BibleProject - Design Patterns in the Bible Part 4: Chaotic Waters & Baptism

Episode Date: April 23, 2018

In part 1 (0- 18:10), Tim and Jon continue to recap key stories in Genesis and the Old Testament. The key themes in these stories are chaotic waters and salvation through them. In Joshua 3, Joshua is getting ready to lead Israel across the Jordan river into the promised land. This story maps onto the story of Israel getting ready to cross the Reed/Red Sea in Exodus as they are fleeing Pharoah. Tim says this story is an example of the “salvation template” being used in Biblical stories. Tim gives another example of Mary’s song that she sings at the birth of Jesus in Luke 1. Tim says this song is a remix of older songs in the Hebrew scriptures. Mary uses the same words, images and phrases used in other parts of the Bible to express her feelings. The guys discuss how these stories allow people to create metaphors and analogies and help people construct a worldview. In part 2 (18:10-25:21) Tim describes the famous passage in Isaiah 11 describing the stump, root, and shoot of Jesse’s descendants. In this part of Isaiah, a “remnant” is being redeemed. Where else in the Bible does a “remnant being redeemed” occur? In the story of Noah and the flood. Noah and his family were the remnant. Tim says Isaiah is using this story in an analogous way to say that God will rescue his scattered nation of Israel from the “chaotic waters” of exile among the nations. In part 3, (25:21-32:34) the guys move to a New Testament story, The Baptism of Jesus in Mark 1. Tim and Jon uncover the similarities in this story and the foundational stories of the Old Testament. Tim asks, "when looking for similarities in biblical stories, what are the controls? What should a person be looking for or be guarded against?" In part 4, (32:34-50:10) the guys move further into the New Testament and discuss Pauline passages in 1 Corinthians 10. Paul describes “our fathers were under the cloud and passed through the sea, and all were baptized into moses in the cloud and in the sea.” What does this mean and why would Paul include it? Tim says Paul is writing to a Gentile audience but views them as being directly related to ancient Jewish fathers. The Corinthians fathers are the fathers of Israel. Therefore the Jewish story of salvation is the Corinthians story as well. Tim shares another example in Romans 6. Here, Paul compares people being “slaves to sin.” Paul borrows language and imagery from the Exodus. Slavery of Israel, Pharoah, death, chaos, and liberation/salvation. Paul also outlines the purpose of Christian Baptism. When a Christian gets baptized, they are reenacting the salvation story, being saved “through the waters” and brought to new life on the other side. Jon ponders why all of this seems so complicated, when he thought salvation should be simple. What does it mean to be “saved from chaos” today? Tim offers that this perhaps means people should be willing to wrestle with the ambiguities and mysteries that these stories present. Everyone has their own slavery, their own salvation story, but the biblical stories provide templates. God conquers chaos and brings order. He sets people up in his image to do the same. In the final part (50:10 -end), Jon asks a question related to the rainbow in the flood story and the future of the world. “Is God going to totally destroy the earth and start fresh? Or will God fundamentally restructure and reorder the earth? In other words, is God not going to flood the earth, or is he not going to let creation collapse back in on itself again?” Tim points Jon to 2 Peter ch. 3 which is the biblical text Jon is thinking of. There are challenges of translation, interpretation, and also a textual variant in the ancient manuscripts of 2 Peter 3. When read closely, the text is clear that God's "fire" is a moral purification that will remove evil from his creation rather than completely destroy the earth itself. 2 Peter is adapting imagery from Zephaniah 3 saying that the evil will not be allowed to pass through the Day of the Lord. In the Old Testament prophets intense, fiery imagery, was not trying to predict future events by giving us “video camera footage”, but instead using provocative imagery to encourage the reader to imagine a purified creation. Thank you to all our supporters! You can learn more about what we’re up to at www.thebibleproject.com Resources: George Lakoff: : Metaphors we Live by George Lakoff: More Than Cool Reason The Bible Project Video on Design Patterns in the Bible : https://thebibleproject.com/videos/design-patterns-biblical-narrative/ Show Music: Rosasharn: Defender Instrumental Dan Koch: Blooms Dan Koch: Caramel Dan Koch: Chop Shop Dan Koch: El Capitan Show Produced By: Dan Gummel. Jon Collins. Tim Mackie. Matthew Halbert-Howen.

Hey, this is Cooper at Bible Project. I produce the podcast in Classroom. We've been exploring a theme called the City, and it's a pretty big theme. So we decided to do two separate Q and R episodes about it. We're currently taking questions for the second Q and R and we'd love to hear from you. Just record your question by July 21st

and send it to us at infoatbiboproject.com. Let us know your name and where you're from, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds and please transcribe your question when you email it in, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds, and please transcribe your question when you email it. That's a huge help to our team. We're excited to hear from you. Here's the episode.

Hey there, welcome to the Bible Project Podcast. I'm Tim, and you are the wonderful person that you are. Welcome to the podcast. Usually the person who does these introductions to our podcast is John. He's my co-founder in the Bible Project, but he's at a town this week and so you get me instead. This episode is actually part four of a four-part conversation that John and I had in our How to Read the Bible series, and specifically we're focusing on design patterns in biblical

narrative. So if you haven't listened to the first three episodes, I really recommend you do so. Most of this conversation won't make a lot of sense without listening to those previous three. If you've been listening, you've gotten the basic concept that biblical authors have designed stories across the whole Bible in a coordinated way so that they share key vocabulary and themes. And this is the part of how the Bible was written as a unified whole to follow the thread of key arguments and theological themes that are developing from from beginning to end.

And so for me personally this has been a revolutionary set of skills that I have just really been honing and learning more about from a community of scholars and friends that I'm a part of just in the last couple years. It's really turned the way I every the Bible into surprising new territory that I just never saw coming. The result is that the Bible has become so much more coherent and cohesive and unified from cover to cover. So what we're going to talk about in this episode

is continue our discussion on the design pattern of God, providing salvation for his people at sunrise through the waters. We're going to delve into more Old Testament examples, Joshua going to be with Jordan, Isaiah's hope and coming up in Messiah. We're going to talk about how this whole theme of salvation through the waters leads up to the stories of Jesus' baptism and the development of baptism in early Christianity. We're going to talk about some other things, like neuroscience and how reading, according to design patterns, is actually a really natural way. To read texts, it's what our brains are doing most of the time anyway.

