Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Why Are We Scared Of Single Women?

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

Where did the idea of the bunny boiler come from?In this episode we're exploring how single women got such a bad rap in popular culture. From Miss Havisham to Bridget Jones, Caroline Young joins Kate once again.Caroline is the author of 'Single and Psycho: How Pop Culture Created the Unstable Single Woman'.This episode was edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Sophie Gee. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. You are listening to Bertwitster sheets, and we do like to get a bit mucky around here. So if you're a newbie, this one's for you. This is an adult podcast,

spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things and an adulty thing and an adulty way covering a range of adults of subjects and you should be an adult too. Right, fair do's, we have warned you. On with the show. As a single woman, I have to say, I do thoroughly enjoy myself. Honestly, it's great.

But growing up, I didn't have any role models around me to tell me that. When you think about the TV shows and the films of the 80s and 90s and even into the 2000s, you'd be forgiven for thinking single women were all, what was it, Bridget Jones said, covered in scales. Whether we were watching friends or sex in the city or single white female or even Ms. Haversham running around her house going completely backcrap crazy, the message was everywhere. being single as a woman is a very, very bad thing. But here's the secret.

It's not, you know. It's absolutely freaking amazing. In today's episode, we are going to be looking at the history of the single woman in film and trying to unpick where that message comes from. What do you look for a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing the button.

Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, I feel for damn. Goodness had nothing to do with it, dearie. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. There have been lots of studies on single people, but one in 2008 found that single people are often called immature, insecure, self-centered, unhappy, lonely and ugly.

Well, that's brutal, and I certainly didn't participate in that. Those kind of results are not all that uncommon. I'm hoping that attitudes are starting to change, but it's been a rough old ride. The media is forever perpetuating the idea that nobody would ever want to be single. That's the worst thing that you can be. And when we look at the way single women have been portrayed throughout history, well, they're either frigid or high maintenance or completely mental. They're the cat ladies, they're the bunny boilers.

Basically, we get a bad rap when all we want to do is be at home with our snacks doing a jigsaw. Today, Caroline Young is back on the show to talk to us about her new book, Single and Psycho, how pop culture created the unstable single woman. And frankly, I can't wait to find out more. Let's do it. Well, hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Caroline Young. How are you doing?

I'm great. Thank you. Yeah, it's great to be back on the podcast. Oh, I had so much fun talking to you last time about hags. That was brilliant. And you are back with another book. Yeah, slightly similar, but maybe slightly younger hacks, I guess. That's the kind of idea.

This is one rather close to my heart. It has to be said, single and psycho, how pop culture created the unstable single woman. Hmm, Caroline. Now, what provoked you to write this book? I was going through a bit of a crisis. I was in my 40s. I really wanted to have a child, but I felt like I'd made so many mistakes in my past. like I'd just been in rubbish relationships.

I really felt like I'd messed everything up. And I actually found comfort in horror movies and watching psychotic women on screen. It was a fatal attraction, the hand that rocks a cradle. I really found it quite cathartic. And I just got this idea to write a book and explore those films, talk a bit about myself as well and how I relate to them.

So yeah, the idea was kind of bored from that. So it's exploring the idea of singleness, but in particular single women and how the image of the single woman has been negotiated in popular culture, but not just popular culture, in sort of like legal precedence and cultural frameworks. And it's a big topic, this one.

Absolutely, yeah. So I generally focused on film and television, but I also dipped into history, some sort of social aspects, literature. So yeah, I kind of touched on lots of different strands because, yeah, it's a big, big topic. It's basically has, how the single woman, if she's single, she's childless by a certain age, she's traditionally

been treated as psychotic or as unstable, as frigid. Basically, she's got a whole lot wrong with her if she's got to a certain point in life not having gotten married or having had children. And it's sort of ingrained in our culture. You're really honest in the book when it comes to disclosing your own experiences and your own background. And it was really nice to see an academic text, but with a lot of this is what I'm bringing to it. Did you feel at all vulnerable around that? Because I am a single woman and we are not done with the stigma of single women yet. Yeah, it was kind of difficult. I don't think I meant to reveal quite so much. It just came out. Some of the feedback I got when I submitted my first draft was they thought I should bring in a

bit more about myself. So I was like, okay, fine. So I added in a lot more. And I think it adds to it, But it's scary because, like, when I'm talking about things, I do sound like a train wreck. And I realize that things sound quite messy in a way. I don't think you sound like a train wreck. I think it was really funny in places, actually. I really enjoyed it. Oh, thank you. Yeah.

