BibleProject - Dreams and Visions – Apocalyptic E2

Episode Date: May 4, 2020

The Bible is filled with key moments that hinge on dreams. How did people in the Bible understand these moments, and what can we learn from them? In this episode, Tim and Jon have a fascinating conversation about the nature of apocalyptic dreams and visions in the Bible.View full show notes from this episode →Show MusicDefender Instrumental by TentsAfter Dark by Sugi.waMy Room Becomes the Sea by Sleepy FishCold Weather Kids by AerocityShow produced by Dan GummelPowered and distributed by Simplecast

Hey, this is Dan Gummel at Bible Project. I'm the lead editor of the podcast. And before we start today's episode, we want to take a quick moment and share with you note. So in this episode, Tim and John are going to be discussing the nature of dreams. You know, if you're anything like me, dreams are complex. And while it's a shared human experience, often times, depending on our background, our experiences, and our memories, these things can interact and create a different relationship with dreaming. So in this conversation, Tim and John are looking at dreams within the context of a few examples in the Bible, and some of the ways that dreams have been interpreted by researchers throughout

history. If you'd like to delve more into the topic of dreams and psychology, we would recommend checking out the research and findings of licensed professionals who specialize in this particular area. There are so many psychologists, therapists, and scientists who are contributing to understanding the how and the why of dreams, and we commend the work that they're doing. So with that, here's our episode. Hey, this is John at the Bible Project.

Today, we're talking about how to read apocalyptic literature in the Bible. And if you've seen any movies, you know that the apocalypse means the end of the world. In the Bible, the word apocalypse does not mean the final destruction of the world. That's not what it means. All you have to do is get out of concordance and look at the uses of the word. Apocalypse is a Greek word, and it actually means to reveal something or uncover something. A biblical apocalypse is when God's perspective on the world is revealed to us. The Apostle Paul had an apocalypse on the road to Damascus when Jesus revealed himself to him the prophet Daniel had an apocalypse when God revealed the meaning of King Nebuchadnezzar's dream to him. The Prophet Daniel had an apocalypse when God revealed the meaning of King

Nebuchadnezzar's dream to him. In fact, one of the most common ways that God's perspective of the world is revealed is through dreams. We think of dreams in our culture as windows to the inside of someone, so here's what's fascinating, is that most human cultures, for most of human history, have the opposite understanding of dreams. Most traditional cultures see dreams as a window to something outside of myself. It's an altered state of consciousness that potentially reveals the true nature of the world.

So today we're going to get a poccaliptic. Thanks for joining us. Here we go. So we've made it to the end of this ongoing series on how to read the Bible. Yes. These are our final topic. Yeah, the last video in the series will be how to read apocalyptic literature in the Bible, saving the best for last. Is it the best? I don't know. It's culminating in a significant way. The last book of the Bible is... The last book of the Bible?

Apocalyptic. Is a type written in a literary style that has some predecessors in Hebrew Bible and in some scenes in the New Testament, as we'll see. It's become, to be called by scholars, apocalyptic literature for reasons we will talk about. And it also shares a literary features with a lot of other Jewish literature of the same period that are in either the now contained in collections called the apocrypha or the pseudopigrapha, which we'll talk about all that. Anyway, let's start here. John, do you have any memories of recent dreams that you've had?

Yeah, I dream a lot. You sleep a lot. I was just telling my life how I had like back to back dreams. Oh, like you woke up and went back to sleep. No, actually, so this was pretty recent. So maybe it was like five nights ago. I had a dream. And then this dream, I mean, dreams are weird because they're hard to remember. And when you do remember them, you just remember these little fragments and emotions. And then to try to explain it, it just gets ridiculous.

It's actually hard, at least for me, to listen to someone else's dream. Because it's so subconscious, it's like, what is it all? I was just about to tell you two of my dreams. I don't know. I'm so sorry, no, I asked you. I asked you. But I'm just saying, do you, or do you, when you hear someone else's a scribe dream, you're like, oh yeah, I wanna know I asked you, but I'm just saying do you or do you when you hear someone else a scribe dream

We like oh yeah, I want to know oh no totally. It's always this like okay. Yeah, totally well and and Tristan's taking this life coaching class And part of it was was the importance of dreams. Oh, yeah, so she wanted to dissect that yeah, okay Let's let's talk about your dreams. It was an interesting so I don't know if I want to talk about, but I'll just say that one night I have a dream, and in the dream I felt really good about myself. And I felt like everything I did worked out, I felt like people liked me, it just felt good. And that's a rare for me in dreams. And then the next night, I have the complete opposite dream, dream where it's like I feel like I don't belong

I feel like I shouldn't be there people are just putting up with me. I'm saying stupid things. I can't do anything right Yeah Fascinating and what was actually happening in the dreams? That's where it just gets weird Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the impression that's from each dream world. Yeah, wow But in the second one, there was some flying. Oh, yes, flying, yep. There was this weird flying, where we're also shooting stuff in the sky,

which was really weird. Yeah, this is these really strange moments. We were by the sea at this one point, for some reason, it's just super abstract. Did Tristan have any insight or questions about that or did she just want to listen? I was like early in the morning and I think just the day just took over. Yeah, I understand, got it. So she didn't cycle analyze your dreams. Yeah. So this contrasting dreams about your, what your value, self worth. Yes, self worth. That's really interesting. That feels like it's coming from a place deep inside

