BibleProject - Can We Be Agents of Chaos With Good Intentions? – Chaos Dragon Q+R 2

Episode Date: December 18, 2023

Does the dragon always deceive humans into sinning? Can we become agents of chaos even when our intentions are good? What does it mean that Satan “entered into” Judas at the last supper? In this episode, Tim and Jon respond to your questions from the second half of the Chaos Dragon series. Thank you to our audience for your thoughtful questions!View more resources on our website →Timestamps Does the Dragon Always Deceive Humans Into Sin? (00:00-7:36)Are the Scales in Paul’s Eyes a Reference to the Dragon? (7:36-14:22)Are the Dragon Rahab and Rakhab in Jeremiah Connected? (14:22-21:22)Was the Chaos Dragon Created To Be Evil? (21:22-26:55)Can We Become Agents of Chaos Even With Good Intentions? (26:55-32:03)What Does It Mean That Satan “Entered” Judas? (32:03-47:45)Referenced ResourcesLiddell and Scott's Greek-English LexiconThe New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, James StrongKilling a Messiah: A Novel, Adam WinnInterested in more? Check out Tim’s library here.You can experience our entire library of resources in the BibleProject app, available for Android and iOS.Show Music “Defender (Instrumental)” by TENTSShow produced by Cooper Peltz with Associate Producer Lindsey Ponder, Lead Editor Dan Gummel, and Editors Tyler Bailey and Frank Garza. Mixed by Tyler Bailey. Podcast annotations for the BibleProject app by Hannah Woo. Audience questions compiled by Christopher Maier.Powered and distributed by Simplecast.

Hey Tim. Hey John. Hi. We have come to the end of a very long series on the KS creature. KS Dragon. The Dragon. And we released the video. Yeah real time just a couple days ago. In real time, a couple days ago, so by the time this is out, it'll probably be a month or so. And we're really proud of it. Oh man, it's so cool. Really, really cool. Stunning. Stunning. Our animation studio, I did themselves, Patrick Murphy's director, just really wrestling with us. How to like visualize all these things. Yeah. We wrote a six minute script that turned into a three and a half minute script under kind of their direction. Yep. Which I think it just feels really good. It moves really fast. It gives you all the right ideas.

It does make you have to then go and do some of your own work. Yeah. It raises so many questions that it does not answer. So if you follow the podcast, it feels like, wow, what a cool video. If this is brand new to you, It's like is this in the really? I know is this the Bible really against in the Bible? What are you? Yeah, totally I've actually just anecdotally as we've been going through the series have had multiple people Share it with me. This is a brand new set of images and ideas. Yeah, they'd had no idea any of this was in their Bible Yeah, which is so awesome and it's fascinating because this is not

a small theme in the Bible. Like there are dragons in all the parts of the Bible. Yeah. So anyway, it's been really fun. And it does generate a zillion questions that the video can't wrap up. And this podcast series has raised lots of questions that you have been sending in.

So we're just gonna, you know, go for as many as we can. So should we just go for it? Okay. Let's start with a question from Tyler in Michigan. Hi, this is Tyler in Ann Arbor, Michigan. This series has led me to meditate on the role that deception plays in sin. I'm wondering what implication stem from humans being deceived into sin by the snake, rather than choosing it independently.

In Luke 23, Jesus seems to touch on this when he asks forgiveness for his killers while stating that they don't know what they are doing. How should the centrality of deception as a part of sin inform our view of both justice and how to live as Christians? Yeah, it's a great question. That's a really good question. Yes. We didn't talk about that much that I can think of. Yeah, but I appreciate it because I have been becoming more aware of the importance of deceit, deception,

in moments in the biblical story that are all patterned after each other, starting with the snake. It is super important that the first story of somebody doing anything wrong in the Bible is a morally innocent couple being deceived and to doing the opposite of what God said. So they're culpable in that, like God said. They could have listened to God's voice. They could have. But they were deceived.

They were deceived by a crafty and a room serpent. Yeah. And then that snake is connected to the chaos forces connected to the waters and the Tani and the dragon. Yeah. In Genesis 1. And that theme of deception is huge in the Hebrew Bible. People dealing untruthily. It's a main theme in the Jacob stories. Right from the beginning, it's a main theme of the Joseph stories.

It's a big theme in the laws of the Torah. There's a lot about truth-telling connected to Oathes and Vows. And then you read on into the Hebrew Bible, Joshua Judges Samuel Kings, there's all these stories of people tricking each other, deceiving each other. And they're all ways when humans don't behave honestly. Yeah. It's chaos.

