Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Women & Football

Episode Date: August 19, 2022

Football, or soccer depending on where you are in the world, is quite unsuitable for women, wouldn’t you agree? No? Well the Football Association thought so when they issued a ban on women’s football in 1921, which stayed in place for fifty years.Off the back of England's Lionesses winning the Euros (it's also the 20th anniversary of Bend It Like Beckham, which must mean something) Kate is joined by The Guardian's women's football correspondent, Suzanne Wrack, to talk about the rise and fall, and rise again of women's football.Hear about the factory girls of World War One, meet some of the early stars like Nettie Honeyball, and find out why the game became so political.You can find out more about Suzanne's book here, and listen to her podcast here.*WARNING there are naughty words in this episode*Produced by Charlotte Long and Sophie Gee. Mixed by Thomas Ntinas.Betwixt the Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society. A podcast by History Hit.For more History Hit content, subscribe to our newsletters here.If you'd like to learn even more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad-free podcasts, and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today!You've been listening to a History Hit podcast. Please take a couple of minutes to fill out this survey with your feedback, we'd really appreciate it. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Oh my lovely betwixters, welcome back to betwixta sheet. This is your fair do's warning. Fair do's, this subject, may be unsuitable for delicate or very young ears. We're talking about the history of women's football, and there might be some swearing involved. So fair do's, you have been warned.

Football or soccer, depending on where in the world you're listening to this. Well, you can say what you want about it, but it's just definitely quite unsuitable for us. Delicate females, wouldn't you agree? No. Well, the Football Association thought it was when they issued a ban on women's football in 1921, which stayed in place for 50 years. 50 years. It wasn't repealed until 1971. It wasn't that women didn't want to play football. They couldn't play professional football. Here in England, we are celebrating the success of our women's football team, the lionesses at the Euros, the first time an England team has ever.

won at the European Football Championships. So on the back of that, we are looking into the history of the so-called beautiful game. We'll be going back to the Factory Girls of World War I, meeting some of the early stars and, well, finding out how it all became so political. What do you look for a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning it up and putting the funny.

Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, I feel no time. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Derry. On the 31st of July 2022, England's women's football team won the euros against our old rivals, Germany. Side note, did you know that 2022 is actually 20 years since Bendett, like Beckham first came out? I don't know if that means something, but it feels like it should. But as recently as 1971, women were not allowed to play professional football. Banned, couldn't do it. Today I'm joined by Suzanne Rack, the Guardian's women's football correspondent,

and the first person to hold that position at a national newspaper, by the way. To talk about the rise for and rise again of women's football from the late 19th century to now. Find out why Netty Honeyball, or name, Netty Honeyball was such a legend, and hear about groundbreaking moments which changed the game for women's football forever. Enjoy. Thank you so much to Susie Rack for joining me, Betwixt the Sheets. having me. Should be fun. I feel like I should start by going, ole, ole, ole, ole. That is an intro. I want that every time I do any podcast now, I think.

That would be like your Darth Vader theme music. I've got my son's drum kit behind me and every time I do football weekly of The Guardian, like the guys on it are going, oh, come on, play us out, play us out. And I was like, I don't play. It's my sons. I love that. Oh, so you must be so in demand at the moment to talk about women's football. Just a bit, just a bit. Just a smit, just a little bit. There are a lot of requests for like the day after the final and I was like,

God, I bet. I'm not replying to any of these. A, I'm still working. So I had like requests saying, oh, can you come in the studio this time or can you jump on this radio show at this time? I'm at Chavagas Square speaking to the players and then writing up three articles. I know. And then I need rest. So, yeah, I've had to like put my foot down a few times.

But, no, it's good. Like it's great, isn't it? Like, the interest is sky high and it's good that people want to talk about it and stuff. And I like coming on things and chatting about the women's game and the growth of it and the euros and what's happened and all that kind of stuff. Because it's really, like, exciting and enjoyable to be a part of it. And it's great to talk about it. I'm so pleased that you've come here to speak to me today because it feels like something's different. It's not just because they won the euros.

the, also for people that aren't in the UK, and I've been caught up with this. The England women's football team won the European Cup and everyone's lost their shit completely, haven't they? Oh yeah, I mean, I even bought a bucket hat. Where is it? Here it is, look. You know, never worn a bucket hat in my life,

and I've got an England bucket hat made out of an old England shirt. We've lost the plot. Exactly, yeah, completely. It feels like something's different, though, this time. And is it the media coverage, or is it like, what I'm going to talk about is the history? history of this. Women have been playing football for a long time, but what do you think is shifting now? It feels like there's more energy, more focus, more, I don't know, what do you think?

