BibleProject - Image of God Part 2: God and Human's Makeover

Episode Date: March 1, 2016

In this episode, Tim and Jon talk about what it means to be remade into the image of God. This is a different Christian narrative than we usually hear, but it’s all right there in the Bible. The guys will talk about the image of God throughout the New Testament and how humans reigning on God’s behalf is part of the gospel. In the first part of the episode (02:15-5:52), the guys confront the familiar Christian narrative that says humans are terrible and screwed up and God just puts up with us. Humans are sinful, sure, but they’re also treasured by God and a crucial part of his plan for humanity. The biblical story is not about how terrible people are. It’s about God’s plan for the world and how he will restore and heal the image of God in humans and fulfill the original calling he gave in the garden. In the second part of the episode (06:19-12:10), Tim and Jon talk about God’s plan for humans to reign on his behalf as the image is repaired. Paul picks up the language of the image of God to talk about Jesus and the process of becoming new humans and being renewed according to the image of God. In the next part of the episode (12:29-19:24), the guys discuss what our divine purpose is as humans. Do we try to advance the human project (moral progress), or do we withdraw (remove ourselves) as we wait for God’s new creation? In the next part of the episode (19:46-29:50), the guys talk about what went wrong with the image of God in humans and why it’s in need of repair. How does the image of God connect to the garden and the knowledge of good and evil? In the final part of the episode (30:21-47:19), the guys talk about the garden of Eden as it relates to God’s image. There is a familiar narrative that the garden was perfect and then humans came in and ruined everything, but as Tim will point out, it’s more complex than that. The garden was only the beginning; it had potential for perfection, but it wasn’t God’s plan for creation fully realized––not yet. Genesis is not the end of the story. As image bearers of God, there is still hope for the completion of the story and the fullness of God’s Kingdom. Video: This episode is designed to accompany our video called, "Image of God." You can view it on our youtube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbipxLDtY8c&t=2s References: What is the Hope for Humanity? A discussion of technology, politics, and theology with N.T. Wright and Peter Thiel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9Mlu7sHEHE Scripture References: Psalm 8 Genesis 1 Show Music: Defender Instrumental by Rosasharn Music Blue Skies by Unwritten Stories Flooded Meadows by Unwritten Stories

Hey, this is Cooper at Bible Project. I produce the podcast in Classroom. We've been exploring a theme called the City, and it's a pretty big theme. So we decided to do two separate Q and R episodes about it. We're currently taking questions for the second Q and R and we'd love to hear from you. Just record your question by July 21st

and send it to us at infoatbiboproject.com. Let us know your name and where you're from, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds and please transcribe your question when you email it. That's a huge help to our team. We're excited to hear from you. Here's the episode. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪

Hey, this is Jonathan Collins. In this episode, we're going to continue the conversation with Tim McE on the theme image of God, which we started discussing in the last episode where we saw that this phrase shows up in Genesis and has a lot of meaning for why we as humans exist. The God wants his world to be a place where life flourishes, where life multiplies, and that's going to require a lot of subduing and harnessing all the potential and resources in the dirt and fish and cows to make it work. And when humans do that, they are said to be an image of the God of Israel.

The word image is usually translated into English as the word idle, referring to idle statues. So you end up with this interesting paradox that's beginning of the story of the Bible, which is going to be about a God who tells people to never make images of him, but then page one begins the story with this God making an image of himself and his humans. So that's interesting that you're not supposed to try and image this God because images of this God already exist namely the you and the person sitting next to you.

So all humans are given this title, the image of God, and it's a title that demonstrates that we should be It's a title that demonstrates that we should be ruling and subduing the earth and expanding the garden, continuing in God's creation. This to me is a fresh perspective, but it's right there in the text, and I'm really excited that Tim's unpacking it for us, so we're going to continue discussing this theme with Tim. Here we go. Now it's time to rest. We never talked about Psalm 8. Psalm 8, which is also a reflection on the image of God. In Genesis 1.