All right, I mean those are issues we all feel and think about all the time but rarely talk about in in the open Yeah, that's interesting. I don't recall my dreams very often But one recurring dream. do you have recurring dreams? Yeah. Themes? Do you? It's very common, I think. The most consistent one I have are dreams

under the motif of not being prepared or not being done with something that I thought was done. So, a regular recurring dream is I'm either in some kind of school setting, or I'm living my life And I get a call from the University of Wisconsin in Madison that I'd never actually finished my PhD. Yes I have this dream too, but it's about high school about high school I just like I realize I didn't graduate high school. Yes, or like I wasn't prepared for a test

I'm like you get a call like you it's all like It's all a sham you have to come back and complete one more course and Yeah, anyway, did I ever tell you the story of how I didn't pass my PhD? Hmm a dissertation. No, you failed it first time. No, I I worked really hard for three years Mm-hmm on this and finished it's a huge project and I really enjoyed it on this and finished it, it's a huge project. I really enjoyed it. But I was ready to move on with my life. And it was like the big day of the dissertation defense.

So I got the professors in my department, and then I had to ask one outside reader from like a medieval literature department. And he was expert in medieval manuscripts of some important poet. Anyway, because mine was on the manuscript history of the book of Ezekiel. And so I get into the defense and it's all going pretty well. And then there's one professor who just laid into me for

a long list of typographical errors and real technical, like technical stuff, not like related to the heart of my thesis. Did she just shredded me? And so then they asked me, normal, they asked me to leave the room. And I'm in a room with like 15 other people watching the defense, mostly other students, my wife's there, a couple of friends.

Then they ask everyone to leave the room. And so I'm standing outside the room, and everyone's chitchatting in the hallway, asking me, hey, how'd you feel? That went okay. Boy, you got roasted. All I can hear is raised voices through the door in the room. Whoa. And about 20 minutes, I mean, this is a culmination of seven years of work. And my life is on the line, like the fate of my life.

Everything I'd work for. And everyone's trying to chit chat and all I can hear is the raised voices behind the door about my work. And then they let me back in and they informed me that I passed but with revisions. So I had to enroll for another semester and do this long list of revisions, do some additional research. And then I passed, and I got an email that I passed like five

months later. So you truly did? It was dramatic. It was dramatic. Yeah, it was dramatic. And yeah, oh yeah, I finished. The dreams are wrong. But that experience has left a mark on me. I know about it consciously, is when I wake up with these dreams that I actually didn't pass. Yeah. So, anyway. I think it's very common people having dreams about not being prepared, or not accomplishing or finishing a thing that you thought you did. That's right.

Or being exposed before others, like you were sharing. Okay, all right, so let's pause. Let's take stock for a moment. We're having this conversation. This is a typical of a conversation between two modern Westerners about their dreams. Right.

Neither one of us are psychologists, they're your wife's therapists, so you kinda get some of that infusion in your life. For us, dreams are strange, odd, funny, you tell stories about them, and then we have a sense that like, yeah, they're probably tapping into some deep subconscious things in me, but we see them as a window into the internal, our internal lives. Yeah, right? Or psyche. Yeah, and this is all post-froed and Carl Jung. Mm-hmm.

Don't know that much about the history of psychology. But, you know, I know enough to know that dream interpretation as a window into the reality of your subconscious, that's the meaning of dreams that I've been raised with in my cultural setting. Right. Do you resonate with that? Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally. So here's what's fascinating is that most human cultures that I've been raised with in my cultural setting. Right. Do you resonate with that?

That's, yeah, totally. So here's what's fascinating, is that most human cultures, for most of human history, have the opposite understanding of dreams. We think of dreams in our culture as windows to the inside of someone. Most traditional cultures see dreams as a window to something outside of myself. It's an altered state of consciousness that reveals the, potentially reveals the true nature of the world to you. And thanks for human history, this culture is developing.

Everybody's having dreams, just like you and I are. But they see them, other cultures see them, and it differs from culture to culture. Yeah, as a window into the transcendent or a peak behind the curtain. My dreams never feel that way. Totally. Yeah, but to me, that's what's fascinating is that even my experience of my own dreams has been shaped by this cultural understanding of dreams that I've been given.

And I've never even taken a class on it. I've just absorbed it. So what's interesting about the Bible and apocalyptic literature is this is a literature that essentially is generated out of people's dreams and visions, altered states of consciousness. Yeah. And the Bible is participating in a pretty widely shared assumption. And it's still shared in many cultures today and subcultures in America. The dreams are like putting on, there's a movie trope where like character in a story gets us a set of glasses and can put them on and then see the reality of things.

