BibleProject - In the Beginning with Lady Wisdom – Proverbs 8

Episode Date: May 10, 2021

Who was at the beginning of the cosmos with God? God’s Spirit? God’s word? Or Lady Wisdom? Rich with creation narrative ties, the book of Proverbs contains important insights for how we understand God’s relationship to his creation and who Jesus is. Join Tim, Jon, and Carissa as they explore Proverbs 8.View full show notes from this episode →Timestamps Part one (0:00-8:30)Part two (8:30-21:00)Part three (21:00-36:00)Part four (36:00-52:00)Part five (52:00-end)Referenced ResourcesInterested in more? Check out Tim’s library here.Michael V. Fox, Proverbs 1-9Show Music “Defender (Instrumental)” by TENTS“Euk's First Race” by David Gummel“Scream Pilots” by Moby“Drug Police” by Moby“Shot in the Back of the Head” by MobyShow produced by Dan Gummel, Zack McKinley, and Cooper Peltz. Show notes by Lindsey Ponder. 

Hey, this is Cooper at Bible Project. I produce the podcast in Classroom. We've been exploring a theme called the City, and it's a pretty big theme. So we decided to do two separate Q and R episodes about it. We're currently taking questions for the second Q and R and we'd love to hear from you. Just record your question by July 21st

and send it to us at infoatbiboproject.com. Let us know your name and where you're from, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds and please transcribe your question when you email it in, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds, and please transcribe your question when you email it in. That's a huge help to our team. We're excited to hear from you. Here's the episode.

Hey, this is John at Bible Project. And on today's episode, I'm joined by Dr. Temecki and Dr. Chris Aquinn, and we're going to look at Proverbs 8. The first nine chapters of the book of Proverbs contain nine speeches. And in these speeches, we meet four characters. There are these contrasting pairs of couples, male and female. It's like a choose your own adventure

from the Eden story. Dear reader, who's called my son, you could listen to Adam and Eve, the redeemed version, who are the royal father and lady wisdom, and that leads to life. Or you can listen to the corrupted Adam and Eve, the wicked man and lady Folly,

and that leads to death. And it just for you, the reader, then it's like you are back in the garden sitting in front of the trees, and you have these voices who are vying for your attention. and that's the drama of these poems. These four characters are the foolish woman, contrasted with Lady Wisdom, the wicked man contrasted with the royal king. In today's episode we're gonna look at a

speech by Lady Wisdom known as Proverbs chapter 8. We learn about who she is, what she values and what she came from. So there's four moments. Yahweh brought me forth, this is in verse 22, then verse 23, I was formed, verse 24 and 25 both use the same word, I was birthed. It's the word I underwent, I was the product of labor pains. It's the verb for to experience labor pains, it as given birth. So she emerges from God's own being. She is an expression of God's own self going out into the world precisely when God is carving the cosmos. It's actually this particular passage that held the interest of many in the early church

we're trying to figure out who Jesus was. In fact, it's precisely this paragraph that was won among a number of key biblical texts that was being debated at the Council of Nicaea. When Athanasius and Arius were having this debate on was Jesus the first of all of God's created beings or is Jesus an eternal divine beings of part of God's created beings, or is Jesus an eternal divine being who's a part of God's own identity. And areas appealed to this very paragraph to say that the pre-incarnat Messiah was the first of God's creations

because he's God's divine wisdom. So this is a charged question in many ways. That's all ahead on today's episode. Thanks for joining us. Here we go. today's episode. Thanks for joining us. Here we go. Hello friends. We get to talk about the Bible as usual. And with us today is Tim McE. Hi Tim. How you doing? Hey John. I'm great. And Chris Aquin. Hi Chris.

Hey. And we're working on this series, which is part of this larger what we're calling the visual commentary series. And we've been working through different parts of the Bible that are connected to the theme of creation. So we did Genesis 1, we did Psalm 8, and now we are looking at Proverbs 8, which is a really cool reflection on creation from the perspective of Lady Wisdom. And so Tim's gonna walk us through your notes, right? Yep, I'm gonna play tour guide through Proverbs 8. I don't know, May or may not be familiar.