Psalm 8. Yeah. What is mankind that you are mindful of him, the Son of man that you care for him? So, yeah, like, what? Yeah. Why are humans so world? Why are we important? Well, you made them. You made them. Or made humans, humanity, a little lower than Elohim. That could mean God.

That's the word for God. It is also if the context doesn't indicate, can refer to plural-divine beings. So then angels or angelic beings. Can be God or a community angel. Depending on the context. New international version said you made them a little lower than angels. ESV, a little lower than the heavenly beings.

New American standard, a little lower than God. NRSV, a little lower than God. King James, a little lower than the angels. So the point is that humans are a little lower in status than the divine beings, but they are crowned with glory and honor. You made him ruler over the works of your hands. You put everything under his feet. So here's a poetic reflection on humans as being not God, but having an exalted status over creation, kings, and rulers that's very close to God. So what's useful about Somae is it's poetically unpacking the image of God. And when it does so, it doesn't talk about rationality or spirituality, it talks about our purpose as ruling and subduing and that kind of thing.

We are a species that is the crown of the species. And we find, and it's as we find ourselves to be a species that has power over all other species, there's a responsibility that comes along with that. So you have this vision of humans raining, ruling, and that's where the account of the Bible begins. In Genesis 1, that's the vision. Yeah. And then in Revelation, yeah. What is it? 22? 22. Yeah, it's the second-to-last paragraph of the Bible. Second-last paragraph of the Bible. Yeah. It's division again. Yes. Yeah. You have got on his throne with the new humanity serving him, but they serve by reigning forever and ever. That's where the account of the

Bible ends. Yeah. I don't think that's a message that we're told a lot in Christianity is a sense of the purpose of humanity is to is to reign. Yeah, so think the dominant Christian narrative in the America among conservative Protestants is humans are really bad your horrible God's really good. You need Jesus to make you like God, so you can live with Him forever and ever. But this is a different kind of story. This is God is being really generous and is like sharing His world with humans and wants them to

enjoy it and to take it somewhere. And then humans rebel and set up an alternate kingdom. And begin to dishonor the image in each other. And then the story of the Bible becomes, how is God going to restore and heal the image and make a humanity that fulfills the original calling? And then that's what Jesus opens up. The chief end of man is to glorify God. What does that come from? And enjoy him forever.

That's what's minister confession. And then I think I learned probably even a distortion of that which was, thank God that he's putting up with you. You know? Yeah. Thank you, you're lucky stars that you aren't being punished forever. Actually, this reluctance to even admit that God actually treasures humans in any way. That's actually the spirituality I grew up in. But yeah, this idea of the whole plan was for humans to reign on God's behalf. And the conflict then being God trying to renew that, so that the humans can reign. God's creation. Always meant for the human key. Which is different than what your bad news and God will make you good enough so that you can hang. Yeah, I mean you can see that there's little there's so many half

truths that's in there that it's just not helpful but there are half truths in there. So if humans are an image of God, it does mean that what we admire in each other is a mirror orase of the images that were reflected mirrors that are meant to we actually we did this in Genesis 111 video we had God's character goodness bouncing off of humans out which wouldn't have been an image from back then that's a more modern image. Yeah, it's a metaphor the idea is that humans as we represent God we bring honor to the mysterious amazing being who has the creativity and beauty to think all this out. So here's what it is. What's the end goal?

What's the end game? Is it, get saved and behave so that you know, you could hang with God and his kingdom someday. So the hill let you in the. So the hill let you in the presence. Saved and behaved so he'll let you in. Or is it reflect his image so that you can participate in the ruling of creation? Yeah, yeah. And that if we are honest with ourselves, you know, we know that we are a poor reflection,

even of the kinds of humans we want to be for ourselves. Right. We know that there's something greater that we're called to be and to do, but we keep underachieving. Right. So there's the existential sense where I think that's a pretty universal be into do, but we keep underachieving. Right. So there's the existential sense where I think that's a pretty universal to the human condition.

Right. And so the biblical narrative is putting a storyline to that to say, yeah, this is real. Like we actually are a diminished form of what we're made to be. You know, it's interesting. This is a footnote, but this is an underlying theme in all of C.S. Lewis' writings. Like in the space trilogy or the weight of glory that humans are called to be like gods. You know, he has that great paragraph where he says, if you and I truly grasped the glory of the person sitting next to you on the bus, you would be tempted to bow before them.

