BibleProject - Five Strategies for Reading Revelation - Apocalyptic E6

Episode Date: June 1, 2020

The book of Revelation is full of symbols and images that are confusing when we remove them from the context of the Hebrew Bible. But if we understand the context, community, and nature of apocalyptic literature, the text can reshape the way we see the world. In this final episode of our series How to Read Apocalyptic Literature, Tim and Jon look at the book of Revelation.View full show notes from this episode →Additional ResourcesMichael Gorman, Reading Revelation Responsibly, p. 64.Melodysheep, Timelapse of the Future: A Journey to the End of TimeBibleProject, Overview: Revelation Part One and TwoSteve Moyice, The Old Testament in the Book of RevelationShow MusicDefender Instrumental by TentsSnacks EP by No SpiritFills The Skies by Josh WhiteShow produced by Dan Gummel and Camden McAfee.Powered and distributed by Simplecast.

Hey, this is Cooper at Bible Project. I produce the podcast in Classroom. We've been exploring a theme called the City, and it's a pretty big theme. So we decided to do two separate Q and R episodes about it. We're currently taking questions for the second Q and R and we'd love to hear from you. Just record your question by July 21st

and send it to us at infoatbiboproject.com. Let us know your name and where you're from, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds and please transcribe your question when you email it in, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds, and please transcribe your question when you email it. That's a huge help to our team. We're excited to hear from you. Here's the episode.

In the first century, a man named John had a prolonged vision. After experiencing it and pondering it, he wrote it down in the form of a carefully crafted letter. A letter we call the Revelation. It's the last book in the Bible. It's a confusing book. It's full of symbols, but these symbols aren't random. In a way, the book of Revelation is the culmination of all the design patterns in the Hebrew Bible,

and then it gives you the reader the commission to go look at your reality through the lens of the design patterns. The reality is to understand the book of Revelation. You kind of need to understand the entire biblical story and be fluent in the images that begin from the very first pages of the Bible and weave all the way through it. If you've been following along with us, this might become an easier task for you.

It requires a lifelong of meditation and you shouldn't do it alone. By far, the revelation is off the charts. The most dense illusions to the most different number of books. Whatever you need to read this book, you're gonna need the insights of other people in present and past. So today we're gonna get practical. We're gonna look at five historic strategies

on how to interpret the revelation. And we're gonna look at common pitfalls that we make when we read it. Thanks for joining us. Here we go. The time is near. Yes, the time of the apocalypse is near or now. Is it near or now? Where is it past? Or is it all of them?

Oh boy. These are the questions. The one that I'm going to have sponder when you read biblical apocalyptic literature. So that's what we're doing. We're going to make a video on how to read apocalyptic literature in the Bible. And this may be the last episode. Yeah, depends on how talkative we are. I don't really feel like recapping. I just feel like going. Okay. Yeah, this is, we're well into a conversation.

If you haven't, listen to the previous episodes. You could probably follow what we're doing, but it will make a lot more sense in light of where we've gotten up till now. So here, we've been talking about the meaning apocalyptic literature, the world in which it makes sense. From this point on, what I want to get is more practical, like how to actually read this literature, and understand it, at least take a step forward

in your understanding of it. So one part of it is to understand, we're not interpreting this literature in a vacuum. So it's important to know that you're likely already somewhere on a grid of how people read the book. So I don't want to quick as use the work of a scholar Michael Gorman who's created a really helpful map to understand all the different approaches and why they are the way they

are. Different approaches to how to read. Yep. Apocalypse. Different views on how to read. Okay. Okay. That will help us zero in on an approach that we're going to recommend in the video, which

actually could be at home in almost any of the approaches. But so first of all, Jewish apocalyptic literature is widespread, both in the Hebrew Bible, in the New Testament, and in literature that was never considered part of the biblical collection. So that's the first thing to notice is when we say how to read apocalyptic literature in the Bible, we're narrowing to really a small section of a much wider body of literature from ancient Judaism.

And cause it's just helpful to realize. So what we're doing now would actually hold true for reading first Enoch, or second Baruch or fourth S. The wood or it wouldn't. It would. Oh, it would. It would. Yeah. So in terms of the two books that are given the label apocalyptic, there's one in the Hebrew Bible, one in the New Testament, Daniel and Revelation. With Daniel, it's kind of a bit of a misnomer because half of the book is these dreams and visions, but the first half of the book are narratives about Daniel and his friends.

And they go to, those two halves go together in a crucially important way, but the whole book isn't in apocalypse here, like the revelation is. It's also true that there are sections of other books that are apocalypse-like, like Ezekeriah, first half of the book, is about his dreams, and visions in the Heavenly Temple. Sections of the Book of Ezekiel, it's the beginning, middle and end. The Prophet Isaiah has an apocalypse in one chapter, chapter six. The Prophet Amos has a series of apocalypse's, chapter seven through nine. And then we talked about Abraham has dreams, and visions, so's Jacob. So there you go.

