Beyond the Verse - Tens Years of PoemAnalysis.com with Will, the Founder (and Poetry+ Questions)

Episode Date: September 17, 2024

In this milestone 10th episode of 'Beyond the Verse,' hosts Joe and Maiya welcome Will, the founder of PoemAnalysis.com and Poetry+ to share his journey, insights and learnings in the 10+ years he's been running the site.Will shares his journey of creating the website as a young entrepreneur, inspired by his GCSE revision notes, which has now grown into a significant resource for students and poetry enthusiasts online. They delve into his relationship with poetry, the future directions for his website, and discuss his relationship with user comments and questions, among some that deeply impacted him. Throughout the episode, they explore favourite poems, the emotional impact of poetry, themes for contest submissions, and the challenges and importance of translating poetry. The episode also highlights the community and charitable aspects associated with PoemAnalysis.com, including donations to Teenage Cancer Trust, Alzheimer's Research and Great Ormond Street, among many others. If any of the stories in this podcast are close to your heart, or inspire you to donate, you can click the link to our charity page, which will allow you to go direct to each charity site and pay it forward. Thank you in advance for all your amazing support. Send us a textSupport the showAs always, for the ultimate poetry experience, join Poetry+ and explore all things poetry at PoemAnalysis.com.

Welcome to the 10th episode of Beyond the Verse with me, Joe and my co-host Meyer. And today for our 10th episode, we are joined by a very special guest, the founder of Permanalysis and Poetry Plus, Will. So lovely to have you with us, Will, finally making your appearance on the podcast. And we just want to kick off with a few questions to better understand you, how you came to the position you're in and how the podcast came about and just generally get to know the offering of Poetry Plus a little bit better. So let's start off with you and your relationship with poetry and with Permanalysis.com. How did you come to be interested in poetry and how did you come to make the website? Well, thank you very much for that glamorous introduction, Joe. In terms of

starting Permanalysis, so it was back in 2014, I started the website and it actually came from doing GCSEs in England. So, where? When I was about 15 or 16, a lot of my friends were revising for English literature, English language and other subjects by, you know, revision notes, cue cards and what have you. I decided to make a website where I took all of my notes from my English classes and just stuck all of the analysis for the poems, books and more onto this website. And over time, I started to notice it was getting a bit of traction. Obviously, I must have had really good teachers because the content was really good in terms

of the poetry analysis and the book analysis in English literature, and I was starting to see just how helpful some of this content was. And I kind of had a bit of a brainwave of, oh, it would be good to do this properly, you know, not just have me be the person helping others, but actually get people on board, you know, teachers and those doing degrees in poetry to kind of like start helping me analyze these poems. Yeah, that's how poemannatus.com was born. And it's been a pleasure to watch it grow. And I'm kind of shocked that, you know, know, eight years later, we're on a podcast, got a little team, got a membership going now, and even more people than ever are benefiting from all of the database of poetry analysis and

articles. So, yeah, very cool. It's really lovely to hear. And eight years is a long time you run in a site like that. So, you know, with how much you've built on the site, where do you see it going in the future? That's a really, really good question. And I think the answer lays with the people that come to the website. So what is quite interesting with the way I run the website is I let people comment and email and I let them come up with the ideas because I am quite, I want to be purposefully naive to say that I don't know all of the answers and the best people are the ones come to the website, the best people are the teachers, the best people are like you, Myron, Joe, in terms

of like understanding poetry. So I don't think it's in my position to kind of say where it's going, but I have a few ideas. I bounce them of others, including yourselves. I talk to the members of poetry plus. I look at every single comment, good or bad, and it all gets congregated together. And I think the future is to just keep expanding. I think we have about 4,700 poems on the website currently, which is kind of crazy in itself. That's still the tip of the iceberg. There's probably tens of thousands and it's obviously growing every single year. So I know, you know, there must have have been a point of which you really felt the site was having a really big impact on people

and readers around the world. And I know there was a particular comment left on the site a few years ago that I believe really resonated with you. So Maya, would you mind reading that comment for us? Yeah. And it's, I mean, even reading this now is a lovely, lovely comment. So this is from Michael J. Butt and he says, when I was young and in the USAF during Vietnam, I worked in the area of aeromedical evacuation. I worked long hours under extreme conditions. But when it was time for takeoff or landing, I was in my crew seat. I spent that time in different ways. Sometimes I would try to calculate in my head the speed of the plane by watching the runway markers every thousand feet and time on my watch. One day when I was not working, but on my crew rest,

I found a book in the Salvation Army store. That was the best dime I ever spent. The book was entitled Old English Poets and became my focus during takeoffs and landing. My favorite poem was this one. I had two other favourites. Oh Margaret, also by Hopkins, and when I was 1 and 20 by A.E. Houseman. I memorized those poems and managed to keep my book with me for reference over the next 30 years or so, before it became lost because of life and time. Now this morning I was trying to recite it to myself, and I'd lost a line or two. That led me to the computer and this site for which I am grateful. Well done. Life is so short and at times can be brutal. I find at my age, state of health and state of loneliness, that remembering those old poems and the old friends

who wrote them improves my spirit. Thank you so much. I mean, it must have been a few years now since that comment was first put on the site. And I was before my time at poem analysis, but I find it really affecting. I know it sort of has influenced a lot of the decisions you've made about the site since then. But just tell us a little bit about how it feels to see comments like that and to see the impact the site and the analysis is having on people. I think that comment almost makes me tearful every time I read it in a good way. Just because I didn't realize the effect poem analysis.com would have on people. I knew there would be students don't need to use it to kind of get through their exams and learn the subjects.

I know teachers would obviously use it. I know people like to learn about poetry because there's obviously like almost a different language in itself. To see that comment really does make me realize how important poetry is. And I obviously came at it from an educational perspective and to kind of get a glimpse into people's connection with poetry at such a deep level. It's honestly like a privilege. I cherish comments like that very much. I think it's one of those things. And I know Joe and I have mentioned it in our kind of Q&A episode. So for anyone who is listening to the episode today, like please go check out those previous episodes. We talk about the impact of poetry on people

whether you're brand new to it or whether you've loved poetry for years. And I mean, it kind of leads me on to my next question, Will, which is, do you have any favourite poems? So I would say there's two poets that I appreciate a lot more now as I've grown with the website. So the two are W.H. Orden and Robert Browning simply because when I was doing my English literature classes, they were the two that I most analysed. And it was my first real kind of interaction with poetry that words are not just words. There's more meaning behind the words.