All I'm thinking of the one is the handful of movies where people can see who's an alien or not. Oh, you know what I'm talking about? There's a number of movies where it's like you put on the secret glasses and now you see who's an alien. Masquerading as a human in his own. Anyway, it's similar. That's how dreams were understood in ancient world, ancient Near East, as windows into the Divine we're having on earth are one and so I don't know I don't know if you've ever noticed or thought about how many dreams and visions there are in the Bible But it's like a lot all over Mm-hmm. And now whenever you're reading about a dream in the Bible

You're you're reading apocalyptic literature? Well, we'll talk about this. Okay. It's in a moment, it's a moment of someone having an apocalypse, but we need to first back up. What's a moment? We'll get there. We'll get there.

Before we even talk about the word apocalypse or apocalyptic. Here's talking about dreams. Just talking about dreams. Yeah. And now I'm connecting it to the fact that there are lots of dreams in the Bible and dreams we're seen as actually, if you tell someone about a dream you had in the ancient world,

they're more likely to pay attention and be like, oh, this is a message. This is, you're being given an understanding about reality that we aren't normally given. Dreams are a source of authority in the ancient world. Whereas now we just see them as highly subjective and just to the window into your own psyche as opposed to about the world at large. Yeah. Isn't that contrast interesting?

Yeah, if someone comes and tells you about their dream, you're kind of bored. And you're like, that okay, that's your dream. Yeah. But in the ancient world, someone tells a dream and it's like you got a special message from. Yes, that's your dream. Yeah. But in the ancient world, someone tells a dream, and it's like you got a special message from them. Yes, that's right. The universe.

Your 17-year-old brother comes to you and says, you know, I have these two dreams that everybody in the family would bow down to me. And in our culture, we would respond like Joseph's brothers in that story in Genesis 37. What? You're crazy. You think you're going gonna rule over us? This Joseph's dream.

Yeah. And his brothers see it as he thinks that this is a prediction of some kind, as opposed to saying you twerp. You, Narcissus. Dreams of grandeur. You know that kind of thing. I mean, they kind of do think that

because they are jealous and angry. But yeah, and think of how many famous dreams there are. Oh, the birth stories of Jesus are filled with dreams. Joseph has a dream. That's what he decided to not divorce Mary because of a dream. They go down to Egypt to flee Herod because of a dream. Pilate's wife has a dream about Jesus. She tells in the passion story of Jesus and the gospels, Matthew.

He tells us about a dream that Pilates wife has and she says, have nothing to do with this Jesus of Nazareth. Yeah. Stay away from him. Yeah. Yeah. There's lots of dreams. And there's obviously Joseph and when he gets to Egypt and the dreams, the calves. Oh, yeah. Pharaoh's dream.

Pharaoh's dream. Yeah, the three. He interprets. Yep, that's right. He interprets. That's right. Daniel interprets dreams. Yeah. Yeah. There's a whole layer of stories and literature in the Bible that is generated out of ancient

Israelites having dreams and altered states of consciousness. Yeah. How do you feel about this? I guess it doesn't seem strange to me because I'm kind of used to that. I see. But when you put it in the sense of if someone gave me their journal of dreams and said, this is really important, I'd be like, no, it's not. I mean, it's important if I want to get to know you. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Again, we're back to that. But otherwise, it's really not that significant.

Yeah, but otherwise it's really not that significant. Yeah, and so it is strange from that mindset to go back to the Bible and go look at all these dreams and how important they are Yeah, because it doesn't fit that paradigm But for whatever reason I've become inoculated to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah paradox Not paradox contradiction. Yeah, but thank you for bringing that up. That's really interesting Someone just picking up the Bible for the first time, might from our culture, would really be struck with that. Yeah, perhaps even disturbed. Really? Yeah.

Okay, not only are you telling me that you follow a man who you think is the creator become human, that's a Jewish man who died and then rose again. Next you want me to take life guidance from a book, a large layer of which is based upon ancient Israelite dreams. That's how it sounds to a lot of people in our culture. Basically, some ancient Israelites want to sleep. Neurons were firing randomly throughout their brain,

processing their lives, and they then want you to think that unlocks the mysteries of the universe. Totally. That is how it sounds to recommend the Bible to someone who hasn't grown up around it. So, here's where I want to steer our conversation. This is in Hyderabad, how to read the Bible series. There's a handful of actual books of the Bible that either have sections of people's dreams and visions that are used in vocabulary of apocalypse. There's a whole book, the last book of the Bible, that's called an apocalypse in the first sentence. So there's actually two challenges we need to address right now. First is just the word apocalyptic and apocalypse.

It has a particular meaning in our culture that is not what it means in the Bible. So we have to tackle that, bold by the horns. You like mixing a metaphor? Yeah, you could tackle bold by its horns. I wouldn't recommend it. And then second, what I want to do is once we get the biblical understanding of what Apocalypse are, to how they fit into the storyline of the Bible. And this was a whole new frontier of learning and reading for me over the last six months

or so. Dude, it's so awesome. I learned so much. Cool. And then I'm real excited to share. But I think it's a helpful place to start that this is dream visionary literature in the Bible that claims to not give us a window so much into the psyche of the dreamer.