I feel like it's a culmination of things coming together at exactly the right time. Like timing is everything and we're at a period of time where people are switching on to women's sport, but also just like people in general, not just women, men as well, but the importance of having a good relationship with your body, that women have been like sort of grossly let down in that area for such a long time, how all of the benefits health-wise, but also mentally, education-wise, in the boardroom to being a part of team sports. All of those things are sort of on the side of women's sport at the moment. And then you've got like, you know, in society more generally, you've had the Me Too movement, the big protests over, you know, the death of Sarah

Everard and things like that. And there's a real change in attitudes towards women in society generally. And also women not just accepting sort of what we're given. You know, the equal pay gap and things like that. There's not all of that. So it happening, the England women team winning the Euros, like within the context of all of this. And then that the FA have also been investing. And the FA Women's Super League, the Barclays Women's Super League,

is professional, one of the most invested in leagues around the world. Like, a lot of big clubs are invested in it. Lots of big brands are sort of jumping on board. It's like all of those things coming together at this perfect moment in time. and then this team like achieved something that the men have been trying to do for 50 odd years. And finally it's done. And football is brought home, but it's not by the men, it's by the women. And I think you can't underestimate just how powerful the impact of that is.

And that it's, you know, that all of that coming together. And then that happening is not just going to impact the growth of women's football and sport, but also just the way people look at women in society generally as well, I think. Definitely. I'm so excited for them. Like, honestly, I know fuck all about football. It's like, it's bad. But I think that's one of the things that's so appealing about it, actually,

is it apart from the offside rule, which can take a little bit of explaining, it is quite simple. This group of people are trying to kick the ball there and that group of people are trying to kick it that way. Is it quite a simple sport which makes it so appealing. But it is an old sport as well, isn't it? What are some of the oldest records that we've got of what we would call football today or soccer?

Yeah, totally. I mean, one of the things that I think is like it's almost been, maids to be viewed as like too complicated for women to want to get involved in. Actually, the offside rule, if you have a woman explain it to you, you'll understand it a lot quicker than if any man tries to explain it to you. You know, like, it's actually, you know, not, not that complicated, just a few props and it's you're good to go. And it's actually quite a logical thing. Like, even things like that, like, we're made to feel like we don't belong in that space. And that's one of the ways they do it is, like, makes something feel too complicated for us,

for our little brains to comprehend. But yeah, I mean, it's such a rich history. Little Ladybrain. Exactly, yeah. It's such a rich history to women's football. So when I was writing my book, which is sort of like a general, political, social history of women's football, I didn't realize how far I would go back for it.

You know, I knew that there was this woman called Nettie Honeyball, which was a pseudonym in the late 1800s, early 1900s. And I knew that there were teams in the 1920s as well. It's the best name in the world. I know, right. It's brilliant. And I knew they existed, but I didn't realize that it actually went back even further than that,

that you could trace it, like, all the way back to, Like the earliest examples of men kicking balls with their feet, which, you know, wasn't necessarily, you know, it wasn't like association rules. Football, as we know it today. But like the first examples of people playing with football sort of thing, which were sort of present in the hand dynasty in China. And at that time, that was quite a big thing and a big sport. And there's evidence to suggest that women did that as well. And we're involved in that at that time and were spectators of it and enjoyed it. And it's like very limited evidence. But the fact that there is any when there's so little evidence of women playing football throughout the years, like suggests that this wasn't a totally alien concept. And then the first examples of like women's football in the form that we'd recognise it today is the late 1800s when Netty Honeyball founded the British Ladies Football Club and played a North East South game in the late 1800s, early 1900s. And they were playing for like a few years and then that slowly died off. And it was very much a political

thing for them to be doing. So she was really explicit. She was a suffragette. Like, she was real, real into campaigning for equality for women generally, big advocate of the right of women to wear trousers and whatever clothes they wanted. And she saw football was a tool for, like, changing attitudes in society generally. Very, very explicitly in an interview, she says that. And so that was like really interesting for me because I didn't realize it was being used like that. Where did she come from? So she came from London. And it's sort of like a little unknown as to who exactly she was. And I've got, there's a theory in the book of to who she might have been, but like a few people have, you know, kind of different opinions on who exactly was

the person behind the pseudonym. Oh, that wasn't a real name, Nettie Honey Bowl. No, no, that's, yeah, yeah, it's a pseudonym. It's been attributed to a few different people. And basically, yeah, set up this team that, you know, went on and played some games and they got some crowds. and, I mean, they were, you know, kind of chased off the pitch at points by, like, vicious mobs of male fans. Really? Wow. To, you know, kind of got a little bit of tanked up and riled up by their existence. But then at other games, you know, they got quite a lot of support and interest and were a bit of a novelty. And, yeah, played for a long time.