And from that onwards, I would have to say my two favourite poems are probably Invictus by William Ernest Henley and If by Roger Kipling, which is really interesting because the way I look at if obviously is quite subjective. And your podcast episode was unbelievably fascinating because, again, you learn something new every day with poetry, everyone's perspectives on poetry is different based on their backgrounds, you know, and everything in between. Yeah, those are the two poems I absolutely cherish. They kind of get me through the hard times. So I'm actually kind of curious as well. What are your guys' favorite poems? Wow, big question. I mean, for me, you know, it changes day by day and week by week,

but, you know, off the top of my head right now, I think the triumph of Achilles by Louise Glick is one that really speaks to me, has a lot of the things that I sort of love about poetry, classical illusion and so forth. And Romance Sonambulo, the poem by Federico Garthio Lorca, who again, I'm sure regular listeners by now will know is a favourite poet of mine. Again, I find that one deeply affecting. But honestly, because Maya and I are fortunate enough to work in this field and with the podcast and with other pieces of work we do, we're exposed to so much great poetry that that answer could well be different in a couple of weeks' time. But what about you, my? Like you say, it's an impossible question as my answer changes almost every single day.

But I've been recently rereading some Ocean Vaugh, who as previous listeners will know, is one of my favourite poets of all time. But one of the poems that I have been rereading over and over again is torso of air. I think for such a short, short poem that's written in couplets, it is absolutely stunning and creates such a visual landscape with so little. I find that really interesting. So the way I look at poetry is very much kind of timeless and evergreen. So my two poems obviously from quite a long time ago, would you say your poetry changes because of new readings or do you think it's like your life experiences?

I'd love to know what you think about this, Joe. But I think it also comes from the way you're taught in a sense. I know that when I studied English and I did my undergrad and my master's, I actually leaned towards modern poetry. so my specialisation is in 20th and 21st century literature. So a lot of my favourite poems are naturally falling into that category because I spent so much time with them. I don't know if it differs for you at all, Joe.

Yeah, I think, I mean, this actually chimes with one of the themes that we're going to talk about later on in this episode with a question from one of our listeners about the way in which our age and our life experiences can affect a reading of a poem. And I think definitely, I mean, I think often the way that you encounter a poem for the first time can define your relationship with it, but it doesn't have to. So the examples I often give, I mean, I also teach students literature. A lot of them are teenagers and a lot of them have quite a negative perception of, let's say Shakespeare's poetry, which again, for fans of

Shakespeare's Shakespeare, buckle up because Maya and I are doing an extended episode on Shakespeare sonnets next week. But oftentimes students can come into poems by Shakespeare with quite a negative perception. And it's really rewarding to see those sort of negative thought unravel as they realize the richness of those poems. So I think absolutely life experience, but also time spent with a particular poem, can massively change the way in which you perceive it. I also think it's really important to note that poetry like any other art form is so subjective. You know, I think everyone can relate to that moment where maybe there's a piece of music

that they find at a specific time of their life. And every time they listen to it, they think about that moment and whether it was important or it stuck out to them for a particular reason. I think poetry serves the exact same purpose. And whether you are someone who approaches it from a technical side, as you said, or someone who approaches it from an emotional side, it's going to have a very similar impact. I think that's really interesting.

And I think something that kind of stood out for me on one of your early episodes was you, Joe, saying that you could almost eradicate all of history and just leave the poetry and you'd have a good understanding what happens throughout the wars and like big moments and and I think that's where I kind of get the appreciation of seeing that kind of perspective that's been unaltered. For example, one of the poems that comes to mind is, oh, what is that sound by W.H. Orden? I remember my first memory of poetry when I was learning it was realizing that he has been deliberately archaic in that poem on purpose to really show that war is timeless and that it's always around and it's not going to go away. But to have

that kind of connection with such a literary device or it's like kind of quite amazing. So I've obviously looked at things from the past backwards. How would you enjoy poetry moving forward? How do I find a poetry that kind of resonates with me mostly? I mean, you're going to have, you know, world events or things that happen around you that are in common with poets that have written poems about those things. I think that's a pretty good place to start if you're looking to the future of poetry and how to better understand it. Like, you know, the passing of a loved one, there's thousands of poems that are going to come for you at that time.

Big world events, poets are always reactive, right? So you're creating this huge wealth of work about one specific moment in time. That's why we can say, you know, you can erase all of history and just take the poems and understand those moments. But I think actually going into the future, there's some incredible, incredible poets writing at the moment who are creating really experimental work, stuff that isn't necessarily formally traditional or even using poetic techniques we've seen before. I think right now to be a writer, to be a poet, is one of the

most exciting times. Yeah, I would definitely concur with that. And of course, I would just like to remind all listeners that the best way to keep up with what's going on in the poetry world is through a poetry plus subscription where you will get bespoke recommendations in your weekly newsletter every Saturday morning. So whether it's book recommendations or just keeping up with who's publishing what and when, sign up now for a poetry plus membership. But I just like to chime in with what Maya said there about moments in your life that will be reflected by poems that already exist and poems that are being written today. Don't feel you have to wait for a kind of a traditionally momentous moment in time. You don't have to wait to have a change. You don't have to wait to have a

or to lose a loved one or anything like that to seek out poetry. There are plenty of great poems out there about cooking. So you're cooking a meal, go and read a poem about it. There are plenty of good poems out there about any place on earth. You go on a holiday somewhere. Buy a collection of poems, buy a poet from the country or the region you're visiting, and read them before you go. Because at the end of the day, poetry is a reflection of life,

every aspect of it, the mementous, the mundane. So whatever it is you're doing, there will be a poem out there that speaks to that experience. and you might find it doesn't speak to your experience or your perception of that event or thing at all. But whether or not you resonate with a poem or you rile against its depiction of a certain moment, you should still seek it out because it will enrich your experience of the life that you're living. That's a great point, Joe. And to be fair, this actually ties in with something I created on the website.

With the Poetry Plus Review Corner, we have little tags and elements that we critically analyze with ratings. and we developed a poetry archive, which has hundreds and hundreds of listicles, all of different types of poetry. And when you go and just click on some random ones and see what poems are at the top of the list and why they're at the top of the list, you can just go down a massive rabbit hole. And like you say, I've seen poems about dragons. I've seen poems about stars and nature. Fry chicken.

Yeah, to be fair. Honestly, poetry archives on Poemanasis.com, go down a rabbit hole and you'll find a poem about anything with commentary from an expert. It's pretty fun to do. Well, any of our regular listeners will know that Joe loves a rabbit hole moment. I'm becoming like a broken record already. It's only episode 10, guys. But on that rabbit hole experience and bespoke recommendations, I'm just curious. Obviously, it is our 10th episode. And by the way, this is a question open to listeners as well. We'd love to hear your comments. So please do email in response to this question. And if you have any follow-up

questions of future episodes, please send them to Beyond theverse at permanalysis.com. But while I wait for those responses for my listeners. I'd like to ask you two, because I've got you here. Favorite episode so far, was there a particular one you've listened to or Maya that you've recorded with me that you really enjoyed or you've returned to and find yourself thinking of since it's come out? Because I know I've got my answer, but I want to hear what you two think. I've been the Yves by Roger Kipling episodes was one of my favorites, simply because I had the connotations of this poem in one way. And Myers' kind of different perspective really opened up my eye is to see just how different people experience poetry, the same words, in different ways.