I mean, I think even going back to when I was at uni, when I think about it now, all my friends, they all had long-term boyfriends. Like, even when I was, like, 1920, like, they were going out with these guys for, like, for several years. I felt like I needed to have a boyfriend, too. Oh, that pressure. Yeah, it really was. It was crazy because I was like 19, you know, or 20, and I felt this pressure. Like, I couldn't be the single one because I didn't have a group of single friends. So I think from that point, it was kind of ingrained in me this idea that, you know, you have to be coupled up.

It's a bit odd not to be in a relationship. I wish I'd had, like, more of a sort of positive sense that it's okay, actually, and I should have just enjoyed myself. But where on earth were you going to get that from? Like, when you came of age in the 90s and the naughties, like, you go back and you watch, I mean, I'm not saying that, you know, our entire culture and world outlook was shaped. by friends and sex in the city. But if you look at those shows, like the attitudes towards singleness is appalling. Like the attitude in both of those shows, you've got a very, very strong friendship group who all look out for each other and agree.

But the attitude to partners is just find anyone, literally anybody. I mean, they're saying to each other, do you know anyone at work? Do you know anybody just you can fix me up with? It's literally just anyone is better than nobody. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. When you watch Friends, you've got Monica, always on her quest, you know, to find somebody. The first episode, it was quite interesting.

I don't know if people, maybe don't remember what was in the first episode, but she goes on a date with someone from work. And she sleeps with him on the first date. And some of the feedback from the network was, you know, that made her look quite slutty because, you know, women shouldn't sleep with a guy on the first date. But the whole thing was he lied to her and pretended he was like heartbroken over his ex-wife. And so it was that double standard in friends. And yeah, sex in the city, always on the quest, you know, having to be a certain way, do your single. in a certain way. Bridget Jones, I guess, kind of. God, Bridgett. Oh. To me, that's fine because she's so sort of accident prone and I kind of see myself at her as well, you know, because I think

she just reflects all those worries that I had, you know, about being fat when I look back and clearly I wasn't fat and, you know, all these things that she was kind of thinking. So, yeah, so it was there in my life in the late 90s and the 2000s. God, it's terrifying, isn't it? And when I think about the status of single people, not just single women, but in particular single women. I think that we are actually at a very new point in our history because this is one of the first points where women can earn their own money and support themselves. Like we've kind of moved out of this financial obligation to pair up that was there only a few generations ago. So this really is some of the first groups of women en masse who can go, actually, no, you're all right. I'm not very

interested in that. Yeah, I think there is that sort of sense of freedom. It's so expensive. are having children. So I think, you know, back in the 50s or whatever, women were just expected to give up a job. They wouldn't work. They'd stay at home. Now it's like women have to have a job, plus raise children. I think it's put so much pressure on either option, really. It does, doesn't it? Yeah. Well, let's talk history because I've already jumped ahead and want to talk about everything that's happening now. Like, some of the examples throughout history, is there ever been a point where it's like, yay, single women are great? Hmm. I think it's always been slightly mixed messages, really. I mean, I suppose you could, I suppose you could are.

you, yes, there were times when, I suppose, in the 1920s, you know, you had kind of the flappers living up. There was a shortage of men, basically, because they'd been killed off in the First World War. And there was a sense of kind of hedonism and living for the moment. But at the same time, there was also a pushback against that. So there was that kind of undercurrent of, you know, there's something wrong with women. Freudian theory was coming into place. So it was this idea of like diagnosing single women. So it was, the idea of celibacy was kind of seen as sort of something wrong with it. So the idea of being single was tied in with being celibate and because it was always, you know, you'd have sex and marriage. That was kind of what the message was pushed.

So yeah, by the 1930s, it was a real kind of pushback on conservative values and family values. So yeah, I think there's always a kind of ebb and flow, really, and particularly in times of male when there's a man shortage as well. There's this interesting idea of what to do with surplus women. So it was this idea that, oh no, there's too many women, spare women. And in the 19th century, one of the ideas was to kind of ship them off to Australia, you know, to send them off. That doesn't sound too bad. I mean, it doesn't really. But yeah, it was like, how do we get rid of them?

It's probably not what I'm imagining, though, is it? It's probably not like lying out on Bondi Beach enjoying yourself. No, I think, yeah, I think maybe it wasn't quite as pleasant. No. You can see the stigma around it kind of all throughout history. I guess you get like pockets of where women are single, like I'm thinking like nunneries and things like that, where women get together and go, right, men can fuck off, we've got a herb garden, stay away, that's us, done. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there were those little pockets of women kind of, yeah, particularly within sort of religious communities as well. And there was sort of an unofficial group of women. So in the 19th century, American women who were excelling in literature, in campaigning for women's rights.

