BibleProject - Day Of The Lord Part Six: Revelation and Jesus in Modern Politics

Episode Date: May 18, 2017

This is our final episode in our Day Of The Lord series. In this episode Tim and Jon discuss the book of Revelation. It's perhaps the most famous and obvious thing people think about when talking about a future “Day Of The Lord.” Tim and Jon dive in and tackle some of the tough imagery in Revelation. The guys also pose another penultimate question: When will Jesus come back? Spoiler alert: no one knows. The first ten minutes of the show talks about some of the New Testament and Pauline ideas on the Day of the Lord. Specifically coming from 1 Thessalonians. Then Tim and Jon move on and discuss Revelation. The last part of the show, beginning at 28:30 is dedicated to discussing modern political implications of following Jesus. How are Christians supposed to live in a world that has Babylonian tendencies? This episode is designed to accompany our new Day of the Lord video on our youtube channel. Check it out and let us know what you think: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBc2gSSW04&t=3s EPISODE RESOURCES Joshua Ryan Butler - The Skeletons in God's Closet http://joshuaryanbutler.com/books/the-skeletons-in-gods-closet/ Mere Fidelity Podcast - "The Righteous Mind": Jonathan Haidt’s thesis that conservatives and liberals are divided https://mereorthodoxy.com/mere-fidelity-righteous-mind/ EPISODE BIBLE REFERENCES 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 Revelation 5:1-10 and 19:11-19 Isaiah 63:1-4 EPISODE MUSIC Defender Instrumental by Rosasharn Music Where Peace and Rest are Found by Greyflood The Butler’s Son by Greyflood Next episode we will do a Day of the Lord Q+R. Have a question? Record it and send it to [e-mail]. Deadline 9am May 23rd 2017.

Hey, this is Cooper at Bible Project. I produce the podcast in Classroom. We've been exploring a theme called the City, and it's a pretty big theme. So we decided to do two separate Q and R episodes about it. We're currently taking questions for the second Q and R and we'd love to hear from you. Just record your question by July 21st

and send it to us at infoatbiboproject.com. Let us know your name and where you're from, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds and please transcribe your question when you email it in, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds, and please transcribe your question when you email it. That's a huge help to our team. We're excited to hear from you. Here's the episode.

This is the Bible Project Podcast. I'm John, and today on this episode I'm going to be talking with Tim McE about the Day of the Lord. This is the final in a six-part series on the Day of the Lord. So it's been a long journey but we're finally here. If you're just joining us I'd highly recommend you listen to the other five episodes. But if you're not going to, here's a couple ideas to be familiar with so you can keep up with conversation. The first word is Babylon. Babylon was an ancient civilization that Israel was captured by.

It represented to them a civilization in rebellion against God, a corrupt, injust, human system that God needs to upend. But in the Bible, Babylon becomes an archetype. It becomes a way of describing any civilization that's in rebellion against God. So Egypt is described as Babylon. Even Israel is described as Babylon. And the day of Jesus, Rome was considered Babylon. The second thing to keep in mind is this phrase, the day of the Lord.

Biblical authors use this phrase to describe when and how God intervenes in human history to stop corrupt civilizations, to destroy Babylon. In the last episode we talked about how Jesus came and how his death was considered a day of the Lord, and that's what we'll pick up this conversation again that will lead us into a conversation about the book of the Revelation. A book that's made Christians really scratch their heads and ask a lot of questions like, when's Jesus going to come back?

What's it going to look like? The final day of the Lord, what does it actually mean? And the biblical authors are not interested in giving us that information. It's like Paul says, concerning times and dates, I'm not going to write to you about that.

We'll finish this episode with a practical conversation, about what it means to be living in Babylon while waiting for the day of the Lord and participating in a new type of kingdom. Thanks for listening. Here we go. Okay, the home stretch on this theme of the Day of the Lord. We're going to talk about what the followers of Jesus thought of and how they used the phrase, Dave the Lord, and what that phrase, the Dave the Lord means to us now,

2000 years later. So then the question is, the day of the Lord in modern popular usage, she is the second coming, is a return, and the events leading up to that. What's interesting, there are two letters in the New Testament that they use the phrase Day of the Lord more than once, and it's Paul's first and second letter of the Thessalonians. And this was a church community that was having, they had a lot of questions about Jesus'

return and what was all going to happen and they were afraid. Can we stop for a second? Yeah. His return, why didn't it just end there? Like, so Jesus defeats death. And at that point could have been, the big D-Day of the Lord could have began. But instead, he appears to his disciples and he says,

like, go and proclaim this kingdom to the whole world and use the power of the Holy Spirit which I will give you. And then now we have been living in this era for 2,000 years where followers of Jesus are supposed to be living in this counter, creating a counter Babylon. But then Jesus promises that one day he will come back and defeat evil permanently. Then there will be the new age. Yeah. And, yeah, although the claim is that the day of the Lord, the victory actually did happen on Good Friday. Three, three.