And it really makes me realize that when reading poetry now, I'm seeing it from whatever perspective mine is. There's going to be multiple perspectives on this poem. And I'm really curious now to see what other people think in terms of their own perspectives. And I think it's the same with even you, Joe. And obviously, you have your Irish heritage and that digging episode. Again, you have your perspective. I really treasured seeing what you've bought to the table and obviously someone like myself that's not Irish can't bring that and I really enjoy that different understanding of the poem. I think that's one of our favorite things, you know, when Joe and I discuss even after episodes, that anything that we can bring that

has that sort of personal touch to it or you can tell when we're talking that we're passionate about the poem, it feels really important. I actually think surprisingly one of my favorite episodes was our last one on the second coming by Yates. I think when we went into that poem, I was expecting to talk about it one way. And as we recorded the podcast, it just came so naturally. I think the way we went through that poem was so different to the way you've analyzed some of our previous poems on the podcast. And it really stuck out to me as one that I think also for Joe and I just, we felt really confident talking about it. And that to us feels really important as well. But I don't know, Joe, what's your favorite episode been?

Well, I mean, I love the episodes that you guys have mentioned. And I promise this isn't a cop-out answer. But again, if I can bring our listeners back to Federico Garthia Lorke, he was asked, what's your favorite play, Federico? And he said, the ones I haven't written yet. Of course, the best episodes that we're going to do are the ones we haven't done yet. And I cannot wait. Amaya shaking her head at me for listeners? But no, on a serious note, I mean, I love the Yates episode too. I really enjoy the Q&A episodes. And we're going to get to some of our listeners questions later on, because ultimately, as Will said earlier on, the thing we really enjoy about this process, not only on the website, but in the podcast as well, is being driven

by our listeners. What do you guys want to know? What do you guys want to understand? What do you want us to discuss? And obviously, like I said, I gave the email address earlier on. I'll mention it again later, but please do send us your query. So a bit of a cop-out answer from me, but I've enjoyed the question episodes an awful lot. I agree with you, Joel. Now, I think the ability to have a two-way conversation is something that I truly treasure with poem analysis. It's amazing to see all of the different comments we get, all of the different perspectives, all of the different questions, and to kind of bounce off that, to kind of go deeper into poetry. So, Will, obviously you've been running the site for, I mean, a long time.

We just said eight years. What are a couple of things you've learned from the site, whether that's about poetry or whether that's about the people who love the site? To be fair, Joe, that could be a whole podcast by itself. self. So with running and creating a website, there's a lot of technical things to do as well. And it's been a nonstop journey of learning on my part and to kind of juggle different areas such as social media, search engines and making sure the website's quick and make sure it's not breaking and making sure people can log in and making sure X, Y and Z, it's nonstop. And I don't

regret a single minute of doing any of that because I absolutely love learning. I actually love seeing all the different perspectives. I love learning about how we can better improve people's lives by making poetry more accessible, by improving the analysis, by making it easier to understand. There's just too much to choose from. And I'd have to say, just to kind of put into perspective, I did a five-year master's degree on automotive engineering with motorsport. And within the first two years, I learned more from doing the website than the whole entire degree. And for me, I absolutely value learning. So you can kind of see how much I've been enjoying doing this and continue to enjoy it as well.

Yeah, and I think that learning, and if I may say so, I think that love of learning is quite infectious. And I think that really comes through in the site. One of the things that I love about working for permanent analysis and doing the podcast as well is that sense that what the learner wants is front and center in every conversation. How do we create the best experience for somebody who loves poetry or somebody who is forced to do poetry by their teacher?

Whoever it is, however they enter the site, the central tenet to every conversation that we have is about how they can leave it having had the best experience with the poem. 100%. And coming from a community perspective as well, the community of readers that you've managed to establish

is incredible, really. I have to add as well to the answer that I absolutely love the people I work with. There's been many different people that have wrote for the website, teachers, those doing degrees, social media experts, you know, website designers, and it's just brilliant to build this kind of community. The Slack channel, do you know what Slack is, is just kind of buzzing with messages

all the time. And I'd have to say one of my funniest and best memories was actually Joe, I can remember how long ago was it? Was it like two, three years ago? Three years, yeah. If it's a story, I think you're going to tell that is. He contacted poem analysis simply just with the contact form. And just for reference, every single contact form, every single email is always read and replied to, except for Joe's. He contacted us and I just forgot to read it. And about a year later, I was like, oh, this guy sounds great. Let's meet up and we went for a pub lunch in London. And that's where he sat down for the first time. I remember this very vivid memory of him describing William Blake's London and describing how the AAB Rhyme scheme can mean

different things such as the footsteps walking through London or the contrast between the ritual of Paul. And it kind of blew my mind, you know, being the owner of a poem analysis and having this kind of like teaching from Joe. And that's when I just realized, Joe's amazing at what he does. And hopefully everyone who's listened to the podcast and read his articles thinks the same thing as well. Well, that's very kind of you. And I'm very flattered to hear you say that. And look, you know, hopefully those insights are half as good as will remembers them. And I'm sure that Maya and I will get to William Blake's London at some stage. But if that's a poem you want to see Analyze, please do send us a message. Because as we said

already, we really want to hear what you guys want us to talk about. Will, going off the website, one of the things that is really important to you is charity. So can you tell us a little bit about all those connections that you've managed to build? Yeah. So when I started Poem analysis, I wanted to make sure the website was helping as many people as possible and make a kind of pack to always give back no matter what. So since the start, there's been two or three charities that we've consistently donated to that have connections to people that have previously worked for problem as well as myself. You'll see it on the charity page on the website. We have Teenage Cancer Trust, Alzheimer's Research, Great Ormond Street Hospital, the ocean

conservancy and world animal protection. So the ocean conservancy and world animal protection was the choices of a previous writer, Emma Baldwin. And the three that were first mentioned were kind of my choices along with a few others. So just to give a background, when I was 15 or 16, a friend who I shared main classes with at school, suddenly got leukemia and unfortunately passed away very quickly after that. It was devastating and I made it my kind of vow to not forget him and to continuously donate to teenage cancer trust, which really helped him in his last few months to kind of make the most of all of the freshest time he had left. His name was Joshua Tafts. I know people will listen to this will be friends with me that will have great