We introduce chaos. We were just recently reading a Psalm where, like being kind of a righteous person, person living in right relationships, they're not accepting bribes on behalf of the innocent. And they're not like talking bad about people. It's kind of like you can create a web of deception and like falsehood with your actions. And that's like a tragedy. Yeah. So you're right. When Jesus forgives the soldiers crucifying him, they don't know what they're doing.

That is very much a part of the Bible's portrait of the human condition. Sometimes our moral compass is so skewed, our desires are so misdirected and distorted that we will do bad. Thinking it's good. Thinking that it's good. And so even that is a kind of self deception.

Like very rare is the person who does bad because it's bad. It's usually because they actually find some kind of good in it, at least for them, even if it's a really distorted kind of good. Right. So there's a self deception. I think that's what the Cain story is about.

There's something crouching and there's imagination that wants to get at some good, at least for him, even if it costs a life of good. Because the good he wants is God's favor. Yeah, that's a good thing to want. It's not a bad thing to want. The deception is then how does he get it? Yeah.

And that deception is crouching. Yeah. To have him. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we did talk about how this helps me, I think, reframe a lot of times when I'm offended by someone to remember like it's very often that they are trying to do the the right thing in their mind. It's a strategy that's harming me. They're not doing it to harm me necessarily, or at least I could see if there's actual, what those intentions are, and off to assume, kind of the equal, that we're all kind of living

in our own web of deceptions that are influencing us in ways. Yeah, it seems like this understanding of truth and deception, of self-deception also really underlies Jesus' ethic in the sermon on the mount. I mean, responding to enemies with prayer and blessing. Taking the speck out of your own eye before fixing the other person. Yeah, non-violent, creative responses to evil, instead of just straight up retaliation, that requires that kind of empathy

to be able to try and see through even, you know, the eyes of people who have hurt you or are hurting you, to at least see like I can at least understand how someone could be so self deceived to do what they're doing right now. It's a kind of empathy. And yeah, this is a big part of the biblical author's portrait of human nature and how humans become agents and use the power of the chaos dragon often because we're duped

into thinking that that is the good way to go about trying to get something. So it does Tyler, I think I agree with you and it's kind of an implication of the chaos dragon theme. None of us really know when we're acting the dragon. Yeah. It both allows us to try to have more empathy for the other, but also be more introspective for yourself. Yes. Yeah. Does both things. Way more self-critical. Which is the speck in the eye parable. Mm-hmm. That's right. Right. That's right. Exactly right. Cool. Yeah. Thank you, Tyler. It's a great question. Now let's hear a question from Rebecca in Iowa. Hello. I'm Rebecca from Indianola, Iowa, and as I have listened to the podcast about the chaos dragon My mind can't help but go to the New Testament when Jesus calms the storm or

When he invites Peter to walk on the water or when the skills fall from Paul's eyes When did you say those stories are connected to the chaos dragon? When did you say those stories are connected to the chaos dragon? Cool, you know, we do talk about Jesus walking the water. Yeah, the question probably came before that. Yeah, the scales and the eyes We have about that totally so there were many people who sent in questions about the things that fall off of Paul's eyes In Acts 9 so many that I was like, well, I got well, I got to make sure we talk about this. So you're right. In the podcast and the video, we don't know what a cool scene in the game. Yeah, Jesus trampling on the waters. Can you ask the vith and waters? So definitely, Jesus walking on water, inviting Peter out.

So we did talk about that, but not the scales from the eyes and to be honest, it never even occurred to me But that was related So a lot of people occurred to them. It occurred to them. So awesome way to go. Yeah reading and community reading and community So I did look it up though and here's what's super fascinating so in Acts chapter 9 Which begins with Saul which is going by their eshebraname, this is Roman, or Greek name is Paul. Oh, so his name didn't change when he started following Jesus. It seems like he was known mainly as Saul in his

previous life. It seems like he was known by both, but mainly as Paul in the Jesus movement, but he's called back and forth. It's not like his name changed. Anyway, after his vision of Jesus, he goes blind. Yeah, that's a key part of the story. And then he goes to this guy's house name and anias, who gets up and prays for him. And then we're told that he regains his sight and is filled with God's spirit, and immediately their fell from his eyes, something like scales, and he regained his sight. It's a very strange little detail.

This word, scales, appears only here in the Greek New Testament. Oh. It's not a common word. Correct. However, this is so wonderful. This is like just genuine discovery. It's so fun. So if you look up in the classical Greek English lexicon

of Liddell and Scott, so it's not just New Testament, it's all of classical Greek literature. So the word is Laplace emphasis on the second syllable. Laplace. Sounds French when you say it that way. So scale, it can refer to like the layer of an onion. Okay. That's in lucidities.

