Beyond the Verse - Shakespeare's Sonnets: The Fair Youth and The Dark Lady

Episode Date: September 25, 2024

In this week’s episode of “Beyond the Verse,” the official podcast of PoemAnalysis.com and Poetry+, Maiya and Joe delve into the depth and complexity of William Shakespeare's sonnets. Beginning with a reading of 'Sonnet 18', they explore the characterization of the Fair Youth and the Dark Lady, the sonnet form, and Shakespeare's lasting legacy. The hosts delve into the technical aspects of Shakespeare's sonnets, such as their 14-line structure and iambic pentameter, and discuss how these structural elements contribute to the thematic richness and emotional depth of the poems. The discussion also touches on the often contrasting depictions of the Fair Youth and the Dark Lady, highlighting how these characters embody Shakespeare's exploration of beauty, love, and betrayal.Furthermore, they discuss the integration of the sonnets with Shakespeare’s plays and the portrayal of age-old tropes in both, providing a richer understanding of his work. The episode wraps up by discussing the modern reverberations of Shakespeare’s influence found in contemporary poetry, particularly in works like Jason Allen-Paisant's ‘Ringing Othello,’ and the continued relevance of the sonnet form.Get exclusive PDFs on William Shakespeare and his sonnets, available to Poetry+ users:All Shakespeare Poems, analyzed with:Full PDF GuidesPoetry Snapshot PDFsPoem Printable PDFsWith Meter SyllablesWith Rhyme SchemeWith Both Meter and RhymeFor more insights into William Shakespeare, visit PoemAnalysis.com, where you can explore a wide range of analyzed poems, with thousands of PDFs, resources in our extensive PDF Learning Library, and more - see our William Shakespeare PDF Guide.Tune in and Discover:The enduring significance of Shakespeare's sonnetsAn exploration of the Fair Youth and the Dark LadyShakespeare’s poetic legacy and influence on modern interpretationsThe symbolism of nature and its connection to loveSend us a textSupport the showAs always, for the ultimate poetry experience, join Poetry+ and explore all things poetry at PoemAnalysis.com.

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? Thou art more lovely and more temperate. Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May, and summer's lease hath all too short a date. Welcome to Beyond the Verse, a poetry podcast brought to you by pomeanalysis.com and poetry plus. I'm Maya and I'm here with my co-host, Joe. thank you so much for that reading at the start there. Today we're going to be talking about

Shakespeare's sonnets. We'll be discussing the characterisation of the Fair Youth and the Dark Lady two characters that exist very strongly within the universe of Shakespeare's sonnets, the importance of the sonnet form and Shakespeare's enduring legacy. Now, Joe, would you like to tell us a little bit more about Shakespeare where he is at this particular moment? Yeah, thanks, Maya. So I'm sure many of our listeners have come into this podcast with a really clear sense of who Shakespeare is and the kind of space he occupies in the literary tradition. And one of the things I'm really looking forward to discussing with you, Myra, is how much of that legacy is kind of accurate, how much of it is fair, and, you know, maybe unpicking some of the elements of that have been

misinterpreted or perhaps of acquired meanings that aren't strictly rooted in the literature itself over time. But in terms of today's episode, we're going to be focusing on those 154 sonnets, first published in 1609 in the first quarter. And really important just to understand who Shakespeare was at this period in his career. So relatively late in Shakespeare's career, he actually died just seven years later in 1616. But by this point, Shakespeare is a huge figure. I mean, the majority of the plays that our listeners will be aware of, the kind of, you know, the Othello's, the King Lears, the Macbeth's, Julius Caesar, 12th Knight, Hamlet. These had been published. These had been performed prior to the publication of these sonnets in 1609. So he's already an enormous

figure. In terms of his poetic legacy, there had been poems published as part of the plays and featured in some of his plays, and we're going to discuss that later on. And some of his poems had been published prior to 609, but really the bulk of his poetic canon is published in this one big book, 609, we're going to be discussing that today. And many of our listeners will have a sense of what sonnets are and kind of what they mean. But Maya, why don't you tell us a little bit more about the sonnet as a form? So to start off very technically, Shakespeare's sonnets typically are 14 lines long. They're written in iambic pentameter, which is a 10-syllable line broken up by an unstressed and a stressed repetition. They're alternately rhymed, but they end

with a couplet. And it usually stands that the couplet offers a summary of the poem. So it's a very condensed form and you can take a sonnet on its own or in conversation with others, but they often offer one central idea. A Shakespearean sonnet is just one form of a sonnet. We also have a patrarchan sonnet that we might get into a little bit later. Now, Shakespeare wrote 154 sonnets. I find that incredible. They are a form that is so particular that I think it's a real talent to be able to write that way. Now, Joe, would you like to tell us a little bit about how that comes across? You know, Shakespeare talks about love and relationships and betrayal. And he He summarises these very big themes in what are effectively quite short poems.

Yeah, definitely. And I think you're absolutely right when you talk about the particular nature of the form. And the fact that we have 154 of them together does allow for that dialogue between the poems. And I think Shakespeare is obviously aware of that. Now, we're going to talk later on a little bit about when exactly these sonnets were written and what their intention was at the time he wrote them. But obviously at the point where they're getting ready for publications is not a posthumous publication. Shakespeare was alive, so obviously he had some kind of authorial oversight.