They called themselves the cult of single blessedness. And it was kind of this unofficial group. Oh, I like that. Yeah. Or like, you know, nursing, medicine, all these kind of things that women weren't supposed to be sort of excelling at. They chose to do that. A lot of women writers rejected this idea of marrying because they felt that it would impede on their time to write. Which, you know, is obviously a big thing.

Which you would have done. Yeah, like Jane Austen and the Brontes, Charlotte Bronte, didn't really want to get married. She did. But then tragically, when she was pregnant, she died. I know. She was so young. Yeah. wasn't she?

But all of their books are about not being single. They know the audience, I guess. Damn it. Damn it. Where does the word spinster come from, by the way? Because that's sort of a comedic word now. I'm not sure if anyone would actually deploy it in all seriousness. No, I know.

I like to use the word spinster just to stick in. Yeah. Just to throw it in there. Ironically. Yeah, exactly. So spinsters are sort of medieval term basically to spin. So single women were often employed with spinning. So, yeah, this idea of spinning.

So it would be a task for everyday women as well, just sort of spinning threads. And during the crusade, again, this surplus of women, because men had gone off to fight in there were crusades. So there was a lot more single women. So there's an interesting fact in Philippa Gregory's book, all about the history of women, or the history of ordered me women. I can't remember what it was called. But she mentioned how with the spinning wheel, a change in technology meant the spinning wheel had to go into the home. so it meant these single women were kind of hidden in home,

whereas they used to kind of just walk around spinning yarn and a handheld device. It'd be much more sociable and then they'd go indoors. And so it was kind of keeping them out of sight, which I thought was really interesting. That is, isn't it? Yeah. I read a book recently about early modern Germany, as you do.

And I was struck by this one word that I'm now going to massacre. It was like eigenbrotler in and it basically meant women who weren't their own bread. And these were women who saw. sewed again like the spinsters and there was such a threat that like local districts passed laws against them that they weren't allowed to do it anymore

Oh wow? Yeah isn't that crazy? I'd never ever heard of that before but you sort of get a sense of the threat of it. Do you think that a spinster contains that same level of threat? I think it does because I think it's the idea of there has to be something wrong

with a woman who's still single like why she'd not married either she's been rejected so she's unwanted or she's frigid. So also that was kind of frowned upon by the Protestant church as well. So this idea of like staying, by being celibate,

it meant you weren't married, as I mentioned. And so yeah, there was kind of various expressions around that. Like the idea of the old maid was kind of like all kind of, you know, haggard and unwanted.

But yeah, so I think spinster kind of, even though it was a practical word, then it kind of was used just to kind of describe a single woman, then it took on those negative connotations of being unwanted. When does she start?

becoming psycho because that's quite an important feature of your book. They're single and psycho. When does the mental instability start to emerge? Well, I think it kind of an undercurrent, I suppose, with I guess, this idea of the witch and, you know, that kind of, the woman who's sort of outside of the norm. She's single. She's in her house. In her house. There's something but odd about her. A bit scary, a bit freakish. So I think that's always kind of there under the surface. And then I guess it's like, you know, in the 1920s, the sort of Freudian theory. And then where you're looking at movies, there's kind of like this sort of idea of the psycho girlfriend kind of coming into play. But that term wasn't really used, but it was just kind of seemed to be a bit

easy as well. And then that was kind of maybe that link between sort of unstable, maybe drinking too much or having these kind of psychotic disorders that would make her infomaniac. So those were all kind of like tied in, particularly after the war as well, after the Second World War, when men were coming home from the war and they felt threatened by independent women so yeah this idea that you know what should have been up to when we were away and sort of the idea of being too promiscuous

sneaky women drinking too much yes exactly then you see the unstable characters coming in in film noir I mean I suppose like sort of early four runners of that might be I mean you do see isolated examples of single women who aren't doing very well like Miss Havisham for example in Charles Dickens' great experience

She didn't handle her singledom very well, did she? She didn't know. She took it to heart alone, didn't she? So she's described as a witch. You know, she's got her white hair. She's in the white dress. Oh, the witch again. Yeah, she's all skinning bones.

She's, like, his description of her is like she's wearing her wedding dresses. She once filled, but she's now shrunk. The dress is kind of baggy on her. And so that idea of locking herself away, dwelling on the past. Driven mad. Yes, this is all the stuff that was in the tag horror movies that we talked about before. It is, isn't it? I suppose it's something like Ms. Harrish and we get, like, she's not singled by choice.