It can refer to the scales of fish that's in herodotus. And also of serpents, specifically in Aristotle and Necander. Seized of snake scales, but also just finished out the list of other things you can talk about if there's a blacksmith who's hammering out copper and there are little shards or pieces of copper flying off. That happens been I imagine it be so valuable you wouldn't have a shard. I don't know but that shard is a is a yeah Dia score Dia score a D's of the first century uses this word he calls it lipis calcoov flakes of copper okay that fly off when a blacksmith is hammering it

Okay, it can also refer to really thin sheet metal. Yeah, that makes sense. Why would? Yeah, but anyway, it can be used of fish scales and of snake scales. And then, so this is fascinating. So the word doesn't occur elsewhere in the Greek New Testament. It does, however, appear in the Greek Septuagint. The Greek translation, the Hebrew Bible. The Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible and where does that appear in the Greek Septuagint. The Greek translation, the Hebrew Bible. The Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible,

and where does that appear in particular? It appears in the kosher food list, and specifically talking about things that live in the water that have scales. Yeah. And Leviathan would definitely qualify as that. So all that to bring us back to, what are we supposed to imagine

and what is the significance of something like scales coming off of Saul's eyes? It's really fascinating. Because what the story is talking about is his own self to see or his own. Yes, yeah, that's right. Preconceptions about who Jesus, the crucified one was. And he was like, he was going at it. Like, he was in a way, weaponizing the snake towards,

like, let's get these Christians. Yeah, that's right. A rest, getting followers of Jesus, arrested, unfairly put on trial, and then subjected to really terrible fates. And he was using violent coercion to try and stop out the Jesus movement. He was being sneaky. It's a pretty sneaky move. And then something like, it's called, it qualifies it. Something like scales fell from his eyes. So we're at least being invited to see something, what do you say,

in aquatic creature, something like a reptilian or a scaly water creature. He's shedding something associated with aquatic monsters. That's really fascinating. So I haven't done other than looking things up in concordances and lexicon. I would be curious. I would want to survey now all my acts, commentaries, and see if anybody has notes on that. There's ever been any essays written that would be the next step to see. Like, have other people seen this? Did people see this in the ancient readers of Acts? That would be the next place to go. But anyway, Rebecca, thank you for bringing that tonight.

Sounds like many people. My attention. Yeah, a lot of people did. But Rebecca, you asked the question in the most succinct for it. Okay. So now you know how to get on the podcast. At least a sink. Yeah, so how cool is that?

Snaky eyesight. You can see things in a snaky way. And then act accordingly. That's terrifying. It's a really good image. Yeah, take the scale away. I said good image, you said terrifying. Oh, it's a good, terrifying image.

It's a good, terrifying image. Yep. Okay, here's another question. Oh, yeah, this actually is also a question that was asked by many people. And we're going to hear Zeb ask it who's from Tasmania. Hey team and John, my name is Zeb and I'm from Tasmania in Australia. You guys in the whole above project team are amazing and you're such a blessing. You briefly mentioned in episode 12, Rehab, and you linked the name and title to the Seamonster image.

I'm just tracing my mind to the book of Joshua and Rehab who lived in Jericho. Jericho means fragrance. Is there some sort of inverted link between Rehab's name and character portrayed against the city of Jericho and its name and character in the story. Rayhab seems to be the only thing of fragrance in Jericho and the city itself is more like

the chaotic sea dragon. Am I reading this right? What are your thoughts? Keep up the incredible work. Thanks. Exhaub. Okay, great. This is one of those elements where I love that so many people, when they learned

that Rahav was a name for the Sea Dragon, especially in the poetic books, the prophets and the Psalms, but it's a uniquely Israelite name. And then people think of the character, the book character, the prostitute, Rahab, who lived and rescued the spies in senior Joshua. So first off, I love that people are seeing the connection because that's totally how hyperlinks work. It also is a good opportunity to say that learning some facility to learn how to use original language, concordances, or lexicons can be real helpful. Because in this case, even though the names are spelled the same in English, they are different in Hebrew. So Rahav the dragon is from Raish, He, Bate, Rahav, spelled like it sounds in English, which is from a verb, Rahav, to like a raging storm. The raging one is the dragon name.

The Rahab in Jericho is a different word, even though it's spelled the same thing in English. Yeah, it's a raish, reit, bit, so Rahav, which means to be broad or wide open. Wait, there's a soft age and a hard age. Yeah, there's he, just like R-H, and then there's H-H-T, which is H-H-H. So that's the character. In English, we don't have that, so we're just like H is fine. Yeah, although English translations could have put a K-H in that.