And then the biggest boom was in the sort of 1920s during the war. Nettie Honeyball, this just incredible woman sort of just lands in the British, consciousness with the most amazing name ever. What do we know about her? Like, do we know, and the names are pseudonym, but like, do we know anything concrete about who she was? No, very, very little. Like, there's various speculations.

So there's a few people that she could have been, that, you know, there's a woman who put the advert in the paper, which was Nettie Honeyball, asking for players to join. But the address is an address in London with a different name on it, whose name escaped from me at the moment. But it could have been her.

But that could have also just been someone, one she knew because there was this family that helped set up the team based in London and I think that was the home of that family. And then there's also theories that the name was adopted by a couple of different people later on as well. Ah, like an I Am Spartacus moment. Yeah, sort of that. You know, when there was a bit of a split in the team and, you know, second team was set up and they sort of both had a netty honeyball type character. But the original, like all these fantastic interviews in the press where they're really, really political, really like football is the biggest sport in the country. It's a tool for us to raise issues of suffrage. She's a suffragette.

Exactly, yeah. We can campaign for equality and equity through football. Wow. And, you know, for the right for women to wear the clothes they want and that kind of stuff through football, which I wasn't expecting to stumble across that history. I was just sort of expecting to stumble cross some women that wanted to play football. I wasn't expecting already at that stage for people to be thinking about it in those terms. Obviously, I think she quite liked football and liked sport. That's sort of evident from some of the interviews she did, but that was sort of the start of things.

And then the football died off at a bit of women's football for a number of years. And sort of the early 20th century was that? So the FA banned women's football in 1921 when it was reaching a peak. Well, that'd do it. Yeah. prior to that. And one of the things I found in the book was, when I was researching, was that there was possibly a ban earlier than that as well. So I, like, it was just hinted at in a couple of articles and things and really need to get into the, the football museum's archives,

which was very difficult during lockdown, to, like, properly scour the FA Council minutes from, like, the late 1800s, early 1900. But there's evidence to suggest that there may have been a ban much, much sooner. And that's possibly why it sort of died down at that time. But then, so then I think that band just gets forgotten about. And women's football really explodes during the war because you've got all these men going out to fight, women filling into the factories. Yeah, of course.

And then factory teams growing. So what happened was you had football sort of being encouraged at that point because in the same way that men's teams were formed out of factories. So were women's because it was good for morale and it was good for, have a healthy workforce. So women playing football, particularly in a war time, was seen as a good thing. So you had all these factory teams to bring up. And then there were actually tens of thousands of people

because there was no men's football being played because the war was raging. Going to watch women's football. And it was really, really growing. And it was outside the FAA's controlled, real sort of developing beast. It peaked in the, I think it was 1920. There were 53,000 at Goodersen Park, Everton's Ground. Wow. Oh, my goodness.

Yeah, to watch Dicker, ladies. which was the biggest team at the time, play their local rivals, St Helens. It's reported that there was like another sort of 15, 16,000 outside trying to get in without tickets. And that was sort of a bit of a turning point because it was almost a year later exactly that the FA banned women's football. And the way it did it was it bans them from playing on FA affiliated football grounds. So clubs couldn't host their games and they couldn't use FAA approved referees. So it wasn't like an outright. They couldn't stop women just from playing football,

but they forced it into like parks and rugby league pitches that were very small and athletics tracks and killed those huge crowds they were getting. And the reason is twofold. So on the one hand, you had this like sort of ideological shift in society towards all the women, right? This is 1921.

So like the war is over and the men are coming back and the women are being forced back into the homes and there's a bit of a more generalised setback for women's rights at that time. So playing football is not. not like the done thing anymore and not seen the right thing. So you've got the FA rolling out doctors saying it's unsuitable for women to be playing sport, you know, their wounds will fall out and that kind of ridiculous stuff. And constant hazard. Exactly, yeah. I walk down the street

in constant fear. What's that in my shoe? It's fallen out again. Oh, thank God I wasn't playing football. There was that side of it where they were like on a little bit of a ideological, offensive against it and against women playing sport and it was time for them to go back into the home and then on the other side, when they were playing and they were playing to these huge crowds of tens of thousands, they'd been raising money for charity so they, while the war was going on

and in the sort of short time period afterwards, they were raising money a lot of the time for like war wounded and military hospitals. But once the war was over, they were like, right, where should we donate our money next? And a lot of them were, you know, like I say, factory girls, they were from like little working class communities, towns,

up in the north in a lot of cases. So the biggest next cause was the striking miners donating to support the like financially struggling striking miners and their families. And that was a politicisation of the money that scared the establishment and the Football Association. There was this money outside their control. It was now being used politically for causes that they didn't support. They didn't have control over it. It was growing uncontrollably. and they were worried that it would, A, continue along that route, but also impact the men's game, and that it was taking money away from the men's game and stuff.