But when do we start to get that, like, oh, I'm singled by choice? Or has there long been a sort of a tinge of, yeah, but it wasn't your choice. Exactly, yeah, I think, yeah, this idea of being single by choice, often the woman is kind of chasing after the man and he has to reject her. So, yeah, the idea, single by choice. Yeah, the kind of frumpy spinster who's sort of given up on life. I think you like Betty Davis and Now Voyager. but she has this kind of awakening when she meets the right man. Of course.

Yes. Of course. Because they don't often, in films and books, the single woman doesn't often realize that she's fine by herself and she's going to do some self-care and perhaps try a bit of therapy and she'll be fine. That doesn't happen. Some Prince turns up at the last minute to save her from herself. Yeah, all those films of the spinster in the 1940s, that was kind of,

I mean, I love those movies. But yeah, it's really, really interesting just to kind of see that evolution. What about after the Second World World World War? I'm thinking like the 50s and my girl Marilyn and that kind of area. How is singleness negotiated at this point in Hollywood? I mean, obviously it can be singles bad, but like what do you see changing? Marilyn actually, her career was kind of interesting because she started off playing. She actually did a whole mix of roles.

She's most known for doing her kind of ditsy blonde, where ultimately, you know, the goal is marriage and she'll kind of... Yes. She will get that. And then she played these kind of more complicated women later on. You know, they're really unlucky in love. She's kind of heartbroken. She's been around the block a bit. There's the hint, you know, that she's kind of had a bit of a past with men,

like a sugar cane in some like a hot and bus stop. The fuzzy end of the lollipop. Exactly. Yeah, she's worn. But we hope that she has a happy ending in these. In the 1950s, there was a real push to get women back into the home. And they were sold that message that marriage was basically what their destiny was. You know, they had all their home appliances they could play with.

they should be happy just looking after their children. You don't need a career. You have a washing machine. You don't need, exactly. And that's what Betty Friedan's the feminine mystique came from because she realized that there was this entire generation of miserable women who were self-medicating, who were harming themselves, who were just deeply unhappy and not fulfilled creatively as well because they were told that, yeah, their washing machines should give them all that they need. They don't need anything that's more fulfilling to them. And obviously, if people find fulfillment in that, then the best of look to you,

but is the idea that this was all that there was. Isn't that one of her lines, is this it? Is this all there is? Or something, that was a Betty Friedan idea, wasn't it? And my grandma was off her face on Valium. She was one of those women that was just like, Jesus Christ, just stuck at home all the time, cleaning stuff. I mean, it's not a good place. But you can see why they went a little bit off the rails. Some of the women that you speak about very eloquently in the book,

speaking of going off rails, Glenn Close, in Fatal Attraction? What was her name? Alex. Alex Forest. Thank you. Yes, Alex Forrest. Now, why did she focus in your attention? Because it wouldn't have immediately occurred to me that she was single, because the whole thing is about how she got laid and then she got dumped. I don't know why I don't think of that as single. Well, I mean, so that was basically, when I watched that film, that was kind of like the instigator for the book. I kind of based, the book kind of fell into place when I watched that film again. What she did in that film led to a whole concept, the bunny boiler, that came from fatal attraction. Interestingly, I was talking to like a guy, I think it was about 30, he had never

heard of fatal attraction, but he knew bunny boiler, which I thought was so interesting that it's just kind of taken on a life of its own, really. But yeah, so Alex Forrest, even her surname, Forrest, you know, very witchy, think of Sabbath and the idea of, you know, boiling the bunny, the cauldron. So yeah, she's the witch and she has to be put down by the other woman, the good woman, the good wife. Yeah, the good family wife, the one that stays at home. Exactly, yes, and who is, you know, happy with caring and nurturing and forgiving. She forgives her husband for cheating on her. Whereas Alex, you know, is the one has to be punished and she was pregnant in the film and people forget about that as well.

Yes, that is definitely overdue for a revision of like the story from Alex's point. of view, because she wasn't the one who was married. She did know that he was married. She did, yeah. Yeah, he didn't lie to her about that. But I think she just is fed up. She's just like, you know, I've had it. Yeah.

You just kind of use me for one moment and then cast me aside and expect me to be cool about it. I did remember, because there's that bit in the film where she's become so unstable, she's now resorted to recording herself ranting on a tape and giving it to Michael Douglas's character to play because he won't talk to her. But there is one bit in it, and she goes, and it's, I can't remember what she says, along the lines of like, did you expect that you could just like shag me and then move on? And I do remember at the time thinking, good point, Alex, badly delivered, but good point. Is that what he thought he could do?