I think there is definitely confidence knowing that these poems are largely going to be read in relation to one another. So even though you can have standalone moments within sonnets, I think Shakespeare was confident that the narrative that runs through this entire collection would kind of stand up to scrutiny because you get not just one sonnet, which as you said, is a relatively short space of time in which to make your point, you have many. But I think just on that notion of a central thread, and you mentioned Petrarch, and I think it's really important just to understand for listeners that this is not a form that he invented. The form actually dates back to the 12th century in Italy. And as you've mentioned, is sort of mastered by the Italian poet Petrarch in the 14th century. And one of the things I think that we're going to talk about a little bit later on is the way in which shake this sonnets, we might look at them as having kind of this one central theme of love. But actually, they engage with the thematic material in a far more disparate. manner than somebody like Petrarch. Petrarch's sonnets were far more consistent thematically and a lot more consistent in terms of their subject matter. They dealt with this kind of one female figure known as Laura, whereas as we're going to discuss at great length, the one of the most enduringly powerful things about Shakespeare sonnets is these multiple characters and these characters that kind of inspire conflict within the narrator.

And I think that's kind of one of the key threads for these 154 sonnets that we're going to discuss, that sense of tension that arises from what is effectively a a love triangle. And that's one of the things I think is really important to touch on in the fact that there are 154 sonnets. Generally, it's agreed that Sonnet 1 to Sonnet 126 are about this fair youth character and from 127 onwards, with a few exceptions, are about the dark lady figure. Now, there's so much debate in popular culture about who these figures were, what they represented. And the characterisation that Shakespeare makes throughout these poems is one that I think is actually very impressive. I think he really hits home with how these characters are represented by their qualities and vice versa.

Now, Joe, would you like to start us off on the lovely poem that you read at the start, Sonnet 18? Yeah, so this is obviously one of the most famous poems ever written and many of our listeners will already be familiar with it. As you mentioned, Sonnet 18, one of the first 126, so this is dedicated to the fair youth. And I think one of the things about it that is so enduringly powerful is the way in which Shakespeare uses nature, talks about the summer's day. The thing that really stands out to me is the ephemeral nature of that comparison. The idea of the summer's day is being one of those things, especially for our UK listeners, that is a kind of fleeting moment. It so rarely appears that the sun bursts through from the clouds and you get the warmth of that moment. Now, what Shakespeare is doing there is he's using that brevity.

He's using that fleeting nature of the warmth of summer to consider the beauty of this fair youth. And that's one of the things that we're going to talk about later on as well. The way in which the fair youth is really heightened and elevated in Shakespeare's depiction of him. That stands in sharp contrast to the Dark Lady, who in many ways is a far more kind of of base portrayal, you know, someone who doesn't subscribe to sort of traditional metrics of beauty or desirability. Now, Maya, I'd love to get your thoughts on the fair youth in this poem, but other poems as well. And what is it about the description of him that you find compelling or moving? One of the things that always stands out to me, especially in Sonnet 18, this is a poem

of contrast fundamentally. You have eternity versus decline. You have fairness versus versus the rough winds that shake the buds of May. You have this poem that is so incredibly complex. And I find it very uplifting as a poem that actually tends to lean towards addressing the fragility of summer and the passing of time. The word eternal is repeated throughout this poem. And the couplet that I think is probably one of the most powerful is, so long as men can breathe or eyes can see, so long lives this and this gives life to thee.

You have this figure who is not just existing as a beauty or someone who is upheld as this incredible figure, but you have someone who is actually drawing life from everyone and everything around them. I think that adds to the power of the fair youth character. And also, it really sets up, as you move through the next, what, 100 poems, 100 sonnets, that you have this character that occupies this huge space. What do you think? No, definitely. I mean, I'd like to just focus on that word temperate in the second line for a moment.

It's a word that's always surprised me. I remember reading it for the first time as a teenager and finding that a really strange word. Because I think, like many of our listeners, we encounter Shakespeare with a set of expectations, probably more than any other writer in the English language, for sure. we expect certain things to find and we think of Shakespeare as being a great love poet and if we think about the way that love is often portrayed in art there is a sense of intensity normally

so that word tempera I always find kind of subverts my expectations at the poem because it's all about moderation it's all about somebody that is not loose with their emotions not loose with their beauty somebody that is modest despite their physical attractiveness and again there is a sense here that Shakespeare is setting up for his portrayal of the dark lady in which her kind of overt sexuality

is going to be something that actually is weaponised against her. But just before I hand back to Maya, I think that final coupler is so fascinating with regard to its portrayal of what beauty is because we think of beauty as something that is emanated from the beautiful person. Whereas you're absolutely right,

Shakespeare flips that on its head. And in this poem, the beauty, the kind of energy, the vitality of the fair you, is actually drawn in from those around him. It's almost as though the relationship between the beautiful person and those who observe them is symbiotic. It's a really complex portrayal of the viewer and the views, the observer and the observed.

But I'd love to hand back to you, Ma. I think that sense of temperance in the poem is really important, and it's portrayed even further by the darling buds of May. Shakespeare is not describing the fair youth as a flower, something that has already given life and is in its most, most beautiful state. You almost have this feeling that you're observing potential. And that's how I feel about a lot of the sonnets that are about the fair youth is that the fair youth is not beautiful because they are exquisite and already completely open and present. But it's almost the secretive

nature of that fair youth in Shakespeare, who is often construed as the speaker, but also may not be, I'm sure we'll touch on that later, is witnessing the potential of someone who is almost a little bit withdrawn from the world of the narrating voice. And one of the things I really like about this poem is that, as you say, Shakespeare doesn't necessarily fall on the traditions of value that I think a lot of poets at the time would have ascribed to. I really like that line. Sometimes too hot, the eye of heaven shines and often is his gold complexion dimmed. Obviously, in one sense, yes, this is him talking about the sun being covered by the clouds. But also, we cannot forget that at the time that Shakespeare's writing,

you are looking at kind of trade. And gold is one of those things that has always, throughout poetry for thousands of years, been had worth ascribed to it. Shakespeare in this poem is almost reducing gold to something that can be tarnished and can be forgotten and can be lost. Yeah, I'd just love to go back to the point you were making about buds and about potential. And Now, it's one of the things about these sonnets that I find really fascinating. And actually, as we've said, this is Sonnet 18. So this is the first sonnet that is not regarded as being in the group known as the pro-creation sonnets, which is 1 to 17.