That's true with the K-H. That's what you do. That's what I do. To represent H-H-T. Yeah. R-W-A-H. There's also C-H, which in English can sometimes Yes. Like Johann Sebastian Bach. Bach. Yeah. But normally it means chuh. Yes. And so if somebody doesn't know that and they say CH in English, they'll say Johann Sebastian Bach. So I prefer the transliteration CH for the letterayp. In which case would be rachav?

Okay. So it's a different word. Sounds familiar. What's the word I'm thinking of? Compassion? Oh, racham. Racham. Racham, yeah.

Okay, that's the kh. Yep, that's right. So there's actually not a connection between rachav, the raging dragon and rachav, the character in Joshua chapter two. But you know, this is a lesson I learned at congrats at school. My, one of my main teachers, my advisor

from my dissertation, Michael Fox. He was a scholar of, especially of the wisdom literature. He's written a lot of commentaries on those books. And he instilled in me the value that sometimes when you research a negative conclusion is just as valuable as like a positive discovery. Meaning. Meaning when you come to an idea you ask a question. Yeah. Research that leads you to a negative answer. Nope. I thought that that was the thing. You're still learning something. But now I know that's not a thing. It feels

less exciting. Because it's not discreet. It feels like the absence of it. Yeah, but both types of insight. And really we were talking about dissertation topics once. And I was telling them some ideas that I had. And so I don't even remember what it was. One idea was I think, you know, people think this and I think that that's wrong. But a whole dissertation just to say that people think this, and I always think that that's wrong. But a whole dissertation just to say that people think this, but it's wrong. And he was like, no, that's very valuable. That's just as valuable.

It's like, here's something that nobody stopped before. Okay. And- Well, I think especially then, if it's something that is a popular wrong thing to think. Oh, then it's like deep bunking. Then it's deep bunking. Yeah, misbusters.

People like to do that. I mean, you just did that with Paul's name earlier. Oh, that's true. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And sometimes that that's helpful. Yeah. Anyway, so Zeb and all those who asked the question wondered about connection to. Yeah, you're on the quest. You're using the skills. Yes. So what do I do? Okay, like I make that connection. I'm reading reading in English. What tool do I use? Yeah, so it depends on what tools you have. You could go to something like blue letter Bible, dot or word. That's a free one.

And find one of their English versions. So I'm gonna put in, I'm in blue letter Bible, Joshua, what verse would I do? Ah, you could just do Joshua 2 verse 1. Okay. And if I click on Tools, then it gives me an insert linear, which means it's going to show me the Hebrew while it shows me the English. Yep, that's right.

And you scroll down. Scroll down and it's like every English word's on the left, the Hebrew's on the right. Yeah, her name's almost the last word. Yep. And then there's that H7343, is that strong? Yes, so strong's concordance, it's an old tool, but they've given every original language word a number. Mm-hmm.

And then with the digital tool like this, you can then click on that. Here's the sound. Strong's H 73 43, Rahav, Rahav. There it is. There it is. And then you can see it in Hebrew. We're just a little intimidating for us lay people.

But then you can click on the strongs. And there it is. There's all, this is a free strongs concordance online. Yeah, that's what Blue Letter Bible offers is the digital strongs concordance. But then a way to search for it and see everything, and it's great. That's right.

If you're in a digital Bible software, there's also ways you can. If you got Logos or something, you mean? Yep, yeah, and you can look up, just in a couple clicks, all the other places where that occurs. So in this case, what you notice is, oh, those passages in Isaiah never are not connected at all

to the name of this female character from Joshua. Chapter two. So there you go. Way to go, John, you made this a real practical learning opportunity. Good job. Yeah. All right, next, let's hear a question from Wayne in Georgia.

Hi, this is Wayne from Atlanta, Georgia. And my question is, is the chaos dragon evil because of what it is or is it evil because of what it does? Thank you. Great question. Yeah. What makes something evil versus wrong. Yes, so the first Q and R episode that we did in the Chaos Dragon, most of the questions

we pulled together were about this. Yeah. So that would be a place to go back, but we didn't quite hit the question in this way and this concise, so I thought it would be good to teet up again. Yeah. So yeah, one way to say is what is the word evil mean in the Bible? Another one would be to say is, what does it mean to say that a creature is evil? It is evil. That is, in its essence, is evil. So here's

the one first way to respond, there's probably multiple ways to respond. One is that in Genesis 1, which is where the dragon is first mentioned on day five, the Tannin. It's good, Tanninin. It is a part of what is called good for day five. You know, I thought about that more. It's the Chaotic Sea itself.