So those were, like, the two reasons combining to lead to this ban in 1921 that lasted for close to 50 years. That's wild, isn't it, that it wasn't repealed until the 70s? Yeah. Which is, like, I watched a Colombo episode on Sunday from the 70s. It's, like, it's really recent. It is so recent. Is that in back?

It's embarrassing just to say it like until the 1970s, women couldn't play professional football. Yeah. The 70s. And there wasn't any, you know, there was unofficial attempts to form England teams and things like that that were going to compete abroad and stuff, but they weren't supported by the FA. They were unofficial. Even the official teams that were set up after the ban was lifted have struggled to get recognition for the role they played in the very, very first official England teams. So it's only literally during the Euros that it was announced that the very first team,

of that was formed in the late 60s, early 70s, are going to get actual caps for their time as players, whereas previously the FA had said, no, we're not doing it, it was different time. You know, we can't do this for various reasons, and I'd refuse to sort of recognise that achievement in that way. And it's only during the Euros that they've gone beyond words of just like, oh, these were the pioneers to actually,

we are going to formally recognise the amount of appearances you have in an England shirt, in an official capacity. Never mind the teams that are playing before that unofficially. It's just a lot to sit with. Women had the vote before they were allowed to play football professionally in this country. Yeah, I mean, it is that mad, isn't it?

And even then, even when the FA lifted the ban, they still weren't supportive of it. And they were sort of forced to do it as well. Like, it was a lot of pressure from UEFA from the European governing body saying that, like, federations must adopt it. And it was very much like,

and take it under their wings. And it was very much a sort of strategic move more than anything. It was like, this is growing again. We need to control it from the off. Like, we can't let it grow beyond its means. We need to get our arm around it and take ownership of what they're doing in case it grows too big and outside of our control.

So it was very much like a power play. It wasn't like, oh, we suddenly believe that women's football should be allowed to be played. It was like a form of control. And it wasn't until, so it was in 1993 that the FAA actually took over the running of women's football because the women's FAA had been set up in the late 60s. and that was like a part of putting pressure on the FA to recognise the game. And the women's FA continued to run it alongside sort of FA assistance until 1993. And then the FA take over in 1993.

But even then, they don't do a huge amount to invest in it. No. Minor sort of things. And it's not really until like literally within the last sort of 10 years that you actually get a real, I would say, like ideological switch within the FA that says we need to be doing something. about women's football and writing this wrong. And I think back to 2017, there was a meeting, like a press conference at Wembley with the FA and they were launching this strategy, their game plan for growth for women's football. And Martin Glenn was the chief executive at the time. He

got up and he apologised for the ban on women's football. And that was the first time a representative of the FA had apologised for the 50-year ban on women's football in 2017 after it was lifted in the 70s and said that this was a wrong and we needed to write it and that kind of stuff. And now we're trying to do something to write that wrong. And it's literally taken that long to reach a point where we're just at a point where they are going, we owe the women's game something. And since then you've seen this huge investment and the game plan for growth had all these ambitious targets which they've met in three years, which was like to double

participation, double attendances, gets to win a major tournament by the euros we've just had or the World Cup next year, they were targets they set in 2017, and they pretty much hit every single one, and they relaunched a game plan for growth. They basically have, you know, up to all those targets and improved the ambitions and, like, you know, talking about the pathway for England players and all that kind of stuff. But it's really, really, really new, really modern.

It's really recent. Yeah, really, really, really modern that you've got a really engaged FAA in the growth of women's football. We've reached half-time. to the locker room, get yourself some oranges, stretch, get back in the game. Sorry, I couldn't resist any of that. But join me and Suzanne Rack for the second half after this short break. Move over Rome, move over Greece.

This month on the ancients, we're heading to the Americas, north, mezzo and south. Join us every Sunday this August as we explore this area of the world's extraordinary distant past with leading experts. From the rise and fall of Teotihuacuan to the mysterious Nazareth. Kirk lines. A journey through the ancient Americas every Sunday this August on the ancients from history hit. But without investment and rep, and it becomes a kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy because, you know, I remember growing up and I did want to play football and I was told flatly like you can't because you were a girl. And I remember having conversations with people about women's football, women's sport. And there was always this subtext that they were kind of

just having a go at it or that it wasn't like the proper sport or like, you know, I've even heard people say oh no, like proper football when they mean men's football. And I think that like, well, maybe you'll tell me I'm wrong, but it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy because you never see the representation. You're not used to seeing it. It's not there. It's weird when you do see it. So therefore people react to it hostily.