You know, when I was a new follower of Jesus, all I knew about Proverbs were like the little two line sayings. Yeah, for sure, those catchy sayings. And then, you know, maybe after I read it a time or two, you knew it began with the speeches of the father that are like, you know, began with the speeches of the father that are like, you know, these calls to be wise and learn wisdom and don't be stupid and that kind of stuff.

So, I guess it probably really wasn't until I had started taking a class in biblical literature or on Old Testament theology. The prominence of this figure of Lady Wisdom really became clear to me, but she's a major character in the opening chapters of Proverbs. Actually, the poems connected to Lady Wisdom and Proverbs 8 is the kind of climactic speech of this figure in opening chapters of Proverbs. And this chapter is saturated in both creation,

language and hyperlinks back to Genesis 1, but also to all kinds of other things that are fascinating. And this chapter was a major resource for the apostles too, when they were trying to use scriptural language and categories to talk about who Jesus was as both human and like more than human, but actually like the God of Israel come among them. And so Proverbs 8 ends up having this huge influence in the Gospel of John, in the letter to the Hebrews, in Paul's letters. So, pays off to put in some time with Proverbs 8, the kind of the whole Bible starts to unlock in pretty cool ways. Yeah, it's so cool that there's this very prominent woman here speaking, and this is a really long speech. It's not just a short part. It's long and she's kind of feels like a mystical woman. I love how our artists, when they worked on this video,

created the universe in her flowing hair. It's so appropriate because it's like she's woven into the very fabric of creation. She's like this beautiful mystical wise lady. It's a very cool figure. Yeah, she's an epic figure and you're right. She kind of takes the stage alongside a number of other prominent female characters. I think she probably takes the cake in terms of the most cosmic and you know, she's, as we're gonna see, she's a literary personification

of God's own cosmic wisdom. So in that sense, the lady wisdom is in a category all her own in the Hebrew Bible. There's nothing else quite like her. Save the portrait of God himself. Him or herself. I mean, this is where our language starts to break the categories, right? When we did the God series, and we started talking about these characters who really merge this idea between, is this Yahweh or is this another character? She was one that we looked at, but alongside her were the angel of the Lord. It seems like there's a little bit of a category of...

The word, speech of God. Yeah, the speech of God, the wisdom of God, the spirit, and then also the angel, or the messenger of Yahweh. I mean, once we looked at... I remember when you guys were talking about how the word and the wisdom and the characteristics of God are both distinct from God. They're not God himself, but they're inherently united with his person. Yeah, the Hebrew Bible has actually a sophisticated way of talking about the nature and being of

the one God, the story of the Bible is all about, and these attributes of God, they don't summarize the totality of the divine essence in all of its infinite variety, but it is genuinely a manifestation, a character trait of the divine. And so, we kind of lack categories for it, but these personified attributes of God. They are divine, and yet humans can experience them as their own entity, distinct from but also one with God. And tired for me as a follower of Jesus not to use the language given to me eventually by the apostles and then the NIC and Creed and Trinitarian categories, because that's where it all went. But the seedbed of this language was right here in the book of Proverbs.

So actually, we're already getting to like the deep end of the pool. By the time you get to the end of Proverbs, they hit. So let's first just kind of back up. Let's spend a few minutes. I'd like to just make some observations about actually just the macro literary design of Proverbs that has some illuminating things for us to see

about this character of Lady Wisdom set. The Book of Proverbs in the Hebrew Bible, how that all fits together. But you guys are gonna have to force me not to take like a whole half hour to do just that. But I think it's just helpful for thinking about who Lady Wisdom is and why she sits alongside the voice of a royal father. And those two voices that dominate the landscape of the early part of Proverbs will get some macro setting, then we'll dive in and read Proverbs 8 together.

Does that sound good, you guys? Sounds great. We'll get some macro setting, then we'll dive in and read Prophibsate together. Does that sound good, you guys? Sounds great. Sweet. 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc

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1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc All right.