It's, you know, and what God is doing is it's putting boundaries. Yes. So it seems like the it's putting boundaries. Yes. So it seems like the boundary making is good. Yeah. But is also the sea now also in some way good? Yeah, what is called good is both the ordered realms of skyland and sea, each with a boundary. That's good.

But then day five is just about the filling of the waters with the creatures. That's true. But doesn't the tannine there represent also the Chaotic Sea, the creature represents the castles. Yeah, the Chaotic Sea represents non-creation, disorder, and then the dragon there is using one of the dragon-taming strategies that the biblical authors have, which is to downgrade it from a cosmic deity that's rival to the Creator God.

Because if it's just an image of the chaotic waters, that's clearly not good. The chaotic waters in and of itself needs ordering. Yeah, that's right. Which is why there's no good on day two. Okay. On day two, God separates the waters from the waters. Ah, nothing is pronounced good. Okay. Because the waters from the waters. Ah, nothing is pronounced good. Okay.

Because the waters are, they're not, they are no thing. They're non-order. And the dragon was the most famous ancient symbol of when the non-order of, not disordered nothingness, all of a sudden has some agency. And when that symbol has some agency, it's just another creature. God's good world. Yeah, so according to Genesis 1, no creature, animal or human, is in its essence evil. Creation in its essence is an expression of the generous mind of God. And it doesn't mean it's always safe, but nothing in creation is in its essence evil.

Got it. According to Genesis 1. Yeah. life, but nothing in creation is in its essence evil. Got it. According to Genesis 1. Yeah. So, in that sense, the dragon as a symbol of disorder is sort of like a neutral, morally neutral, the same way a bear or a lion is morally neutral. But when intelligent creatures, spiritual or human use the power of the dragon on each other. That's evil.

Now, by evil we mean there's a moral intent to destroy. Exactly. To undo good. To undo good. Yeah, because that's what evil is. It's the undoing of good in biblical thought. But it's like a purposeful undoing of good. That's right.

Yeah, that's right. Okay. Yeah. So a simple answer when your question is anything in the Bible can be described as evil because of what it does, not because of what it is. So in biblical thought, any creature that does evil is actually violating its own essence, which is why it's a form of self-destruction. It's interesting how when Job talks about the Leviathan, he's kind of like, just, if I can remember correctly. When God, God in the book of Job, or Job. Right.

God in the book of Job. Job both talk about it. Oh, well, maybe it's one, I don't remember, but it's like, he's just kind of an awe of the creed string. He's just like, don't stand in its way. Oh, sure. It's good, you're going to get't stand in its way. Oh, sure. It's good, you're gonna get a thrashing. Yeah, that's right.

And the sense you get of it is like, not because it's evil, it's because it's just strong, and it thrashes. And so if you get in its way, you're gonna get beat down. But he doesn't have the sense of like, this moral evil. No, a moral evil, it's not. Yeah, so there, yeah, God is describing the dragon

in its kind of classic sense in the ancient context of an agent of disorder. But when that symbol is applied to a spiritual being that uses violence and disorder to accomplish it's purposes, which is classically what the word the satan means. And Jewish thought, now we're talking about something that's choosing moral evil. But again, not in its essence evil, because nothing, according to Genesis 1, is in its essence evil. Even the chaotic waters is not in its essence evil. Right. It's just nothing. It's disorder, non-sister. Yeah. Yeah. essence evil and just just it's just it's nothing it's disorder non-order yeah yeah so it's hard we're entering another culture's way viewing the world which is why it's takes effort to wrap our

minds around it but there you go great all right we've got another question from Ulrika in England hi Tim and John my name is Ulrika and I'm from Luton in England. You've said that humans can become agents of chaos and that's easy to see with people we might consider evil, such as Nebuchadnezzar or Hitler. However most people don't set out to cause chaos, so often we become agents of chaos inadvertently or without intending to be. I'd love your thoughts on that. Thanks so much for what you do. Bye. Yeah, this is connected to the self-deception. Yes, back in the first motif that Tyler had us talk about. Yeah, exactly. I brought up. Yeah. Yeah, it's just good reminder, like, it's so easy to point at the other and see the chaos.