And they're called that because Shakespeare is imploring the fair youth to reproduce, to go out, to marry, and to have children. Now, that might seem like a strange thing to do to somebody that you're kind of perhaps in love with. But Shakespeare is interested in the beauty. And Shakespeare thinks that this fair youth must have children. because he is so beautiful, that beauty needs to be passed on and needs to endure. And I just find that really fascinating, not only because of it's sort of the intensity of that

feeling. It's a very strange thing to yearn for in somebody else. It plays into a wider perception around these sonnets. I think a lot of listeners simply don't know that the vast majority of these are dedicated to a man, not to a woman. And one of the things that I find really interesting about that is that valuing somebody for their potential to procreate is is kind of a trope that has almost exclusively been leveled at women, kind of age-old stereotypes about associating the female form with some kind of mother nature figure, the idea of the life giver, the idea of the nurturer.

And to see that kind of subverted and to have a male figure be fixated on another male figure's ability to procreate, I find to be one of the many things about this collection, that is subversive, that is transgressive, and it is kind of deeply unusual because those are expectations and images that we almost always see apply to female figures in poetry.

It's really interesting that you bring up that these first few poems are so focused on being able to procreate or being scared of time sort of ravaging the beauty of that fair youth. I'm just looking at Sonnet 19 now as well and the opening line, devouring time, blunt thou the lion's paws.

The real menacing feeling that a reader gets from the encroaching sense of time on this beautiful person, this loving person, is a really unique position to be in, I think, for especially poetry of this time. When you're looking at an era in which age and wisdom feed into one another,

often age is applauded, especially in men, the preservation, I think, adds to this sense of cocooning into oneself and remaining exactly as you are. It's almost as if Shakespeare is trying to preserve this person's beauty. And actually in Sonnet 19, the closing coupler, and as I said earlier in the podcast, the couplet often summarizes the poem's full intention. The closing couplet for this is, do thy worst old time despite thy wrong, my love shall in my verse ever live young.

Yeah, I was going to pick up on that same coupler. And I think after spending 17 sonnets imploring somebody to have children so they're can be preserved, there is almost a sense in 19 that Shakespeare is saying, well, if you won't do it, I will. I will preserve that beauty. I will enshrine it forevermore. And that I will do it in a way that is far more effective. Because obviously, there's no guarantee necessarily that because a beautiful person has children, that child will be beautiful. And then, even if they are, you're left with the same problem, because they will then have to have children. Whereas what Shakespeare is doing in these poems is truly defying time, no matter how many centuries have passed. As long as this poem survives, so does the beauty of those described in it. And then I'm going to do a bit of a leap here to 116, which is actually one of my favourite sonnets from the collection. I'll just read a few lines. Love is not love which alters when it alteration finds or bends with the remover to remove. Oh, no, it is an ever fixed mark that looks on tempests and is never shaken. And aside from what I'm sure many Shakespeare enthusiasts will see as that kind of allusion to the tempest,

I think once again here we have beauty set in opposition to the natural world. Now, earlier on, we have that allusion to summer and to the darling buds of May, whereas here we have a very violent portrayal of a natural occurrence, a tempest, a storm. But Shakespeare is highlighting the ability that love can be kind of a fixed point in relation to a changing world. We think about what a storm is. It's a kind of a manifestation of chaos, change, destruction. The idea that love can kind of stand almost as a North Star in opposition to that kind of chaotic nature, I think is one of the ways in which Shakespeare engages with the theme of love. I mean, the idea that you can use all of nature, he's not just drawing on one simple image of a summer's day.

I think that really speaks to Shakespeare's range in this collection. I think the idea of being able to draw upon not just one natural image, but many over the course of these poems. I mean, it's an incredible exercise in sort of poetic, flexibility. The idea that you can talk about very similar themes in so many different poems and yet still 116 sonnets in come up with an image as original as that one and as enduringly powerful as that one, I think, is remarkable. That's one of the things I'd actually really like to discuss in this episode is that I think a lot of people view the sonnet form as quite binding. You know, you have certain rules to ascribe to, certain meter to hit, certain rhymes to create. And I really find that with Shakespeare's sonnets, there's a real range and a real versatility from the poet in that, you know, he goes from discussing procreation and youth and beauty to the ravages of time to then discussing, as we will touch on later in the podcast, this dark lady figure. So Shakespeare's range consistently impresses me here.

And I think it's a real shame that in education, you really don't touch too much on his poems. And I think they do make his plays richer for understanding the versatility that he has, to be honest. No, I completely agree. And I think when we do encounter his poems in the education system, and generally speaking in the UK, that tends to be kind of around the age of 14, 15, 16, you might study a Shakespeare sonnet or a couple of Shakespeare sonnets. And what you really lose there is that sense of range, because you might look at those sonnets. and think, well, I've read a couple. I know they're all vaguely related to the theme of love. And you might extrapolate from that it's quite repetitive

or it doesn't draw upon original images or it doesn't engage with other themes. And as I mentioned earlier on, we might look at Shakespeare's sonnets as being broadly love poems, but compared to the likes of Petrarch, these are actually thematically incredibly diverse. Because as we mentioned, they're also talking about jealousy and betrayal. There's actually eight poems in the middle