memories of him. So his legacy lives on with poem analysis. The next charity Alzheimer's research, I think, is hugely important for the website. And I think it goes well with kind of the sharing of knowledge of poem analysis because it's not a normal thing to get dementia and Alzheimer's when you get old. It is a disease. And I found the horrors of dementia when my man got it, I think in the early 2010s. And I had to look after with my granddad, but quite a few years until she unfortunately passed away. And I remember how much of a trooper my granddad was and my brother, my dad, and myself, just doing everything we can to help her. And to donate to a charity like that really hits home for me. And I know it hits home for other people that come to the

website because we've had multiple contacts and comments to say, you know, thank you. This is really good you're doing this. And to be fair, I think it's making a difference because if you keep up to date without Alzheimer's research, you'll notice that in the last two to three years, there's been some developments with drugs that slowed down dementia and Alzheimer's, as well as some good findings that could potentially cure it very early on. So the funding that we're providing to them is definitely having an impact and will continue hopefully to have an impact. And then there's this great Ormond Street Hospital, which is for people that don't know, it's a specialist child hospital in the UK that helps children with severe illnesses that are very hard to cure. A lot of

these children haven't had a life yet. And to give them the best. start possible kind of is amazing that this charity is able to do that. And some of the illnesses they tree and the new technologies that come up with is absolutely amazing. So if there's any suggestions from readers, listeners and poetry plus members or any particular charities that they would like Permanathis to contribute to, I'm more than happy to add them on because ultimately it's all about giving back. We want to give knowledge to people. We want to help people with poetry, but we also want to help others where we can as well. Thanks for that. Well, and I know that some of that stuff was probably difficult to talk about, so we really appreciate

it. And as a reminder to listeners, you can learn more about those charities on the charity page on the website and we'll also put links in the show notes of this episode. So if anyone's looking for donation links or more information about how they can support those charities, we can put those links in the show notes for you. So something that I'm quite curious for you, both of you guys is how has it been starting a podcast because we came up with this idea I think two, three months ago. It's got some great attention. We've had a few kind of list of calls that have mentioned us. So that's a really good feedback to hear that. How have the nerves been? How has it been to kind of hear yourself on podcasts and being spoken about? Was it like getting

feedback from it? And there's anything else you can share about it. Yeah. I mean, it's something we wanted to do. I think that's the first thing. Just in case any listeners are worried, Will didn't twist our arm. It's been brilliant. And I've known Maya for a few years now, and as I'm sure our listeners will agree, she's great. And the chance to talk to her about something we're both passionate about once a week is a real dream come true. And I think there's been a lot of learning curves of both of us, whether it's to do with the planning, the actual speaking with it on the podcast, the editing process. We've learned a lot. And the chance to get better is one we're really grateful for. I mean, I've loved the experience. Maya and I obviously both studied literature at university

level and master's level. So talking about it shouldn't be that strange to us. But, you know, doing it on the recording is different. Everyone gets nervous. But I think the thing I've most enjoyed is the interaction with the listeners, learning what you guys think, hearing your feedback, hearing what you want us to discuss. There's been some good pointers as well as some great questions. So we're really grateful and we hope that it is the 10th, but far far from the last episode that we do. But what about you, Maya? No, I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, what you said about it being so different when you actually sit down to record as opposed to just having a conversation is definitely true. But I think having the space to talk about

something that you truly, truly love is always an amazing experience. Being able to feel as if we're contributing to a wider conversation, you know, the conversations that we have with listeners, the emails that we can respond to, the fact that we can sit here and take all of our listener questions and actually put them back out into the world and just keep sharing that knowledge. It feels like a really important cycle to me. And I think especially being part of Poemanalysis.com and knowing that we're contributing further to charitable organizations and it all feeds into one another. But yeah, it's been a huge learning curve. I think you and I have really expected this to kind of blow up in the way that it has. But every single episode we record, we feel more

comfortable, we're more ready. You know, we're constantly bringing new ideas to the table. And that is something that I find so exciting as someone who does love literature anyway. But I hope that really shows for people who are listening to us, you know, every week or even just intermittently, it's a passion project, really. And like I say, well, a huge thank you to you as well for letting us kind of run with it. Yeah, to be fair, Maya. I didn't actually know you before. Joe gave you the glowing recommendation to have you join the podcast.

And it's been an absolute pleasure to listen in and do all the edits in behind the scenes with you for each of these episodes. I have another question, actually. Where would you like the podcast to go? I haven't actually discussed this with you to either. So I'm kind of curious. I mean, for me, I would think it's amazing to start to get poets on here, to really get their understanding because ultimately, you know,

we can talk as much as we can, but it would be great to hear it from the horse's mouth. But yeah, I would love to know where you would love and who would you would love to have on a podcast as well. I think one of the things I've mentioned in previous episodes is one of the things I actually credit Joe with for when we first met is that he massively supported me when I was a young writer, putting out my work and being like a hugely influential voice at that point. I think this podcast as well had the same ability to brand new poets or published poets or people who are just looking to promote a new collection and come on and talk about something that they've put their heart and soul into. I think to bring poets onto the podcast would be an incredible opportunity and obviously something Joe and I am sure. would be very, very excited about getting to talk to people that we've probably read and loved and talked about ourselves. But I think even just going forward into the next 10, 20, 30 episodes, it would be really nice to just build this base of people who feel like they can share with us.

Joe, what do you think? Yeah, I mean, I agree with what you said. And I think the thing that I really enjoy, you know, behind the scenes with regard to the podcast is obviously we have a stats page And you can see the number of countries around the world that people have listened. I mean, well over 100 countries, and it's a real privilege, the idea that people from all walks of life all over the globe are listening to us. And I guess one of the things I would really love for the podcast is to eventually get to the stage where I feel like we're really covering the breadth that our listeners already represent, the idea that we'd be able to do poets from all over the world, whether that's poets like we've done thus far, where we're just discussing their work. or whether that's getting poets on to interview. You know, the world of poetry is so rich, so dense. There are so many great voices that Maya and I, who I think it's fair to say,

are relatively well versed in this world, we're ignorant of and I want to discover them. So if you have poets you want us to talk about, send them in. If you are a poet and you want to come on and discuss your work, contact us because there is a limitless supply of great work out there and we want to talk about all of it. I really love them answers. And I think the way I would start up this podcast is there's always room to learn. There's always room to grow. There's always room to dig deeper.