They don't want to see it. And I feel like what shifted with the media coverage of the women's World Cup this time is it was kind of everywhere in a positive light. And it was like, you know, that was kind of different. Yeah, like I definitely think that's true. I was lucky. I was really, really lucky because I grew up. in Hoxton in Hackney and when I was like four or five, Arsenal ladies, as they were then known,

trained in the park opposite me for a bit, leafly in my council estate, the players did, saying we're training here come and watch. My dad used to trot across the road with me and my dad's, like a big socialist and feminist, and we're sit and watch Arsenal ladies train and play. So I had that visibility from a young age. When we went to watch the like Arsenal double winning parade for the men's team in 98, the women's team were on the bus behind the men with their trophies as well. Like there was a presence there. Not as bigger presence because, you know, I couldn't watch the games very easily or anything like that, but I knew that it existed and that there were players. And I had no idea whether they were professional or not. Like, I was a little kid beyond my

like knowledge, but they were there. Exactly. And like, I suppose it's the same for me in that like, I loved football as a child. Like, obviously I still do. I was obsessed and I play. I was the only girl to play in my primary school with the boys and I loved it. And there was a point at which I remember just feeling like I'm supposed to grow out of this now. I don't want to, but I'm supposed to. And it's like that point of which, you know, back then there were only boys fit shirts. You know, they didn't have women's fits or girls fit. It's like all those little subtle messages. And then suddenly, like when I hit sort of puberty, they don't fit the same way. And oh, my hips are slightly too big. And I've got breasts now. And these shirts, like, I'm supposed to grow out of this and I'm

supposed to grow up. And this is just like a pastime that, oh, that was sort of tolerated while I was a little kid. now, you know, shouldn't, you know, it's not something you should be doing. And I feel like that's, like, there's so many different ways that we're told to not be involved in things and something's not normal or not right. And it's right down to those little tiny, like, nuances of, you know, you being the only person playing of your gender or the kit not being quite right or you being worried about putting on white shorts in your period and things like that, like, that just make you feel like this space isn't designed for you to be in. And yeah, I think that has changed.

These euros have, like, completely transformed that. I mean, it's been changing over time, but I feel like this is, like, qualitative moment. You know, you have had this quantitative, like, shift. And then this has been, like, a real qualitative, huge change that has really, like, switched the way people think. And, you know, like, you, my, I've got a little half-brother and little half-sister, Holly and Jack, and there are either side in age of my son, which is kind of fun.

They will get along really well. But Holly is 10, and her and her best mate went to the England Northern Ireland game down in Southampton. She has been to, I think, one Arsenal women's game before, like sort of last season, I think it was, when they played at the Emirates. And she enjoyed that, but this was a different level. And she was there with her girlfriend, not with her, you know, her brother and things like that, who it was, you know, you're sort of almost going for him. This was her going with her friends. They made a banner. it had the name of every single player on it and said come on England.

She's 10 and she absolutely loved it. She was buzzing afterwards. She was so engaged with that. But then also my son was at the opening game at Old Trafford and the final Wembley. And he is a nine-year-old boy. And his experience of football is watching women win and women be successful and women be powerful. And like that's just like a real impactful change on a younger generation that we're probably not even going to see until, you know, a couple. of decades down the line. But I think there is, that shift is taking place in society. Like,

that is happening to teenagers and it's happening to people in their 20s and their 30s. And it's happening to people even older than that who never would have thought of a woman playing football being okay. But you've got, you know, old men walking towards Wembley Way, like just groups of them, like in their 50s, 60s, whatever, in their England shirts, like their men's England shirts, walking towards the grounds with, you know, the Harry Kane on their back and that kind of thing to watch England women play in a major international final. And that is just beyond anything I could have ever imagined from this tournament. I just could not have envisaged it to seep into general consciousness as much as it did.

Which, I think that's what's been impressive. So, yeah, the media coverage has been great. I mean, our coverage at The Guardian, like, was just blew my mind. I was genuinely, like, really quite emotional at the end as to how deep our coverage went and how sincere it was. Like, for example, so the date after the final, there were like 35, 36 pieces of content that went up. And I wrote like two or three of those. And previously it was just me. And then you've got people on news writing about it, people in opinion writing about it, people in reviews writing about it, people in different sections of the paper, all writing about women's football and arranging interviews with players from, you know, the first team and things like that.