In a way, what we're focusing in on is when you have a whole book or a section of a book that is full of this kind of dream imagery, that's what we're focusing in on. So Michael Gorman is a New Testament scholar who's written the most clever title of a book on Revelation. And seriously, it's the first thing I recommend to people. It's called Reading Revelation Responsibly And seriously, it's the first thing I recommend hand to people.

It's called Reading Revelation Responsibly. Yeah, so good. You handed that to my mom because you had it on her coffee table. Oh, sweet. And I've thumbed through it. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, it's so well written.

For a wide audience, you don't have to know Greeker Hebrew. So he presents the history of interpretation and mapping out approaches to how people read the book in a really helpful way. So Gorman presents this map in the form of a cross that creates a box with four quadrants. So the vertical line is called the time access, the vertical axis. So from here, this would be from the perspective of the reader, is apocalyptic literature only about the past?

Okay, some historical thing that happened to pass. This is what Daniel saw for his day and his near future. This is what John saw for the churches in Asia and first century. That's one end of the spectrum. That's the top. The middle of the whole square. The middle line is what he calls the present focus. The reader's present, it's about my time here and now. Or the bottom is the future focus. It's about events that are yet to come. So that's, you can line up approaches all along that line. There's also a horizontal axis that divides between two approaches, and this is very helpful. On the left is people who read the revelation as a code,

as a divine secret code, and it's a coded map predicting a certain set of events that will have or did happen. Based on where you are on the, you know, right, the past or future access, but the whole point is it's a code of this about a very particular specific series of events. That once they have happened, you can decipher the code, and the book will have served its function. Okay.

So the goal of these reading strategies for these approaches will be decoding, deciphering, finding one-to-one correspondence between an image or symbol and a historical event person or place. On the other end of that spectrum, and of the y-axis. The y-axis is what he calls reading the text as a lens. So this is about letting apocalyptic literature give you imagery through which you see the world. So the goal is not to view it as a code, but to see it as a set of images that allow you to think of analogies and similarities in your own environment. So the goal here is to see patterns, to understand symbols and images that help you see your own world past present or future in a different way, in light of a transcendent perspective. So that's the map. So you just go through, there's about five kind of patterns through which people read apocalyptic literature.

So one would be the predictive futurist. So this is how I was taught to read. Yep. This has been a very popular approach throughout history. But especially it's become the majority view in popular Christianity in modern America. Yeah. This is the left behind series. Correct. And in the generation before that, the late great planet Earth, how Lindsay, it's on. So this is the Texas code. And it was written down without the author fully understanding or even the original audience fully understanding because its real meaning can only be

unlocked once the specific set of events that it's predicting will take place. And the events are all in the future. And the events are all in the future for the author and the original audience for sure. And for us. And perhaps even for us. The reader. Though at some points in... Some point in human history. It'll happen.

That's right. Though a big part of this movement, the predictive futurist, interpretive movement, was to say we're beginning to see the signs. Yeah. The idea is that you read Revelation one hand and a newspaper in another, or your new phone app in another. And you're like, oh, okay, this is happening in the Middle East, this fulfills this thing

in Revelation 13. Therefore, the train must be common. Which in a way is very close to the other side of the Y-axis, which is reading it pastorally. Oh, that it is meant to make you think about the present and future, but with a totally different purpose. So I actually think more similar to this is it's opposite end of the spectrum, which is what's called the preterist or past

preterist is a word for the past. Yeah. Namely that it is a word for the past. Namely, that is a code to be deciphered. But it was all about stuff that happened in the first century. And it all happened in the first century, within the generation of the author and the readers. So you can see how those two have dominated interpretive history. However, there have always been, and there is a resurgence of views that have more of a reader's present focus and viewing the text not as a code of secret fulfillment but viewing it as a lens through

which the reader is to look at their present in a new way. So he calls these, one is called the poetic or theopoetic. I'll just let him define it. He says, the revelation uses mythical and poetic symbolism and language to express ultimate truths about God, evil, and history. This is sometimes called the idealist or spiritual approach. Essentially, it's all of the images symbolize ideals, good and evil, God's kingdom, and it's not trying to locate it at any particular time or moment in history.

It's about realities that are always happening in any time and any place. Fourth in this family over here would be, he calls it the Theopolitical. It's essentially the book originated out of a time of suffering and persecution, which is partially true. It's a document that is a form of political protest and dissent from the powers that be, namely the Roman Empire in the first century. And so its main purpose is actually to give readers a vision of the kingdom of God as the antithesis of the kingdom of this world. And it's meant to fuel endurance and faithfulness despite opposition. Another approach in here he calls pastoral prophetic. And this is the most encompassing in that it was comes from the past, but it's meant to speak to every generation of readers