Just have like a quick shag and then, and then he'd be able to go back home to his wife and his children and all would be well. Yes, exactly. I think that's exactly what he thought. And she's just had it. I guess she's been treated, you know, like that on other occasions. And I think she talks about how she had a bad miscarriage in the past, that kind of stuck in my head. because you think, okay, she's had all this trauma in the past and all these things and now she's pregnant.

And she's being told, you know, the guy just wants her to get rid of it and she doesn't want to. She says she's 36 and it's her last chance in life. I think 36 is a bit young. Yeah, so do I. But it was the 80s, wasn't it? It was the 80s. So let's face it. So I felt great sympathy for her.

You sort of think, okay, maybe cool it a little bit. But I definitely feel some understanding. You say in the book that you identify a lot with Alex. That struck me in the book. why? Why do you feel that what is it? It can't be the sneaking into someone's house and murdering their pets, or at least I hope it's not. It's definitely not that. No, it was more just that kind of disappointment and heartbreak and I think just experienced that kind of frustration, you know, of being ghosted. I'd been ghosted and I think I understood that is not nice and I understood how that feels. So yeah, obviously I didn't do any stalking or anything like that. It is parts of you that you kind of wants, you have this idea of taking revenge.

That's so true, actually. We're now tapping into a very dark part of ourselves. Yes. That is true. There is a tiny part of you that's like, I kind of wish I could break into his house and burn his pets, fucking dickhead. Or yeah, do something like, email his work,

something like, but obviously not do that. And don't do that, people listening, please. But there is that kind of, you want to, but obviously the sensible part and the kind of moral, side of you knows not to do that. So I could kind of understand. Is it true that there was actually a different ending of that film originally filmed that got rejected by test audiences?

Yes, yeah. So in the original ending, Alex killed herself. She stabbed herself. But when the audience watched that, they felt that Alex needed to be punished. She needed Dan or his wife to punish her. And so, yeah, they filmed another ending. Glenn Close was really like not wanting to do it. she felt it just kind of made the film, turned film into a horror.

But yeah, the studio insisted and yeah, it made so much money. It was just this, yeah. And apparently in America, audiences were just like cheering, you know, all that kind of thing that they do. So, yeah. So that image of the obsessive woman, because that's a sort of a slight shift in the narrative because it's not, if you were something like Jane Austen sort of earlier and was carvishing, the idea of a single woman and it's like, oh, it's sad. Oh, it's so sad. She's so sad.

She's gone completely mad and now she's sat at home, being sad in an old wedding dress. This is a shift to like, oh, she's fucking mad now. That's quite scary. What other examples do you have that where it's like it's like the rejection or it's like the sex? She's become predatory. Actually, interestingly, there is a film from the 1970s, which was directed by Clint Eastwood called Play Misty for Me. And that's very similar to fatal attraction. And he was always So, yeah, it's good. And he also directed a film called The Beguiled, which is about Civil War School run by women, and they all live together without men.

And he's a soldier who they mend back to health, and they all fall in love of him. But they're also dangerous. And it's this idea of kind of the single isolated woman who can become dangerous. And I think that was developing in the 70s as a sort of reaction to the feminist movement. When I was writing the book, I also thought about the Manson family. That trial in 1971, it was those young women who were like completely brainwashed. They're so blank. They're like the girls from the shining.

And I think there was something really quite horrific to society when they saw these women, like young women, out of control, brainwashed, murderous. And that tied in with the feminist movement as well and this idea of like the dangerous single woman and what she was capable of. And you could see there's something emasculating happening as well. It's not just that she got dumped. It's now that she's an emasculating figure as well. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. In the 1980s, as family values were really being pushed, this idea that the single woman, she doesn't belong in the family.

She's pushed out because she's predatory, but she kind of needs to be pushed away. And she's preying on the ideal domestic setting. I'll be back with Caroline after this short break. And then you've got something like single white female, which specifically uses the term single in its... title. What was your take on that? Yeah, so that's interesting. That's again, this idea of the threat coming into the home, but this time it's single woman living in the city who need to be

afraid of other single women in the city. Yes, it's a good twist. Yes. So yeah, because I think, yeah, that idea of like the independent young woman living her life, but the character, played by Bridget Fonder, she was living with her boyfriend, but he cheats on her, so now she's alone. And so she lets this other woman into her life. And this other woman starts copying her getting the same haircut and dressing the same way, I guess it could be read as a warning about living on your own in a city. And if you single too long, you could let someone bad into your life. You could be murdered, basically, seems to be the message there.