I love these conversations. With John, they're like one of the highlights of my week when we get to do this. So there you go. I hope this conversation's helpful for you. Let's just dive in and we'll learn together. Okay, so we're looking at narrative patterning and we are looking at specific pattern of creation and separating chaos and salvation or at least the ability to live, be alive. Is that what salvation means? Well, Genesis 1 gives us this fundamental portrait of God's purposes for the world.

It's to overcome chaos by creating order through acts of separating, so that space can emerge dry land for humans to flourish and be awesome. But then once humans unleash chaos back into the world, what we see now is this replaying of this pattern of separating the waters, but now it's to rescue or let the remnant pass through that will emerge out the other side of the waters to inhabit the new creation that God has to remake with them. Because they ruin the first one. Yeah, so it's big. Okay.

So it's more of that pattern. It begins with just God's purpose and then once humans ruin it, then God repeating it becomes an act of rescue. Okay, cool. And so we looked at Genesis 1, Genesis 7 with a flood story, and we looked at Exodus, story now we'll look at a couple more. Yeah, a couple more. So these would be examples later on in the Old Testament story, where they just for a chapter or a scene just pick up this whole thing. Creation, flood, Exodus, and they just will draw from all those stories as if they're one thing.

Yeah. Because they are one idea. Yeah, that's right. So, and there are usually at fundamental transition moments in the story line. So after Moses dies, and Israel is going to enter into the promised land, that constitutes a pretty significant transition moment in the story.

So after they send spies into the land, that whole thing. Actually, Joshua sends two spies into the land. Oh, this is too good. So remember when Moses sent the spies into the land? Yeah. He sent 12. Yeah.

And only two. Yeah, we're faithful. So this time, Josh was sent to only two spies. Let's just send the right two. Exactly. Yeah. And then, the first thing they do is go into Jericho and go into the house of a prostitute. And you're like, oh no.

But then the prostitute turns out to be this righteous canonite woman named Rahab who confesses that the God of Israel is true God. So she and her family are rescued. Anyway, this is really cool. That itself is a design pattern of mapping of the spires. Of the spires. Of the spires. Of the first spires. On to the success of the second set of spies, but at first you think they're gonna fail

Yeah, but then they don't right that's the exactly it's the bread and butter. Yeah, it's like totally they're always thinking about it They're always thinking about how to pair and compare later characters with their doing okay, so then We get ready to bring the nation into the promised Land. So chapter three, this is Joshua chapter three. So Joshua woke up in the morning and set out from Shiteim and they Israel and Joshua came to the Jordan River. And they stayed the night there before they crossed over. So here's Israel.

Yes, spend the night on one side of the river. At night before a body of water that represents a barrier between them and to promised land. The people are instructed. The Yabusha. The promised land. Well, it is dry land, but the dry land features a little different. You'll see. So then Joshua gives them all these instructions. The people are to wait right there while the priests are going to go first. And the priests will carry the ark. Yeah.

And that will tell them the way that they cross the river. It's a cross through the river. Mm-hmm. So in the morning, Joshua says to the people, everybody, make yourselves holy. Oh, excuse me, this is not in the morning. This is still the day before. Okay.

Make yourselves holy for tomorrow. Yahweh will work wonders in your midst. So remember that moment where Moses, the people are freaking out right at the foot of the waters and Moses says, Yeah, don't do anything. Don't do anything. Get ready. Yahweh is about to do something.

Here it's work wonders. And it's do something. It's make yourself holy. And you, yeah, make yourselves holy. Which, what, like, literally pure, pure like what what did you talk about yeah? This is the sacred moment something unique and holy is about to happen So you need to make yourselves what would be the things people would be doing then at this point? Oh, you know actually what this is riffing off of is this itself make yourselves holy is

Ripping off of what the Israelites were to do. What Moses said to Israel the day before Yahweh showed up on Mount Sinai. They were to make yourselves holy. Which is remaining. So it's connecting to that story. Yeah, ritual purity. Yeah. Then Yahweh said to Joshua,

Today, I will begin to make you great in the eyes of all Israel so that they will know just as I was with Moses, so I will be with you. So we have parallel scene settings. Actually, it thinks we are a plot character setting. Parallel settings, Israel at the foot of the waters. What needing to cross? Needing to cross.

Parallel characters, Joshua, is explicitly said said painted as a new love and Parallel plot conflicts the people need to cross through the waters to get to the place that God has promised Yeah, the priests walked towards the water for 16 and the waters of the Jordan were cut off Where they flowed up above and they stood in a single heap pile. So it's not through a sea because there you would need to spread the waters where you have two walls. But now it's a river. Yeah. But it's the same thing happening.

It's just the wall is happening upstream. Yeah. So it stands in not two walls, but a single single heap. And the people crossed across from Jericho, the priest stood carrying the ark of the covenant of Yahweh on dry ground. So they're standing there in the midst of the Jordan, while all Israel was crossing on dry ground until the nation finished, then the priests followed them through. and then the story moves on. Yeah.

So, is this a salvation moment? Well, they're not in danger, but it is about, it's the salvation template playing itself out. God bringing the people finally out of the wilderness into the land that He's promised. They're crossing through the waters to the place that God's prepared for them. Genesis 1. So there's all the different element here is the priests as an agent. Yeah, the priests go before them. Yes, that's right. Totally. You have priestly representatives go in first, and then what is true of them,

right, the remnant passing through the waters becomes true of the rest who follow. Right. I've never quite put it that way, but that's exactly what's happening. The priestly representatives go in first. Yeah, and there's no rock in this story. Yeah, it's interesting.