through our present and on into the future, by means of its imagery through which we see the world in a new way, through these images and symbols, and that it's essentially a pastoral letter, calling the church to faithfulness, giving comfort and giving warning and challenge. So all of those are in the viewing the text as a set of glasses you put on. Those span from more of a past focus to more of a future focus. Correct. That's right. So I find that helpful and the longer at least I'm sitting with the revelation and seeing how it works, I am very compelled, completely compelled, actually, that viewing the text as a lens through which

every audience of this book, from its original audience to me, to my grandkids and every generation in between, is the adressy of the book and is meant to see their time and place in light of the images, images in the narrative of work in the book. So, and so it is working as a poetic work. I think that's how it transcends. It's the first century, speaks to us. It is theopolitical. There's very much about economics and politics and religion and power. And it's also pastoral. It's a word spoken to communities of Jesus followers. So it's essentially on that side of the column

or that side of the table that we're gonna fill out. But the preterist view, it does seem like there were things happening in for century. It does seem like there were things happening in first century. Correct. That was being talked about. But is it because you're not decoding?

Is that why you wouldn't put yourself in the preters view? In a way, this is what happens when you create these five views on that revelation. All of them actually have their thumb on something really important. That's why it's such a prominent view. So the book was written in the first century.

Yeah. So that's its primary context of meaning, which means there's gonna be a lot of reference to first century stuff, and there is. But the book, like all apocalypsees, you get up on the mountain, and you can see the whole landscape of human history. Yahweh looks down from his throne.

Right? And he looks on the kingdoms of humanity. And so it is also ultimately driven by a vision of the ultimate future. 1 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 The T's out for me a little bit more the difference between decoding and looking through a lens. Oh, got it. Reading the text as a code would be to say, ah, look, the dragon has seven heads in the scene in Revelation, and it's referred to as seven kingdoms and seven hills. And then a lot of people link this to, as a clear reference, to the geography of the city of Rome, with the, I think it's called the Palatine hills in the city of Rome.

Not even a preterist. Around it. So, yeah, that's right. Predictive view would be to say, this is going to be a new city, a new Babylon that is yet to be built, from which a world empire will be ruled. To code, we're waiting for a city with seven hills. Correct. Viewing it as a lens would be to say,

the imagery of the dragon didn't come from those seven hills. That came from the poetic images of chaos and evil in the Hebrew Bible. And those images are political images of how a spiritual rebellion at work in and through human empires and power structures, pathological. And that image is anchored in the Roman powers for the original audience. But by calling it a dragon, now frees it from its Roman context,

from being limited to that, to now speak of any human power institution that acts like the beast, for any generation, including mine. And so now that image that is anchored in the past becomes an image for me to talk about human power structures in my present, in my grandchildren's future. It's the dragon with seven heads.

And so it becomes an image for me to see there's diabolical things at work. It becomes a set of glasses or lens. A set of glasses or lens. It becomes a symbol by which I can then discern meaning all sorts of events. So then the dragon can be the Ottoman Turks, the British Empire, America, or whatever is yet to come, you know.

It can refer to all of them and does because this is gonna be as we dive into how to read the book. It's how to understand how the symbols work and how the symbols refer to things. And it's crucial to see where the symbols come from in the Hebrew Bible, because that teaches you how to know how to apply them in your own context.

Now, if the author, like John the visionary or in Daniel, there may seem to have been a very specific historical person or event that they had in mind. Even if that's the case, well that seems kind of like a Dakota ring kind of moment where it's like, hey, the little horn maybe is like, you know? Nero or something like that out loud, yeah. But I guess if you would grant that even, you would then go on to say,

but it is a symbol that goes beyond that. Yeah, part of the reason for that is because where John, for example, or Daniel even got these symbols in the first place is from the biblical tradition that used the symbols to describe something earlier. So throughout the story of the Bible, the dragon is Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Antichas of Piphanies, John picks it up and applies it to

most likely Rome of his day. And so the fact that the dragon image can be used of all of these empires, it's a design pattern. In a way, the book of Revelation is the culmination of all of these empires, it's a design pattern. In a way, the book of Revelation is the culmination of all the design patterns of the evil Bible. And then it gives you the reader, the commission, to go look at your reality, through these, through the lens of the design patterns. Through the lens.

And that's the function of the Bible. It's a set of glasses through which you see and make sense of your world. Yeah. That's why I'm compelled by these positions of the Texas sublime. Would you say though that while these design patterns are cycling through human history over and over

the dragons and the harlots and the wars and the violence and all the stuff, there will be a culminating one, a future final set that leads to New creation I presume so I mean the universe is going somewhere. Yeah, you presume so or do you think the Bible presume so? Oh, I think the biblical clothers think so yeah, and as much as it's creation is a finite reality mm-hmm apart from the sustaining, guiding work,

can't of itself produce the new creation, it has to be a new creation that emerges out of the old. But the thing is that these symbols have referred to so many different kinds of political, social events. I don't think we should mistake the image for the reality. The image is help us understand the meaning of reality and the meaning of human history. And so what the actual set of events is that marks the culmination, I don't think we're meant to see this, these texts as giving us that kind of information. Of when and how we'll see the culmination. Correct.