In extreme cases, singleness will lead to stalking and then death possibly. Yes. Like the Had in the Rots, the cradle was also another one. And that again was like, the woman who without a child who wants to steal someone else's child. So I love that movie. But yeah, again, it feeds into this idea. of it's also actually kind of a warning about using child care. So it was like saying, well, the mother should stay at home and look after her own children.

Bringing this nanny in to do all the work. And this is what happened, you know. One of my favourite single women. And you're not supposed to like her, but I do, Corolla Javille. I hadn't put it together, but that was released the same year that the contraceptive pill was released. Oh, interesting, right? I don't know if there's a connection there, but I just sort of see. And again, it's everything that you're saying about like, she is.

that very unstable, very single, very anti-family. She has a whole big talk about how, you know, more women have been lost to marriage than war, famine, disease and disaster. And you can, yeah, actually, Karela, good point. But again, we see that, I guess the puppies become like a proxy family that she's trying to destroy there as well. And of course, the career, she's career-orientated. Yeah. Oh, that's such a good point. Yes, I never thought about Karela Zaville, But yes, she is basically Alex Forrest trying to destroy. God, she is. Children's animals, children's beloved pets.

Where else do we see that emphasis on that career woman? That's another stigma is that you're so career-orientated. You just don't have time for a family. Families again. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's definitely in the 80s, that message was starting to come through. You have Working Girl, where you've got a Sigourney Weaver, who's, you know, very ruthless at work.

And then you have suspect starring sure. It was this idea of burnout as well That was the big thing in the 80s Women were... Burnout? Yeah, they were exhausted because they were working so hard and they didn't have time for families

they'd put all that, they'd forgotten about it and female writers were talking about how they'd been sold a lie they'd been told that feminism was the answer but it's not because now we've lost our chance. So there's a lot of fear mongering that if you lost your chance of getting married then you know you lost your chance

of maybe able to have a baby as well so. Heaven for fend. who's all tied in together. We kind of like moving out of the 80s where it's just like single women are going to kill you. They're going to come into your home and they might actually murder you.

But then we sort of move into the 90s and the 80s and the 2000s equally as judgmental and awful. But we do have a, I don't know how single women are being treated at this point. Not well. I mean the dominant narratives are things like Sex and the City and Bridget Jones and she becomes, again, that tragic bit has come back again.

Yeah, I mean, it became a bit more, So rather than the predatory single woman, it then became more comedic. So it was kind of like sitcoms dealing with singleness and Bridget Jones, Sex and the City, which were kind of, I guess, supposed to be celebrating this idea of being single. But also it was kind of like they're slightly tragic. You know, Bridget is a slightly tragic character and Carrie in Sex and the City. Yeah, it's kind of a celebration about the same time it's that question of, but it's not fulfilling. No, it's very relationship-orientated, isn't it?

Yes, exactly, yeah. And that idea of the kind of psycho-single woman also comes out in the 2000s because there's this idea of the dating manual. So the idea of the rules, that you have to stick with the rules. And if you don't stick with the rules and do the right thing, then you'll end up being left alone. And that's kind of what a lot of sexisties kind of played into the idea of that, of the dating manual and films like How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days,

was like you must, if you do all these bad things, you're going to chase the guy away and you're not going to have the happy ending that you want. The idea of being the cool girl. That was kind of what it also taps into. It's just that I'm trying to think that when I was growing up, like if I ever heard a narrative where it was like, it's all right to be single,

I don't believe that I've encountered that anywhere. There's this assumption that you're going to get married and have babies from everywhere that you take on board yourself. Everyone around you is just instinctively getting coupled up. of our media is screaming at us. Like we've, you know, Bridget Jones, the whole film was about the fact that she wasn't in a relationship. And it's just like, no one ever says to you that it's all right.

You don't have to do that. It's optional. Yeah. Exactly. There is such an expectation on it. And I loved reading gossip magazines. So I would always like buy Heat magazine or I'd buy, you know, all those kind of things. And there was always the idea of sad Jen as well, you know, who'd been dumped or

who'd, you know, lost her chance of having a family. And young celebrities were attacked for living their lives in a particular way, for partying too much, for putting on weight, for losing too much weight, for being the wrong kind of women so they get dumped. So, yeah, it was all these messages about trying to, you have to be the right, you have to look the right way, you have to act the right way. You have to be attractive. Yes, yeah.