So, I'm thinking, but that's the idea here is we're get where Like that there's an opportunity to live back into that glory. Yeah, even though it's been tarnished really really badly That's right. That's right that that that's the good news is that is that that can be reclaimed It's it's an aspect of the good news, which is why. So we're going all over the notes. It doesn't matter, but it's why Paul the Apostle is the first one that we know of to pick up the image of God language from Genesis 1 and to use it as a way to understand Jesus. He calls Jesus the image of God.

There's the truly human one. But then he talks about the process of us becoming new humans as being renewed according to the image of God. It's in Colossians chapter 2 and 3. He talks about the image of God being renewed through Jesus who is the image of God being renewed in us through Jesus who is the image of God. So he's got this idea that Jesus is the truly human one. Jesus is the true representation of God's reign on earth. And that is we are joined to him through faith and the Holy Spirit through divine breath from Genesis 2, that we are recreated as being recreated as the kinds of humans. And so, again, join it Genesis 1, so Paul doesn't envision, that means,

Viva la revolution, that you go start a Christian sect and monster and take over. Right. It's just something we were talking about the other day. Yeah, from hardcore history. Hardcore history. Yeah. Podcast. Yeah. Right. So that means Christians go take over the world. It means Christians do what humans always have been do, which is go to have babies and yeah. Or go to work and make something of the world. But we do it in a way that our character and our moral mindset is being renewed to become like Jesus has been love of God and

neighbor and so on. And that's that's how that's one way Paul envisions the whole storyline of what Jesus is doing. He's restoring our humanity. Okay, so we're not trying to Viva-Lah revolution take over and start our own Christian cult. So are we supposed to basically advance humanity for the sake of the Kingdom of God? Yeah, there's two tendencies. You call it the humanist tendency, which is kind of this narrative of moral progress, and we're just getting better and better and more technology and do away with poverty and injustice and just more education.

And so there's an element of that that is really true to the biblical story, like that humans are amazing. And we're capable of such good. And because that's part of our divine task, but then that also always ends up being compromised and messy and ends up hurting as many people as we help. So then you also then have the more withdrawal mindset that some Christian traditions have taken where it's like, well, hell know, hell-in-hand basket, let's just remove ourselves and pray and wait for Jesus to come and destroy it all.

Yeah. And so I don't think the biblical story allows you to be naive enough to embrace moral progress and just to think we're gonna work it all out. At the same time, it's really as calling us to be engaged in the human project and not remove ourselves from it. But not in a, also not in a naive way. The God really cares for humans and he's for his world. And the story of the Bible doesn't end with us somewhere else. It ends up with us in a transformed version of here doing what we're supposed to be doing, which is and when Jesus talks about the kingdom of God, let me tie this back to the kingdom of God.

Yeah, sure. So if the kingdom of God is the reality, the in which God is raining, right? We kind of talked about, yeah, kingdom can be like the reality of where people are living as a community together under the reign of God. Under the reign of God, the teachings of Jesus. So being an image of God or being a true human as Paul puts it,

and living in God's kingdom is living by the teachings of Jesus. Yeah, I think through the sermon on the mount. Yeah, he's talking about how you deal with conflict, how you treat people you don't like, about lying and truth-telling, sexual integrity, anger and forgiveness. So he's not, he's just talking about how we live

on a day-to-day basis. And again, we're back down to the very earthy, it feels mundane. Just that stuff humans have to do every day as we garden and do business and live in our neighborhoods together. But in the vision of Genesis 1, that's what we're here for, is to make more of ourselves and to make more

life and to make it flourish and make neighborhoods and families. That's why the renewal of the image for Paul is about ethical renewal. So we're going forward now to this idea of the renewal of the image, but in Colossians 2 Paul talks about Jesus as the son is the image of the invisible God. Jesus is the image of the invisible God. So Jesus is the most true representation of God. We are all representations of God, all humans are. But there's something unique about Jesus that makes him the most true, accurate representation. And Paul links that in Colossians 2 to Jesus' authority. That he, in him, all things are created, things in heaven. He's before all things.