That was the inauguration to use a theological term. But I find hopeful. It was like in the inaugural ceremony that truly placed Jesus as the Lord of heaven and earth. And he is truly raining. But not everyone knows. Yeah, not everyone knows, apparently. We're not everyone acknowledges it, like Pharaoh,

or Nebuchadnezzar, and not everyone responds appropriately. Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar before Jesus is doing it. Oh, I'm just using them as icons. Like Pharaoh said, I don't acknowledge Yahweh. Yeah, okay. So you have somebody who knows about Yahweh, they got him as real bitch. They don't acknowledge it.

They don't acknowledge that he, that. So people will know about Jesus, but don't acknowledge Him as their Lord. And then the delay has been a challenge for Christians from the very beginning. Second Peter addresses this where he responds to skeptics who said, yeah, everything's going on like it did before Jesus ever came. Right.

So did anything really change. And Peter's reflects on it and he says, listen, God works with long expanses of time. And he just had, you know, the basic biblical chronology. He just had an inkling of the time expanses involved. But he uses the language of Psalm 90 to say a thousand years, so how God works in history doesn't at all correspond to our perceptions of time. That's the point. And then he says, and it's God's mercy, that's giving you time to come to terms with your own mortality and participation in evil, so the overpent. So I mean, I'm with you.

It's a tough one. So the Sessalonians wrote to Paul and said, well, wait, what about followers of Jesus who died before he returns? What about them? Because it's like in the first generation. And so he writes in chapter four, don't worry. It's okay.

You know, Jesus can reclaim people from the dead, whether they're in the grave or alive, it's okay. And then what he calls it is the Lord's coming. And then right after that, he says, brothers and sisters, about times and dates, we're not gonna write to you. Can't predict this, no prophecy code for this. For you know very well that the day of the Lord, that's one of the key appearances in the New Testament

of that phrase. We'll come like a thief in the night while people are saying peace and safety. This was a public service announcement of the Roman Empire, the Pax Romana. Stay calm and peace., we're fine. Everything's fine. What was the British one? Stay calm and carry on. Stay calm, carry on. Peace and safety.

So he's even right here, he's poking at Rome's version of peace. Sure, true Shalom has come to the world through Rome at what cost? An enormous cost of the majority of the population or slaves and the gigantic army is securing that peace. And so he doesn't say Rome, but he doesn't need to. He just quotes the propaganda. And then he says, destruction will come on them.

And then he quotes different Old Testament prophets as labor pains on a pregnant woman they want to escape, both from the book of Isaiah. So Paul will appeal to the day of the Lord to talk about the Babylon of his day, namely Rome, and his basic counsel is, it's not about timelines in predicting this, just know that Jesus is Lord of heaven and earth and that your life and your death is power. So there he's talking about Rome falling not about the... Well, we're at the same. For him, it's the same thing with Nazea. Was Isaiah talking about the end of the world or the fall of Babylon? And so was Paul talking here about the fall of Rome or Jesus's ultimate return and defeat of Babylon.

And it doesn't seem like he even wants to think about those separate things. Because, again, in the biblical way of viewing history, it's the same narrative story. It's like looking forward, it's the same. When you look back, you go, oh, that was the day of the Lord. Oh, yes. Yes. Rome, with the day of Lord in Spavillon, but when you're looking forward to it, you don't distinguish between that and... Mm-hmm. And how could they know?

Right. I mean, we got good told him. Well, I'm sure, but apparently he didn't, because he says about times and dates, I'm not gonna write to you. So he doesn't say, well, Rome's gonna fall roughly in the 400s and like you could just put in a couple more thousand. Yeah.