Yeah, the waters are cut off upstream. Mm-hmm. Cool. So that's a good example of, it's just brief. The other ones were big and elaborate. This one's just a little flash. Yeah, and it's easy to like get to this and be like, huh, it just sounds like, sounds like they're just

not being creative and they're doing another red. Does it feel like the Star Wars example to you. Remember when we looked at the Force Awakens? How it's replaying? Yeah, all the scenes. Yeah, yeah, totally. This would be a lot easier to visualize Like in a video than the taking and seizing, but yeah Actually, that's interesting here. Let me show you something in my profits and gospels class Actually, that's interesting here. Let me show you something. In my prophets and gospels class, we were talking about all this stuff as we were walking through the births and narratives of Jesus and Matthew, because that's all the births and narratives we're doing is doing this. It's rehashing all these things. Yeah, all these little moments in the story of Jesus become

replays of earlier stories. Yeah. Yeah, so this is from a study done. This was looking at a different example in the gospel of Luke where the song that Mary sings is itself just massively sophisticated, copy and paste. Yeah. The poems mash up. From earlier Biddle. It's a remix. It's a remix, totally.

Yeah. So there was this study done on the poetry the poems composed by the cumron crew composed the Dead Sea Scrolls because they have a lot of their own poetry and it's just like that okay it's just more that stuff more that stuff and so they did a comparative reading of the poetry of the cumron community with the poetry of the gospels. In the gospels. Yeah, it's really interesting.

And so they were commenting on this usage of traditional scriptural language in a new context is not a sign of a lack of originality. Right. Rather, it's the testimony to the art of a poet who can take language already laden with meaning for people familiar with the heritage of their scriptures and use it to describe new situations. I thought that was a on point way of describing what's going on here. In a way, it's becoming a new type of language.

Yes, yeah, that's right. Yes, because... The's right. Yes. Because the earlier narratives give you the vocabulary to talk about salvation. Yeah. This is how we talk about salvation. Right, it's so interesting to think about just language in general, like we take an idea,

an abstraction, put a word on it, and then now instead of having to discuss this abstraction at length, we just use the code word. So whatever it is, God, I guess, I'm going to say. Although it got some more than an abstraction. But then if you're trying to create new paradigms, typically you create new vocabulary. Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah, this is what philosophers do. Yeah, all the time.

It's creative new words. It's the coin new words to try and create new paradigms and structures of thought that they hope will get picked up by people after them. But it seems like what's happening here isn't coin new words. It's coining narrative. Yes, yes.

Types, you know, like if you want to understand what it means that humans bring chaos to creation or the temptation of humans to bring chaos or whatever these things are, I'm not gonna give you a word for it but I'm gonna give you a story for it and all the story becomes the shorthand. But then what's beautiful about that is then the story can get reused and reshaped over and over and over in a way that a vocab word can't, you know?

Yeah, that's right. And it can become, it's very, it's very inhabitable. You know, it's very much like. And you can apply it in just lots of new in different settings. Yeah. Yeah Man, yeah, I just read this really interesting article about the way the different presidents Sense Martin Luther King Jr. or each president's speech writers. Right have used and employed

Key themes from Martin Luther King Jr. speeches. Oh Hmm, the key themes from Martin Luther King, Jr. speeches. Oh, the remixing of speech. The remixing. And what they're often usually remixing is Dr. King's remixing of biblical imagery. So you have images about the Exodus or passages from the prophets that Dr. King was adapting. And then he'll go through and whatever, you know, Shahab-Brakobama, for example, at key speeches would adapt King's adaptation of something from the Exodus.

And so the Exodus is the fundamental thing, but it's part of now a living tradition of that story creating a... And I think this is what people mean when they say that this book shapes the way we think. That's right. Yes, yeah. It's like giving us the actual, yeah.

Categories, think by. Yeah, at the end of the day, that's what our brains are doing from our first moments. Yeah, I think. Like when, you know, the, ooh, bright light, or that shape that comes into my horizon with moving features. Oh, that shape appears most of every day and that shape is a little different than this other shape.

But they both, you know, and then you're comparing shapes, you're making comparisons. And then as you get older, you come in contact with lots of shapes of then you realize They're you know you'll vocabulary for them their faces. They're people. Yeah, and all our brains are doing is just layering upon layering Of analogies. Yeah with pre-existing things and experiences that I've had Yeah, this is a form of that in narrative things and experiences that I've had. So this is a form of that in narrative, creating these comparative analogies from the earlier stories to the later stories. So I interpret my life by means of these narratives.

Have you read of the book or heard of the book, Metaphores, We Live By? Oh, Lake Offie. Lake Offie. You know, I'm familiar with another one of his works. Okay. Oh yeah, the one we talked about before about morality. Yes. Yes, and he wrote one called More Than Cool Reason.

It might be an earlier version of metaphors we live by. But that's an argument about metaphor, but it's a form of comparison. It's a form of comparison. That's all metaphor is. And that's just how we think. This is how fundamentally our brains think. Our brains think. In metaphor all the way down.

It just is layered on metaphor, layered on metaphor. Right. Comparing and patterning are experiences so that we can make sense of them. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, totally. I still remember when watching my kids encounter dogs when they were like, you know, infants, but could sit up, you know, and we didn't have a dog and not many of our friends did. But we had a few, and I remember the first time they encountered dogs.

And it's just watching a tiny human encounter something they have to go figure it out. Catacore is for. Yeah. It's like it's shorter than these other creatures that are around me all the time. But it's, you know, but then over repeated experiences, they build up this reservoir of patterns that they can draw on the memories. It'd be like, hmm, some of these creatures are friendly. Some of them are not friendly, like that one. Right. And there you go. Yeah. When you put it in those terms, what you see the biblical

author's doing is such a basic, I think that's why it's so memorable. When you see the narratives that they're designed this way, you can't really unsee it. Because it's just so basic to how we see the world. Yeah. The Here's another brief example. In the prophets. In this case, this becomes a part of Isaiah's way of talking about future hope. This is cool. So for Joshua, it was narrating past event, showing how it was another moment of the redemption through the waters. Here it's Isaiah, chapter 11. And he begins by talking about the little, when the kings from the line of David are cut down and a Syrian Babylon have come and we're in exile,

what are we hoping for? And he describes the line of David like a stump. And so this is the famous chute, little green branch that shoots out of the stump is the new king from David's line. He's endowed by the spirit, he's gonna bring justice to the poor, and the pattern for this, what we're talking about, picks up in verse 10, where it says it will come

about on that day, the root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples, and the nations will seek him out, and his resting place will be glory. So you have this image of the king from the line of the Messiah, future king, who stands like a big tall flagpole, and all of the nations are coming. It's a big shoot. It's actually funny. It's a root of Jesse, which is underground. Yeah. But it's a root of Jesse, which is underground. Yeah.