But it is hope and that there will be a culmination. Very much so. Yes. And that's where the predictive futurist approach understands a key element of apocalyptic. It is about where things are going in the ultimate future. But what it under emphasizes is the rooting of all of the symbols and images in the past, and the ability of those images to speak to our present, not

just the future. Otherwise, the book essentially just becomes a sealed scroll, so to speak, that is waiting for the right set of events to decipher the code. And then all of a sudden 2,000 years plus later. Now we understand what it means and it's been sealed in its meaning to every generation before us and that's an uncharitable way to say it but like what a presumptuous point of view but it's so Western because clearly America is the culmination of history. And so it would be an R day on time. I think it feels like they're living in the culmination of history. It's exactly the point. That's right. That's right. But there's something uniquely. And so it would be an R day and time. I think it feels like they're living in the culmination of history.

That's exactly the point, right? That's right, that's right. But there's something uniquely. And in some way, we always are living in the culmination of history. That's true, good point. That's really well said, that's true. Every generation is living at its version of the culmination of history. Yeah, and it feels like this must be the end almost all the time.

Yeah, for most, for a lot of people. Yeah, I was thinking about this the other day. Oh yeah, well, oh, 1917. I watched the film 1917. Oh yeah, I haven't seen that. Holy cow. Man, to think about that generation. Did that show up in the Oscars?

Yeah, I got best cinematography. And well earned a man, stunning achievement. To have lived in the 19 teens in early 20s through World War I, and to have seen what felt like the civilized world collapsing in on itself. How many young men were shipped off to their deaths? I mean, it's millions. And then within, you know what, 25 years, it happened again. You know, the two world wars were in many ways

the end of a world and the world had emerged out the other side, it's what we call the modern West. It's a different world in many ways. Those wars and cataclysm reshaped much of the human's population's reality. And so in a way, yeah, that was the end of a world. That was the end of the world. It was the apocalypse. I just used the word apocalypse in its improper sense. Oh, yeah, you did. Sorry. It's hard. Old habits.

I heard it was the end of the world. It was the culmination of human history. And yet human history continues. And heaven and earth have not been united. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. that seems to be you know you can release that fully at least not fully yeah true and there's this hope that one day it will be fully and there's this almost expectation that oh I bet it's this time in human history yeah that it fully is realized correct and on and on for every generation for thousands of years. Would it surprise you if you were carried in the mirror or something? Of course it was surprise you.

But you somehow were shown that human history survived in some sort of form of us just on Earth figuring stuff out 10,000 years from now. Or on Mars or something. I'm sure partly on Mars. Would you just be like, oh, okay. No, not anymore. I wouldn't be surprised. You wouldn't be surprised.

One of the fundamental portraits of God, and especially the Hebrew Bible, is that the divine sense of time is very different, not just very different, fundamentally different, than my experience and perception of time. It's a major theme, especially in the wisdom literature. So however the divine purpose is working itself out in history, clearly time efficiency is not... Yeah, yeah, right. But not the value. I know.

To God. Well, especially when each of us only gets whatever, 80 years. Yeah. But then you just have to reckon with the fact that God is so patient and accommodating, even just within the storyline and timescope of the Bible, with so many generations of people allowing them to fumble through some winds, many losses, and yet God is persistently at work, patiently. That portrait anymore is so powerful to me that I have no idea how long God's gonna let this thing go. Okay.

And in the light of whatever we mean by transcendent and ultimate time and eternity, even our sense of the deep abyss of time of the universe is nothing compared to that. And so I don't even know. This is the point where I don't know how to have a conversation about it anymore. Hey, there's a YouTube video.

It basically goes from today, and then it starts clicking off years and showing you where the universe is heading in terms of, I mean, it's a lot of assumptions, but like, then it goes all the way. It's just trillions of years into the future and it kind of speeds up exponentially. But you know, like because our star, it's not gonna burn out for another five billion years. And that's a long time to imagine. Totally.

But we're still in even at that point in the very earliest embryonic stages of the universe. Sure. Yeah, sure. As we can understand the stages of the universe. Sure, yeah, sure. As we can understand, you have the progression of the universe. Yep. As far as the heavens are about the earth. So I think it's got a sense of time and space. 1 ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 So I think that arms us, I think with some awareness of what Gorman calls the most common pitfalls, if you get the most common pitfalls in reading a work like what we're trying to

describe, and you understand the map I think that can arm you with some simple steps. Actually no matter what view you hold I think some simple steps that can take your reading of Daniel and revelation to the next level. Okay. Can we do this with a text in our mind? So yeah, we can pick either the first throne scene in the revelation. I thought we could pick the the sign in heaven about the woman and the stars and the baby boy and the dragon. Let's do that one. Okay, revelation 12. All right, so first let's kind of scan through a chapter in the book of the revelation. Okay. And then we can work through what are the pitfalls that we want to avoid? And what are some helpful tools for how to read a text like this.