In the same way, why Jesus doesn't draw a clear line between the fall of Jerusalem and his own return in the gospel. Because what they want, their listeners to see is that the same justice that God will bring on the whole world is exactly what's breaking into history right here in the fall of is all about the hope of Jesus' return is of course the last one, the book of Revelation. The whole book is about the conflict of the Kingdom of God brought through this lane lamb, the crucified Jesus, in conflict with the Kingdom of this world, which is only ever called...

Well, it's called Babylon through most of the book of Revelation, but there's one place in chapter 11 where the unified humanity in rebellion against God is in chapter 11 verse 8 called the great city which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt where the Lord was crucified. So this is if you were wondering like are these guys playing fast and loose Making Babylon into Egypt and Israel becomes Babylon. Well here you go. Yes, the smoking gun Right is it is a new testament author just to sit all together. Yeah He's talking about Babylon as the larger character in the book of Revelation But he also calls the great city Sodom and Egypt and Jerusalem

The crucify Jesus. He sees them all as manifestations of the same a city a whole people group that have given into the promise of evil. I love that phrase the promise of evil So Babylon so at the end of the book, before Jesus comes riding on the white horse to bring his kingdom, if God's kingdom is going to come through Jesus, Babylon must fall. And so in the Revelation chapter 17 through 19, is a long set of visions and poems about the fall of Babylon. And it's amazing, every single testament passage from the prophets

about the fall of Babylon gets quoted in the revelation. In those chapters of Revelation about the fall of Babylon. He just all get thrown in. He's literally quoted from the ground and everything. Yeah, there's a bunch in Isaiah, a bunch in Jeremiah, a bunch of Zikil, and then in the handful of minor prophets. And he's systematically pulled quotes from all of them. It's really remarkable.

There's a Vietnam in there. And so, and other from the fall of Tyre to Israel's North, from the Edom to the South East. So, and it saw them in Egypt and Jerusalem. So it's just the mega. I think we've talked about this. And in the revelation, the great city, Babylon, is like a mega transformer. That's right. You've talked about that. Have we used this before? I don't remember. Yeah, I remember you talking about this before. Yeah. Yeah. So, I have, there's one version from my childhood that I think you don't remember called Volt Yeah. Yeah. So, I have, there's one version from my childhood

that I think you don't remember called Voltron. Yeah. It was like five lions, robotic lions that would join into one. Defender of the universe. Yes, Voltron. Yeah. And then in Transformers, there were both.

That wasn't a Transformer. No, no, that was just a different thing. That was just Voltron. Yeah. But then in Transformers, there was a Autobot version and a Decepticon version of a team of they can all combine into one. Robots, the combined into the big massive robot.

And so I remember I had the constructikons, the Decepticon one. There were all these neon green construction vehicles that formed into this massive destructive bot. And that's exactly the way Babylon is all of these ancient cities or current cities. All thrown together as this one massive

empire. And so in these chapters is basically just the kingdom collapses and Babylon collapses in the nations of the earth, lament and mourn, and a long list of all the economic goods that Babylon made its wealth off of, and the last one in the list is human lives in chapter 18. And then after that is the coming of the writer on the white horse. Yeah. It's Jesus.

And there's some debate about this because he comes with a sword, but then... But the sword's coming out of his mouth. Yes, the sword's a metaphor because it's coming out of his mouth. He's quoting from two passages in Isaiah, he puts his proclaiming justice coming out of his mouth. He's quoting from two passages in Isaiah, which is proclaiming justice.

It's his verdict. The sword is his words. His words that hold Babylon and those who participate in accountable. And this fits into the whole depiction of Jesus as the victor in the book of Revelation. He's a slain lamb. So he's a most helpless creature. And it's not only that. And his neck is slit and he's all bloody.

That's the victor in the Revelation. So he's taking the image of the cross and made it a theme to describe the essence of Jesus' identity. Sling Victor. I was actually really thinking about this over the weekend. We watched a movie with Jessica's sister and daughter has been called the Magnificent Seven. It's kind of like a... I saw half of it when I fell asleep. It was because it was boring because I was really tired. It's kind of like a I saw half of it. Yeah, I fell asleep. Yeah, because it was boring because I was really tired Dense out Washington, Chris Pratt. Yeah And just a classic Western tale totally

You know I every and you just want to see him beat up the back Yeah, it's just a classic, but what was interesting was the innocent town that gets hijacked by the Evil, you know gold mining baron, the innocent people are super religious. And the first scene of the pastor, he used this wimp of a man, of course, of course he's portrayed as a total coward. And so he's first, you know, uses prophetic critique of the bad guy. Who do you think you are? Who don't come into the Lord's house, you know? Right? And then he's just like slapped down and then he's one of the characters in the story who has this conversion. And what is conversion to is the only way to beat this guy is to kill him, and to kill all of his henchmen. And so by the end he ends up praying for and giving his blessing.