He has supremacy overall. So again Paul thinks the image of God ruling raining, right, authority. So, so if being the image of God is connected to authority and raining and ruling, Jesus is the image, the perfect image, then Jesus must be the one who really does rule over creation. Kingdom of God. This is how image is linked to Kingdom of God. Yep. So Jesus himself, we know he read and reflected on Genesis 1 and 2 a lot, but he never

used or picked up on the image of God the way that Paul does. So likely what Paul's doing is he's furthering reflection that he picked up from Jesus and is now kind of caring ball further down the field. So again think of the way that Paul talks about if you follow Jesus, you trust him and follow him, all of a sudden what's true of Jesus is now becoming true of you So you died with him To evil and sin and then you're raised with him and then so Paul will say things like yeah, you know You've been raised with Jesus and you sit at the right hand of God That's very explicit royal

Language so you rule now with Jesus Jesus is the image so he and now That's very explicit royal language. So you rule now with Jesus. Jesus is the image. So he and now you're the image. And then when he talks about the image being renewed in us, he's talking about you've taken off your old self, sexual immorality, lust, greed, anger, rage, gossip, and you're putting on truth-telling, love, forgiveness, compassion, that kind of thing. Or the fruit of the Spirit. Genesis 2, the divine breath, the Spirit puts in you goodness, patient, you know, that kind of thing.

Which is 2, is it 2 ways of saying the same thing? Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's Genesis 1 and Genesis 2. Genesis 1 being the image. Put on, take off and put on. Yeah, take off your old humanity and put on this new humanity that you find in Jesus and that God wants to turn you into. And then that... So remake your image in a way. Yeah. And then Paul will also draw in the language of Genesis 2 to say Let the spirit grow fruit in you which is kind of mental. Yeah, which has been is coming a fresh way Yep is recreating it's recreating you and that can bear fruit bears fruit which is the

bears fruit which is the image of God. We're making God's image, we're putting this garden and in the garden there's a tree called the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and God says, don't eat of this tree or on the day you eat of it you'll die. And then there's a snake there who says, no, actually you eat it. You'll like it. In the snake and the tree story, there's an irony that reflects back to Genesis 1 where the snake says a different story about the tree, you won't die and says you'll actually become like God. You as the reader are, no, that the humans are like God.

They're the image of God. So the snake is just. And so the snake is, yeah, it's planting these seeds of doubt and distrust in God's generosity. And somehow there's something that God's holding out on me that I can have that will actually make me more of what I should be. More the image. I guess what I'm thinking is like, let's say I'm the king of Milab. Go back to that.

And I see myself as the embodiment of God. How would I rebel against that? What would my rebellion look like? Well, if you're the embodiment of the God, you'd define good and evil. I'd define good and evil. So this is a different kind of embodiment where I'm not actually the God.

I'm a representation, but I don't actually call the shots. I just have authority on his behalf. So that's, I mean, there's a, I think it's really important. If you're an image of the God, it does mean, yeah, you're not God. You're an image of the God. Well, but not if I'm King of Moab. I'm the image of the God and I am God. Yeah. that's great. That's a good point. I've never played out that distinction, but it is it is one. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I'm thinking this is really obscure. If you've ever found your way into the oracles of the prophets against the foreign kings, you know, and Jeremiah, or Ezekiel, or Isaiah. So Isaiah will start ranting against the king of Babylon

or something, and they'll often use the language of you've turned yourself into a god. And you think that your authority is to the king. Yeah, so he's saying to the king of Babylon, you think you're good. I've ascended to the cloud. So he plays a little scenario where you're the king of Babylon, here's what you said to yourself. I ascend to the clouds, make my throne in heaven, and take over the world.