But it's a root within the stump. It's a root, yeah, of the stump, but it's standing now. Oh, no, it's kind of mixing metaphors. Got it. And all the nations are coming. Okay, so if Israel's been exiled because of their covenant rebellion and they're out there, and all the nations are coming, then if we're gonna get the family of Abraham back together, we gotta reclaim all the scattered Israelites

if all the nations are coming. That's the next poem. It will come about on that day, that the Lord will again use His arm a second time to purchase the remnant of His people that remains. Let's just pause right there. Okay. So God is using his arm a second time.

Now is this a second time in Isaiah, or is this referring to Moses being the first time? It's really interesting. Yeah. The fundamental image of God, God's arm, and Moses stretching out his arm. Yeah. It's Exodus icons here.

There's a little Exodus icon. Right. So the second time. So is he just riffing on Exodus? Yeah, so it's the new Exodus. Okay. And what is the new Exodus going to do? It's going to purchase a remnant, a one who remains, which is the key image of Noah

floating out there among the chaos waters, right? And that God remembers him and so on. So where are the remnant? What are the waters in which the remnant is floating when God, if we kind of map the Noah story onto the Exodus story, right? We have people in the waters going through them or people floating on the waters. Right. Well have people in the waters, going through them, or people floating on the waters. Right. Well, they're the remnant that's sitting out there in Aceria, Egypt, Patros, Kushe, Elam, Babylon, the islands of the sea. So all these other nations are the seas. Like the waters. Yeah. And he will lift up a banner to the nations oh I

know what the banner is okay king from the line of David and gather the scattered ones of Israel and re-gathered the dispersed ones of Judah so the Lord uses his arm to do what to lift a banner what's the banner there's all metaphors you could not draw this on a page. We could try. We could try. Be like drawing the song of songs. Right. It's weird. So the Lord using his arm, just like an Exodus, but he's lifting up the king, up the king, and the nations come and the remnant comes from among the nations, like the Israelites passing through the waters. And there will be a highway for the remainder or the remnant of his people who remain from Assyria, just like there was for Israel on the day that they came up from the land of Egypt.

Yeah, when they came out of Egypt, yeah, oh, no one was remaining. That was referring to the Carol Egyptians. Yeah, it was no Egyptians remaining. No Egyptians remaining. But this remnant, this remainder, is of the ones coming back, the new Exodus. Yeah. And so he's very explicitly, it's like if you haven't caught on by now, I'm talking about just like they came about of Egypt. Egypt, yeah. It was very explicit that this is a new Exodus. I'm talking about just like they came about of Egypt.

It was very explicit that this is a new Exodus, but the rescue of the remnant is a Noah image, and both stories are about passing through the dangerous waters. In the Noah story, it's the Chaos that Genesis 1 that it were pushed back. In the Exodus story, it's the waters of the sea, but also what's in the waters that's chasing them, it's the nations. So the nations are in the waters chasing them. Well Egypt is in, it's in the Israelites were passing.

They're through and now they're in it. And then the Egyptians. Yeah. So there's two threats for the Israelites were passing through. And now they're in it. And then the Egyptians. Yeah. So there's two threats for the Israelites in the Exodus story. The walls of the water could collapse. Yeah. And the Egyptians could get them.

Yeah. Now here in Isaiah, he's turned, merged those metaphorically into the same threat. That being in the nations is being in the chaos waters. Yes. Yeah. It's so creative. Yeah. Well, so creative. Yeah.

So all of a sudden this poem, like these weird metaphors, you all of a sudden realize this poem is a meditation on Genesis 1, the flood narrative, and the Exodus narrative, all together. And in a way, I guess it makes sense. Like if I were to have to imagine what God's new act of rescuing his people would look like, I would use the categories of things. Well, what has happened before?

Yes. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. Yes. So that's what makes this a good example is it's Isaiah reflecting on future hope. But the language that he has to talk about future hope is the language given him by the narratives about salvation at sunrise through the waters. So these are just four examples. I've only looked up four. Creation, flood, Exodus, no five, Joshua,

and now this one. There's way more, but those are five really good ones. Okay. So let's just watch how the apostles totally are in tune with all of this in the New Testament. The story of Gia's' baptism, for example. It's another one of these loaded stories. Yeah, totally.

Yeah, we keep talking about it as the months go by. Yeah. We keep us coming up. You read it and you tell me what you see emerging. Professor John. All right, Mark 1.9. In those days, Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. Immediately, coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opening,

and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him, and a voice came out of the heavens, you are my beloved son, and you, I am well pleased. Okay. Well, I don't think I would notice any of this stuff, but now that I'm trying to notice. Yeah, right. Well, we got the spirit. So we got the Ruak descending upon him, like Genesis 1, descending on the chaotic waters.

Oh, but also, remember the flood narrative, and the Exodus. The strongest wind. And the Exodus narrative. And the Exodus. Yep. And the east wind and the waters. Yep. Yeah. Oh, it's the strongest wind in the exodus narrative Yes, and then in the flood narrative. It's just a wind it was a wind. Yeah, pushing back the waters So here comes the ruach the spirit the wind Jesus is in waters

He's in the what is coming out of the water? Yes, and what particular waters on the Jordan in the Jordan. The Jordan. Yeah. Yeah. That's the Joshua story. That's the Joshua story. Yeah. Coming up there. And the heavens open. Is that splitting? Is that like a... Oh man. Yeah, yeah, hold on. Sorry, one second. Mark one nine. It's kind of a son of man kind of thing happening, too, right? Like a... Yeah, dude. It's kind of a son of a man kind of thing happening to you, right? Like a... Yeah, dude. It's the heavens were ripped. The heavens are ripped. The heavens ripped open.