On the heroes, is there about to go annihilate the bad guys and kill them all. And then the preachers there at the end thanking God for this victory. And it's exactly what we're talking about. That's the day of the Lord. And so, as you would imagine it, that is the day of the Lord from the Old Testament prophets' point of view. The day that the Holy Rodin and they took down that villain in his crew and rescued the oppressed. But according to Jesus, that's not the day of the Lord.

If Jesus had been Denzel Washington, he would have failed, that would be a failure, because he would have given in to the devil. And so, in a way, if there was a scene where Denzel Washington is confronted by the spiritual force who says, hey, I'm gonna give you success. If you give me allegiance. And I'm gonna give you a chance to blow the bad guys head off. And if you just take it.

And then he goes and they take care of business. That seemed obviously. Yeah, totally. But, yeah. But it's, yeah, but it's Yeah, the preacher in the Magnificent Seven Accord I think according to honest reading of the gospel narratives would actually put the preacher in the place of Judas Hmm Like he said he's on the side of Jesus, but actually in the end

He knows the only real way to defeat evil. It's to be like Babylon. It's to be like Babylon And so it becomes a betrayal of Jesus. Anyway, and I walked away from the movie really disturbed because Everything in me I grew up watching you want to celebrate everything in me Wants to celebrate I grew up watching Westerns with my dad. It's really nostalgic for me to watch Westerns. But I was really conflicted by the end of the film because I was like, that's not the way of Jesus. But I love that the bad guy died the way that he did. It's the scandal of the cross, I think. It is uncomfortable. It is uncomfortable. So he comes riding on a white horse. So he takes

very traditional image, right, of Denzel Washington. Yeah, coming in. But then his guns aren't material. Yeah. There is words. Right. And then we're told that he's covered in blood. Yeah. But the battle hasn't even happened yet. He's already covered in blood before the battle happens. And he's using, here's the thing, this is a good example, in that phrase, he's using an image drawn from Isaiah 63 that's really actually a divine warrior image, that's kind of disturbing. But this is a good example of how the New Testament authors work. So it's a depiction of the day of the Lord in Isaiah 63, and the prophet asks, it's like he's on a mountain or a hill,

and he sees a savior figure coming up over the hills. Who is this coming up from the south, from Adam, the land of one of Israel's great enemies, from Boatsrath, it's another land, and his garments are all stained red. Who is this coming robed and splendor striding in the greatness of his strength? And then the Victor speaks, it's me proclaiming victory mighty to save. Then the prophet asked, well, why are your clothes all red? Like you've been treading in a wine press. And then the victor responds, I've

trodden the wine press alone from the nations. No one was with me. I trampled the nations of my anger, trodden them in my wrath. Their blood were using treading a wine press, the blood of grapes. Spatters my garment, stained my clothing. For me, it was the day of vengeance, the day of the Lord. Yeah, and there, the blood was the nations. Yeah, it's a metaphor. He's stomping the wicked of the nations like grapes.

The poem isn't saying, oh, he's squashing tiny humans. He's squashing grapes. And it's a metaphor of divine justice. He's in a wine press by himself. Squishing down the grapes. And he's saying that's him bringing vengeance on... A vinging all the innocent blood. So the wine on his garments is really the blood?

Yeah, it becomes this metaphor of the blood of the wicked that he's... I mean, it's a very violent image. Yeah. It's super violent image. Yeah. So here's how John picks this image up in the revelation in Revelation 19 verse 11. He says, I saw heaven standing open. There before me was a white horse. His rider is called faithful and true with

justice. He brings judgment and he wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire. It's from Daniel. Describing the ancient days from Daniel. On his head are many crowns. We already remember that from Revelation chapter 5. He has a name written on him that nobody knows, but himself. The name representing your truth identity. He's dressed in a robe dipped in blood and his name is the word of God. The armies of heaven following him riding on a white horse. So here he is, he's bloody. That battle hasn't even started. How do you know the battle hasn't started?