that are generally regarded as being more interested in a third character, which we haven't mentioned yet called the rival poet, where actually Shakespeare is perhaps airing some dirty laundry or perhaps trying to be a little bit dismissive of his poetic rivals. So there's real range in these poems. And I think it's a great tragedy in many ways, if you'll pardon that poor bit of wordplay, that Shakespeare in the British education system in particular

kind of acquires a little bit of a bad reputation. And maybe we'll talk about that a little bit later on. I'm sure our listeners have a much more positive view of Shakespeare, otherwise they wouldn't be listening to this episode. Absolutely. And I applaud any poet who can write as many sonnets as Shakespeare did. I think it's a truly fantastic exercise in the versatility of a form because it would be very easy for any poet to follow in Petrarch's footsteps, for example, and box a sonnet into a love poem, or box a love poem into a sonnet as it were, to actually look at the very complex and slightly darker themes. that Shakespeare brings into his sonnets, while still utilising a form that is so restrictive, is a really interesting take, I think. And I must admit, I had that same experience at school.

You know, I love poetry and I, you know, I wouldn't be doing this podcast with you if I didn't love poetry. But Shakespeare does have a very bad rep. And I think the way that you're introduced to Shakespeare is often you're unwilling to learn anyway because you're young, you're at school, you're not taught in the most interesting way. But I find myself pretty consistently surprised by these sonnets, I think. I completely agree. I mean, I did Shakespeare at school like you. I did Shakespeare a little bit in my undergraduate degree.

But it's really post-university that I've really come around to sort of the power of these sonnets. It's worth acknowledging the fact that for many, Shakespeare is the writer of sonnets, in the same way that kind of Monet is the impressionist or I don't know, Dali is the surrealist. I mean, when you embody an entire form or movement in a single person, people are going to lose interest because it's almost how do you get into that? How do you access the individual poems when this figure looms so large? I'm always curious as to why Shakespeare attracts the flack he kind of does. And I think on one level, it's the way that Shakespeare has taught both the poems and the plays. I think it tends to come across as quite stifling and quite stuffy for sort of teenage readers

when actually the richness of those texts often lies in performance. So I would like to see Shakespeare performed a lot more rather than just read on the page. But I also wonder, and I'd love to get your thoughts on this, whether or not Shakespeare becomes a kind of conduit for people's broader frustrations with literature. If you don't like literature, the easiest name to pull out as kind of a villain that turned you off would be Shakespeare. It's old-fashioned, it's several hundred years old, it's a name that everybody knows. What do you think about that? I couldn't agree more.

I think Shakespeare is very often the villain of your English literature course. And actually, one of the criticisms that I would maybe level is that it's very easy, because of Shakespeare's presence in the canon, to assume that Shakespeare is the base level of poetry or plays and should be easy. But Shakespeare's language occupies somewhere between Middle English from the 13,400s, old English, and is still somewhat modern. And I find that a lot of students, particularly, who approach Shakespeare for the first time, aren't necessarily taught how to interpret the language, first and foremost. And because the language seems more complex, it's so much harder to carry across a theme. As soon as you understand the language and the base interactions, the themes carry through so much more strongly. And I would absolutely argue that for anyone who does put a little bit of time into Shakespeare

and really invests, even in one play in a series of poems, a series of sonnet, if you invest that time and you come to understand the way that Shakespeare writes, you're going to be so much richer for it. And actually, you know, it's complicated. It is complex. The way that he writes is applauded for a reason. It can be very hard to just have the book placed in front of you and go, okay, read this because it's brilliant. You know, obviously the people that are teaching you have often read this themselves and had to understand it and maybe have come to appreciate it later in life. So I think Shakespeare, his bad rep more often than not comes from a sense of misunderstanding. And you have to really try. And it's a real shame, I think, in educational establishments that maybe Shakespeare isn't pushed in the correct way or is almost deemed to be an easy fallback option when his writing is so complex. I don't know what you think about that. I really concur with what you're saying about changing the way that Shakespeare is introduced,

especially because as with any other walk of life, your first impression really sticks. And if your first impression of Shakespeare is of something inaccessible, sort of, dry, old-fashioned, complicated, then you might not be willing to return to it with an open mind. And I think, I mean, like I said, many of our listeners today will be fans of Shakespeare because they're seeking out this episode. But what I would really implore is, if anybody is listening to this out of any sense of obligation, because you have to study Shakespeare, give him his time because he deserves it. Seek out different plays that you haven't read before. You know, go on YouTube and look at people reading the sonnets, look at people reading,

some of the soliloquies, you know, great the Thespian actors, because the power of his words is strongest when they're not on the page, when they're being read, when they're being performed by really good readers and the lesbian actors. And I think one of the best examples of this

is I was learning Romeo and Juliet when I was doing my GCSEs, I think it was. And the first port of call was Baz Luhrmann's Romeo and Juliet, the film, which fantastic film for listeners who haven't seen it, and would massively recommend, but it makes Shakespeare so accessible in a film format. Let's not forget that Shakespeare's plays were meant to be performed. And I think we'd be remiss to say that,

especially for a playwright who is so intent on having their work performed, it would be silly to assume that, you know, the poems have to stay on the page, even if they are compiled into an 154 page booklet. It's a beautiful way to start to understand. and poetry, I think especially for these sonnets and the relationship between them, you could ask a friend to read them to you. You could read them out loud yourself. And I think it really creates a much stronger sense of self within each one of these sonnets. Definitely. And I'm really glad you mentioned the Bazelom and Romeo and Juliet version because it's one that I really enjoy. And I think one of the things about that film in particular that I think we can learn

lessons from more broadly with Shakespeare is that film uses the original Shakespearean script, The language is unchanged, even though the setting, even though the time period is completely different, right? And what that shows you is you don't need to change the vowels and the thighs in order to make Shakespeare feel fresh and exciting. Now, granted, having pistols and Hawaiian shirts helps, but what that film really shows is that you can take exactly the same word and make them feel vibrant and exciting for modern audiences. So anyone who hasn't seen that version, I would very much implore them to go and seek it out. But it's one of the many ways in which Shakespeare permeates modern culture in ways that a lot of us aren't even aware of. I mean, there are tons of films that you wouldn't know were based on Shakespearean plays that are 10 things I hate about you, very popular film based on The Taming of the Shrew. The Lion King is a retelling of Hamlet.

