back a long way. The Romans do like to believe that they are the

inheritors of that Greek world. And Aeneas's bringing of the Palladium all the way from Troy to Rome is seen as a signifier of Rome carrying that torch and having the right to rule in Italy, if not elsewhere. So that's in there. There is also a group of objects that we're not really sure what they are, but they're referred to as the symbols of Imperium, the symbols of power. And they're also held in this temple. So whenever somebody is watching the flame, those objects are also being guarded. And whenever the flame goes out, the veracity of what those objects are capable of is also called into question. And this idea of the safety of the state being bound up in the Vestal's bodies and the flame at the same time, it's also intertwined for the Romans that they can't seem to

separate it out. And it's not until we get really far into the imperial period where, Rome basically has to change its whole religious outlook to become Christian, that this idea of the Vestal starts to dissipate in terms of its potency. It's like that if I don't turn the lights switch on and off 50 times, my family will die, but on a national scale, isn't it? It's like we can't let this fire go out in case the world is going to end. Everything is interconnected for them as well. So the Vestals are involved in particular religious rights, which don't relate to Vesta,

but very much relate to things that they need to have in order to do other things. The things that they hold in their temple tend to be connected with other rituals. People come to them for particular things that they've acquired through other rituals as well. They sort of mine them for a little while and then pass them on to somebody else. So they're not just standalone figures. They're part of a broader religious nexus that the Romans are constantly engaged with. they're part of it. And it feels like there's a lot of pressure on the vestals, but they are also engaged in a much broader web of interconnected things. And any one of those things going wrong

is a problem for the Romans. So a final, final question then. Let's say that I can take you back in a time machine to the ancient Roman world, at peak vestal time. Another thing I've learned about the Romans is that it's just not a great time to be a woman. But if I could say to you, you can be any kind of woman you want, you can't be an academic historian anymore, I'm afraid, because I don't think they let women do that. So that's out for you ever afraid. Rude. Would you be a Vestal? Do you think it's a good gig? I'd be really fascinated to at least give it a try. I'd be a terrible Vestal. I already know this. But I'd be interested, very interested. I mean, they've held my attention for at least 15 years now.

I find them incredibly fascinating, partly because it is not a vocation. I think the idea of any woman being selected before she's had a chance to really know what that choice means is such a hard road to follow. So if you found yourself in that situation, how would you navigate it? To me, that's a real question because I feel like the nuns, in a way, have it a little bit easier. They're like, you know, I've chosen this life for myself. I, you know, I have this devotion to a greater being and it is a choice that I've made. That's not what's going on with Vestals. They're just ordinary young women from wherever they're from. And all of a sudden,

find themselves in a very strict set of parameters in which, like, guides their day-to-day life. There's the whole ritual calendar of the year. They're doing something at least. least twice a month that relates either to their cult or somebody else's. So they're very busy. But what is it like to wander around for 30 years being like, I wonder what it would be like to have sex. I just wonder. And you'd be seeing people all the time. And it wouldn't matter what your sexuality was, I don't think. It would be the idea that would be driving you crazy, I would imagine. And how they navigated that, I find really, really interesting. Peter, you have been wonderful to talk to. I knew that you would be. And if people want to know more about you

and your work and your books, where can they find you? You can find me online at the partial historians. I run a podcast with my great friend, Dr. Fiona Radford. We are exploring ancient Rome in all of its facets. We're in the middle of the Republic right now. But we've also written a couple of books. We've written a book on the Roman kings called Rex, the Seven Kings of Rome. And and recently published your cheeky guide to the Roman Empire, which is full of the salacious stories that will make you the funnest person at dinner parties. I love it. I love it. Thank you so much for dropping by to talk to me. You've been absolutely fascinating.

Thank you so much. You too. Thanks for listening and thank you so much to Peter for joining us. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like review and follow along, whatever it is, you get your podcasts. Coming up, we're exploring the final debauch days of Rome and Tudor Aphrodisiacs. If you'd like us to explore a subject, or if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at betwixt at history hit.com. This podcast was edited by Tom Delagie and produced by Sophie G.

The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again, Betwixta Sheets, History of Sex Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.