And all these things, you know, just battled with all the time, like just throughout my 20s and 30s. So how did you go about, um, picking some of that then? I was kind of thinking about that in terms of, yeah, those messages that you get sold. I mean, because the thing is, I've tried to write it in a fun way because I love these movies. I'm not saying, you know, this is terrible. We mustn't ever watch them. But I think it's just so interesting when you put it in a social context, I suppose, and just say, what's actually happening at the time when these films were made? Like, what's happening in the 80s when

fatal attraction was made? Why was that message so dominant then? And then you can kind of apply that to now and look at like our culture now and see how these things are working. Actually, everything just kind of rolled into place, just start researching and watching and kind of, I was thinking about things at my life and thinking, oh yeah, that's, that's interesting. And one of the stories that I talk about is I hadn't really lived with anybody when I was in my early 30s. And someone actually, a guy at work said, oh, have you never lived with anyone? And he kind of implied that was weird. And so I ended up stupidly letting this boyfriend move into my flat. And I didn't get rid of them for six years. Oh, we've all done it. It was terrible. It were really bad.

And I think it was from that person saying that to me, and it just made me think, like, that's really abnormal. And it's not. And see, that's the thing. And that's what I also wanted to get in the book is, like, all these messages. But actually, you know, you should just embrace where you're at in life and not sort of worry. I couldn't agree more. It's a really strange thing, having been single for as long as I've been single,

and like encountering the stigma and encountering the headcocks to one side. Oh, don't worry. You'll meet somebody. Oh, like people. Endlessly trying to fix you up with somebody. People worrying about you. People assuming that it's a temporary state or some kind of failing. And to me, it feels like I've got the cheat sheet to life.

I'm so sorry to anyone listening to this who's in a terrible relationship. I'm very sorry. But it's just so quiet. It's just so peaceful. I go to bed and I starfish on my bed and I scroll through. And I spend my money on what I want to and I go where I want to. I do what I want to. And I don't, men out there, you are lovely.

but unfortunately the ones I've dated have been massive knobbeds. And they're just not there wrecking stuff. Yes. Yes. You know, I loved living on my own when I was in my early 30s. I just, I had such a good time. And, you know, I decided that I wasn't going to have flatmates anymore. I was just going to live by myself. And it was amazing.

I loved it so much. And I wish that I'd kind of not let this person destroy that. Suddenly your space isn't your own. And it's like, I think women, we always sort of maybe let them take over a bit. Yeah, we push us, you know. Like suddenly I can't put my yoga mat down on the floor here because he's watching something playing computer games or I can't do this or, you know. Yeah, I think I just always like shifted my behaviour to fit around someone else. I recognise that within myself.

If I'm in a relationship with somebody like myself starts to become second place. Like I start like centering everything around this other person until I find myself just like, what the what is going on here? And it's not a good place to be. But we can't turn this into an impromptory therapy. I'll be back with Caroline after this short break. Where are we up to today, do you think? Because single women are often back in the news with the rise of your alt-right men's-right insult influences who are so keen to tell everyone how awful it is to be a single woman.

What's your thoughts on that? Oh yeah, I mean, it's kind of depressing, really. So, yeah, I guess you could laugh at it, but there is something very insidious about it and just kind of like nasty. It's nasty. Yeah, the way that women are kind of talked about by men as being properties and of having to kind of bend to the will of men and not being considered human, I guess, in some ways.

So, yeah, just not treated equal. And it's just really kind of, yeah, it's depressing that I think young women are kind of growing up with that now because I thought we'd kind of moved on a bit. I mean, there's a lot of things I thought we'd moved on a bit since like the 2010s. But, yeah, it's just that way, you know, it's the way it kind of, the push and pull, it just comes back. We had the kind of feminism of the 2010s and the Me Too movement. So I guess it's inevitable there's going to be a pushback against it. So, yeah, it was interesting that kind of dynamic between childless cat ladies, tradwives.

Childless cat ladies. Yeah. Oh, the trad. I shouldn't say, if there are any trad wives listening, God, God bless you, off you go, do your thing. But I find that fucking terrifying. And what's the weirdest thing about that is they aren't traditional wives. They're cosplaying as traditional wives. They are business women.

So if anyone's listening to this doesn't know what a trad wife is, because you quickly explain that, please. Yeah, well, so it's a social media phenomenon, really. It's like a TikTok thing where you get these women who are very nurturing. They enjoy staying at home, looking after your kid, making... Sourdough. Making sourdough. Making their own cheese.