This is first of all, an echo to a poem in Isaiah 64, where the poet says, oh, that you would rip open the heavens and come down and rescue us from exile. But the idea of ripping the skies or splitting open connected to waters is yeah, all the way back to flood story and the Exodus story. ripping open which would do you start to see that's how usually when there's a echo to an earlier story, it's not just to one, It's to the whole matrix.

Yeah, it's the library of stories. To the library of this pattern, a particular pattern. And so you can use the language from maybe one of the patterns, but you're usually bouncing off of them. Well, yeah, that's good. I didn't. Yep. So, and then the spirits like a dove. The dove plays a role. Is it a dove in the genocide, the flood story?

Oh, it's just a bird. Is it a bird? The hovering is of wings flapping. A spirit hovering over the waters. But is it a dove in the flood stories? Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, it sends out a dove. Sends out a dove.

Over the waters. Yeah. And there's a spirit like a dove. Yes. The voice comes out of heaven and you're in my son. Mm-hmm. Oh the waters. Yeah. There's a spirit like a dove. Yes. Voice comes out of heaven and you're in my son. Yeah. Oh yeah. The son is my first born son. I think a voice goes out over the waters. Genesis. Yeah. Genesis won the voice. That's right. And then and then that's what Moses was instructed to say that Israel was this. Israel. Yeah, that's right. Israel is my first born son. Yeah.

Let them go free. Yeah. Which happens as they go through the waters. And then right after the story is Jesus going in the wilderness for 40 days and nights. Yeah, which maps on to Israel's wandering through the wilderness for 40 years. So it's all unstated. Yeah. Right. It's all. Mark doesn't say like just like Moses and Israel or just like God created the earth. He just uses the vocabulary. Yeah, that's right. And so you could either say we're making this up. In some ways it kind of feels like we are, but then in another sense you're kind of like, well, like yeah, this is kind of in a way obvious what you see it. Yeah, that's exact It's exactly if he didn't mean to do that he got really kind of lucky

Yeah, so I've been thinking about this the more I you know in classroom settings of taking students through this there's an element to it where I Think we are so it's participation. We become participants in discovering new depths of meaning here. So like somebody asked when we were in, with the San Jose and doing the live podcast, what are the controls here?

Yeah, how do you get, how do you not get too crazy? I've really been thinking a lot about that because I've had other students ask the question and there's a part of me that like, yeah. That's a very Protestant question. It's all right. Exactly. But yes, that's what I've been thinking about is there's a sense in which this literature

isn't trying to close down avenues of meaning. It's not. It's like what else do you see here? What else can you find? Yeah. Yeah. And the way that the same vocabulary words split open can apply to the waters from below,

to the waters in the sea, to the skies above. So this is, it's creative. It's trying to spark your imagination and to get you to reflect and think about about how God saves the world. Now there will be a point where someone brings something up and they're like, look how this is connected. This guy eat this thing and that's the same word

as the thing over here. So at some point you kind of have to go, actually, you know, I'm not so sure. Yeah, kind of feels like you're adding something, the biblical authors, we're not tuned into it at all. Correct. Yep, that's right. something, the biblical authors were not tuned into it at all. Correct. Yep, that's right.

And so the control is then, does the community of readers kind of checking each other? I think so. And I think there's just, there are some, does it fit within the pattern? In other words, can I see this pattern substantiated across many stories? The same words keep coming up. And then I think it's ranking them in terms of like probability.

Now this one's possible. This one's super likely. The waters of the Jordan. Yeah, I think we're in the realm. We're in the, we're pretty clear. Like these guys aren't stupid. They could have picked many streams or rivers. They picked that one. So, okay, so that's the baptism story. We can walk into the writings of Paul.

There's just a few places where Paul talks about the waters. There's one in 1 Corinthians chapter 10 where he opens and he says, I don't want you, Corinthians, to be unaware of brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud and passed through the sea and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. It's just a short little thing. And from there, he goes on to then tell stories about the wilderness, people dying in the wilderness. So this is a whole rabbit hole.

I just want to make one connection here. First of all, Paul is writing to a group of Greek Romans sitting in Corinth. And he cites the stories of the Israelites in Exodus as our ancestors. No, right. Yeah. So that's... It's getting kind of loose with the...

No, he has a deep conviction that Gentiles... I was gonna say, loose genetics. Oh, loose with genetics. That's right. Serious theology, loose genetics. Serious with theology, loose genetics. That's right. That's what I was going to say. Serious theology, loose with genetics. Serious with theology, loose on genetics. Yes. All of a sudden, these people are grafted into the family of Abraham, which means the family salvation story becomes their story. And so he connects their own baptism. He uses

the word baptism, which is from the Christian ritual, but he maps on going into the waters of baptism with the Israelites passing through the Red Sea, through the Reats Sea, the waters. And it's just, it's a little side point that he makes. So what is assumed under there is a whole way of thinking about baptism and connected to this pattern of salvation through the waters. That yeah that there was this seems like this really rich paradigm of being baptized. It's not just well I you know the way in my tradition it's you're dying and coming back to life. But then but also this this, what Paul seems to be thinking about

is being rescued from chaos and being rescued from oppression and danger and all these things. Yep, slavery, all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, so it's that all these narratives that to some has a pretty deep, yeah, yeah totally. Yeah, so it's that all these narratives about whips and has a pretty deep Yes, set of meaning. Yeah Yeah, that's right. It echo it's echoing all these stories So there's a few other places in the New Testament where baptism is connected into this whole chain of stories

Okay, well obviously G.S. is baptism that we just saw. Yeah, now here's baptism of G is followers. Romans chapter six is like ground zero for Paul's theology of baptism. He just brings it up and really explores it in depth. And so we use this example here, is opening a Roman six. So what should we say then?