Oh, because it's going to start down below. Holy did is arrive on over the hilltop with the sunrise. You know, that's the idea. He's waging war. He arrives with his clothes covered with blood. Yeah. Coming out of his mouth is the sword that is a metaphor of his verdict with which he strikes the nation. This is a quotation from Isaiah 11.

He strikes the wicked with the breath of his mouth. Who he rules with the iron scepter, that's a quote from Psalm 2, he treads the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God on my team. You're like, wait, I thought, wait, so he treads the wine press. But wasn't that, so the wine press can't be him at battle because he hasn't gone to battle yet. Right, or he's come, he treads the wine press of the theory of the wrath. So in Isaiah 63, that's how he got blood. That's how he gets bloody.

It's by treading the wine press. Here, he shows up bloody. He's already bloody. And this is how he's waging war. Yeah. So John's showing he's colliding images here. He's showing that Jesus's way of waging war. Yeah. So John's showing he's colliding images here. He's showing that Jesus' way of waging war is the fulfillment of all of these Old Testament images.

But he's turning also at the same time, turning it upside down in light of the scandal of the cross. And so it's the same thing that happened earlier in Revelation where he says, I saw the one who could guide history and open the scroll. It's the lion of Judah, right? The aggressive lion. Yeah. And then he says, that's what he heard, announced. And then what he sees is a lamb with a slip throat. So he's constantly taking aggressive, violent, old testament day of the Lord imagery and saying, the cross was the day of the Lord. It was the fulfillment of those images and it did not involve God killing his enemies.

It actually involved the Son of God, allowing himself to be killed by them. I think it's inescapable. This is why readings of the book of Revelation that I don't know, help people look forward to some future cataclysm of violence where Jesus comes with a sword cutting people apart. To me, it's just, it's not just a misreading of revelation. To me, it's a betrayal of Jesus. Because what you're saying is, oh, Jesus used the means of the cross, but that was just like his way of being nice for a little bit. But really, he's... Ultimately, he will use the threat of death and as a true power to bring justice. And I'm not saying that there isn't a reality to final justice where people suffer the

consequences of their decisions if they don't yield to Jesus. Not saying that. But what I'm saying is the new testament is transforming these violent images of the day of the Lord in a really important way that has gone largely unnoticed by the modern Western Church. Because we love Denzel Washington, strangling the bad guy to death, and empty. It feels good. It does. It's satisfying. Anyhow, that's how the day of the Lord comes with its completion in the last book of the Bible is this paradox. And so what does the, here he defeats the armies of evil and then in chapter 20, Babylon, death, the beast, the dragon,

they're all cast into the lake of fire. They are assigned, they're quarantined to a place of eternal self-destruction and that's the defeat of evil. And you can say that's a violent image, but it's interesting, it's people being consigned or handed over to what they've chosen.

Yeah. Something that they've chosen, which is the destruction. Yeah. Well, how did Butler talk about it? He talked about it as creating a place for that to exist, but not inside of creation. Yeah.

If somebody refuses, like Pharaoh, to acknowledge Jesus as their Lord, using Pharaoh as an icon or Babylon, then God will honor the dignity of that decision and allow people to exist in that. It will confine me, I think, was the term. Confine me, yes. But what God won't allow is for that evil to pollute or vandalize his creation anymore. And so the end of Revelation is the New Jerusalem and then outside the city are. So wait, I thought they were in a lake of fire. But then in chapter 20, but then in chapter 22, the wicked are just outside the city. So these images of that God will contain those who

choose evil and the point is that he won't allow them to ruin his world anymore. And of course, we wonder, what is, how does that all actually refer to? The final day of the Lord, what does it actually mean? And I don't think- And we don't know what's going to happen. When, and we just, the biblical authors are not interested in giving us that information. But like Paul says, concerning times and dates,

I'm not gonna write to you about that. What you need to know is what this means for history and for your own setting right now so that you can follow the Messiah. What are the telltale signs that you have become part of Babylon? Well, think through the portraits. We have three steps so far. We add Genesis 3 to 11, then we add Egypt, the description of Egypt, and book of Exodus, and then we add Solomon's reign and the description of Israel in those books. And each one kind of progressed the portrait.

of Israel in those books. And each one kind of progressed the portrait. So Genesis 3-11 was about autonomy, human autonomy from God wanting to redefine good and evil. And every political structure does that? Yeah. Every political structure has to define what is good and not good in its regime. There's no political structure that says, you know, we're going to do this under the guidance of Yahweh. Well, I don't know. I think different in the ancient world, every political, oh, right now. Well, sure, I mean, this again gets into whole debate about American history. Sure. But God language has been used in America's entire political history. And for most of your opinion, political history. God-language meaning.