And it's so hard to see it in yourself and with your people, like your crew. It's like, we can be really empathetic with our friends and family, to the point where we don't see the true like chaos that's being created that we should be aware of. Yeah, you know, even one way of thinking about some of the most intractable, impossible conflicts in history or in our world is usually between irreconcilable differences of who

thinks who is unleashing chaos. Right. You know? And so, I mean, just pick any of the conflicts raging in the world today. And yes, there are occasionally individuals who delight in doing evil. But even then, there's usually some aspect of some good thing, even if it's only good for them, that they think they're pursuing. And then when you scale that communally, right, it's very easy to see the destructive implications of another group's behavior. And that might make me then think, well, of course, if I'm against that, then like, where are the good guys? And it blinds me to maybe destructive implications

of my responses to that. In which case, it's like two dragons battling each other. It's probably the most honest way to look at it. Yeah, you know, we've, I think we talked about Thanos before in some conversation. But it seems like the best bad guys in cinema are ones that actually don't think of themselves as a bad guy They think of themselves as the hero of their own story. Oh, yes, right right and yeah, Thanos wanted to save the universe

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, he like destroying half of it. I just drank half of it. That's right Yeah, and so you kind of like he becomes this character where And so you kind of like, he becomes this character where he's such an interesting bad guy. And yeah, I just find that we can appreciate that in art, a lot more than appreciate it in ourselves. In ourselves, yeah, yep, that's right. Yeah, I think the takeaways probably in two directions. So thank you, Otorika, for asking it,

because it both should invite critical reflection, like we were talking about earlier, the spec in my eye, before I look at the log in another person's eye. But then also really trying to see that log in the other person's eye, like maybe how could I try to imagine life through their eyes? And maybe there actually is something to it. And you know, what I see as a log, but maybe it's actually something more like a small twig. If I could really see what they're after, what's the good that they are after, but in a destructive way? And what

are the good things that I'm after through even unintentionally destructive ways? So, yeah, I think it's a really valuable theme, especially in the Chaos Dragon series, because we had a question in the last Q&R episode about how this image is potentially dangerous. If it can be used as a label, like you're the dragon, we're the dragon slayers. Yeah, so it's good that we kill you.

You know, and well, keep talking about Sermon on the Mount. Sermon mounts on our brain. Yeah, that it's good that we kill you. You know, and well, keep talking about sermon on the mount. Hmm, sermon mounts on our brain. Yeah, that's right. Because next year, yeah, sermon on the mount. So I'm thinking about Jesus saying, do not murder. You've heard it said, do not murder. Don't call. I say to you, don't call your brother full.

Don't say you fool. It's like this label. Yeah. Of like when you label someone, that's like you're on the road to destroying them. You know some of the cruelest like leaders, they will dehumanize people with these labels that then makes it feel okay to then do horrible things to them. So there is that danger of like when we point at someone else and say the dragon.

Yeah, it was over there. We reduce their image of God complexity to. So Jesus says, hey, when you see the speck that you think's the dragon, like first look inward, deal with your own dragon. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, glad we keep coming back to that. I think that's really good.

Yeah, me too. Yeah, agreed. Interesting question from Tom in England. Hi Tim and John, this is Tom from Bristol in England. I'm a big fan of your podcast. In John 13 we read of Satan himself entering Judas at the last supper before he goes out into the night to cause Jesus' arrest. This seems very connected to the theme of people becoming

snakes and being participant of chaos. I wonder if this is the most ultimate or climactic way in which this can happen and what if epa might really mean for Satan to have entered him. Many thanks for all you do. Hmm. Is it the most climactic way in which this can happen? Yeah. Yeah. Is this scene of Judas, Satan entering Judas? Yeah. Like is there like kind of this climactic moment here of showing what it looks like to become the Chaos creature? Yeah, so let's go back.

Let's leave the last supper for a moment and go back. So we have the snake in the garden where deception is a key theme. And so the snake influences through a false distortion of reality and putting that in front of people's imaginations. Then the cane story, even though it's implicit and we've had to meditate on it for years, there's something about him, an idea entering his mind that is called sin that's like an animal that wants him. And then when he acts on that, he murders his brother in the field. So it were being asked to see some kind of influence, like a beastly

influence on his imagination. And so that's when we introduce that image of putting on the costume. Another way to say it is you incarnate, you become an embodiment as it were of the dragon. So the cane story really kicks off that motif and then you get lemmeck and then all these moments later in the story where people start doing horrible things to each other were meant to have like the cane template, you know, kind of underlying all of that. later in the story where people start doing horrible things to each other, we're meant to have the cane template, kind of underlying all of that, which is why people can be called dragons. So what's interesting then is John uses two phrases actually. All the way back in John chapter 13, we need to describe, okay, so I hold on. So Judas, Judas is the person who got Jesus arrested.

So if Jesus is portrayed as the seed of the woman here to crush the head of the snake, but the snake gets a strike, right? Not the heel of the snake crusher. Judas is that one. Like he was... He lets the snake out of the cage. Yeah, that's right.