Should we go on sinning, knowing that God's grace will increase? Sure. No way. I mean, no way. We are those who have died to sin. How can we live in it any longer? Napaas, you go back to Romans 5. Is he, I mean, if this is a serious question, I could tell him a couple of ways you can live in sin. I mean, if this is a serious question, I could tell them a couple of ways you can live in sin. Just, just, yeah. That's right.

Yeah. So, one of the, in Romans 5 and 6, the fundamental metaphor is humans are slaves to sin. Mm-hmm. You use the Exodus narrative here. Mm-hmm, okay. So, Pharaoh becomes sin and death. The slave masculine. Yeah.

We are like the enslaved Israelites. And Jesus accomplishes the new Exodus. And because look at what he says next, don't you know, all of us who were baptized into the Messiah Jesus were baptized into his death. We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order just as the Messiah was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may live a new life. So, just so many layers, like an onion. So, now Paul has added a new narrative repetition to the whole matrix of salvation through the waters. So, you've got the story of Jesus being baptized.

Yeah. of salvation through the waters. So you've got the story of Jesus being baptized. Yeah. The words of the father to the son there were, this is my son, who my love, with whom I'm pleased. Those are all echoes of Old Testament texts about the the Messianic King. The beloved son is only one other beloved son in the Bible, Isaac. Sun is only one other beloved Sun in the Bible, Isaac. And he's called the beloved Sun in the story where Abraham hands the Sun over to death, and the Sun is redeemed from death. Yeah. Yeah.

And then in whom I'm well pleased is from the suffering servant poems in Isaiah. So Jesus' baptism is already telling you the identity of Jesus. He's being baptized to go through the waters on Israel's behalf to die. Yeah. And then the Gospel narrative plays that out. So Paul condenses all of that with just as Jesus was baptized into death. So when you are baptized, he was, he was subsumed by chaos.

Yeah, that's right. Yes, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And raised, right, the, yeah, submerged under his death in chaos. Yeah. And then raised out of death in chaos. So is that, and that's, now, we didn't look at any resurrection narratives, but do they use the words of like splitting or separating or...

Hmm, ah, off the top of my head, I've only got a couple little things clicking, but... I just was trying to focus here on the waters. So Noah saved through the waters. Israel saved through the waters. Jesus going into the waters, and this baptism that marks him on a road towards his redemptive death. And now Paul is putting followers of Jesus going into the water being identified with Jesus' death, coming out of the waters like the Israelites or Noah passed through. Jesus is raised out of death, and so, Jesus is raised out of death. And so you two are raised out of death too.

Meaning you're no longer living in Egypt. This is argument, you're no longer a slave to sin. That's what he's gonna go on to say. Okay. You're the Israelites who have been freed from slavery. Why would you go back to Egypt? These relights probably didn't really think of going through the read-see as coming through death.

No, no, I think that's a later. But now it's flinted out. Yeah, later reflection. Cool. Yeah. And just, in case you're wondering if we're making all this up, first Peter, Peter and first Peter chapter three, just says it, point blank. Okay. First Peter, Peter and first Peter chapter three just says it, point blank.

Okay. First Peter chapter three, he talks about the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah during the construction of the ark, in which a few, excuse me, eight people were brought safely through the water. Now that's an odd way of putting it. Yeah. Because in the flood narrative. They're on the water. Right? They're in a boat floating on the water.

So you can tell, he's got no a story and the exodus story merged together. Yeah. Just thinking. No, it was not in a submarine. No. But. Totally. That's how giggly that means. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Right? He goes through the waters. He goes through the waters.

Yeah. In the fish submarine. He totally does. I'm certain that's a part of what's going on there. Yeah. He was hoping he would die in the waters. Yeah. That's his purpose.

Hmm. And God takes him through the waters. Yeah, totally. There's something going on there. Much different vessel. Yeah. So, he's merged the flood and the Exodus stories and then he says, corresponding to that, baptism now saves you. Namely, it brings you through the waters and then

you immediately clarifies, listen, I'm not talking about the actual going into the water and the dirt comes off your flesh. That's not right. What. What I'm talking about is you're appeal to God through a good conscience, for a good conscience. In other words, if you allow yourself to go into the waters, you are participating willingly in this story of your helplessness that I'm a participant in the chaos, I'm going into the waters, trusting that God will bring me out alive through the other side as a new kind of human, or to fulfill his purpose for creation.

And that's what he says, baptism saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. So he says. And of course, like it all fits. And this is just a little side comment for Peter, and then he moves on with his name. He's like all these were side comments. Yes, which tells you that there's a whole teaching of the apostles that just didn't survive in the New Testament, where they've worked this out.

I really bothers me. In detail. And what we get is the little back later references to this earlier body of biblical it's biblical theology. Yeah. Yeah. Now okay so at the end of the last conversation on this last episode I said I wish this was more clear. It's clear in the sense of okay I see how all this is working this makes sense. As it comes to this idea of having a good conscience and being rescued from the slavery to sin. And like it becomes really rich and beautiful connecting that to the idea of slavery in Egypt

and crossing through the waters and baptism and Jesus dying and being subsumed by chaos and coming out. Yes, going like the priests ahead of us into the water. Yeah, it's good going like the priests ahead of us. Yeah, like the priests. Into the water. Yeah, that's right. Holding it back. So that we can pass through alongside them. Yeah. So I love it.

Yes. But the part of me, the very prostitut, like part of me that's like very modern and lightened part of me is going, but what am I supposed to do? What does it mean? How am I supposed to apply this to my life? This is all very metaphoric and poetic. And sure, I can go through the act of baptism.

But then what? And so, why am I wrestling with that? Like, why is that seem? I mean, it might just be a temperament. I think. Or, yeah, nature and nurture. It's the way that you exist in the world. You're looking for a kind of clarity about things

that aren't given to that kind of clarity. It's like if we were talking to someone who want to start following Jesus and they're dealing with all of this, their life is falling apart. There's all this chaos. And it's happening because of other people's violence and corruption. And it's also happening nature of Jesus' kingdom and wanting to be a part of that. And they're like, so like, what? How do I know? I'm part of this. Like, what does it mean? And you're just like, well, you start telling them stories of Israelite's coming out of slavery.