And I think the episodes you've done up to now have really shown that. So for me, I'm quite excited by the complete and utter flexibility of we have a rough structure, but who knows what the podcast is going to bring? Who knows what our members are going to want us to talk about or obviously YouTube to talk about? And I'm just excited to listen because I know every single episode. I listened to. I have a newfound appreciation and it's a privilege. It really is a privilege. And on that note, I believe we have some questions from some of our listeners. And as a reminder, if you want to make sure that your question gets answered by Maya and I on subsequent

episodes of the podcast, not only do you need to send your questions to Beyond theverse at pomeanalysis.com, but a poetry plus subscription will ensure that your questions are prioritized and will put them top of the list to be answered. But Maya, I just want to kick off with this first question. And frankly, it's a brilliant one from Michael. And Michael would like to know, and it's a desperate plea for a new collective noun for poetry. He says that even though he runs poetry workshops and was a creative director, he's stumped. His only offerings being poetics or poemsy, which I think, and I agree with him, don't quite cut the mustard. So can we think of a better collective noun for poetry? It's a lovely question from Michael to start

off with. Any ideas? I literally have no idea how to answer that question. I think, think he's absolutely right. Poetry as a term covers such a broad variety of different writing, of different forms, of different techniques. And I do agree. I don't necessarily think using a poetics is really a determinant enough. But I could not tell you a word that I think would cover it any better. Have you got any ideas? I don't know. I mean, there was a book a few years ago that I think I read or perhaps I just saw it that was a guide to economics by poets. So maybe Poenomics, I think would be a nice collective noun. I think would be my offering. Any ideas, Will? You're the engineer amongst us. You must know some technical language. So what do you think?

A collective noun for poetry. To be fair, I think maybe it needs some sort of kind of word before it to kind of like a double barrel word. I'm not sure what that word would be. But I would still keep poetry now. I'd introduce something else. I also do love this idea that Poetics covers if you're a writer or if you're a creator, it covers your very personal poetics. You kind of get to define it for yourself. I feel like if more and more poets out there who are publishing work kind of get to say on their blurb maybe, this is my personal poetics. This actually leads us on to a really interesting question. So this is from Charles, who very fairly quotes Elliot at us and says, art is subjective. There is no

one ready to read a poem. The reader's response is just as valid as the authors. Nevertheless, it's always good to hear from those who specialize. I think it's interesting given our position as people who obviously critically analyze poems on a podcast. Joe, what do you think? Is art subjective? Is there no one way to read a poem? Wow. Well, thanks, Maya, and thank you to the questionnaire. That's a tricky one. I think I'm a big believer that once an artist puts art into the world, they relinquish control of it. So I think if a painter, a novelist or a poet wants to retain complete authorial authority over their work, don't publish it, basically. Keep it in your notebook, keep it in your studio. I think the moment you put work out into the

world, you enter into conversation with those people who read or experience it. Now, whether or not I think that a reader of a poem has the same level of authority on that work as the person who wrote it? I don't know, but I think it has to be a conversation at that stage. I don't believe that it would be good for art if artists got to define the way their work was interpreted. But the experience of viewing art is, of course, subjective and personal. So it's a tricky one. I mean, Maya and I have a vested interest in there being some level of judgment on this, because otherwise, by what rights would we claim any kind of expertise? But I certainly don't think that because somebody says, this is what a piece of art means, or this is the way you should respond to

a piece of art that any individual reader is compels to feel that way. So do you think there's also poetry and art where the author wants it to be interpreted differently straight from the get-go? And is there other times when the author doesn't want their personal experience or the way they envision it to be the way others envision it? It's just a really tough question. I think coming at it from a writing perspective, there's plenty of things that I've written that people have interpreted very differently. And when I was a lot

younger and I would get like criticism, I'd be like, what do they mean? They're telling me to be more vague. They don't agree with it. But now I think, you know, if you write a piece that is emotional and means something to you and it means something to someone else because of a different reason, I don't think you have any authority to tell them that it's the wrong reaction. So I think validity and what Charles says in this question is a bit more of a subtle question. Like the reader's response, I do believe, is just as valid because nobody gets to tell you how you relate to anything. I think this is one story that will illustrate this. Kingsley Amos was doing an event where he was talking about his son who had to study one of his novels at A level. And Kingsley Amos

helped his son write his essay and the essay received a very, very poor mark. And I think if nothing else, illustrates the fact that once a writer puts their work out in the world. Things are going to happen to it. It's going to be twisted. It's going to be reinterpreted. The environment in which it's received, the way it's taught, the way the history changes. Art doesn't stand still because the world doesn't stand still and therefore we can't expect one person's interpretation of what they intended to create to stand above anything else. For sure. And I mean, this is a conversation the three of us had even the other day about how context can massively implicate a poem's reception as well. And whether you do divorce the context from the poem, a reader's response

isn't just informed by their own personal experiences, but it's also informed by things going on in the world. It's informed by so many greater things than like an experience they had in childhood or the job they do or things as simple as like what they have a breakfast that morning, you know. I think poetry has an incredible way of being so broadly received. And I, I think to take that away from anyone's particular experience with a poem would be a really great failure, to be honest. So on to our next question. I'm going to ask this to you, Maya, as the poet amongst us. And this is a question from Thomas. And Thomas very simply would like to know, when it comes to rhyme, should we be regarding rhyme as something that's a deep well of creative expression?

Or is it ultimately a distraction for the reader? It's a really interesting question because I think another poet might answer this quite differently than I'm. I would. And Joe, I'd be really interested to know your opinion as someone who reads and studies poetry like this. But anyone who has ever read any of my work, it is not something that I really have ever used intentionally. Rhyme is not something that I find comes very naturally to me as a writer. But I do absolutely agree that it serves purpose and has intention. One of the things that Thomas raises in this is that the ancients rarely wrote in Rhyme like Homer. And as much as I think there is a huge appreciation for the

ancients in that sense, I don't think they're great because they didn't use rhyme. I think they're great for many, many other reasons. My personal relationship with Rhyme is far more complicated. I think it does a fantastic job of illustrating points. I think if you're writing a free verse poem as I mostly do, rhyme serves as almost a punctuation of sorts. But I also, I have a huge, huge admiration for poets who do write and rhyme. I personally struggle with it because I actually struggle to find the words and to force yourself to make things rhyme to try and write a poem is doing yourself a disservice when actually you could be writing an incredible poem

that doesn't need rhyme. If you find it easy and it comes to you like that, go on and use it. it does an incredible, incredible job of making rhythm and flow and creating an energy in a poem. I don't think they are necessarily unnatural. And I think, you know, don't forget, like music uses rhyme all the time. And just because it's backed up by a track, it doesn't make it any less honourable. But what are your thoughts on it? Well, I'm really glad you mentioned music, because that's definitely something I'd like to talk about. But just, I think, to zoom out on

this question slightly, I think, rhyme doesn't mean one thing everywhere, obviously. Different languages lend themselves much more to rhyme. I mean, particularly sort of languages that are Indo-European tend to have a lot more rhyming words available. So you can find more creative ways of rhyming without it seeming kind of too forced. I think one of the reasons that rhyme has, I guess, a bit of a bad rep at the moment in poetry is, of course, we are in a moment of free verse. The last 100 years of poetry have been dominated by free verse, have been dominated by the move away from traditional forms. relied more upon rhyme. I think that's one reason. You know, it's not in vogue at the moment.