And I didn't even know about them until I picked up the paper. and I was like, it's captured people in a way that I could never have imagined, like internally as much as it has externally amongst the public. And like, so I think the media coverage has been really important, but it's just there's been something about the journey of this team through this tournament that shifted things. Because I think like before the tournament, I was like, how deep is this going to go? Because like I walk into Sainsbury's and I see Leah Williamson's face on the, you know,

the scanners that you walk past that tell you if you've stolen something. You know, her face on those, and I'm walking past her. And I know who she is. I guarantee 99% of the people walking through those barriers did not register that was there. So, like, there was this real, like, yes, there was a presence of the tournament, but it hadn't really seeped in. I don't think people knew who those players were or anything like that,

or had even registered that as being there. And then during the tournament, that changed. Like, as they went on, the way the performances went and things, that sort of shifted and it started to seep much more into. general consciousness in a way that I could never have like envisaged it doing, which was just incredible to be amongst and feel the vibe off, I suppose. Vibe is a good word for it because it definitely felt like that was different. And I'm really interested in what you said about how it was a very political thing and always has been. I suppose

that makes perfect sense because in order to play football, they would have to get out of the corsets and the crinoline and the high-heeled shoes. And that was quite controversial. They have to push back against the idea that women, their whims might fall out if they, you know, or like they could damage their femininity or any of the other mad stuff that was going around. And just pushing back constantly about this idea of what it means to be a woman.

And facing a lot of ridicule as well. I've got a quote here from an 1895 and it's a review of a woman's football match and it runs thus. Imagine I'm saying it in a very plummy English accent. I won't try it. The first few minutes were sufficient to show that football by women,

if the British ladies be taken as a criterion is totally out of the question. A footballer requires speed, judgment, skill and pluck. Not one of these four qualities was apparent on Saturday. For the most part, the ladies wandered aimlessly over the field at an ungraceful jog-trot. And that's the thing, like, that is poor journalism, right? Because that is removing all context from the existence of that game

and what it means. And that's like the biggest problem I have nowadays with coverage of women's football and also just the way it exists within society is the context of it is really lost. So the biggest arguments you hear is like, oh, the goalkeepers are rubbish, or it's not technically as good, it's not as fast, it's not as good to watch as the men's. And it's like, well, hang on a second, what is the context of this sport, right? Like, you've got, say, I was going to say a Lionel Messi or a Cristiana Ronaldo,

but just pick any, even like, bottom tier Premier League player or championship player even, they have been groomed for elite football from like the age of seven or eight. Yeah. They have been in academies that have like glistening facilities. They've been plucked out of the parks at like sometimes even as young as like four or five. And then molded in these academies given the most incredible educational like advantages that probably way beyond their means otherwise. Like had elite level coaching from that kind of age have like the best equipment, the best clothing and clothing and. football boots and things like that, and then have been, like, pushed to succeed and be the

best, like, throughout from that age, all the way through to potentially making it as a professional player. And you look at the women's players, and a huge number of those players that lifted that Euro's trophy have, at some point, worked alongside playing football. Like, there's some, the newer generation, a small handful of players in that team, the younger ones that won't have to do that, that won't have to work alongside playing football. But they've not had that elite level academy environment from a young age. They've had some basic academy environment from quite a young age. But that's the newest of the new players. You know, Lucy

Brons working in Domino's Pizza. Jill Scott working a million different jobs to make ends meet while playing, like scraping together, like reliant on their partners, all that kind of stuff. There was that ridiculous tweet a couple of years ago. They got deleted, wasn't it, about well done to our lionesses. Today they go home to be mothers, daughters, sisters, wives, but today there are, or whatever the shit it was. And everyone, they could just hear this inhale of breath of just, everyone, so many women around the world, world is going, you fucking what. Exactly. It's just a complete, a joke that, that just would not happen nowadays. That tweet just would not go out. And that shows a shift in things too. Like, it just would not happen.

And, like, that is a big sign of change. And, like, that context is so lost. And, And you just think, well, you know, actually women's football has a potential to be, no one's arguing it's the same game. No one's arguing it's technically as good or as fast or whatever as the men's game. Like it's a different game. They've got different physicalities. They will develop in different ways in the same way that women's tennis. You know, the serves aren't as powerful women's tennis.

But that doesn't mean it's not as good to watch or as entertaining. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one of Serena Williams' backhand, I'd be completely honest. Completely. But, you know. There's no standing there going, oh, but she's a woman. But they're developed in a different way, right?