And that's the same thing as you're coming out of slavery. It's all very beautiful. It's all very meaningful. But then it really then makes the person that have to connect that to be, well, what does that mean for my life? What's the slavery I'm coming out of? What does it mean now for me to go through the waters today? And maybe that's the point is just to be

always wrestling with those images and thinking about that in terms of your life. Yeah, well it gives you a narrative in which you can live. Yeah. And so yeah, if I become a follower of Jesus and I've got this pattern of behavior that goes back like really deep to my childhood and stuff with my dad and whatever, then yeah, living in this narrative means viewing those destructive patterns of thinking and behaving as a form

of slavery. And it's a pretty intuitive image, especially if I keep repeating them, even when I don't want to. Yeah. Right? Then we're back to a snake whispering in your ear and like, these stories give you all the images you need to help you process through what's happening.

But also then to say, if I'm gonna find freedom, it's gonna have to be through someone else doing something for me that I can't do for myself and then Grabbing on to them and trust that what's true of them can be true of me that I can be freed from these failures and these chaotic patterns and So what do I need to do? I need to put my trust in Jesus. His life is my life, and I need to go see a therapist.

And to keep in step with the Spirit, the Spirit of Jesus wants to heal me and bring me into the promise of life. I need to work with Spirit. And I need to, yeah, I need to cooperate and not rebel against the leading of the Spirit, but work with the Ruaq. The same Ruaq that puts back chaos. In Genesis 1, it's pushing back the chaos in your own life. Yeah, but like in the Noah story, I can reintroduce chaos into my life by violence and stupidity or I can work with the Ruaq. So interesting is the image of the Christian life being piling up Ruaq, like a heap, like

the river or a heap or whatever. But yeah, just piling up, sorry, not Ruak, chaos. And then God's Ruak pushing it back. Pushing it back. And it's just like this constant. Yeah. Like, and then trying to cooperate with the spirit instead of cooperating with the. So here's piling up.

So what's the, the key to the main psychology diagnosis handbook? What's that? DSM. The DSM. What you could do is sit down to somebody and diagnose the things they're working through. Right? Right?

And you could use that vocabulary, that narrative world to identify the problem. Here's the solution and the yes to do. That's one that's one language. But the biblical narratives are providing us are also providing us with a language and a story and a set of patterns and images. And the whole point is that I see myself as a part of this story. So what we are just kind of playing out, what it means to think through an addictive behavior

that I formed early in my childhood and that I want freedom from. That's one way to describe it. But you can also use the salvation that sunrise through the waters as imagery. And both are, it's not an either or. Right. But the one that the Bible gives is this power from outside of ourselves, a power that has conquered chaos.

And it has Jesus at its center. Yeah, he's the Joshua. Jesus' name is Joshua. So he's the Joshua going through. Before us, and submerged through. Joshua and the Jordan. Yeah. This is how the biblical narratives have written. They're designed this way.

And they are meant to be read in this way. There's very little other resources like this, explore this. There's more for the New Testament use of the old. The Old Testament use the old. And there's very little out there on a popular level, helping people see this. So I'm excited about this video. Isn't this kind of what all the theme videos are doing?

In a way. They're just not, but they're what they're showing is the fruit. The fruit of it. The fruit of reading the Bible this way. And so this is kind of like a look under the hood. He can be good. Yeah. How we decide on theme videos? How you decide on the theme of it. The fruit of reading the Bible this way. And so this is kind of like a look under the hood. He can be good. Yeah. How we decide on theme videos? How you decide on the theme? Yeah. Yeah. How you follow themes.

Yeah. repeated themes throughout the Bible. Yeah. In this case, it's the paying attention to the weave of the biblical narratives themselves. So, which example should we use? Stupid humans, tempted and embraced their own destruction? Or salvation at sunrise through the waters? Yeah. One's human focus? Both be great videos. One's God's purpose, redemption focused.

Both are built on a foundation of learning to follow key words throughout many narratives and then parallels in plot setting a characterization. So this can be a capstone to the three preceding narrative videos. Yeah. Okay. I think either could work. I feel like the going through the waters is going to be a lot easier to show the visual visually how things are patterning. I think so too. It's much more visual. And the other one's, there's so much more going on.

It's so much, it's more sophisticated. It's more sophisticated. Things get reversed way more. Yeah. You know, you have the fruit, it becomes haggar, becomes cake and cold. It becomes a puzzle. Yeah. Which is also very interesting and would be a cool video.

You could pull it off. And you could pull off. The advantage we have going for a visual medium is using composition to make things parallel. Yeah. So certain things, there's screen left, certain things are center, certain things are yellow, I don't know, whatever. But my hunch is that the salvation through the waters is going to work better for us. Yeah. I'm feeling that way too.

I got a random question, not completely random. So we were talking about the flood. So I've been thinking about this. So God says, the rainbow is like a promise. I'm not gonna destroy the world through a flood. To sign. To sign. Yeah.

To sign of a promise. Yeah. Why did you just specify? Just to because it's important to sign of the covenant promise that he makes. Okay. So, you know, I think a lot about the future. And I think about, there's two different kind of ways as a Christian to imagine how God is going to deal with creation. And one is the one I think I grew up with, which is it's going to all get burned up and recreated, like, from scratch, kind of like. All right, we're done with that.

Zap you out, let's start again. And then the other one is fundamentally changed, but not destroyed. Born again. To use the Apostle John's language. Yeah. So, could you say, if you were having an argument or a conversation about which one's more biblical, this kind of destruction start fresh or this like reforming to make completely different or renewal and renewal

yeah because Peter I think has where he talks about like the earth will be destroyed by fire right something like that he uses images of fire yeah yes and things melting the things that are melting there's an interpretive translation challenge there, of whether it's the elements, or whether it's the rebellious angelic hosts of heaven, namely the rebellious sons of God being destroyed. Either way, he uses fire imagery to talk about the purifying of creation. Okay. But could we just like if just in the flood narrative with the sign of the rainbow and God's not going to, if the flood represents creation collapsing back on itself, that seems to be the paradigm of yeah, start over, let creation collapse back on itself and then

I'm going to, I'm going to pull out the remnant and we're going to start fresh. And that's kind of like let everything burn. Titanium is going down.. And that's kind of like let everything burn, Titanium's going down, rapture people out, start fresh. But it seems like the promise, the sign of the promise in the flood story is, I'm not gonna do that. I won't ever do that again, yes.