One of the other things is that when people are first trying to write poetry, say as teenagers or as young people, I think there is a view that to write poetry you need to rhyme, and some of the rhymes that people come up with are quite terrible. I think there's a slightly negative association that comes with that. Now, many of those people might go on to be very, very talented poets, and it's not a criticism of those early works, but I think those early works are often tainted by clumsy or just rhymes that don't work. really. But I think the point about music you made Meyer is a really good one. Because I think despite this general trajectory away from rhyming poetry, music remains absolutely cutting edge

in terms of its ability to speak to people around the world. And it relies on rhyme massively. I mean, as I'm sure listeners might already know, but they're certainly going to go on to know at some stage. I'm an enormous fan of the music of Bob Dylan, one of the most creative rhymers of the last 50 years. But think about modern rap music, people like Kendra at Lamar, the way in which rhyme is used in those songs is incredibly energizing, incredibly profound, really cutting edge. And it really is a spanner in the works of the argument that rhyme is somehow antiquated and not fresh and not modern. But, you know, what do you think, Will? One of the things that I learn, especially from the great PDF resources you've been

doing, Joe, for the PDF learning library, which I would highly recommend, Thomas, you go and at because there is some brilliant PDFs which go through all of the different rhyme schemes and shows you the effect that these rhyme schemes can have, like certain kind of emotions, it can create tension, it can create speed and pace. And I think that's the way I kind of look at it, that rhymes aren't just there for the sake of it being there. They're there for a reason. I'd actually like to bring up one of the things Joe and I have talked about in previous episodes, which is obviously the difference between spoken word poetry and reading poetry on a page. And one of the things I always think about rhyme is that it's so dependent on your voice, your

delivery, how you receive a poem. And I've always, always loved listening to poetry live. I think it's one of the most uplifting things you can do, even if the poem is the saddest poem you can imagine. To hear someone speak it with all of that emotion, all of that intention is such a fantastic thing to witness. But, rhyme in itself, I think has, as Joe says, a bit of a bad rep for feeling a little bit clumsy and almost like people are choosing words that rhyme and then writing the poem around it just to make it make sense. And then it doesn't really end up making sense anyway. But we're forgetting that, you know, there's some really cool techniques like even internal rhyme where you're writing your lines and you just happen to naturally have almost a mimic or an echo of something. And when you hear that live, it can actually lead the audience into guessing what to expect.

I actually remember one of my core memories about watching poetry being spoken live. I went to, I think it was like Birmingham Literary Festival or something like that. But I remember it was Malika Booker was reading and she was reading this fantastic poem. And throughout the whole poem, it was all rhymed and the audience got super comfortable. And then suddenly in one line, she took a pause before the rhyming word. And everyone was like sat there with bated breath and she didn't use a rhyme. And you could feel in the audience how everyone just fell flat. And having that power just from using rhyming words is absolutely insane.

I think it's such a skill to be able to play with people's emotions and feelings like that. Joe, I don't know if you've had a similar experience. I'm really glad you mentioned that word skill because, again, the question that asks this as kind of a binary choice, is it creative? Is it a distraction? Who's using it, I suppose, would be the question. I mean, one of the problems that rhyme is going to have is, you know, you might be able to get away with a slightly clunky metaphor because you can kind of embed that within the context of the term. Because a rhyme is obviously very audible, a bad one sticks out and it doesn't take many rhymes that don't work before people. people in the audience or people reading it start to sort of lose faith with it. And people

remember a clumsy rhyme. So I think, as my eyes just alluded, it's a device like anything else. And when it's used well, it can be phenomenally impactful. As impactful as any linguistic device that you might find in the poem. I just think it's harder to get away with if you use it poorly. It's a bit of a poison chalice. I think it's not massively popular at the moment. It's difficult to use well. But perhaps that's all the more reason to celebrate the poets who do use it well, rather than just dismissing it. I'd love to just add to that to both of you. I read Still Arise by Mayor Angelou, and I really felt a whole range of different emotions and kind of appreciation for the poem from the way she read it. And I think that's really

kind of homes in what you said, my, that, you know, a reading on a page can be very different from the actual poet reading, because obviously you're reading it the way you want to read it. Obviously, there's in jambments and stuff that can like change the way you read it in your heads. But hearing the poet reads like Maya Azjo did, very different experience. For sure. I mean, there's been poems that I've written that I thought were like outrageously funny. And people have turned around and gone, God, that was, that was really, that was a hard read. And I'm like, what?

What do you mean? Like, I thought it had a completely different reception. And then I've read it out with the tone that I was intending and they've gone, oh, I didn't read it that way at all. So as Joe kind of said earlier, you can't, as an artist of any sort, you know, put a preface before your poem and go, this is meant to be read this way, there's tone on this. You can't add, you know, accents and emphasis unless you're writing in bold and italics and trying to show the reader what they should be reading. Our next question is from Alia, who asks, how does the use of imagery enhance the emotional impact of a poem? I think that really plays into what we've just been discussing. but Joe, I'd love to know your opinion on it. Well, in terms of the emotional impact, I mean, that's a really interesting question. I think the place that I would direct Alia and any other listeners who were sort of interested in the effect the image we can have on the poem is if this isn't too much of a sort of shining our own wheels would be to our last episode on the second coming by WB8.

I think the way in which Yates was able to conflate biblical and classical imagery. I think I don't know so much about the emotional impact on the poem, but in terms of, the depth it adds to the poem. And I think that's the thing that I really think of. When I think of poems that employ imagery really brilliantly, I think the thing it does is it creates depth. It creates re-reading value because you have the initial image that is created, but then you have the story behind the image. And that can make your second reading or your third reading of a poem all the more sort of rich and enjoyable. So what do you think, my? I think that's a great example of how imagery can

impact how you feel about a poem. Anytime you explore a poem, they will be setting a scene or creating a vista, let's say. And if you can pick up on the smallest things that make you think of something else, that constitutes as imagery. It's creating a vision in your head. And it really leads into what we were saying earlier

about how your personal stories are going to impact the emotional value of a poem. You know, it always sticks with me, Joe, how you say, obviously with your Irish heritage, when you're reading about the Irish landscapes, it has a much heavier emotional impact for you than maybe if you were reading about a landscape that you didn't necessarily understand

or you weren't familiar with. So I think it's all about familiarity and in the same way, disconnect if you're reading a poem that is using imagery that you're unfamiliar with and it's on purpose, and they're purposefully trying to disconnect you from your position in the poem, that's just as fantastic a skill as it is to make someone feel comfortable. Yeah, definitely. And while we're on the subject of Ireland, we've got another question from George.