But actually, these dreams claim to give us a window into the true nature of the universe. Yeah. And that's mean. Well, you've been talking about dreams specifically, but there's lots of visions. That's right. Which are like dreams in that it's an altered state

of consciousness. Yeah, that's right. Of sorts. You're just more of in an awake state, as opposed to a sleep state. But you weren't sleeping when it happened. It's more rare. I suppose I've never experienced it.

Yeah, I agree. And we'll talk about this. Oh, yeah. So while that being. And we'll talk about this. Okay. Yeah. So, while that being said, let's talk about the apocalypse. 1 tbh 1 tbh 1 tbh 1 tbh 1 tbh 1 tbh 1 tbh

1 tbh 1 tbh 1 tbh 1 tbh 1 tbh 1 tbh 1 tbh 1 tbh Okay, I say the word apocalypse, John Collins, and what do you hear? What fires in your mind? End of the world.

World War Z. Oh, yes. Pockelips now. Yep, yep. You got, I mean, there's lots of Mad Max. Yes. It's an apocalyptic kind of movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like, okay, so end of the world, fill that out more. Oh, just like when the order and structure of the world as we know it, like comes to an end. And I guess either completely destroyed or there's some sort of post-apocalyptic reality that now you have to navigate. And that's the like zombies or the whatever. Yeah, okay. So in that phrase, post-apocalyptic is a phrase in our culture, meaning after the destruction of the world as we know it.

And that trope in movies and literature takes many forms because it could still be on planet earth, but just a ruined planet earth, or it could be that now you're floating in space because the planet itself is gone or no longer habitable, like that. These are all post-apocalyptic scenarios. Gone or no longer habitable like that. These are all post-apocalyptic scenarios. This is the first thing we have to tackle in the video, I think, if we want to reach a broad audience, is we're talking about a type of literature that has been given this title, Apocalypse or Apocalyptic. And the meaning of the word in modern English is not what the word means in the Bible,

which is going to cause great confusion. I copied the dictionary.com. I did, okay. I was about to look that up in the notes here. The complete and final destruction of the world has described in the biblical book of Revelation. Yeah. Oh, this dictionary.com.

Wow, interesting. That's the first most common meaning. The complete and final destruction of the world has described in the biblical book of Revelation. Yeah. That's really fascinating. Yes, it is. And then the second meaning listed. The world isn't completely, then finally destroyed in the book of Revelation. It's like restored. Yeah, totally. Anyway. Okay, so there you go. So the most common perception of the final book,

the Bible, if somebody knows about it in our culture, is that it's about the destruction of the final book of the Bible, if somebody knows about it in our culture, is that it's about the destruction of the world. Yeah. Yeah. The second one is an event involving destruction or damage on an awesome or catastrophic scale. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the meaning being used in post-apocalyptic. Yeah. Just a destruction of the world as we know it. Yes. That definition has created a lot of movies and books. Yeah, correct. Yeah, totally. So, we've crossed this fork in the road so many times in this series, in all of our videos, where a word comes out of the Bible and enters the English language. Apocalypse is not even an English word.

Yeah. It's a Greek word. A Greek word spelled with English letters. And the meaning that it now has in English is not at all what it means in the Bible, like not even close. So we'll just say at one time and then the rest of our conversations. In the Bible, the word apocalypse does not mean the final destruction of the word. That's not what it means. All you have to do is get out of concordance and look at the uses of the word, which is what we're going to do right now, right now. But just to be crystal clear, it doesn't mean the end of the

world. Some moments or passages in the Bible that are in the neighborhood of the word apocalypse describe a collapse, a cosmic collapse, like in the book of Revelation, but whether or not those have to do with the complete and final destruction of the world to quote dictionary.com, that's in, that's a debatable matter, because there is a cosmos that endures that whatever final destruction right at the end of the book of Revelation. There's still a cosmos. There is still an earth. But it's a renewed and restored one. So there you go.

Not only does that meaning of apocalypse in modern English, it leads us to misunderstand what biblical apocalypses are actually saying, and then it prevents us from actually being able to understand what they are saying. So it's a double whammy. We're just out of disadvantage from the beginning. So let's go on a mission first. Let's talk about the word apocalypse,

what it means and doesn't mean. And then once we get an accurate vision of what apocalypse is our Bible, which is about dreams and visions, then we'll plug it into the storyline of the Bible, see how that unfolds, and then we'll conclude with just some skills for reading this type of literature in the Bible. 1 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 Alright, step one. In a nutshell, if you're an elevator with someone and you hear them

talking about the apocalypse, the end of the world, you could just say, you know what, here's what's interesting. Hi, my know what, here's what's interesting. Hi, my name is, here's what's really interesting. You know, I once looked up all of the words related to apocalypse in the Bible, and what they mean is uncover or to reveal. This is the meaning of apocalypse. The meaning of the word apocalypse.