Appealing to some kind of divine standard as giving moral legitimacy to policies and decisions. So one nation under God, the liberty, and all of that. Yeah, that's all. That's all God-dlinged. That's the day of the Christian. Correct. We'll be. Yep.

But no one's constitution written in is saying. No, not right now. Yeah, it's like the laws of the Torah. Well, not the laws of the Torah necessarily, but even just you know as a as a nation we will always fear God and we will not try to define good and evil on our own terms, but always do it You know, yes, yes, underguides. Yeah, well it depends like which God you know, I mean that's the whole debate even about America one nation under God Well, what God is that? Like the kind of neutered Christian God, you know, of American civil religion or the actual like the God revealed in Jesus of Nazareth, you know, which is.

I think that's what I'm trying to say is there isn't any nation state that says, There isn't any nation state that says Yahweh is our God. We will written into our Constitution. Sure. Yeah. That we will maybe be Israel. That nation does not exist. Yeah, modern Israel is not that nation state. It's an extremely secular nation state. So it's an extremely secular nation state. Right. Like America, it uses its religious heritage as a framework for its language,

but the actual people in the value systems that work are modern. And I think what's interesting is there's this fear because when you see that happen in like radical Islam and you yeah sure sure really can get ugly Yes, and so you wonder will that be the same thing if a nation state said hey, we follow Yahweh and And and believe in Jesus and the resurrection and the king of God and we we wanna build around that, is it gonna get ugly? Yeah. And I guess if you truly are following Jesus, then you would be this weird nation state

that constantly is forgiving and surrendering at weird moments and creating peace and injustice in radical ways. Yes. Like Like maybe it's not even possible. He probably just can beat up. No, it exists right now. How does it exist? It's called the church. But that's not a nation's date. No, but it's a institution. It's an institution. That's what the church is supposed to be. The Jesus Institute, a multi-ethnic, covenant people bound by their allegiance to Jesus and his love for them, that lives by a radically different value system

as a counter bet to Babylon. We're describing what the church is and the New Testament is. You're right, You were describing churches. At least the vision of what the movement of Jesus is. But I never thought of churches on the same kind of platform as a political structure. Oh, I see. Well, what is a political structure? It's just a group of people who share resources and agree to a set of policies and values

that govern their common life together. That's what the word politics means. The word polis refers to a bound city surrounded by a wall, and politicos is... It's not polis. Yeah, and politicos is the terms to which we all commit to live together. the terms to which we all commit to live together. And so the movement that Jesus started is a political movement. Is a movement of people in the classic sense of that word. In the classic sense. Yeah.

Not in the sense of where you start. Any group of people that commits to a commitment to living together by a certain set of values is a political body. In the classic sense of that word. Yeah. Yeah, Stanley Hower was in some circles, controversial Christian theologian, but he's probably one of the most important voices But he's probably one of the most important voices, arguing for a complete separation between the movement of Jesus and the power structures of the world. And he talks about that the church doesn't have

a political influence. He just says the church is a politics. So it's a great way of putting it. Yeah, that makes sense the way we're talking about it. political influence, he just says, the church is a politics. So it's a great way of putting it. Yeah, that makes sense the way we're talking about it. That seems like, so that seems like the strategy that you should have as the church is, is don't intertwine yourself with politics,

be your own politics. But the problem is that's not actually what the apostles advocated. Right, okay. So what they advocated was was they adopted Jeremiah's philosophy, which was live in the midst of Babylon and fully immersed yourself, but out of allegiance to a different ruler and with a completely different value system, which most of the time is going to create overlap in pursuit of the common good.

But sometimes we'll create a conflict of allegiance. And then God's people are to obey God rather than man as Peter puts it in the book of Acts and happily suffer whatever consequences come, even if it means death. And here we're into the book of Daniel or Esther. Yeah, because depending on that moment in history and what you're doing as the church, you're either being celebrated or you're a threat to national security. That's right. Which is exactly how the early Christians were perceived in the first two centuries. Yeah. As a political threat.