I would like to know whether we think the Guyanese poet Martin Carter was influenced by Yates. And again, as a reminder, listeners can go to our last episode on Yates is the second coming. But what do you think about Martin Carter and his potential influence by Yates? Martin Carter is a poet I don't think many listeners will be familiar with, as you said, a Guyanese poet and political activist, as you said, Joe, raised in British Guyana. So I think it would be remiss to assume that Martin Carter maybe hadn't read Yates. Yates was an incredibly popular poet at the time, especially if you're looking at a colonized country that likely had a lot of British influence. Yates was probably thrown around. I say that term very loosely. However, there is a big difference. between direct and indirect influence from the Martin Carter poems I've read. I think they speak to different values, but I can definitely see where George is picking up on common threads or common phrases. I kind of love the idea that if you think someone was influenced by someone

else and you can pick up those threads, I don't think anyone can tell you they weren't. They're not there to dispute you. George, massive congrats for picking up on a thread that I don't think I ever would But also, you know, it's very important to note that these two poets are writing from completely different places, but it's a really beautiful example of how you can have two completely different backgrounds and readers can still find common threads between the two. I think it's one of the things Joe and I talk about quite a lot is the greater poetic conversation and to be able to create a link between those two poets across years and countries and experiences is a really fascinating thing to see that red thread

that sort of goes through every poem and leads to something that you might write one day. Joe, I don't know if you've got a wider understanding of Martin Carter. I must admit, I've only read a few of his poems. So please tell us your opinion on it. Well, first of all, I found that really interesting, Mara, and I just started to pick up a little bit further. So like you, I'm not massively familiar with Martin Carter.

I've read a few of his poems, but I'm obviously more familiar with Yates and my background is so much in Irish literature. So I suppose, coming back to Georgia's question, I think one of the things that is definitely an interesting thematic link is, of course, both these poets were writing and their careers spanned periods in which their countries were under British rule and then gained independence. So Yates is writing most of his career under British rule,

but a good chunk of his career after the establishment of the Irish Free State in 1921. Martin Carter is, I believe, 29 years old in 1966, which is when Guyana achieved independence in Britain. So I think the post-colonial angle is an interesting one, and there might well be thematic links in their work, having come of age in a country that was under the rule of a foreign country, and then achieved independent. So some of those kind of preoccupations might well be interesting.

There is also a danger, perhaps, of thinking that just because nations are former colonies, that they share more than they do, so I wouldn't want to overstates their similarities either. But again, I'd like to just echo what Maya said, there are undeniably parallels between the countries that they were living in the way that they achieved independence from British rule. I'm not aware of any sort of specific identifiable moments within the poems that I would regard as, oh, that's a Yatesian influence, but Yates looms enormously large in the 20th century and beyond. In my opinion, he's the 20th century's greatest poet. He'd been dead for some time by the time that Martin Carter was writing, and so his legacy was

already kind of larger than life. So we have a question from Keith, actually, who picks up on one of the previous episodes that you, Joe and Maya, did, on The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost. He couldn't understand why people were getting confused with the poem in the sense that regret wasn't a universal experience and that maybe some people might be too young to be tormented by regret. Joe and Meyer, what do you guys think? Well, as the older statesman of the podcast, at the ripe old age of 27, I don't think necessarily that you have to be massively old to have regret. I also don't think you necessarily have to harbor massive personal regrets to identify the regrets that others might have. It's true that Maya and I are not massively old. And perhaps we are more youthful than some of our listeners. I don't know how old Keith is, for example. But I think the world of poetry analysis would be a poorer place if we had to have experienced.

everything that we sought to identify in poems. I think it's perfectly possible to identify the regret without having experienced it oneself. But, I mean, I think Keith does strike upon one of the central tenets of that poem, which is that when you read it, it is a surprise that it's been misinterpreted so much. I think we covered that in our episode, but what do you think, my? He definitely addresses one of those key criticisms, I think, of the road not taken, in that the more and more we analysed.

it and the more we read it, the clearer it seemed to be that it was about regret and that it was about worrying about which path was the right path. And I kind of applaud Keith for being able to pick up on that in the first instance, because as you say, it's one of the most misinterpreted poems of our generation. It is so often misquoted or you're misled by the way that it's discussed. as you said, you don't need to be of a certain age to experience regret or be able to understand that poem. But what if this is the first poem you ever read as a young reader? What if you are, you know, you love English, you are a young kid at school, and this is one of the first poems that you pick up. And actually, you're not really focusing on the fact that it's

a mental torment, but you're looking at the natural imagery in it. You're looking at the footsteps and the trees, and you're picking up on that, in that sense, your interpretation is going to be entirely different because of your experience. For Keith to read this poem and so clearly understand the root message is one of the things that we constantly drive people to do on this podcast, which is to find a poem that speaks to you and resonates with you on a really deep emotional level. I'm so happy for Keith that he feels that with this poem. and, you know, I really hope that our episode did that poem justice for him as well. But I think to have trouble understanding poems and to struggle with your reading is a really

natural part of the process. I must admit that even though we are on this podcast talking and critiquing poems weekly, that doesn't mean that we don't come across some poems that we also don't know how to talk about or we don't know how to understand. We have to do further research and that's part of the beauty of it, I think. I would love to add to that, Maya, keeps comments about being too young to be tormented by regret. The way I look at that kind of statement, he says, is if you ask a thousand people, what do you regret the most? They'll give you an answer. If you say to them next, what age did that happen? I can almost guarantee every single number will be almost different to every single

person. And I kind of like the idea that there isn't a linearity to, to have a regret. Some people will get a lot of regret in their early 20s. Other people will fly into their 40s and do nothing until, and then have a midlife crisis regret, maybe. Some other people might, you know, be 60 until they have their first regret. And I think I would definitely think about regret as something that time increases the chances of you having it, but doesn't increase it in a linear fashion. And I guess what creates them is kind of the choices you make in the time that you're given. So we're drawing towards the end now. We've got to couple more questions. And one of them is, and I think it's a really interesting one to pose to you,

Maya, which is what are the current themes that one should take up for writing poetry if one is looking to enter a poetry contest in the UK and the USA? So I have obviously thoughts on this, but I'd love to go to you because, and again, I'm sure our listeners are all over this already, but we have award winners in the house and they're not Will or I. So over to you, Maya. Oh, it's such a tough question. And, Centaur, I feel for you massively, if you are submitting to things because it is one of the most terrifying experiences to put your work out into the world and not know how it's going to be received. But in terms of current themes that you should take up, I know it sounds like a cop-out answer, but I don't think there are any.