Yes. It's uncover or reveal. Yep. So let's's uncover or reveal. Yep. So, let's just look at examples. The Greek word that has come in English, apocalyptic, comes from a noun, apocoloupsis, which means uncovering, but then it can be a verb to apocalyptic, which means eye uncover or eye to uncover. So it corresponds to a Hebrew word in the Hebrew Bible, which means the same thing.

That's the word gala. It looks like gala when you translate it in English. So should we just look at some examples? Yeah, and these words are related because it's Septuagint translate gala as apocalyptic. Correct, yeah. Apocalyptic. So there's one main word for uncover or reveal in Hebrew, Gala.

And then yeah, when Jewish scholars, a couple hundred years before Jesus started translating the Hebrew Bible into Greek for their grandkids, who were stopping speaking Hebrew because they thought Alexander the Great was awesome and they wanted to learn Greek. And so they used two main Greek words. We'll look at the second one in a minute, but the first one is this verb apacolupto. Okay, yeah. So here's one very clear example of the meaning of gala

in Genesis 9. I'll let you read it. Noah, a man of the soil proceeded to plant a vineyard because after he got off the tree boat. And when he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. And you bolded and underlined uncovered. Uncovered, yeah.

Well, it's just, it's such a great physical, or not a great physical image, I don't know. A 600 year old man. Naked in his tent. I don't know how pleasant that image is. But that's kind of like, when in that people were living to be 800, 900 in those biblical genealogies. No, no, it was the last of that generation. Yeah, it went downhill. He was old. Yeah, but the whole point is, it means to not have your clothes on. Yeah, naked. To be exposed.

Naked. To be laid bare. And the word there's gala. Gala. So we could look at a lot of other examples, but this, this. So are you saying I could say, when you drank some of its wine,

you became drunk and laid a pocklep. Ducley. Ducley. He laid an apocalypse inside his tent. say when he drank some of its wine he became drunk and laid a pockle-lipped dough. Ducley. He laid an apocalypse inside his tent. Yeah, he became drunk and there was an apocalypse of his body. An apocalypse of his body. In the tent. Uncovering of his body. Yeah, that's a proper use of the word apocalypse. Or turn to end of verb. His body was apocalypse.

That's funny and we would go, oh, destroyed. Yes, that's right, exactly. What you're saying, no, laid bare. Uncovered. Uncovered. That's the basic meaning of the word. In fact, here, let me just, sorry, look at something. Let's look at what the Septuagint translators did here.

Yeah. That would be interesting. Let's do it. Yeah, they just translated, and he became naked. That's the word for naked. But in Hebrew, it's, and he was interesting. Let's do it. Yeah, they just translated and he became naked. That's the word for naked. But in Hebrew it's and he was exposed, he was uncovered. He was uncovered.

And they use the kind of interpretive paraphrase word he became naked, which is not what golaw means. Right. It just means to uncover. So there's lots of uses of this to uncover. You can uncover a table, a bowl, a city. It can be, in fact, sorry, this is fascinating. The word gala is the word translated to go into exile in the prophets.

Jerusalem, where the Israelites go into exile, it's the word gala. They are exposed. Wait, is that always the word? It's one of the most common words, especially in the prophets. Yes. That we translate exile. We translate. So to go into exile as a translation of gala, like here's an example. Yeah, good idea. Five, thirteen. So he's talking about how Jerusalem has become party central, big drinking parties among the people who should be leading and protecting the city. And they're just like irresponsible drunks who

take advantage of the poor. So this is the palmry just lays into them. So in verse 13 of Isaiah 5, he says, therefore my people are galad because of their lack of knowledge. He says, their honorable men are starving. The multitude in the city is parched with thirst, so the grave has opened its throat, and its mouth wide, and all of Jerusalem's splendor and multitude, the din of revelry will descend down into it. What he's talking about is how Assyria is coming to town, and God's gonna let

them surround the city if they don't change and take it out if they don't change their ways. Which is a type of an apocalypse? Yeah, exactly. It's for the city to be used. And sorry, in the sense of the modern sense of an undoing. Oh, I understand. Right? Yeah. It's a catastrophic event. Correct. Correct. It's catastrophic, but the core meaning of Gala here is that the city is exposed to, in this case, to danger. And exposed. In chapter 20, he'll actually use the imagery of nakedness. You're going to be imprisoned in chain gangs and marched off naked to Assyria into exile.