A group of people organizing out of allegiance to a different king. Yeah, and that's true persecution, like when you're a political threat. Correct. Like, if all of a sudden, and sorry, to our international listeners again, but I've all said in America,

it was Christianity's a political threat. Like then you could say, okay, persecution. Until then, you just get made fun of in cities on each of the western east coast. Yeah, he's the best. That's the worst again. But of jokes. Yeah, but yeah, our brothers and sisters in many, many countries in the world are Actually persecuted because they're the Christian movement is viewed as a threat to the social order Yeah, and there's some Americans who feel that way about

Christianity that it's just actually a danger to America's social order sure and of course Yeah, it's many American Christians view see it exactly the opposite right so The day of the Lord in the prophets Absolutely raises the questions of what you call political theology the way you think as a Christian About my relationship to the power institutions of the world so when people ask you about your Politics you know into detail, you don't know into detail, but if someone asks you, do you have an answer? Do you have like a wrote kind of like, here's my stance on things politically? Well, I mean, you can

just do in a shorthand way that just invites a conversation, which is to say Jesus is Lord. What's your yeah. And so when Caesar or a Deppicanessor or the president is on board with the common good as defined by Jesus, then we are happy neighbors speaking each other. So when someone says one political part of your head, you say, Jesus is Lord. Oh, I think that's what a Christian should say. Okay. And then out of moral conscience, you get informed about the issues, the policies, the leaders, and have to, if you're in a democratic republic, like we have the privilege of being, use your voting influence, decide

according to your conscience, and that clearly differs even within the body of Christ. Sure, clearly. Yeah. Because different values are at different senses of what is right. Yeah. Or different core values of what is right. And here we go. Man, there's a book. I just listen to a podcast on Johnus and Hate, the righteous mind, why good people are divided by politics and religion. I don't think he's a Christian, but the podcast I was listening to, it's fourth theologians who talk about theology and what's that one called? It's called Mirfidelity. Yeah, Mirfidelity. And so it is a great review and discussion of this book,

but Jonathan Hate has identified why it is that people in American culture just talk past each other. And his argument is just simply that they have different core values of defining what is the right and the good. So some people define evil as harm. Some people define evil as disorder or violating natural boundary lines. Some people define evil as inequality, lack of equality. And those base definitions will then create whole narratives of what is good. And then you get people in the same room who are just

talking past each other. They inhabit different worlds. His point in writing the book is to just help people see the true dialogue means learning what's underneath other people's core values. And that diversity is within the body of Christ itself, which is by definition a multi-ethnic international movement. And so we should expect that there'll be different ways, that different Christians in different countries, the different times relate to the power structures around them. I think one thing that leads to a lot of political divides is fear.

And that is, you know, your nation state protects you in your way of life. And one of the biggest fears as a human is to lose security, to lose your freedoms. I think that how you think that might come to happen is the thing you're going to fight against. And the things that you think are going to protect those freedoms is what you're going to fight for. But the base of it is because we're really afraid. I get afraid of thinking, what if the economy collapses? What if all these different scenarios, I get afraid. I get afraid of thinking like, what if the economy collapses? You know, what if all these different scenarios, I was just listening to this podcast last night

and they're talking about how antibiotics are like, we're running out of antibiotic strains that are actually effective. And it's only gonna take like, it'll take a couple billion dollars, probably to develop a new one. And corporations don't want to do it because there's not really any money in it because people only use it once.

And the nation states are not organized enough to do it, isn't a priority. So we're just kind of sitting around waiting for the next black plague. Yeah, right. And so there's all this fear that's just normal. But I think what I'm realizing is if you, if you're politics is Jesus's Lord, no matter what happens, you know that phrase, like whatever happens, God's in control. Like the prophets as they're seeing all this chaos and they're seeing these wars. Imagine the world they end happened. Oh my goodness. Yeah. And they seeing all this chaos, and they're seeing these wars. Matt and the world, they end happened.