And then he goes on to criticize these kings for violence and injustice and killing innocent people. So the point is they've deified themselves so that they can redefine evil as good, because it serves their interests. And yeah, so that's an area where it's like you've overstepped your bounds as an image of God and you have defined good and evil for yourself instead of humbling yourself before. So we're back to the meaning of the tree. So all of us in ancient Near Eastern thought is being the image of God connected to the ability to define good and evil. Because in the biblical account,

you're separated, you're created in an image, but no, you can't define good and evil yourself. But the king of Babylon, because he's the image of God, he can define good and evil himself. Yeah, well, that's interesting. I mean, you do's the image of God he can define good and evil himself. Yeah, well that's interesting I mean, you do get the sense the point of Genesis 1 is God giving humans an enormous Responsibility right to just go for it but um which would you would imagine they would have to make a distinction between good and evil?

Yeah, yeah, that's right But the tree in that story is representing, but there is something about the knowledge of discerning good and evil that we have to... We have to give up. We have to rely on as coming from outside ourselves, the tree. It's something I trust God for, and it's a boundary I can overstep and seize for myself, in which case something's gone wrong. And the snake says, oh yeah, you can be even more like God.

Because God does that, he's holding out on you. You can do that for yourself. And that's what the king of Babylon does. That's right. I mean, right? Yeah. That would be pretty enticing to see this guy who goes, like, nope, this is good, and that's evil. And he makes that decision, like, I want to be that guy.

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I mean, history tells the story of what happens when humans read, we do it all the time. So is there something that the Genesis account is trying to tease out, which is yes, you are the image of God, but don't take it too far. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Like, there's while you are reflecting God's authority, not in the way that the king of Babylon does it. Sure. He defines good and evil himself. You have my authority and you have, you have this responsibility,

but you still need to rely on me ultimately for the definition of what is truly good and what is truly evil. Yeah, it's a good summary. Would that be kind of, I'm trying to imagine, I'm just trying to get my head inside someone reading this, who is from that time. And so I'm reading it. And at first I'm blown away. Oh, I'm the image of God.

That's incredible. And then I might even go as far as say, gosh, that means I get to do whatever I want. Because the kings who are the image of God, they do whatever they want. They build whatever they want. They build whatever they want. They have sex with whoever they want. They just do whatever they want. So all of a sudden you can go that far and you can start thinking like, I can define good and evil.

And then you get to Genesis 3 and then the story takes a turn and there's this tree that represents that type of power and you're not allowed to eat it. And now you're like, oh, wait a second, I guess it doesn't mean, so I'm the image of God, but it doesn't go that far. In fact, God doesn't want me to do that. That's dangerous, that's gonna kill me.

And then you have this character, the snake saying, no, no, no, no, no, you actually do want that. And I'm gonna think into myself, yeah, you're right. I do want that. And I'm wrestling with that. Is that a fair kind of journey? Yeah, I yeah, I think that's a that's a great waves Summarizing the story how the image connects to good and evil and the snake yeah, and so it's doubly tragic because it's sort of like, and as readers of the story,

what's funny is the story makes you, it's like you're analyzing other people going through this struggle as if you don't go through it yourself. Well, what's interesting is when I do think of someone else going through that struggle, it makes more sense, and then you can then realize. But that is my struggle. Like, whoa, this is. And I ultimately want to be able to decide, I want to build a life. You know, it's funny, I remember thinking like growing up, I knew certain things were wrong, like looking at pornography or something.

And I would want to believe that, yeah, that's wrong for everyone else, but it doesn't have to be wrong for me. Right, right, right. Like it's gonna be okay for me. Yes. And that's what I wanna believe. Like somehow I can define that on my own terms.

Yeah, and I think it's important the way a Genesis 3 through 11 plays it out, that this happens on a personal level, but it's just as, if not more destructive, when it starts to happen on a corporate level, like the city of Cane, where you have all of a sudden a laymech, where you have a city where it's actually a good thing to celebrate murdering someone for offending your honor. Because you can. Because you can.