Why is it translated exile if it, I mean, it would make just as much sense to say, therefore my people are exposed. Yeah, totally. That's a great question. I think you would just have to go in on a case-by-case basis and look at the context. I think, but because what Isaiah is predicting

is that the city will be conquered, they'll be hauled off into captivity. It's the result of being galad, I guess you would say it's a paraphrase. Well, so this is interesting. This is where the modern idea of a catastrophic event and undoing the destruction of the world as we know it. And this other concept of an unveiling,

sorry, exposing, they kind of merge. Because you're being exposed, now the realities of your own destruction is going to come upon you. And so the two ideas are both present here. Yeah, I think you can say this. The basic meaning is uncovered to be exposed or uncovered. In certain contexts, you can use the word to mean exposed to danger or attack or captivity. And because of that context, it means something more like exposed to being taken or taken advantage of

or hurt, harmed, that kind. Yeah. Exposure for harm. But that, that harm, meaning, is not in the actual word. Yeah, okay. It's in the context of the usage of the word. So you are going to be exposed. Is that going to bring you harm or not? Correct. Is, is depend on the context. Yeah. And this is just how words work. Like our English word run means to physically run down the street. But we also have this phrase we say is he runs the show or she runs that company. So we're using the word run to now metaphorically mean operating, which is using run as like

how your legs operate. I think that's how metaphor works. And now you're making something run by making it work. So the word actually means to make operate in that context. But it's the context that shows that the word run means that not the actual word run. The word run means your legs carry you down the street. Something like that.

So you're saying that the word apocalypse can in the Bible at times because of the context of mean and a catastrophic event? Sometimes people have a moment of revealing or something is revealed to them and what is revealed is about something terrible that's going to happen. But that terrible is something that's going to happen, isn't what the word means. Right. It's the word that can be used when you're talking about that subject matter.

But there are all kinds of other things that we're going to see that are apocalyptic or galad that have nothing to do with the end of the world. So what we're after is what's the core meaning of this verb that could then be put into other contexts. Yeah. Oh, so let me show you another example. Okay. 1 tbh 1 tbh 1 tbh 1 tbh 1 tbh

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1 tbh 1 tbh 1 tbh 1 tbh In the book of Genesis, there's quite a lot of dreams. We've talked about a few. Jacob's bladder. Exactly. Or staircase. Okay, so this is interesting. So in that story, in Genesis 28, Jacob goes to a certain place, starting in verse

10 and following, and he lays down and go to sleep. And he had a dream. In the dream, what he sees is a ramp or stairway connecting the land, and its head is in the heavens. And he sees the messengers being, spiritual beings. There's like traffic. And so in this sense, he is seeing the cosmos uncovered in a sense. It's like he was in a place, normal desert area. And then he's dreaming all the sudden, some veil is pulled back. And he sees what's really happening. Yes, that's right. So later in the Jacob story, in Genesis 35, he refers back to that dream, and he says, there, God, God, laud himself to me. So God was uncovered for him there. But a lot more than God

in the dream, it's like the nature of the cosmos is uncovered. So this story gives us a person, and then he wakes up from his dream and he says, verse 16, Yahweh is in this place. I didn't even know it. And he started freaking out. And he was like, this place is terrifying. This is the house of God, this is the gate of the heavens. It's like a portal. So this story, right here, this story is the biblical meaning of apocalyptic. It's perfect, example. And in that case, it was scary and intense, but it didn't mean that undoing of him or the

or the end of his existence or the end of the world. It just meant that there was some sort of vantage point now that he had. The glasses were put on as you said earlier. Yeah, that's right. He could see more of reality. More, okay, yes. All right, so let's talk about this. Let's back to our dream conversation.

We, in our culture, see dreams as a window to your internal psyche and what you're processing. This story presumes that on two fronts, think back to our video and conversations about heaven and earth in the podcast, which was like years ago. But the basic biblical cosmology is that heaven and earth are distinct realms, but they overlap,

and are actually meant to completely overlap. That's what the Garden of Eden stories about. And that's what the end of the biblical stories about. And so the biblical heaven-en-earth God-space and human space are actually overlapping realities. But in the biblical story, after the exile from the Garden, humans become, what do you say, blind to or unaware of the fact that heaven-en-earth earth overlap or we actually don't want them to because it's dangerous to us.

And so in the story of the Bible, biblical apocalypses are about moments when people wake up to the true nature of reality, what you just said. You wake up to the fact that, oh, this is a place or a moment where heaven and earth are one. We might use the word peak behind the curtain. There's a cosmology at work here because he sees heaven and earth united with this ramp, but also notice it's in a dream. So this hit me like a ton of bricks as I was processing all of this. In the biblical imagination, dreams are altered states of consciousness are in between heaven and

earth space. It's where you are able to truly encounter reality as it is. Aside from all of the conscious ways that we suppress reality and rewrite reality, it's as if it takes a... Once our conscious experience of reality is shut down or disarmed or something, sure, right? And I think we actually share this idea in our culture about dreams or altered say some consciousness that it's somehow all of the conscious ways you're manipulating reality and you're understanding of it, are disarmed. And it's just this pure window of your subconscious into your life or your experience. And I think that's the idea here is that

a disarmed human mind can see reality for what it really is. And I think, and is it that they can or is it the sense of every dream is? Oh, yeah, that's a good question. Well, no, I think, I was we're gonna go on and see it, of every dream is? Oh, yeah, that's a good question. Well, no, I think, I was, we're gonna go on and see it, not every dream is. Okay. Some dreams.