Yeah. Making these really elaborate dishes. Making around better. Yeah. We're often wearing these like organic cottons, like this kind of flowing sort of dresses, very sort of prairie, little house in the prairie kind of style. Yeah, it's that idea that their satisfaction is just looking after the kids and staying at home. But obviously they're putting a lot of time into their social media. So actually they are working really.

So they're working women, but they're just, you know, creating this fantasy life. And not only that, they're probably bringing in more money than this dope, sorry, man that they're supposed to. and be like, I'm just like, I just love my husband. She's the breadwinner. Yeah. And then there's that kind of layer underneath. You wonder how much they're being controlled by their husband. There was that interesting article in the Times with Ballerida Farm. I know.

Where she's saying that he told her not to have an epidural during childbirth. She's got like eight kids, I think. And she was a dancer at Juilliard, wasn't she? With these huge ambitions. And it's, you know, the article didn't explicitly state it. But it's clearly held up of like, mate, that was like your dream. and now you're fucking making cheese on a farm. My God, what's happened?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think she pushed back against that. She certainly did. She certainly did so. If she's happy. Yeah. I mean,

I guess there is that kind of sense of wanting to escape with this kind of slightly old-fashioned making your food. It's very easy to become radicalised, but they're all Mormons as well, by the way. Well, there's that, yeah. Radicalised by Mormons through TikTok.

Yes, exactly. But it reminds me of Phyllis, is it Phyllis Sheafley? Have you ever seen Mrs. America with Kate Blanchett. Yes. So this idea that she's pushing back against progress, women's progress, but at the same time she's a working woman. She's trying to encourage women to stay at home. But she's spending all her time campaigning against women working. So yeah, it's going back to the 70s again. It's, yeah, it's that pushback.

No, just keep going, ladies. If some guy tells you that you're not allowed to go out to work because you have to stay at home and make him cheese, just hit him with something, please. just do you think that we're moving to it because sometimes when I'm feeling more generous about this stuff is like I look at it as this is a severe reaction to where feminism has brought us to today which is that women do not need men in the way that they financially and socially needed them the dynamics of relationships have to shift and sometimes I think that this kind of very aggressive misogyny is a sort of a last death rattle what do you think do you think I'm very wide of the mark with that? No, I think it's kind of that sort of desperation point where people are like, hang on a minute, guys, you know, they feel like they've lost control. Which I don't know, maybe they kind of like had slightly sad lives when they were younger and then now they've become powerful. I don't know. For anyone that's listening to this that might be single or is in a relationship that's crap and fears being single, what after all your research would be your message to them about being a single woman? I think you just should enjoy where you're at in life.

Yeah, I mean, I know it's kind of like, you see all these things about how you're supposed to be in a relationship and you find happiness. Yeah, I mean, being a relationship can be great. You know, I know lots of people who have been very loving, happy marriages and it's, you know, wonderful. But I think if you're in the wrong relationship as well. So I think feeling like you're rushed, like you have to be in a relationship or you're rushing into something. It can just lead you to kind of into toxic situations and that's worse. You're better off enjoying, like, being single. And it's not, I used to feel such anxiety about it. But yeah, I don't, you sort of think, what do you? what are you anxious about? There's nothing to feel anxious about. And also, you know, if it's because you want to have a baby, you can have a baby by yourself. It's not. You can have a baby by yourself. Yeah. You know, because I think that was for me was kind of like the, I was never worried about marriage, but I always wanted to have a child. But yeah, you know, there's so many options now that you, you know, you don't need to think that's like finding someone is like the be all and end of all of that. No. And don't boil anyone's pets. I think that's. Yeah, because also we like animals.

What are her animals? Oh, Caroline, you've been marvelous to talk to. I knew you would be. Thank you. If people want to know more about you and your research and your new book, where can they find you? So I'm on Caroline J.ay Young.com. I'm on Instagram as Caroline Jill Young.

And my book is, yeah, out soon. Should we give it the full title one more time? Yeah. Single and Psycho, how pop culture created the unstable single woman. Fabulous. Thank you so much. You've been brilliant. Thank you.

Thanks. Great to talk to you. Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Caroline for joining me. And if you look what you heard, don't forget to like review and follow along whatever it is that you get your podcasts. Coming up, we are going to be continuing our deep dive into sex work throughout history from the brothelships to the Wild West. And if you'd like us to explore a subject or if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at betwixt at history hit.com.

This podcast was edited and produced by Sophie G. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again, Betwixt the Sheets, the History of Sex Scandal, Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.