And so it's a depiction of a whole human culture that begins to turn something evil into something good and honorable. And you don't need to look that far back in human history. I just look at the 20th century. Let's eliminate millions of human beings in the name of creating a certain type of society. That's a good thing. So I think so the biblical story is wanting to both personalize it but also see how what a nightmare this can become when humans redefine good. So maybe another way to say this is being in the image of God is a very

important and powerful thing to have been created and the danger inherent in it is the ability to seize the opportunity to find good and evil ourselves which will almost always get to a place where we're taking something that's evil and we're trying to make it look good. And that is really destructive for our societies. And it's despite our best intentions. Yeah, we're not doing it on purpose because we wanted to be more scary about it on a corporate level. It's like addiction. This is actually good for me.

Yeah. But actually. Did Lehmick think this is good for me to kill these, he thought that he's sung a song about it. Yeah. To his small, why is he was like showing off? I killed this guy. Yeah.

Yeah, name any of the great atrocities of the 20th century. Curious what, what we'd look back in a hundred years and be like, yeah, look at what we were doing that was so evil. Yeah, exactly But we said it was good. But we yeah, or we didn't even think about it And we didn't even think about it. Yeah, it's what our grandkids are gonna say about us. Yeah, that we say about our grandparents Right Yeah, but that's just it's the human condition, we're made in God's image and then because we ate of the tree of the knowledge, good and evil we screwed everything up.

Okay, so that's a big deal to me to get this one right, because it's so not helpful. Of like, everything was perfect. Yeah. Then we ruined it all, so God's trying to make it perfect again. Okay. As opposed to, the potential was for things, it was great and could have gotten a lot better,

but we made it bad instead of better. And God wants to change us so that we can finally do what we are originally called to do. Which is to work with him to make it great, or to make it awesome. Yeah, so that's a different type of story. From good to great. That is a different kind of story. That's the biblical story. I don't know. It is massive and are you sure that's correct? It's just three survival. Yeah, I didn't make it any of this up.

I just read people who are smarter than I thought. Yeah, so, but the play devil's advocate, he makes everything good. He doesn't make everything like okay, or make everything like, very adequate. No, it's not just good, it's very good. It's very good, awesome. But he doesn't make everything like okay, or make everything like, very adequate. Yeah, it's not just good, it's very good. It's very good, awesome. But he doesn't make everything perfect. Yeah, whatever we mean by that,

that's his thing in the Christian imagination. There were still parasites and still. Yeah, all that stuff, the mosquitoes must be a result of the vines and they're still. Yeah, so when you get that perfect story, then it's like anything that I don't like in God's in the world, that must be a result of sin, that whole thing. And so here we get into really more interesting conversation about evil and earthquakes and disease and the often

gets pinned on the result of the fall. So I was just watching. Would it take tonic plates not exist before the fall. I mean, uh, yeah. I think God would just cool the earth. Yes. And this is where Joe, wait, this is where Joe, that's what I'm going to bring up. Joe, yeah, because we were just watching. He was in Leviathan. Leviathan is in Genesis one, playing around in the water. He's there. The sea monster. The sea monster is in the water in Genesis one. It gets translated as, um,

The sea monster is in the water in Genesis 1 it gets translated as Oh, and I be no a new American standard Genesis 1 verse 21 God created the great sea monsters. Yeah So in Job the Leviathan yes God uses as an example to Job to say hey look I Created this beast. It's a part of the very good world. It's a part of the good world that I created, but it's gnarly. And it will kill you without a second thought.

Yeah, an eyelid. Because this beast, this thing was known to live out in the ocean and just destroy boats and whatever. And so God points to it and says, this is good. It's part of my good creation. Don't mess with it because it'll mess with you. Yeah. So from that perspective and job, do we get that anywhere else? Because that's a good rebuttal. But is there, I mean, is that the only one? Well, maybe it was a friendly seam monster. Yeah. You're a tame. the only one. Because maybe it was a friendly sea monster. Yeah, you're tame. Well, or I would just turn it upside down and you don't see the claim of perfection

meaning no hardship or suffering being made in Genesis one. It doesn't really say either way. No. No, but if humans are going to be working in a garden, that's going to require some work. But wasn't the curse that it was work before? Wasn't it going to be work? The curse is that now that humans want to be God and define good and evil for themselves,

how humans operate and build their families and neighborhoods and societies is going to be fraught with more conflict and difficulty than it could have been. It wasn't saying that everything was hunky-dory. That's right. And now it sucks. That's the curse. Yeah, I think the point of Genesis 1 and 2 is the stage is set. There's so much potential.