Definitely. They are more agile. They have to move around the court a lot quicker to compensate for those things. And so the game develops in a different way that is just as entertaining and just fun. And if anything, the women's game has the potential to also do that.

Because to make up for the physicality, women have to be technically better, like with the ball at their feet and be able to get out of tight situations and that kind of stuff. And the best technical players played with boys when they were kids, You know, you look at like the, I'm thinking of like the Gemma Davis and this world.

She constantly talks about having to trick her way around boys because she wasn't big enough or strong enough. And she is like such a technically gifted footballer and also such a long time. And the game has a potential to develop in that way a lot. But often the thing that gets lost is that context that, like, this is the reason why the game is at the stage it's at. So just watch it and enjoy it for what it is. You can go and watch like non-league men's football in the park down the road

and you're not having a problem with. what you're watching. You don't just watch Rinaldo and Messi. You're happy to watch that kind of level of football because you understand the context of it and what you're watching and you enjoy it because it is football and it is people passionate and having fun and sweating and trying to win and they're the things that people enjoy watching. What is it that is different about women's football that means that you cannot enjoy elite level women's football

in the same way that you enjoy, say, park football. And it is significantly better and more enjoyable. Somebody put up a tweet. I can remember who it was, but it was along the lines of, like, if you absolutely love football, if you really, really love football, but you only enjoy men playing the football, then maybe the problem isn't the game. Exactly. You know, and it is a real blatant sexism.

The fact that the women's teams are so underinvested, the fact that they don't make that even close to the same amount of money, they don't have the same facilities, they don't have anything, they're still winning tournaments. They've sort of done it despite that, haven't they? Not because of investment. Tell me a little bit about what kind of action. activism women's football has been involved in because I think that it's still very political,

especially in things like sexuality and equal rights and things like that. I think that's still very much at the fore of it today. Yeah, there's like different levels of political activism with women's football because like obviously just in and of itself playing football is a like a rebellion against social norms and stuff. Like it can be completely unconscious. It can literally just be a person, like a woman who wants to play football, go in and playing football because she wants to play football, that in and of itself is an act of rebellion and a statement and pushing back against the patriarchy

and what is expected of them. They may consider themselves completely non-political, which I disagree with as an idea anyway because everyone is political, and we're just made to feel disassociated from politics. But, like, they could consider themselves completely non-political, but just a very act of playing sport as a woman is a political act. But then you've obviously got women's

football because it's been so hard for people to play and so difficult for women to play. Like there's been so many battles that have had to be waged that have forced a level of activism beyond what many players I think would necessarily have ever thought of themselves as turning to. So, you know, obviously you've got the US women's national team is the brilliant example in their like massive fight for equal pay that they've won. And, you know, they're just one of a long list of national teams that have fought back against all kind of manner of things, you know, the Ireland's women's national team having to get changed in like airport toilets and stuff and, you know, wearing kits and the men's team and the Nigerian women's

national team not being paid their bonuses after competing at the World Cup and all that kind of stuff, have a sit-in protest. And then there's like all those kind of forms of protest. And then you've got the fact that women's football is a very open and safe space for people to be in, partly because playing football is a overtly political act, even if you're not political. So is watching it in a way. Like you get a more progressive fan. base because they haven't got all those other hangups that and that sort of ingrained like deep-seated idle misogyny that is somehow holding them back from watching what is actually a very enjoyable sport to watch. So you've already got like a more active like captive fan base.

And then yeah, like is, you know, a great place to be. And there's a lot of openly out gay players like obviously significantly more than the men's game. That's not hard because there's barely any. But, you know, there are, that have reached a point where they don't. even come out anymore. They don't need to. They just sort of, you know, go public in their relationships. You know, they don't have to announce it. You know, you look at Viviana Medema and Beth Mead, you know, they both play for Arsenal. One plays the Dutch national women's team. The other is England's hero this summer, top scorer, golden ball winner. And, you know, they're both in relationships with other players, Lisa Evans, Arsenal, and Daniel

Van Zonker, Beth Mead was in a relationship with the Netherlands as well. And, you know, split up with those partners, you know, within the last year. And in this tournament, there's photos of Viviana Miedema at games in a Beth Mead's shirt, you know, not trying to hide, not trying to mask a relationship or a sexuality or anything like that, just being there as a fan supporting her girlfriend days after she's been knocked out of the tournament herself in an England shirt. And then, you know, pictures of them with a trophy afterwards and things like that. And there's no, there's no moment. There's no moment where Viviana Mirdama announced that she was gay.

there's no moment where Beth Mead has announced that she was gay. They just are. They just exist and they be and like no one picks up on it negatively. Like no one is homophobic about it. I mean, I'm sure there are some trolls online that are. But like overwhelmingly, it's a really like safe, embracing like place to be. And that's like a really nice aspect of women's football is that it is still a really welcoming environment. and there is this ethos within it that allows women to just, you know, be whoever they are to a certain extent.