You know, there are countless examples of Shakespearean stories that are manifest in the modern world, sometimes using the language as in the case of Baz Luhrmann, other times just using the characters and the plot devices. But his impact is just, it's so, so strong to this day. It permeates almost every type of artistic production. And we're going to talk about his legacy a little bit more after the break. So for anyone who's listening to our episode today and wants to know a little bit more about Shakespeare and his 154 sonnets, we have every single sonnet laid out on poem. analysis.com. So go to the site to explore everything we're talking about today and more.

Now, this one is for Poetry Plus members only. If you have a Poetry Plus membership, you will have unparalleled access to the Poem Principle PDFs that offer specialist analysis on everything from Mehta to Rhymeski. So sign up now for a Poetry Plus membership at Poemanalysis.com. Welcome back to Beyond the Verse and in this second half of our Shakespeare Sonnets episode, we're going to be discussing The Dark Lady, a fascinating figure from the Sonic Collection who features prominently in Sonnet's 127 to 152. So, Maya, I'm going to hand over to you. Do you want to tell us a little bit about the Dark Lady in broad terms and sort of the way

she's portrayed? So throughout Shakespeare's Sonets, the Dark Lady is often portrayed as really the antithesis to the fair youth. It is suggested that they are embroiled in. in somewhat of a scandalous relationship. It's something that the speaker watches from the sidelines, but is also intimately involved with. The Dark Lady represents all of the things that the fair youth isn't.

The Dark Lady is almost the personification of that tempestuous storm. She is highly sexualized. She is often portrayed as moody, dark. And the poet really explores the personification of what is anger and betrayal and the struggles that accompany that fair love that we've seen before, where the fair youth is quite light and bright, the dark lady, offers more of a heaviness, a darkness, and much more complicated feelings towards the struggles of love, let's say. And the sonnet I'd like to start with that makes a perfect example of this is actually

sonnet 130. It is not the first sonnet that references the dark lady, but it does. does go very in-depth into actually what she looks like. And I think it's a great place to start to explore what her looks represent. My mistress's eyes and nothing like the sun is the opening line of Sonnet 130. Now, given we explored Sonnet 18 in the previous half of the podcast and how important the sun is to the representation of the fair youth, to offer the dark lady as a complete contrast is a really interesting choice from Shakespeare. And I'd love to know what you think about it, Joe.

Absolutely. I think one of the things looking back at this series of sonnets that stands out really strongly is the way in which Shakespeare presents these two as kind of a dichotomy, right? Everything that the fair youth has and is contrasted and juxtaposed by the presentation of the dark lady. And I think, again, in this love triangle of sorts, if we consider the speaker to be sort of in love with the fair youth and then angry that the dark lady steals them. And again, we don't want to go too much into the narrative of that because there's There's been a lot sort of written and disputed about the real-life inspiration for these characters, and perhaps we'll talk about that later on in the episode. But I think it's interesting that this lady of Shakespeare's love poems is not particularly young, not particularly beautiful, and there's certainly not being presented as aristocratic or in any way kind of desirable socially. And what we have there is, like I said, what feels to me a slightly archetypal character in terms of being the opposite of the fair youth.

Everything that I very much get the sense that this poem and this collection is built from the fair youth outwards that Shakespeare starts with this image of this young man that he wants to really capture and that when necessary to inject tension into these sonnets, he creates

the figure that is sort of naturally the opposite of that figure. I don't see her particularly as three-dimensional. But I think it is really interesting to see this many sonnets about somebody that doesn't subscribe to many of the expectations of female beauty. I think I've got two things to say on that, really,

which is I couldn't agree more with offering her as a figure that actually intensifies the fair youth. I think especially with the way that Shakespeare has laid these sonnets out, given that the first half are all due to the fair youth, as you then move through this collection, the darkness that she does offer serves to, to almost make that fair youth that much more fairer. I think that's the first point I'd like to touch on.

But secondly, it's interesting that you say that you don't find her particularly complex, and I would agree with you. But I think what I find really troubling with, especially Sonnet 130, is that it's actually a very negative depiction of this woman. And I mean, to be very candid, he says that her breath stinks. He says that he sees no roses in her. cheeks, she's pale. He says that her voice isn't as pleasing as music and yet he loves to hear her speak. I think what Shakespeare does as a poet here is really fascinating because a lot of work,