Man, this thing could really go somewhere if humans trust God and don't seize the opportunity to define good and evil for themselves. And then, of course, they do. And then you read that story and you're like, I'm going to have to be a skeptic here a little bit. I want to pursue this further with you because I mean, you're just, yeah. That's a big paradigm shift.

Yeah. And your point so far is just, well, it doesn't, it's kinda, it doesn't say it's kind of agnostic and it doesn't say things are perfect. Well, what are you looking for the story to say to fit your idea of perfect? Does it mean nobody? What's absent in a perfect world that you could fit into Genesis one? What's absent in a perfect world? What's not a part of existence, human existence? He's asking you to substantiate your skepticism.

human existence. He's asking you to substantiate your skepticism. Well, but obviously my skepticism is born out of the paradigm that's been drilled into my brain since I was... Yeah, but what's perfect about God bringing order, setting creatures over them, is images, and making, in saying, go do more of what I just did and gave to you, go do more of that. Sure. So how's that perfect? Well, the repetition of the I just did and gave to you go do more of that. Sure. So how's that perfect? Well the repetition of the word good and then very good. Sure. But I guess that's not, that doesn't mean perfect.

Yeah. It's good. But it's, in both Hebrew and in Greek the words perfect mean completed. Whole. Whole or complete. Having met, having fulfilled their purpose. Yeah. Having fulfilled it.

And that's the very opposite of what just one, too, is just beginning their purpose. It's purpose unrealized. So it's the beginning of the journey to some sort of wholeness. Correct. Which is there an assumption that you will get there? Of course. What would, what would be the point of starting something that has the capability of becoming what you want

and if you can get there, then there must be a state of perfection. My head hurts. I mean, where you're going is the super lapsarian, did God ordain the fall so that he could bind himself to the world through the incarnation to perfect it. No, I'm just going if there is a state of perfection, which the world is heading to completion, then why is it out of bounds to say that's how God started it?

He started it and then then we ruined that and then then we ruined that and now the now Yeah, I don't know the biblical words for perfection mean complete and There's no I mean everything in the very nature of the plot line is that it's God setting up something with potential to be completed. And then the people who gave the task to join them in completing take it their own direct. So in Revelation 22 when the humans are reigning, is that in a completed sense or in a sense where we're still well that's what's beautiful about it is that it's so now you have humans who are

who because of the incarnation are so joined and brought into God's own inner life and loves are so joined and brought into God's own inner life and love. And then when that happens, then now we can get the story back on track and humans will do what they didn't do. So we don't end in a state of perfection in relation to it? Well, I guess so in that sense, perfection is a state where things are a whole in the way that they're intended to be. Because there's nothing ending in Genesis in Revelation 22.

So perfection's like the last battle. In... Excuse me. Yeah, the Chronicles of Narnia, where it's further up and further in, and they're just, they're going forever. But that's... So perfection doesn't mean completion of a story.

It means wholeness of a purpose. So you're saying to put this construct of perfection, but by which we mean nothing ever goes wrong, that onto Genesis, one to is not what that story had. I think we're imposing a whole bunch of things on to the story that if you didn't have that assumption you would never get those out of that story. But the humans wouldn't have died. There's no death.

Well, it doesn't say that either. It just says that there is the opportunity for them to not die if they obeyed God. Really? Yeah, if the tree of life is below in my Sunday school brain right now. So there's two trees, the tree of life, then the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the day that you eat of it you will die. They eat of it and they are banished from the garden because God says, if they now take from the tree of life and live forever, bad news.

So the tree of life allowed them to live forever? So it's the idea that immortality is not inherent in human existence, that it's a gift. And that if humans had stayed in a relationship of trust, they would have had access to the gift of eternal life. But that gift is lost when the humans rebel. So again, it's not perfect, it's potential to be really good. So there was a potential for living into the human project in a complete way. It was, our service was good in that sense. It was good in that there was potential to live life eternal. Mm-hmm. Yeah, which is life in the presence of God? Is it, or is it never dying?