The first actually helpful thing is to recognize this is chapter 12. And it comes out of important moment in the literary design and sequence of the book that we don't have time to unpack. Oh, but you made a video about it. Yeah, we made two videos about it. Yeah. The overview of Revelation and about 20 minutes, both videos, 20 minutes. Yeah, together. Yeah, that's right. So this is what's called, it's a pause. The story is, hey churches, seven churches, things are going to get hard, hang in there, and Jesus will reward you in the new creation.

Opening, vision in heaven, chapter four and five, and he sees the Lamb as the crucified and risen Jesus is the Lord of history. And so he can open up the scroll which symbolizes God's purposes and plan for the cosmos. What was that song? Oh, Psalm 33. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you said, wouldn't it be great to be able to know the plan? Yeah, to know the plan. And here is the Lamb. Yeah, to know the plan. And here is the land.

Yeah, here's the land. Unrolling the plan. Seizing and opening the scroll of God's purposes for history. And what fold out of it are three cycles of seven, of seven acts of divine justice that represents God's justice on humanity's evil and that vindicate the blood of the innocent that has been spilled on the dry land. It's all about the cane-enabled story and the flood narrative, purifying the land

from the innocent blood shed upon it. What is the first book of Revelation? Seven seals. And what the sevens represent. All of the sevens are iterations of the flood design pattern in the Hebrew Bible. Because the flood design pattern then becomes the 10 plagues, which is a new flood of divine justice,

which becomes the conquest of Joshua on the Canaanites as new flood of divine justice. And there's all through hyperlinks and word patterns and so on. But you get this portrait of when there are moments of God bringing the hammer on the city of man because of the shedding the blood of the innocent. All of that's rooted in Genesis 1 through 11. And so these cycles of seven, the opening of the scroll, the seven seals of the scroll, the seven trumpets, the seven bowls of God's anger. Each one of those is working out. Literally the language of all these sevens is you take the flood narrative,

the ten plagues, the conquest narrative, and that a bunch of stuff from the prophets about the fall of Babylon. Yeah. And you put them in a blender. Right. That's what you get. So chapter 12 through 15 represents a pause in between the second and third cycle of seven.

It gives you almost a meta commentary on the whole biblical story. It retails the whole biblical story in a set of seven signs, there's seven signs that he sees. And this is the first one, I'll read the book 12. A great sign appeared in the heavens. A woman closed with the sun, the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child, she's pregnant.

She cried out in labor, and in labor pains gave birth. Another sign in the skies, a great red dracolin dragon. Seven heads, ten horns, on the heads of seven crowns. His tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven, throwing them to the land. the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth so that when she gave birth he could eat the child. Whoa, she gave birth to a son, a male child, who was to rule all of the nations with a rod of iron. But that child was snatched up to God in his throne. The woman fled into the wilderness where a place was prepared for her where she could

find nourishment for 1,260 days. This is what I'm talking about. We've done like five hours of conversation about and it's been wonderful. Yes. But then you just start reading this. Totally. Yeah. And it's like what in the world been wonderful. Yes. But then you just start reading this. You totally, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like what in the world? Totally, totally.

Okay. It's a cryptic fantasy novel. It's totally, all right. So step one in reading apocalyptic literature. Read the work as a whole. Okay. All right. That's not gonna help you for this,

but just read the whole work. And as you do, start to pay attention to... And be prepared to be confused. 90% of the time. Yeah, just like the rest of the Bible. It's meditation literature. Understanding will not come quickly when you're reading Jewish meditation literature. It's just there's no two ways about it. Yeah. Well, listen to it. Because the opening paragraph of this book, Revelation said it was designed to be listened to. Yeah. So it says it. Because the opening paragraph of this book, Revelation, said it was designed to be listened

to. So it says it. Second step is recognize that it's dream literature and then it's dream literature that happened to people who were the most ultimate Bible nerds you could imagine. And so their dreams and then how they represent those dreams and literary works is going to be like Jewish meditation literature. Super dense, full of hyperlinks and illusions, and because it's dream literature, symbolism. I think the easiest way to communicate the fact that it's imagery and symbolism is that it's rooted in dreams and visions, just to go back to our first episodes even.

And that it's about design patterns too. It's about design patterns, that's exactly right. So in the same way that these aren't as popular anymore in our culture, when I was growing up, for some reason I found out about the comics page of the newspaper, and then particularly political cartoons, I don't know why I liked them as a kid, I thought they were funny. And because they were usually really fantastic images

of caricatured political leaders. Right. And then often, but often, people are depicted as animals. Yeah. And so it'd be like a donkey, a democratic donkey, sitting on top of a building, you know, or an elephant, a public and sitting, you know, in the national mall with a big plate of food in front of it.