And, you know, you've got players that are out, you've got players that aren't out. But coming out isn't even really a thing anymore, which is what for me is the nicest part. It's not like they have to do a big announcement anymore. They just exist in relationships. It's so true. I see that in the students that I teach all the time. It's like that's how much the understanding around sexuality and normalization and inclusion has done already. You can see it coming through.

An example I had recently, remember when Rebel Wilson had to disclose a sexuality for that, yeah. Newspaper was going to run the story. The students I was talking to about it were genuinely perplexed about why that was a story. Like they couldn't get their head around that. Why would somebody need to print that? Like it's, why would you blackmail somebody? And I was like, my God, wow, that is a new generation.

It's just to them, it's not even like, I mean, you know, not everyone you can't generalise. But there's, I've noticed that as well of just. you don't need to announce it, you just kind of are. And I'm, no. It's not newsworthy, is it? They're just footballers. They have families. They have relationships.

And that's just what it is. And I think that's part of the problem with men's football, isn't it? It's like, it's become such a thing. There must be gay players. And they need to come out and they need to announce it. Find the gay players, exactly. And like, there's so much pressure on players that do, you know, kind of step forward. And obviously we had the first two do that in Australia and here.

Very, very young players do it. and feel, you know, really embraced and welcomed. But it's, like, headline hitting, they're going to get abuse. They clearly feel so much more happier in themselves, but they really have to, like, embrace the idea that they are going to be judged in the context of their sexuality and everything they do, right? Like, that is the reality for any men's player that comes out,

and that just doesn't exist on women's football. And, like, you know, often people talk about, oh, you know, oh yeah we want women's game to become like the men's game become as big and as commercially successful as men's football and blah blah and like i hate that narrative because there's so much that men's football could learn from women's football and one of them is the sort of type of space it creates and the responsibility it feels to create a safe space as well like football's a very very powerful tool right like you ask some people in some countries around the world who they trust more, their football team or their government, and they're going to say their football team,

right? Like, clubs are incredibly powerful and they've got huge ability to influence the thoughts and feelings of their fan bases. And they don't use that. And I think that women's football does use that a little bit more, not a huge extent more, but it does use its power to push progressive causes to a certain extent. And players do recognize their role in helping develop society and that it is a powerful tool and that they can use it and that's the legacy of the way that women's football has been built sort of running through their veins in that way and then you know very much a recognition you're lea williamson great interview on the radio yesterday where they have one of first england players on the phone with her and leah is saying you know i'm standing on your shoulders without you

i wouldn't be here and it's like very very moving interview and like that recognition at like an identification with everyone that's come before in growing this a wonderful game is still there. It's still very much embedded in the players today. And that, like, in turn, leads to these players feeling like they have a responsibility to use this game for good and to improve things for women and girls and the relationships they have with their bodies and their right to play sport and, you know, all of the impacts of that in different areas of their lives in a way that you don't have in the men's game. And that, yeah, a huge lesson that the men's game could learn from the women's is like that adopting that kind of attitude

towards the role that it can play in society and the environment that it can be supportive of and all of that kind of stuff. Susie, you have been incredible to talk to, but I don't think I can take it to extra time already, but I want to keep going, you've properly inspired me. I'm just like, yeah, I'm going to be there at the matches and I want to know more about it, and it's so important. But if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find? So I write for The Guardian. So obviously all over The Guardian and regularly in print and article was most days and things like that. I've got to book out a women's game, which is like a sort of social political history of women's football,

which is a lot of what we've ended up talking about. And yeah, I'm on Twitter. So at Susie Rack. And people can, I'm like quite engaging. I like to dip into arguments and like debates and stuff. So, yeah, people can always come and find me there for a chat. But yeah. Thank you so much.

You have been an absolute trait to talk to. No, thanks for having me. It's been a lot of fun. Thanks again for joining me on this episode of Betwixt the Sheets. And thank you so much to Suzanne for joining me and sharing your knowledge and research and passion for the beautiful game. If you like what you've heard, please don't forget to like, review and subscribe. Honestly, write as a review, it really helps the podcast.

We've got loads of other great episodes out for you to listen to, including one on bras, one on Rasputin, one on sex robots. So please do check them all out. I'll see you next time. This podcast included music by Epidemic Sound.