Yeah, exactly. I mean those two are the same. Saying, that's like in John 17 where Jesus says, and this is eternal life that they might know the Father. So, uh, it's the same thing. says, and this is eternal life that they might know the father. So it's the same thing. I mean, the tree of life is this narrative image of I'm get receiving life from a source outside myself that transcends my biological capabilities. Which will extend my life, but it's not disconnected from being in God's presence. It's directly connected.

It's directly connected. Yeah. I mean, this is why everything, the garden, it's connected to temple and holiness and purity, why purity is associated with life, impurity is associated with death. So there was all this together. In the story, there's this sense that there was a tree that provided eternal life, that it provided, and by that we're saying the ability

to live in God's presence forever. And that was lost because if we had access to that, while also eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, things would be really, really bad. Yeah, or yeah, in God's words in the story, behold, the man has become like one of us. They're all, again, humans are already made in the image of God, but then now they have aspired to become like us in a way that is not good, knowing good and evil. Now, he might stretch out his hand and also take from the tree of life and eat and live forever. So he's cut off from

the tree which is access to God's presence and the garden and so on. So what's the significance of this? Like what's the story saying? It's saying that. Yeah, what? Yeah. You know, actually, remember in that Peter teal and Entie Wright conversation, Remember in that Peter teal and anti-right conversation? They had a discussion about this in mortality. Yeah. And anti-right mentioned, the first place it's appeared is an ancient Greek myth of somebody who's cursed with living forever. Oh right.

But they still age. They got the gift of eternal life, but they forgot to ask for the gift of eternal youth. Yeah. And they just get older and they get better. So you just age eternally. Yeah, totally. And of eternal use. Yeah. And they just get older and way to the eternal. So you just ate eternally. And your back hurts more and more and more until you wish you were dead.

Yeah. So eating of the tree of life while also eating of the tree of an old is going to evil is actually the closest thing that we have in the Bible to eternal conscious torment. To hell. To hell. That's correct. Yeah.

It's a good way of putting it. It's I want to be God and I want to be God forever. Which is not going to go well. It's not going to go well. And not just because God's offended and it's like human history has borne out the fact that we are really poor gods. And again, that's why this isn't just about a path, the story is at the same time about all of us every day as it is about humans going all the way back to, as far back as humans go, because I, on a regular basis,

attempted to define something that's evil as good, because it's convenient for me to do that. The renewal of the image, it's tied to a conception of the story, a biblical story, that it doesn't begin with perfection, and then we ruined it. It begins with all of the potential for something that's very good to become what God wanted it to be, but he gave us a significant say in the matter of how the story would go. And we made our choice. And we make a choice every day. And that's why the world is the way that it is. But God is for humans and he's for his world.

And so he personally bound world. And so he personally bound his own self to this world in the image of God that is Jesus. And then humans can find their new humanity restored according to the true image of God by binding themselves to Jesus and letting Jesus restore the image within us so that when the kingdom of God is fully realized and the new creation, the story can go where God wanted it to go. Thanks again for listening to the Bible Project Podcast. The next episode will be the third and final part of this conversation on the image of God, so we'll put a bow on it, try to wrap that up. Also coming up on this podcast, we're going to continue talking about themes of the Bible, books of the Bible like we've been doing,

but we're also gonna start adding some stories of friends of ours that we meet along the way, and Tim and I will discuss those stories as well. I hope you like those podcast episodes. They'll be coming up. Hey, we make videos. We put them up on YouTube. They're for free.

They explain biblical books and biblical themes, and we'll also do more series along the way. You can find them at youtube.com slash the Bible Project. You can also find out more about this nonprofit, what we're up to at join thebiboproject.com And we're on Facebook, Facebook.com slash join the Bible Project and Twitter at join Bible Project. Thanks guys, see you next time. Now on, no regret lifts my head

I try my best in a touch, little one, a touch, little ones in my head. Thank you.