Actually, this is the great analogy for apocalyptic literature. If you were from another culture, you would look at that and just be like, silly. These people think elephants sit in the national mall eating meals like what is this? Obviously. It's an insider lingo to a subculture

and apocalyptic symbolism works the same way. You're just supposed to know what the symbols are. So you talked about that y-axis of like decoder ring to lens. And here it feels like you kind of have to use the biblical theology decoder ring in order to discern the lens. Correct. Like what is a dragon? Yes.

Okay well how does the Bible talk about dragons? Okay. That's the decoder ring. That's it. And then now let's look at that, not as, now we need to decode a specific event in human history. Now it's a lens to look at all of human history. Yep.

Exactly right. We're into it. Key steps for reading a polypocalyptic literature wisely. First thing, we talk about just a minute ago. Read the work as a whole. And look at how themes and ideas develop, and especially look for the most repeated anchor images. So in the revelation, this is gonna be

the heavenly throne room, the Lamb. Jesus has only referred to in two places in the book as something other than the Lamb. He's the son of man in the first chapter, and he's the word of God on the writing on a white horse in the book as something other than the Lamb. He's the son of man in the first chapter, and he's the word of God on writing on a white horse in the end. In the middle, he's always the Lamb. The dragon and the beast. Essentially, these are the one on the heavenly throne, the Lamb, the dragon and the beast. And are like the key characters in the story. So those are clearly anchor images. And so as I want to go through the book,

as I'm reading it in sequence, then is to begin to identify what the symbols are and then begin to decode them, not decode the book, to look for predictive fulfillment, but to decode the symbols to understand what they mean. And there's two places that you need to look. The first is always the Hebrew Bible. The second layer is first century Greco-Roman context, which is a little bit harder, because you can't just turn there, like you can with the Hebrew Bible. So let's start with the Hebrew Bible. And let's go back to Revelation 12. well. So, a great sign appeared in the heavens.

There is a cosmic woman in the skies. So there's actually, we could get really nerdy on this. Twelve stars, you know, something to do with the zodiac and people go a lot of places with this. Let me just go very basically. Can I think of anywhere in the Bible where humans, male and female are described in a way that have a cosmic identity where they in some way are associated with the transcendent divine realm of the stars. And I think the should send our imaginations to the exaltation of the humans in Genesis 1 and then in God's promise to Abraham that your seed will be like the stars.

Psalm 8, God's taken the dirt creature but exalted him with divine glory to rule above the cosmos. So a cosmic woman. Cosmic woman. Elevated among the stars. Now we also have the Proverbs cosmic woman. Is that related? Lady wisdom, maybe? Yeah, yeah, oh for sure.

Yeah, that's right. A cosmic woman who's pregnant and in grief, in labor. This is Genesis 3. Yeah. This is Genesis 3. This is Genesis 3. Great pain, you'll childbirth, but the seed will. But through that grievous toil of childbirth, a redemptive seed is brought forth. So we're first introduced to the cosmic woman,

then we're introduced to a great dragon. So then I get out my concordance and I'm looking for dragons in the revival, and there's lots of them. dragon. So then I get out my concordance and I'm looking for dragons and he revival and there's lots of them. And they're also associated with snakes and reptilian sea creatures and so on. And then I think, oh yes, Genesis 3 once again. The woman versus the snake. There's all this whole chapter is about Genesis 3 with 15. The seed of the woman and the snake, and hostility between them,

and then hostility between the seed of the woman and the seed of the snake. Seven heads, 10 horns and diadams. Oh yeah, later in the book, I'll be given a clue that the seven dragon heads are seven kings. Okay. I know seven from Genesis 1 is a number of completeness or totality. So all the kings? Clue that the seven dragon heads are seven kings. I know seven from Genesis one

is the number of completeness or totality. So all the kings. Yeah, this dragon is at work among all the kingdoms of the earth. Seven, 10 horns. 10 horns is. This is from Daniel chapter seven. Yep, the horns of the beasts,

which represent these little towers of human arrogance that emerge from the kingdoms of this earth. And so this dragon is represented through the kingdoms of the earth, the heads, and the horns. But he's also rallied alongside of him some of the stars of heaven. Yeah, the host of heaven. Yeah, the host of heaven. The rebel divine council. And now we're to the sons of God and Genesis 6 and the Nephilim, the rebel warrior kings of the ancient world. Yeah. And now we've got the seed of the snake, kings of the earth and rebel violent humans.

Oh, the seed of the snake, yeah. So then we're back to the snake, but here's the thing. Because in Genesis 3, the prophecy that God gives, or the what would you call it? Oh, prophecy. It's a promise. The seed of the woman will be at odds with the seed of the snake. Yeah. And the seed of the woman will crush the head of the snake.