I think across the board really, offers love as something that is pure and untainted. And here, the love that Shakespeare's speaker has for the Dark Lady almost serves in spite of all of those things, it shows that you don't have to have this pure and untainted love. And I think it really speaks in contrast to the innocence that the fair youth is portrayed with, where because the fair youth is so perfect and so unattainable, the love that we first see is one that is quite naive and quite innocent, but the experience that you gain as you walk through this collection and you explore the relationship that the speaker has with the dark lady, you begin to understand that the speaker's view of love is a lot more complex and actually due far more to their

personal relationship to these people as opposed to the way that they look. They're two complete opposites and yet the way that they are discussed, although yes, different in the way that the dark lady is sexualized and the way the fair youth is idolized. It's all rooted from the same person feeling the same love for these people. I think that's a really astute point. and I think just going back to my comment about me not finding the depiction of the dark laid to be particularly three-dimensional. I don't find the depiction of the fair youth to be particularly three-dimensional either. I think what the tension between these two portrayals does is it gives you a really accurate portrayal of what it feels like to be in this sort of twisted

love triangle because we all have a tendency to elevate the people we admire and to diminish the people we find frustrating. And what we find in these poems, is that the fair youth cannot possibly be as dillet and perfect and beautiful as he is portrayed to be. And the dark lady, whilst I'm sure her breath probably wasn't great, that was hardly a defining quality in Jacoby and England, right? I don't think many people had particularly good breath. But the experience of being the speaker and being caught between these two dichotomies speaks to our innate willingness to ignore the flaws in the people we admire and to accentuate the flaws in the people that we find are sort of our adversaries. And I think that

That's the bit that hidden between these two slightly unrealistic characters is the reality, because that's what we do to people in our own heads. I actually think Sonnet 141 does a really great job of really exploring that lack of depth, in the sense that the speaker is admitting that the poems they're writing, the way that they're expressing their emotion is nothing to do with the person that they are talking about and everything to do with themselves or everything to do with their own personal intention. and feelings. And I really love the opening to this poem. It says, in faith, I do not love thee with mine eyes, for they and thee a thousand errors note, but tis my heart that loves what they

despise, who in despite of you is pleased to dote. I think that's such a beautiful way of saying, you know, regardless of the way that you look and the way that you act, I have created this vision for myself. I have created my feelings and I am the only one who will understand the reasons I do things. And for a poem that is so really introverted, I think it does a really great job of being a love poem. And I think, I mean, look, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and we often sort of use that term or that phrase lazily. But if we really think about what that means is the poet or the narrator or the speaker and we can talk later on about whether we think they're the same person or not, it's about them. It's about their feelings that they are projecting and they're

finding the evidence to justify their feelings. They really admire the fair youth and so they find the qualities in him that they can elevate to fit that feeling rather than viewing them objectively and drawing conclusions from that. And that's the way that we all do things. Nobody is objective in the way that we observe other people. We have expectations. So I think one of the things I really enjoy about these sonnets is how unashamably subjective they are. There is no attempt to suggest, even within the poems, that these are objective portrayals of real people. And that's why I find some of the subsequent attempts to fit the dark lady or the fair youth onto real life figures to be so kind of bizarre, because Shakespeare's almost admitting within the sonnets that these aren't really

objective portrayals of people. They're not accurate depictions of real people. They're kind of avatars for the way that he feels about figures in his life that may or may not have existed. I'd be really interested to know your thoughts as well on how the poems and the sonnets interplay with Shakespeare's plays. Because I've always found that when I read these sonnets, I almost see them as quite small character studies in a sense. And the poems, especially about the dark lady where Shakespeare is exploring, you know, feeling like his love for the Dark Lady is a sickness, that I can see written all over a play like Romeo and Juliet where love is a plague, something that you can't get rid of, or in Othello where anger and jealousy just drives

you mad. So I always see these tiny little poems by comparison as almost a microcosm of those larger character studies. I think it's a really interesting point. I think it touches on something maybe we were talking about before we started recording, which is the relationship between the sonnets and the plays. I mean, as I said at the top of the episode, this Carto has released relatively late in Shakespeare's career. The vast majority of his sort of defining works have been performed or published by this stage. And what's really interesting is the fact that he had used sonnets in some of his plays, but he kind of used them in a way that they're kind of slightly more trivial. I mean, when you're using a sonnet as part of a wider narrative on stage,

inevitably that sonnet is going to be more about driving the action of the play forwards than it is going to be about the quality of the sonnet as a standalone piece. So the sonnets, for example, that appear in Romeo and Juliet are very much plot devices. They're meant to drive the audience to a particular viewpoint. And I wonder almost whether writing those sonnet for the plays had given him kind of a taste for the form and whether or not 154 are kind of him really leaning in to something that he had previously only used in his plays to achieve a particular effect, almost thinking, well, I've enjoyed writing these sonnets. I want to now dedicate some time to doing them properly

almost, because there's no denying the sonnets in this collection have a lot more kind of depth and are a lot more introspective and thoughtful than some of the ones, for example, that appear in Romeo and Juliet. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I know we discussed this before the podcast, but I can so imagine that these poems were written in a little offhand notebook and maybe compiled later, I'm sure there were probably far more than 154. If these were, you know, writing exercises or pieces of inspiration, then I can so picture Shakespeare with his little notebook of poems aside from these larger studied plays. The one thing I think would be a very interesting topic for us to talk about, Joe, is within literary culture, there's a real

magna, I think, especially with these sonnets, to figure out who the fair youth was and who the dark lady was. I personally have always seen them more as a personification of ideals. Do you think they were people? Do you think that they were just representations? What are your thoughts on his creation? It's a fascinating question. It's not one that I have a definitive answer for, but what I would implore listeners to do, if you are interested in kind of the many theories about who inspired which figure, then, you know, have fun on the internet for half an hour because there's a lot out there to read. And it's an impulse that I recognize because I think we all have a desire to sort of find the story behind the story when it comes to artistic

creation. You know, which cafe was Bob Dylan sitting in when he wrote which song, etc., etc. I'm definitely guilty of that. I do find that some of the obsession around pinning Shakespeare's figures down to particular people to be more detrimental than anything else. For somebody who wrote the plays and the poems that Shakespeare did, are we really suggesting he didn't have the imagination to invent And two, fairly dichotomous figures. Once you've invented one of these figures, the Fair Youth or the Dark Lady, the other one is basically already invented because they're almost the opposite. So I think we would be doing Shakespeare a disservice if we thought he couldn't have invented these people out of dinner. I mean, I'm very drawn to your explanation that really these are manifestations of feelings that he was having.