Oh my goodness. And they go, this is the day of the Lord. This is the Lord at work, even though it's ugly, and even though it's scary. And so I'm kind of imagining, what's the worst case scenario for me and my part of the world? And if that happens, I'm am not the one to say this, but God must have a plan. And like the church will stand. The kingdom of God will prevail. Yeah. Yeah. This is why the story of this is hard to be afraid. Yes, that's right. This is why

the Old Testament story doesn't end with exile. It goes on to continue the story of what it means to be the covenant people of God, even when all the structures that we thought are what to find us as the people of God are obliterated. And so you have Daniel. What does he do wrong? You know? What did Daniel do wrong? Yeah, what did Daniel do wrong? He's a Torah abiding worshiper of Yahweh and his life gets ruined because of

the rise and fall of kingdoms and Babylon. And so he's forced to walk this line of allegiance to the God of Israel, even though against his will it seems he's constrafted into the Babylonian government. And he takes the Babylonian name, he wears Babylonian clothes, and he serves in the Babylonian government. But then there are these moments of conflict, of values. And he, you know, publicly pledges allegiance

to the God of Israel and says, I'll happily suffer the consequences, but I won't acknowledge that Babylon is God. He does it with a good attitude. And he says, you can kill me. And so that becomes the paradigm of God's people among the nation, among Babylon and among the nation. He wasn't driven by fear.

He wasn't driven by fear. Yeah, totally, it's right. And so this is why the Jesus story is such a scandal, such a scandal. And it doesn't mean rejecting, taking, being proud of what national identity you have. I don't think it means that. But it does mean my national identity is relativized. It's transcended by my allegiance to the King of the nations. And my allegiance to the body, that political body, which is the body of Jesus. I mean, this is so scandalous to say, but what it

means is I create this healthy ambiguity in my allegiance to whatever nation I happen to live in. I'll seek its best. But if the things comes crashing down because it's become Babylon, well, it's the way the day of the Lord works. And my kingdom became Babylon. I sure hope I wasn't participating in it. And that puts you in a very interesting position because let's say you Tim had the ear of the president, right? And but the president knows you are sitting in this ambiguous position

where you will seek the best of the country. Yep, but you will not if it is in antithesis to the king of God. Yep. So at one moment, you could be in great favor with the president because there's all this alignment. And then the next moment, you could be thrown into a line state. Yeah, because you're not fully on the team. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

That's, you think Christians need to embrace that ambiguity of that reality? I think many or most do. Yeah. And then there are the extremes that just say, withdraw and go farm in the countryside. You know, and just in let Babylon go to hell and ham basket.

And then there are those who say, no, this is the best thing, God's. This is God is at work. God is at work and this is the best expression of God's will in the world. Is this form of government and so I'm going to. There is perfect alignment. Perfect alignment.

Yeah. So that's one extreme. Yep, those are the streams. Yeah, full separatism. And then everything in between. And then the messy middle is where almost all the stories in the Bible tend to land, which is Daniel, Joseph, Esther, the Apostles' relationship to the temple and Jerusalem and the early chapters of Acts.

And Paul, in Rome, at the end of the Book of Acts, he's under house arrest, he doesn't try and escape, he fully submits to the political machinery of the Roman system, even though he knows that he's there unjustly. And then he leverages his prison time to talk strategic influencers about Jesus. There you go. Political theology is anything but simple. Never simple. Anything that's, but he that simplifies it's trying to sell you something. Yeah. It seems to be what further complicates it is that then your definition of what is the kingdom supposed to look like. You know, what are, how do you define evil? Like what you were saying. Like, now you have to, as the church come to agreement on how we're defining evil. Correct.

Yeah. And that influences then what you think the kingdom of God is as it is. Yeah, how it ought to take expression through a specific local church. And it seems like even within Christian communities there is a disagreement. Yep. That's right. Yeah. Which makes it even messier. Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, is the greatest threat, the dissolution of the family, and of sexual immorality, or is the greatest threat vast racial and economic inequalities? You know, you just have to go back to the teachings of the apostles and the prophets and discern in the guidance of the Spirit what expression a particular church is supposed to make in its context.

Wow. So the day of the Lord. That's a lot. The day of the Lord is solving a problem so that something better can happen afterwards. It's not an end. It's self. end in itself. Okay, we did it. The day of the Lord. This was by far the longest and most in-depth series we've done, but we've gotten a lot of good feedback about it,

and I hope you enjoyed it. I'm sure you've got some lingering questions. So in an upcoming episode, we're gonna do our best to respond to many of those questions. If you want your question responded to, send it to us in audio form. Try to keep it around 15 seconds and make sure to use your name and where you're from as well. Then send your question to support at jointhebibleproject.com. We need your questions by 9 a.m. on Tuesday morning. That's May 23rd. So I know a lot of people listen to this on Monday morning,

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