Correct. The snake will bite the human's heel, venomous bite, but the snake will be destroyed. Yep, so notice then at the end of verse four, the dragon is standing there trying to eat the child, trying to kill it, like Pharaoh, trying to kill the seed of the woman. Verse five, she gives birth to a son and the description of the son comes from Psalm 2. He's going to rule the nations with a rod of iron. It's copy and paste from Psalm 2, which is about the seed of David. And then that child is exalted up into the heavens and to God's throne. So if we're talking about Jesus here, this is about Jesus coming onto the scene and then exalted up to the divine throne. And then the woman then becomes this stand-in, as it were, for her child. Her child's exalted up in the heavens, and she's now down in the realm of the dragon.

And so she goes into exile in the wilderness, and God provides for her in exile. This is Hegar. Is Hegar? And it's Lady Zion from the Book of Lamentations. And then God cares for her for three and a half years, 1260 days. Three and a half years, just half of seven. Which is a half of seven. The meaning of that all comes from the Book of Daniel. Is that God's work is coming and Sabbath cycles and seven.

His work of creation happened in a Sabbath cycle. His work of new creation is going to happen in Sabbath cycles. And so to say somebody's there for half a Sabbath cycle is to say, it's like 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness. You're waiting in the wilderness, but God has a purpose. The seven is yet to come to say half a seven. Okay, that was short, but you kind of get it. You have to... Yeah, you kind of have to know the whole Bible. You have to know the whole Bible to make sense of apocalyptic literature.

Yeah. How does that feel? Well, actually in one sense, we read that. When we were reading that, I was picking up on a lot of it because I think we've been reading the Bible together for a long time. I got thrown at the 1260. No idea what that was. Iron Scepter. I didn't know that from the Psalms.

The woman fleeing into a wilderness. And then the woman fleeing, yeah. So when we got to the Iron Scepter and the woman fleeing into the wilderness for 1260 days, I just was like, oh, I'm lost. But up till there, I was like, oh, yeah, this is about Genesis 3. I was picking it up, which I wouldn't have before. The tale sweeping out the stars of the sky, I didn't pick that up as the seed of the snake. I thought that was more maybe God's judgment.

I've been in some sense. So I mean, it's hard. Yeah, yeah. It's like, there's a lot here. It's true. But to be honest, this is just as dense as biblical narrative. And it's just as dense as the prophetic books. It's as dense as the Psalms are.

It's biblical literature. But somehow like the bizzaro factor is more on the surface, at least for a lot of modern readers. Yeah, it's as dense, but then it's also got that bizzaro part of it which makes it feel even less attainable. It makes me go, how am I supposed to be? What kind of jiu-jitsu am I supposed to be doing to figure this out? Yeah, yeah. Versus when I'm reading a really dense narrative or something, I'm not really thinking of that.

I'm not like distracted by that. Yeah. So really, the art of interpreting apocalyptic revelation in Daniel is the art of reading the Bible as a unified whole and understanding House design patterns and symbols Developing images work throughout the story and the revelation and Daniel They're like the deep end of the pool of the old and new testaments and they assume a lot of the reader So one of the best things you can do to understand these two books in the Bible is to read the rest of the Bible.

And then also learn how to use a concordance, which there's digital versions now, so many of them, and where you can just look up dragon. And then you'll start seeing that dragons are in the same context as snakes, and then it would be like a theme study on dragons and snakes. Well, honestly, though, how much of this can you pick up on your own versus, I mean, like, for example, you, you read the Bible and I'm sure you pick up on this kind of stuff, but also you just read other scholars who have picked up on it. Totally. Oh, yes, that's right. Yes. So it's not simply just...

Yeah, this is our mantra, don't read the Bible alone. Like do, but also don't right yeah, you know put me on an island with the Bible Yeah, and every day. I'm gonna read it meditate on it with this paradigm in mind. Mm-hmm. I'll find some of it Mm-hmm, but man It would take a lifetime but to connect dragons to serpents to the seed Yeah, and I'm like oh my goodness Yeah, but I just that was just like scratching the surface where when you're reading it in community with other people who have been doing it for lifetimes.

Yeah, that's right. It's like such a head start. Yeah, no, that's totally right. Yeah, you have to read it in community. It was designed to be read aloud to seven communities. And that's exactly right. Yeah, I have this interesting chart by Scholar Steve Moye's called the Old Testament in the book of Revelation. It's about hyperlinks to the Hebrew Bible. And yes, he's cool comparative charts about the number of direct references or quotations for the Revelation. Just quick scan here. 82 references to places in the Torah. 97 to the Psalms, 122 references to Isaiah, 48 to Jeremiah,

83 to Ezekiel, 74 to Daniel, 73 to the minor prophets. So, and he compares it to references in Hebrews, Matthew and Romans, and by far the revelation is off the charts. The most dance illusions to the most different number of books. Whatever you need to read this book, you're gonna need the insights of other people in present and past. But it's really, these steps are almost too simple because they're, they imply so much. The first is read it as a literary hole.

Great. Because what, preterist and futurist approaches tend to do is isolate images and symbols as codes out of context in the hole. So, you know, the most famous one is like the, whatever the demon locust beasts of one of the seals. Uh-huh. You know, like helicopters.