You know, I'm also quite convinced by the idea that we should be looking at these figures as representations of a single person is quite reductive. I mean, it's far more likely in my eyes that the Dark Lady is an amalgam of real people and Shakespeare's imagination. And I think that's the way that people tend to invent characters. I think more characters are composite versions of several people than they are recreations of a single person. And I think perhaps the thing that I'm most convinced by is the depiction of the rival poet. Like I said, it's a figure that only appears in, I think, eight of the sonnets in the middle. and there have been many real-life playwrights and poets that people have tried to claim that Shakespeare was sort of writing this character in response to.

So, you know, Edmund Spencer, Christopher Marlowe, George Chapman, contemporaries of Shakespeare. And again, that can be fun and that can be an interesting exercise. And, you know, anyone who's seen the popular 90s film, Shakespeare in love, you know, will recognise that idea of Shakespeare as kind of a slightly adversarial figure to Christopher Marlowe. I do think that we as a readership do get too obsessed with trying to find biographical readings and it plays into the wider sort of conspiracy theories about who Shakespeare himself was and sometimes I think that we can get too drawn into those conversations and forget to really immerse ourselves in the text themselves because we're too busy looking for clues that they would

be this person or that when really we're never going to know and I even if we found Shakespeare's diary saying such and such character was inspired by so and so I actually think it would be a relatively poor payoff. I don't think people would be satisfied by that. For sure. And you forget artistic license always has a part in these things. And it is very easy to forget when someone occupies the space as large as that, that they might actually just be using certain poetic skills or poetic license to create things. You know, personification is one of the things that I would always call to with these poems. And that the fair youth in the dark lady, because they aren't complex, I would not be surprised.

if they were simply representations of those emotions, the fair youth being bright and youthful and representing innocence and the dark lady representing the opposite of that. It is very often how I read these sonnets, and I think it offers a much richer tapestry of what these sonnets represent. I think it would be a real shame if we always assume that Shakespeare is the poet and the speaker, because you never look at Shakespeare's plays that are fictional and go, oh, well, they're autobiographical in this sense

and try and tie in those pieces. Poems, on the same hand, yes, they can be inspired by things you're going through or histories that are being written around you, but they don't have to be autobiographical. And I think it's a real shame that a lot of people will often not be able to separate the two. And I'd just like to touch on sort of Shakespeare's character creation more broadly because I think it's a really interesting part of kind of his legacy. If we look back through his career prior to the sonnet,

I mean, this is a guy who did write about real people. Obviously, many of Shakespeare's most famous plays are histories. And I think what's really interesting is when you have a figure like Shakespeare writing about people real or otherwise, the way in which that version of a character becomes the version that is definitive is absolutely fascinating. I mean, so much of our modern conception of Julius Caesar is Shakespeare. not the histories.

So much of our conception of Cleopatra or Richard the third, these are Shakespearean figures, but they were also real life figures, and yet there is, in my eyes, a lot more Shakespeare than people are willing to admit. I think, you know,

someone like Richard III in particular, I think a lot of the historiography would point to the fact that Shakespeare's portrayal is very inaccurate, and yet I think his portrayal is the one people will think of first. And I think when you look at a figure

like the Dark Lady, I think it's really interesting to view her in the context of some of Shakespeare's other female characters. I mean, there's no hint of Juliette in her, but there's more than a hint of Lady Macbeth insofar as she becomes the problem. She is the reason that the fair youth makes bad decisions, right?

You get that kind of slightly misogynistic reading of it's never the fair youth's fault, it's never really Macbeth's fault, it's this kind of scheming woman behind the scenes. I think there's more than the hint of Cleopatra about her, that kind of something unusual about this woman in the way that she's able to sort of draw men, to her and perhaps cause strife as a result. I mean, obviously, Cleopatra, it's more

sort of geopolitical strife, whereas in this, it's more strife between the fair youth and the speaker. But I think it's really important to view Shakespeare's poetic figures late in his career through the lens of the dramatic figures he'd already created by this point, who in turn are often based on real people. Of course, there's an interplay between Shakespeare's work, between his sonnets and between his plays. But there's also an afterlife. of these poems and it's one of the things I always love to explore on our podcast is where does Shakespeare take us after? He leaves this incredibly dense legacy and is one of the most revered poets and playwrights of all time in the present day. But where does his influence actually take

us? What poets are writing back against that tradition? I think on some level virtually everybody, I think this is one of the things that, unless you're immersed in sort of the literary world, you might not realize how much of our language, how much of our art is owed to Shakespeare, whether that's characters, whether that's individual words, whether that's sort of plot devices. I mean, you mentioned Baz Luhrmann earlier on, and, you know, filmmakers are massively inspired by him, but not only when they're remaking, but, I mean, more recently, Baz Luhrman's Elvis, I think you can look at that film as a Shakespearean tragedy. It fits the same archetypes.