Some dreams are just dreams. There was a category for them, which is just, some dreams are just your mind in a state of rambling. Yeah, totally, and that's right. Because there's gonna be some people coming along saying, I had a dream, I had a dream. This is what Yahweh says. And Jeremiah is gonna say,

now you're making that dream up. I see. Okay. And this is interesting. You're saying that in a dream state, you have the ability to see things as they really are. Correct. Because you're not getting in the way. Yeah. You're consciousness.

You know, what's interesting about that is how, it's really trippy to think about how our experience of the world Is just a construct in our brains totally right? Yes, and yes that our brain doesn't actually care To let us experience what actually is happening correct What it wants to do is it wants to give you a representation, pretty quick and dirty representation of what's happening, good enough so that you can survive. So that you don't die. Yeah, so you don't die.

And so that you can live a life that's great. Yeah, that's exactly right. And maybe we've talked about this, but color is a great example of this. Yes, it is. Like, when you're seeing color, you're seeing wavelengths, and the color white, for example, is actually every single wavelength coming at you. Blue, red, green, everything. Yes, yes, yes.

And your brain is just like, oh, that's just why. I'm just going to represent that as white, which is not actually what's happening. Yeah. It's like every color. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's weird to think about, oh, so you know that the mantis shrimp, or is that what they're called? Oh, yeah, yeah, totally.

They can like see, they have like 17 cones, color cones or something. Their eyes are so awesome looking. They look like a glowing, radiating rainbow. Yeah. And so they can see like ultraviolet rays, they can see all these things. So they're seeing colors we can't even imagine correct imagine all of sudden getting a few extra color cones And now you can see x-rays and you can see yes, you know all these you would be looking out into the sky Mm-hmm, and it would be like some brand new place. It would feel like an unveiling

Yeah, like I've been blind to the true reality that's right in front of me. I don't have eyes to see it though. So in both those cases, like the equipment that we have to see reality, but then also the fact that we are just creating, we're almost simulating reality in our brains so that we can just navigate through what's happening that we actually can get in the way

of experiencing what's really going on. Totally. Yeah, so again, those are such good examples, John. So that's got within a modern frame. And this is what optical illusions are. Yes, that's right. Like, optical illusions are just playing on the fact that your brain is doing shortcuts. That is not actually experience reality as it is, but just helping you experience reality to be efficient and helpful. And so that's where we get at least crazy, like. Yeah, optical illusions.

And more than that, I think a like spatial orientation works like this too, where I've told you the story before. And when it's nice weather in Portland, maybe six, seven months of the year, I walk to work so I can read. Well, I walk. And so I've programmed a few like paths, a few routes so that I know like we're all the cracks in the sidewalk are and I can just read and not have to look where I'm going.

Except when I cross the street, I put down the book when I'm crossing the street. But it's happened to me numerous times where I maybe took a different turn than when I get close to the studio. And I look up for my book and I don't know where I am. For about 15 to 10, 15 seconds. And I realize, oh, I took a different turn.

Subconsciously. That's funny. And where I thought I was is not where I am. Oh, yeah. So my brain had created reality. Oh, yeah. While I was walking, I really thought you were. Created an alternate reality that didn't correspond to where I actually was.

It's a silly example, but- Well, we do this all time relationships, too, where it's like I create a reality of what I think your motives are, what I think. Yeah, why you're doing what you're doing. Yes. And it could be completely wrong, but I'm creating it so I can try to navigate through the world. Correct. Right. Now, with that said, it's also strange to say when you're sleeping or in some altered state of consciousness, you can experience reality as it truly is. You

can make the argument that no, you're actually experiencing just some even more warped. Oh, I understand. Experience of reality. Like, what makes you know, like, it's still silly. But wasn't this the core contribution, again, of Freud and Young, to say that our conscious, our ego, our conscious self is encountering reality and then fabricating narratives to make it less painful, more pleasurable, and so we can survive. And so what our subconscious is, it's an unmanipulated self. It's an unfabricated self. And the way that it communicates to us is often through symbols, images, these fantastic imagery that fill our dreams, but the core intuitions I mean you just told me a few minutes ago about these dreams of

Feeling like valued and a important member of the world. Yeah, that's affirmed Uh-huh, and welcome and then another dream where you're a fraud and a sham and all of this. Yeah, like that's dude Yeah, that's deep stuff. Yeah, let's get really good to the core and that's probably like what's really going on with all of us. But that's so sensitive and so vulnerable that our conscious self just covers all that up. It's the same thing as like the bully on the playground is probably the most insecure kid on the playground. But he masks it by overasserting.

And so I think it's a disarming place, his dream. That's right. So I actually think the Jacob story is perfect. Why is he sleeping in a field? He's running. And his mom just manipulated his dad and his brother. His brother wants to kill him. And so he has to run for his life.

And he's probably creating this whole story of why that's happening. Yes, yes. So he lays, and he's probably creating this whole story of like why that's happening. Yes, yes. So he lays down and he has this dream where the God of his ancestors, the God of Peer's Room starts talking. I'm the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. And what he hears God say is, listen, the promise that I gave to your father and your grandfather, I'm going to multiply your descendants here in this land. You're going to come back to the land.