Yeah, yeah, this is how Lindsay in the like the late 70s thinking that they're you know like a patchy Helicopters. Yeah, and so that's so ignoring what that particular Like strike of God's Justice is doing in the sequence that it's in in that place in the book and what locusts do throughout the whole story And then what locusts symbolize throughout the Hebrew Bible. That's exactly right what locust symbolize throughout the Hebrew Bible. That's exactly right. So reading it as a whole, and then second is a lifetime of just creating your own little spreadsheet of symbols. What's the symbol?

And here's the thing, there's about a dozen different symbols interpreted for you the moment they're introduced, especially in the book of Revelation. So in chapter one, Jesus has said- It's kind of like when you get the worksheet from school and the first couple are filled in. Yeah, that's totally, yeah. Yeah.

In chapter one Jesus is holding seven stars and seven lamps. Yeah. These are the angels and the seven churches. The angel in chapter eight has a sensor incense bowl with incense going up to the divine throne and you told these are the prayers of the saints. This happens multiple times in the book. So you're already being... Those are the ones that John doesn't think you'll get on your own.

I guess so. That's a good point. Yeah, I don't want to believe at this point. I think we've already made the point. Let me just pause in an implication of this. It's an implication that I wanted to highlight when we talked about poetry and metaphor in our How to Read the Bible series.

This is yet another whole section of the Bible that's primarily appealing to our imagination, imagery and symbols. And imagery and symbols communicate more than just an idea. They shape your view of reality. When you shape somebody's imagination, you're shaping their sense of what is real. You shape somebody's imagination, you're shaping their sense of what is real. And here we are to two more books of the Bible and the sections of a bunch of others, where when people ascend into the heavenly realm, they get a God's eye view of past, present, and future, but what they see are symbols. To me, that's just that's so important to protect and honor that. It's another part of the Bible shaping us

more than it is giving us information. 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1%, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1%, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1 And the image of a slain lamb on a throne shaping us. Yes, the victor of Daniel and the Revelation is a human who's been trampled by beasts, who's vindicated by God to rule the world. And in the Revelation, it's a sacrificed lamb with a slit bloody throat that is the king of the cosmos. Because these are images that will shape us to be true humans. That's right. To shape us to be the image bears when we let them do their work on us. Yes. What else does an image of a victorious slain lamb mean, except that those who follow the

lamb, which is the description of Jesus' followers in the book of Revelation, those who listen to the lamb's voice and follow him wherever he goes? It's an image that undercuts all sense of triumphalism and superiority, whatever God's kingdom looks like, it doesn't exalt people. It exalts the one human who did for us what none of us could do for ourselves and whom we killed, with whom we all partnered with the dragon in participating, in contributing to a world system that killed our creator. But his love and creative power is so great that even death can't conquer his love and

life that he wants to give us as a gift. That's what these images mean. So powerful. And so this is Michael Gorman's point, then the pastoral function of this book is to summon every generation of its readers to follow the Lamb in its footsteps and to resist the beast within and without and to suffer along with the Lamb if need be and bearing witness to what he's done. Yeah, if that's not where it ends, then that we've totally missed the purpose of Poccliptic literature. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Bob a Project Podcast. Next week we're

going to do a question and response episode on how to read a Poccliptic literature and then after that we're going to begin a brand new series on how to read apocalyptic literature. And then after that, we're gonna begin a brand new series on how to read New Testament letters. It's a series we skipped so that we could get to apocalyptic literature quicker, so we're gonna circle back, and we're gonna look at the small books at the end of your Bible written by Apostles of Jesus

to the early Jesus communities in the Roman world. The first two episodes we actually recorded live in Dallas, and it was a lot of fun, and I can't wait for you to hear it. The letters actually become easy and accessible, I think, only when we ignore their literary form. And when we honor their literary form, all of a sudden we have a way to account for all of what's there, not just some of what's there, and all of what's there includes a lot of text that are really challenging for us to appropriate or understand in our modern context.

And so this is the swirl of challenges that comes along with contributing the New Testament letters. Talk about how y'all are living stones. Oh, you left because I said y'all. Yeah, sorry. It's like I don't know what it's funny It's cool, but it's not funny. Maybe it's funny. I don't know Today's show was produced by Dan Gummel our theme music comes from the band Tents If you're new to the Bible project

We are a crowd funded non-profit in Portland, Oregon. Our mission is to experience the Bible as a unified story that leads to Jesus. So we make all sorts of resources, this podcast, videos, we've got some study notes and other downloads on our website. It's all free and you can find it at Bibleproject.com. Thanks for being a part of this with us. Kajimura tatu. That's Hello, how are you, Minoirish?

My name is Kiva and I am from Kleelem, Washington. That's in Central Washington. I use the Bible project in the ministry that I work in, where I do discipleship training and character training. We believe that the Bible is a unified story that leads to Jesus, where a crowdfunded project by people like me find free videos, study notes, podcasts, and more resources at thebibelproject.com. you