Of sorts. I mean, he like lowers the snake in. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Of sorts. I mean, he like, who wears a snake in? Yeah, so let's just pause and just say that he's a very significant figure in the story of Jesus. Okay. You have to imagine after that first generation in the Jesus movement, Judas fell real low on like the boy baby name list.

So I think it still isn't a famous, real popular one. It's the word Judah. Yeah, and that one you hear, you still use Judah, but not with the S on the end. And then he becomes an archetypal kind of bad guy, but let's get under this. Okay, and here's, okay, hold on though. I never understood what they have known

who Jesus was without Judas. Like, you take him out of the story, they could have still found Jesus, they could have still arrested Jesus. Like, he is an important out of the story. They could have still found Jesus. They could have still arrested Jesus. Like he is an important part of the story, but is he that critical to the like the logic chain of Jesus getting arrested? Oh, I think so.

Jesus was super secretive in that last week. He was retiring to secret places, secretly arranged places. But when he was out in public, he was in the temple courts. And we're told there that they- And why didn't they just get him there? Ah, multiple times in Mark, Luke, and Matthew, because he was so popular, that they arrested him there in public,

they didn't want to cause a riot. Okay, so there's political kind of motivations of how they want to do it. Yeah, so it had to be a low profile. Okay. And at the end of each day Jesus would just slip out of the crowds and then he was gone into these. So at least that's how the story's presented. So Judas is the one who reveals his whereabouts at night.

Okay. But that's a great question. I can see why I can totally see why I think that. At least that's how the gospel author is portrayed. Okay. He's the, the link. I just live in a time where it's like the government knows where I am at any point. Oh, sure. I mean, it's like, if anyone took me out,

yeah, I think it's in a missile directly to me right now. Okay. It's not, it's not, not like that. It's not like that. I can slip away. It wasn't like that. I could be like James Bond and just slip away. What do you say if there's a spy movie, Judas is the mole? Uh-huh, yeah. You know? Yeah. Okay. So as the gospel authors look back on that sequence of events, their portraying Jesus as the snake

crusher, Judas is the key person who delivers the Son of Man over into the hands of the beast. And so the Gospels have different ways of describing how that happened. John chapter 13 begins saying during the supper, the Diabolus, or the translated the devil, but the slanderer, the accuser. So the accuser had already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Son of Simon, to betray him. So there, that's kind of using the cane model right there, in this purpose, in the heart. Yeah, what is Judas Want here?

Totally. Okay, so actually you want to know what Judas Want's in the heart. Yeah. What does Judas want here? Totally. Okay. So, actually, you want to know what Judas wants, and you want a great piece of historical fiction. There's a New Testament scholar, Adam Wynn, who wrote a really well-informed historical novel about the backstory of why Judas does what he does. It's called Killing a Messiah. I listen he does. It's called killing a Messiah. I listen to it.

It's wonderful. It's really. And the goal is to get an empathetic understanding of why would somebody betray someone like Jesus? And why would the chiafists and the high priests how would they perceive Jesus and why did they do what they did? Why would Pilate? Who is He and why did they do what they did? Yeah. Well, I would pilot. Who was he? Why did he do it? He did. Okay. And they create a backstory that's all historically informed. Yeah. But one of the clues is Judas. Oh, well, one we know that he was, what do you say, filtering money from their purse? John tells us that.

What do you say, Filching Money from their purse? John tells us that. That they would use brick and silver. He's breaking that already. Yeah, he's totally right. So, we know that Jesus' Kingdom of God message and movement and his acceptance of the word Messiah, that title very sparingly, meant that Jesus knew he was walking on the knife's edge, with being perceived as yet another militant, like revolutionary, who's going to overthrow the Roman occupation, unseat the high priesthood, you know, in a stat like the Meccabees did, you know, not long ago in Jesus' day. So that's the angle that Adam Winne explores in his representation of Judas. And that seems likely, because

what would cause somebody to be attracted to a leader and then become disillusioned with them and then eventually sell them out? He becomes concerned that he's gonna try to take power. No, in this case it would be the opposite. It's when he begins to learn that he's not going to do that and that he's actually going to die. He came to Jerusalem to die and he thinks that's how he's going to save the world. Okay. And...