it has the same kind of ebbs and flows that we would associate with a type of drama that Shakespeare defines in many ways. Something worth remembering is that we look back with an enormous amount of hindsight and Shakespeare is now the sonneteer in the English language. But he actually wasn't considered to be

for quite some time. Milton's sonnets were actually more celebrated for at least the first sort of 100, 150 years after Shakespeare's death. So it's worth remembering that just because we view Shakespeare in a certain way now, that wasn't the case from the day he died and it won't be the same in 100 years. But, you know, in terms of poetic examples, there are some very contemporary poets who are

explicitly engaging with Shakespeare and with the sonnet. So would you like to tell us a little bit about some of those poets? Yes. Now, one of the poets that I'd really like to touch on is Jason Alan Payson. Now, he is somebody that I have mentioned before, especially in our Frost episode, I believe it was. So for anyone listening to our episode today, go back and have a listen to that. It was very insightful, I think, on how nature interplayed. Alan Payson also does an incredible job of actually writing through Shakespearean characters and the one that he particularly picks up on is the character of Othello. Now obviously Jason Alan Payson is a black poet and Shakespeare's Othello

was one of the earliest three-dimensional representations of a black man in plays in popular culture. Alan Payson's poem, Ringing Othello, says, how could I resurrect you to speak when your burial is in no ground that I can pilgrimage to except that I have been to Venice and known you walking in that place? He moves on. He said, I feel sometimes that our destinies can join

that your life unfinished is lived also through mine. Now, this is not just an indirect Shakespeare reference. This is directly calling through and to a character that Shakespeare has created that lives on through performance, through rereadings. Now, I really love what Alan Payson does in this poem, and through the collection as a whole, is that he transfigures Othello into a very contemporary figure and one that becomes more of a representation and more of a conduit for how Alan Payson feels towards issues like race and social standing. Now, Othello is obviously an incredibly complicated figure who I'm sure we could have a whole other podcast on, but we are not here to critique plays.

So I will keep it very simple. I think what Alan Payson does is imbues his work, and particularly this poem, with an almost sonnet-like feel that echoes Shakespeare in so many ways, and yet modernises that form and explores a character that is immediately offered more depth. Othello haunts this collection. And, John, I would love to know what you think about this collection, because I think it is fantastic. It's a brilliant collection.

It's got one the best covers that I can remember in recent years. I love the title as well. I think what it's able to do is take a character like Othello. And I think I admire any retelling of an old character. I find it to be one of most sort of satisfying poetic experiences when I find something and regular listeners will know that I'm big into classical retellings in modern poetry. But what I find about this is taking a character that we know that we are familiar with because of such an iconic portrayal of Othello in Shakespeare's original play, and deconstructing

it, and taking aspects and which aspects the poet chooses to focus on, that sense of the outsider, that sense of the man without a home in which he feels like he belongs, or more particularly in which other people say he doesn't belong, is something that I think really resonates with our kind of contemporary preoccupations about belonging, about identity, and plays into a lot of very contentious contemporary themes. And that in many ways speaks to Payson's ability as a poet, but also to the enduring depth of a Shakespearean character. The idea that the same character can have resonance with an audience hundreds of years later speaks to the

three-dimensional nature of that original portrayal. Let's not forget, too, that Shakespeare was a white playwright creating a complex black character. Now, that depiction was not perfect, but it was very progressive for the time. I think one of the things I really love about, in particular, this poem, Ringing Othello from Alan Pason, is that he addresses that there is still a gap. There is a silence that comes from Shakespeare's Othello and a differentiation that Alan Paceant is trying to bridge, is trying to cross. And the speaker tries to conjure Othello, but in doing so has to almost embody that character. So I look at poems that

address the Dark Lady, that address the fair youth. And I find that these characterizations are ones that I would love to see further explored in poetry. I think Alan Payson has done an incredible job of doing it for a character from Shakespeare's plays. These characters in the sonnets are ones that I think every person that's reading poetry would be familiar with. They are, as you said, amalgamations of multiple people, of multiple theories and feelings. And because they're not that complex, there is so much more that could be done with them. 100%. And I think just, you know, to touch on another sort of contemporary collection that's really, I think, in dialogue with Shakespeare,

just want to direct listeners to the 2022 T.S. Eliot Prize winner, Sonnets for Albert, which is a remarkable collection. One of my favorite collections of that year by Anthony Joseph. And again, I think maybe just to end this podcast episode, reflecting on the legacy of of the sonnet. I mean, it's a form that is so associated with Shakespeare. Shakespeare was writing in kind of a golden age of the English sonnet in particular. And of course, over the last 100 years, poetry has been dominated by newer, more diverse forms, in particular free verse, but such a prestigious prize being given to a sonnet sequence in 2022, perhaps just hints that those kind of traditional forms still have resonance in the modern world. And there is a life for

sonnets in the 21st century. They can still feel fresh. They can still feel engaging. And, you know, it's impossible to be writing a sonnet sequence in the 21st century and to not in some way be in dialogue with the bard himself because he does loom so large over this form. You know, Shakespeare's legacy is one that I think even to this day is still developing. And as you say, you've seen other playwrights, filmmakers develop these plays and and put a fresh spin on them. So the sonnet form, I'm hoping, quietly, is going to make a comeback. I think it is a real test for anyone who does right to actually give yourself limitations

and see what you can make of it. Wow. Unfortunately, that's all we have time for today. I'm sure we could discuss this for many more hours. And I have no doubt that we will return to Shakespeare at some point. But that was a fascinating conversation, Myron. For our listeners, we would love to hear your feedback. You know, if you want to tell us what you think of the sonnets, do you have a favorite sonnet?

If you have any questions you'd like us to answer about sonnets or Shakespeare in future episodes, remember, you can email them to beyond the verse at thepermanalysis.com. And just a quick reminder for listeners, if you are enjoying the podcast so far, be sure to leave us a review wherever you get your podcast and please recommend us to friends and family. Next week, we're going to be discussing Kamala Darcy's an introduction. And I cannot wait for that conversation, Meyer. But for now, it's goodbye for me. And goodbye from me and the team at Poemanalysis.com.