So is that just the end of discussion? That's not gonna happen. God isn't gonna do that. Yeah, yeah, I think that's what that means. Yeah, the whole point, and remember, the reason you bring to flood is the heart of humans is screwed up all the time. Right. Then the moment Noah gets off the boat, God says, you know what I know about you. Yeah, they're free.

He repeats the same thing. He says, therefore, I'm never going to do that again. Yeah. And the logic of the argument seems to be... And if it was just, I'm never going to do that again. And the logic of the argument seems to be. And if it was just like, I'm never gonna flood the earth again, it's kind of like, okay, well, thanks God, but you could burn the earth, right?

You could like send a meteorite and like, you know, destroy the earth, that you could blow up the sun, and that's gonna screw things up. So, but it seems like if the point it like, took a bit lightly, that'll could blow up the sun and that's going to screw things up. So, but it seems like if the point is like that, that'll screw things up. The sun is a powerful laser. But the flood story is not about how God's going to destroy the earth as much as it's showing you the collapsing of creation. He correct. Yeah, that's right. And he's saying, I'm not going to do that again.

So is it, I'm not going to flood the earth or I'm not going to collapse creation on itself? Yeah, I think it's that. Yeah. It's that. And so when Peter brings up that narrative, he says, remember, by the word of God, the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water by water.

So the word of God, water separate from water's dry land. And through which the world was also destroyed, flooded with water, God allows the water to fall back over. But by His word, the present age, present heavens and earth, are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of justice, for the destruction of, I'm not gonna finish the sentence, but just what in your imagination?

Well, fire destroy. So, follow through. So God annihilate everything through the waters, not gonna do that again, but I'll use fire instead. Yeah. And it goes on, kept for the day of justice for the destruction of, and you're not looking at the tax. So in your imagination, what should be that sentence?

Why should the sentence finish? The destruction of the land or the... Yeah. The cosmos or something. Yeah, right. And then what he says, for the destruction of the wicked, the purifying fire is about the removal of evil, which maps on precisely to the nature of fire imagery in the prophets. God says he's going to burn Jerusalem so that he can remove the wicked and restore the

repentant remnant into the new Jerusalem, which is the purified. Or the best is Zephaniah chapter three, when it's like, I'm gonna assemble all nations and pour out my burning wrath and fire on them. And you're like, oh, no more nations. They're done for. And then the next sentence is, so that they can call upon me with a pure speech,

pure being purified. Yeah. So even the fire imagery is metaphorical. And it's not about, yeah, deescalating creation into nothingness. Then he goes on later on the paragraph and talks about the day of the Lord comes like a thief, the heavens pass away with a roar, and then the something will be destroyed with heat, with a roar, and then the something will be destroyed with heat, and the land, and all of its works will be, and then there's a textual variant. One is burned up. The other one is discovered.

In which case, it's another melting down to expose what needs to be removed. Like melting down the metal so that the dross comes up. So here's for me, at least I think the most coherent reading is that the fire imagery is metaphorical because the things that are getting burned up isn't creation. It's evil deeds. Well whether or not the fire is metaphoric, like is it getting to that this needs to be destroyed? Oh, or does it need to be remade, made new? Yes, so I think they're depending on the communication goals of an author, the apostles will sometimes really want

to emphasize the continuity between this creation and the, for this age and the new age. And so John will talk about I am making all things new. And this has the parallel and the resurrection narratives where Jesus is showing them his hands that has to have the scars still and he has a human body. And they can recognize him most of the time. So the same Jesus they hung out with in Galilee, the same sort of thing. So point there is about the continuity and that God's not gonna give up,

he's gonna redeem this thing, the redemption from slavery, imagery, creation, redeem from slavery to K. But then there are other times, especially when the apostles are focusing on the tragedy and the horror of what humans have done to the place. And when they want to emphasize how that won't be around anymore, God's going to deal with that. How fundamentally different.

What you find is that they typically use images or metaphors that emphasize discontinuity. So the world as we it, will be burned. The sky will fade away. Correct. Yeah. And so the point there isn't, again, none of this is about video camera footage. Right. It's telling us something about the nature of the world as we know it and the nature of the world to come. And there it's that evil won't be allowed to pass through the day of the Lord. It will stop and be removed. And so both are true. In this way of talking. Yeah, but kind of like one paradigm makes you want to kind of just huddle up and wait. Hmm. Well, if another one would make you want to like go out and do something. Sure.

And depending on your social location, sometimes disciples of Jesus are in a social setting where they have the ability to do something. Other times, especially in these early decades when all these things were written in your persecuted, religious minority, living in an ancient empire. But there's no fed the lion. Yeah, toi, you're not gonna go protest. We're gonna do. So you huddle and wait and pray.

And there you go. So both can be true, I think, even in different seasons of maybe the same person's life, depending on what season they're in. You guys thanks for listening to the Bible Project Podcast, I hope. It was as helpful for you as it was helpful for me. Our show today was produced by Dan Gummel with Music by Dan Cote. This is part of our process of the Bible Project Studios, where we make short animated films about the books of the Bible

and exploring theological themes in the Bible. This podcast, all our videos which are available on YouTube or our website at BibleProject.com, it's all available to you for free because of a small army of monthly supporters who support this whole thing. So thanks so much for listening. If you are a supporter, thank you for your generosity. Onward and upward, let's keep learning and exploring and following Jesus together.

We'll see you next time. My name is Eliza McClellan. I'm from Cervalis, Oregon. I really like all the animated videos that look like comics because they're funny and they really get the point across. I think it helps me understand what's going on when we're reading the Bible because we watch the different videos in our youth group. We believe the Bible is a unified story that leads to Jesus. We are crowdfunded projects by people like you, like me.

Find free videos studying us and more at thebibelproject.com. you