It's as if it's this moment of clarity, and he sees that his life is actually the stage of God's purposes and plans, and that all of his manipulating and scheming and the suffering and pain of the relationships that are all broken, all that stripped away. And he sees that all of this is a vehicle of the thing that God is doing in my life. And all of a sudden, to be laid bare, or to be exposed, is that's exactly what a great word to describe this moment. Yeah. And I like this idea of it's this peeling back of your conscious fabrications of reality to the true nature of reality. Interesting. Yeah, can you imagine if I granted you the ability right now to peel all that back, would

you do it? I mean, it's like, it's a good question. It would be really intense. If all of a sudden you were able to see the true, like why you're really doing what you're doing. Yeah, yeah. And the state of the city that you're living in, and the pain and the suffering, but also the good, but just everything just becomes crystallized

for what it really is. Yeah, yeah. It would be really intense. Yeah, one version of that is going to see a therapist. Yeah, but that takes like weeks and weeks and weeks as they slowly massage you and to be able to do it. But think like that, the window to the internal is that form of exposure, that's why it's the experience of therapy is so painful for so many of us.

But then also flip that external. What if you could see the reality of all of the people and the stories that we're all living by and believing and it's all laid bare. And what Jacob sees is that his life isn't just, you know, a set of molecules bouncing off out into chaos. What he sees is that there's a divine order and purpose that heaven and earth really are one,

and that his life and all of human history is the stage of God's purpose to reunite heaven and earth. I think that's the beautiful thing about biblical narrative, is when that happens, when there's a apocalypse, when there's an unveiling. It's intense, but ultimately what you find there is the slain lamb who is there for you who wants to recreate you and find love.

Yes. I'm going to go to the next one. I'm going to go to the next one. I'm going to go to the next one. I'm going to go to the next one. I'm going to go to the next one. I'm going to go to the next one. I'm going to go to the next one. I'm going to go to the next one. I'm going to go to the next one. I'm going to go to the next one.

I'm going to go to the next one. I'm going to go to the next one. I'm going to go to the next one. I'm going to go to the next one. Yeah, so these are the two sides of biblical apocalyptic. Sometimes it's somebody who's suffering, hurting, and pain, like here Jacob, or with the book of Revelation, it's seven church communities, some of whom are being persecuted and killed for following Jesus, others of which are affluent, wealthy, and apathetic. And so, to those who are suffering, the biblical apocalypse brings great assurance. All of this pain, all of this chaos is the stage of God's loving purposes to restore creation.

But yet for the apathetic and the affluent, that same apocalypse is a warning. Like everything that you think is important and care about, it's all a sham. The power you think you have. It's all going away. It's all gonna get stripped away, uncovered, in light of the reality of God's justice

that's going to address everything that's so screwed up about our world on the way to healing it. And so biblical apocalypse is comfort and they challenge. They warn and they assure, bring assurance of God's love. But it's the same thing happening underneath all of apocalyptic in general. It's uncovering the true nature of reality,

which tells the truth about myself and then tells the truth about who's really in charge around here and what's really going on If you could peel back the curtain. Yeah, if you're exposed to someone who loves you and who's for you It can be a beautiful and intimate thing and full of joy and hope if you're exposed to an enemy or if you're exposed In a situation where you're in danger, it's frightening, horrible. Yeah, that's exactly right.

So this is the big picture of apocalyptic. The meaning of what the word is in the Bible. So what I think might be helpful to do is go through from here some more uses of the word and some more stories of apocalypse's, just to kind of keep building this portrait. It's about when somebody gets a window into the true nature of reality, and then this will help us go back to, of course,

the Garden of Eden, and see and understand it as the first apocalypse. Okay. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Bible Project Podcast. Next week, we'll continue our discussion on how to read apocalyptic literature. We'll talk about how an apocalypse

isn't something that we create, rather, an apocalypse is something that happens to us. If you read the gospels, what they're saying is that in and of themselves humans remain blind to the true nature of reality. We need the creator to pull back the veil, so to speak, and in the story of Jesus' life, death and resurrection, Jesus' claim right here in Matthew 11 is that he is the one who pulls back the curtain to the nature of reality and the nature of who

he is. And unless you undergo that apocalypse, you won't understand him or yourself or the world. Today's show is produced by Dan Gummel. Our theme music is from the band Tense. If you're new to the Bible project, well, welcome. We are a group of artists and educators in Portland, Oregon, and we create resources that show the Bible as a unified story that leads to Jesus. These resources are free because they've already been paid for by people like you who have pitched in and allowed us to

just work on this project and we're so thankful for you. So thank you for being a part of this with us. Hi, this is Sarah Worsham from Dallas, Texas. And my favorite thing about the Bible project is how accessible it makes the scriptures to people who have never gotten a formal Bible training or education. And I love to use it in one-on-one Bible study and in small groups. We believe the Bible is a unified story that leads to Jesus, or a crowd-funded project by people like me. Find free videos, study notes, podcasts, and more at thebibelproject.com. You