I think you have to write what feels true to you and what is important to you. And if that so happens to tie in with maybe something that you care about that's going on in the world or something that, and this is one thing that I think we did discuss on a previous podcast episode, maybe one of the judges of the competition that you're submitting to or the magazine you're submitting to has done an interview perhaps that talks about the things that they care about. Maybe your poem aligns with something that they care about. That's always a great place to start if you're unsure, because it's just going to give you a little bit of a boost in knowing that the person

who's reading your poem is going to be able to understand where you're kind of. coming from. But there's no right or wrong answer. And I mean, to try and set some people's fears at ease, let's say, I submitted to plenty of competitions and magazines and got so much criticism back. I got told to be more specific. I was told to be more vague. I was told that my form didn't work for the poem to try new things. But share your poems with people, you know, even prior to submitting and get their feedback because effectively what you're doing is putting them out into a world for people to receive them. So show them to your loved ones, show them to your friends, show them to anyone who has any sort of poetic experience who will be able to give you a good bit of

criticism. My best poems have come out of writing workshops where someone's gone, oh well, have you actually tried maybe writing it in this format instead? And have you actually tried maybe changing this word for this one. And those are the ones that have gone on to to win things or go through magazines. And I'm so grateful for all of the advice that I've got kind of throughout my poetic risk. For current themes, write what's important to you, write what feels real and serious and fun and lovely. And your best work will absolutely come out of that. But Joe, I'd love to hear your advice as well. I mean, I'd absolutely second what you've been saying, Maya, and I think the question is a really interesting one because it captures a preoccupation that a lot of young writers around the

world have, which is that there is a type of writing that is meant to win awards. That is the right type of writing, and it's a complete fallacy. I mean, obviously there are themed competitions, so don't submit a nature poem to, you know, an apocalyptic themed contest. I mean, if we told you that the kind of poetry that's going to win awards in 2025 is going to subscribe to a particular ideology or be about a particular political or geopolitical issue, that doesn't mean that you're the right person to write that poem. So rather than trying to cater to perceived perceptions of the right subject matter or the right form, I agree with Maya wholeheartedly, write the poems that speak to you because those are the ones you're going to do the best job

of writing anyway. And ultimately, those are the ones that are going to allow you to put your best foot forward. Now, Joe, there's actually a question from another one of our listeners, Ryan, which I'd really love to ask you, especially given that some of your favorite poems are poems in translation. Now, Ryan says, this is a question I've been wondering for the longest. How does poetry change when it's translated from different languages? And can you truly enjoy a poem outside its mother tongue? Well, it's a great question. And thank you, Ryan. First of all, I'll deal with the end of the question first, yes, you can absolutely enjoy them. And as we've said, you know, anybody who tells you can't enjoy a poem is lying to you because it's not up to them, it's up to

you. So in terms of personal enjoyment, you absolutely can. Now, whether or not a translated poem will ever truly capture the essence of the original is a much more difficult question. First of all, there are a lot of brilliant, brilliant translators out there who are doing fabulous, fabulous work. And oftentimes, the act of translation is almost the act of rewritings. That can be really difficult because, of course, you know, if you're trying to translate a poem that has a strict rhyme scheme and a strict metre into a different language, but trying to capture the meaning, capture the essence, I mean, good luck, because that's a really, really tough job. I think the best translations that I think of are the ones that focus on the essence of what

the poem is trying to say rather than the specifics of how it does it in its original language. And just an example, you know, I don't know whether Ryan's question perhaps pertains to any attempt of his own to translate. But while I was at university, I did a brilliant module at the University of York, which was about the poetry of Federico Garthio Lorca. And there he is again, his third mention of the episode. I remember having to translate a brilliant poem from Lorca's Gypsy Ballads. And we were trying to translate this line. And the line that we effectively translated, if we did it literally, was something like the soapy dolphin writhing in the bath. And the poem had nothing to do with a dolphin and nothing to do with the bath.

What that speaks to is poems that deal with particularly abstract, surreal or vivid imagery, especially metaphorical language, it's a mind-field to translate. It's really hard to do, but my goodness, it's a worthwhile endeavour. If nothing else, it will give you a brilliant appreciation for how good those translators are that I mentioned. But, yeah, I mean, you can absolutely enjoy it, and you should, because if you only read poetry, either written in your original language, or you refuse to read poems that have been translated into your original language for fear they won't do a good enough job, you're only hurting yourself there, because there's great work out there, and it's brilliantly

translated. I mean, I'd absolutely like to echo that sentiment in that translators do an incredible job. They are widening the doors of understanding and access. And it's really important to read poems that are in translation or even literature that's in translation full stop, because if you are stuck in in a certain box of reading one specific type of literature or one specific type of poetry that is only written in, let's say, the English language, you're absolutely limiting yourself. But I'd really like to pick up on what Ryan asks, where he says, how does poetry change when it's translated? And I think it's a fascinating question, because if you can't read the original and all you can read as the translated, you don't know. It's really a guessing game,

and it can imagine it's very, very tough for people who can read both, who probably have very different interpretations of the poem in its mother tongue and the poem in its translated form because nobody can ever perfectly replicate things. I mean, you know, even in the English language, as we were saying before, if you read one poem out and then your friend reads another and then the poet actually reads it, you're all going to deliver it with a slightly different cadence, a slightly different tone, a different speed, and that will impact its reception. How does poetry change when it's translated from different languages? My answer is would be it changes the exact same way it would if anybody else were to write it or anybody else

were to read it. I think it's a really beautiful thing to have the opportunity to read a poem in translation. But for Ryan, where he asks, would you not lose items like rhythm meter music? Yes, but translation is such a skill and they do a fantastic job of picking up the essence of what that poem is trying to convey or they choose what is most important. important to that poem, whether it is the musicality, whether it is the meter or the rhythm. Yes, you lose some things, but you also gain so much more. I would love to add to that as well, that definitely respects and think these translators are amazing. And the first thing that comes to my mind are haikus from Japanese poetry, where it's

clearly the meter is super important in having the 575 syllables. And you'll see with most of the translations to English, they keep with the 575. And considering just how little room they've got to move in terms of their word count and so far, I think that's absolutely amazing. So, yeah, that's the first thing that comes to mind. If you want to look at translations, Ryan, definitely gone to www.com. We've got quite a few Haikus Analyze on there from some of the greats. Well, unfortunately, that is all we have time for today. I've definitely learned a lot from this conversation. So thank you so much, Will, for coming on and talking to us.

It was fascinating to learn a little bit more about your background as well. So I really hope listeners found it interesting and are ready to tune in to our next episode, which will be on Shakespeare's Sonnet. But for now, it's goodbye from me. And it's goodbye for me. Thank you for our host to me, guys. It's been the pleasure.