So I might as well get on the good side, the winning side. Yeah, that's right. So this guy's going to think he's going to die. He's not going to start a freedom movement, but all the people love him. And what the temple leaders were told, they see Jesus as a threat because all the people love him. But yet he's claiming that the way that Israel is partnering with Rome. It's going to to destruction. It's gonna lead to destruction. And they think, well, this guy's gonna start a riot,

and this wouldn't be the first riot. This would be like the umpteenth riot in Jerusalem. The brought pilot to bring a heavy hand of death. Yeah, okay. He's trying to keep the peace. They're trying to keep the peace. Yeah. And so Judas is like, I see this is going, Jesus is gonna get taken out.

I should get on the side of the victors here so that I've got a place at the table. Yeah. Well, yeah. So there could be a selfish motive or there could also be like one thing Jerusalem doesn't need right now is another riot. Oh, okay. And so he's trying to like, hey, I'm going to deliver Jesus quietly. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Let's just do this behind closed doors. Oh, interesting. And like keep the status

quo. Mm-hmm. But it's such a deceit in what's really going on, what Jesus really needs to do. It's described in the Gospels as being tempted by the devil, what was it? The devil put it in his heart. Put it into his heart, yeah. Right? Because we know from Gios' teachings, for him, it's actually leading Israel to see that it's only by letting go of some vision that we have of how Israel is supposed to exist in the world, that this is a family called to give up everything and surrender over to God, even if that means death, to open up the gates of Eden and eternal life for the nations.

And that what Jesus believed was Israel's unique calling in the world to suffer, to unleash the life of Eden to the nations, and to not fear death. And Judas thought that was, apparently thought that was an insane move that was only going to bring more trouble. So the devil put it into his heart. Then later at the end of John 13, when it actually happens, what we're told is that the Satan entered into Judas. So he uses a different phrase, the Satan entered into him. So he has two ways of putting it, the devil, the slanderer, putting something into your heart, or the opposer entering into somebody. But that's

another way of thinking about Cain. Yeah. Two. Yeah, the sin crouching at the door, it was like putting the thought in his mind. I need to kill my brother. Mm-hmm. And then there's this like the vow,

then that's the monster devouring Cain is kind of this idea of incarnating, yeah. Like becoming one with. Yeah. Does feel like a two step process in a way. Putting the idea in, yeah, actually, and that's true. Anytime an idea enters our minds, we have the choice about whether to entertain

it, meditate on it. Yeah. And that can generate all kinds of other stuff. Or you can drive it out, just dump on it, to like be done with that thought. I think that's something like what Paul mentions. There's that kind of well-known line he uses about taking every thought captive for the Messiah. Yeah, second Corinthians. Rule in the thoughts. Yeah, so doing thoughts. Yeah. So anyway, thank you, Tom. I do think it is a way that John is showing a climactic moment of Jesus versus the power of the snake, that it takes over Judas.

But I think it's important not to minimize Judas' own journey and his own agency and participation in the way of the snake. Thank you for your questions. Yeah. Always really wonderful. Man, I think we spent nearly half of your talking about the dragon. Yeah, I guess 20, almost 20 episodes, something. Yeah, that's half of it. We started in August, the end of August.

It's worthy, worthy topic. I think so. Thanks for hanging in there with us. And I hope it was worth so many hours of conversation. And if you think, talk about one subject for six months, there's a lot of ways to make a subject for all over the Bible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, next year. Next year, three chapters of the Bible all year. That's a sermon on the Mount.

And I'm sure you've seen maybe a trailer of the sermon on the mount. But yeah, starting next year, we're going to be reading slowly. A sermon on the mount. We'll talk about it more next week. We'll have our end of the year podcast. We'll have Steve on. Yeah, yeah, Steve, our friend and fearless CEO of the Biore Project. Yeah. Yeah. Do kind of a year-end recap. We'll talk about a sermon on the mount. But since we have your attention right now, one way to engage with Sermon on the Mount is in the app. Oh, yeah.

We're gonna have this weekly playlist where we'll show you, we'll walk slowly through the Sermon on the Mount. And you can read it with us slowly and we'll give you videos and just clips of the podcast and articles that'll help you kind of engage with that part of the Sermon on the Mount.

And then of course, just on our YouTube channel, we'll be releasing things January 1. Yeah. We'll be the release of the first of a 10-part series on the Sermon on the Mount. Yeah. Lots of content on top of that. And so we're leaving the dragon behind and I'm sure he'll sneak up. Yeah, he's never, never far. Never far.

You're outside of Eden. He's always lurking around. But, so was the presence of the snake crusher. Mm, yeah. Okay. He's a lot stronger. Thanks, John. I really enjoyed doing the series together.

Yeah. And I'm really, really excited about what's gonna happen with the sermon on the mount. There's so much to explore and to learn and to be challenged by. So, yeah, 2024, here we come. Here we come. Here we come.

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