When we think about the whole book of Proverbs, different scholars have tried to discern the organizational structures at work in the book as a whole. It's actually fairly debated mostly because the literary structure of the book as a whole really depends on what you're looking for or what you think is most prominent. So I am most persuaded that the mention of Solomon in the book is kind of the key macro structural feature. And when you look at the mention of Solomon, you find his name appears at three prominent points that I think are the organizational kind of hinges for the three big blocks of it. So that's the speeches of chapters one through nine. It's all these long speeches. There

aren't any little two-line little clever proverbs in the first chunk, which is chapters one through nine. It's all these long speeches. There aren't any little two line, little clever proverbs in the first chunk, which is chapters one through nine. And that chunk begins, the Proverbs of Solomon, the son of David, the king of Israel. The next big chunk starts in chapter 10, and it repeats the heading again. It says, the Proverbs of Solomon. And you don't get that header anywhere else before 10, the Proverbs of Solomon. No, ha, ha. So in other words, the book opens with a line, the Proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel, and then what you get aren't really Proverbs, what you get are speeches, long poetic speeches, that explain what the book has a whole is for, and kind of set it within the Hebrew Bible.

Then in chapter 10, you get this little reboot. Okay, now the Proverbs of Solomon, and then you get the hundreds and hundreds of the little two-night Proverbs. And so you could argue that this is just the main division, and then the rest of the book, 10 through 31, is just one big block of Proverbs. Except you get to chapter 25, verse one,

and you get another one of these little headings that it says, these are more proverbs of Solomon that the men of Hezekiah, the king of Judah, collected. So Hezekiah is a couple centuries after Solomon, still the same royal line of David. So Hezekiah is like great great great great great great great great great grandson of Solomon and David. And we're told that in Hezekiah's day there was another recollection where a new collection made of Pro grandson of Solomon and David. And we're told that in Hezekiah's day, there was another recollection where a new collection made of Proverbs of Solomon, and that begins the third main section of the book. What's fascinating is that more Proverbs of Solomon goes through 25 to 29,

and then at the end of the book, Chapter 30 and Chapter 31 are collections of Proverbs and speeches from two other people that are not Solomon, explicitly says it. So Chapter 30 is called the words of augur. Nobody knows who he is, but it's a great name. It's an intense name. And then Chapter 31 is the words of King Lemuel, the wisdom that his mother taught him, and that's the last chapter.

So you have these three big blocks, and in the third block, you get Proverbs of Solomon, and then the wisdom of two other figures. It's almost like the wisdom of Solomon is being carried on by later people. But yeah, or you could say that what's going on in these two words of augur and the words of King Lemuel, both of them are testaments of wisdom that seems to stand outside of the line of Israel's kings because Al-Ghura is a king, but he's not an Israelite king that's ever mentioned anywhere in that Old Testament. It kind of affirms something

that we're gonna see Lady Wisdom says all the way back and what we're gonna see is anywhere you see a king or a ruler being wise, living wisely and leading with wisdom and justice, they are even if they don't know it, living by divine wisdom. And so as as if that thing that Lady Wisdom said back in chapter 8 gets a whole demonstration in the final chapter of the book. Final chapter of the book also has the epic poem about the wise woman,

the Proverbs 31 woman, which I know has a whole history attached to it, depending on what Christian tradition you're part of. But that wise woman is an embodiment of all the vocabulary and ideas of Lady Wisdom throughout the speeches in chapters 1 through 9. So if there's if Lady Wisdom is both a bookend for the speeches at the beginning and the speeches that end the book. So there's a lot more to do here, but it's just to say the whole book actually has a really cohesive organization. And you can kind of see the main themes emerging here. We have men and women who are living by the wisdom of God. They become these like supercharged, superhuman versions of themselves,

because they're tapping into God's own divine wisdom, which has both male and female aspects to it, with Solomon and Lady Wisdom in the first big block, and then Lemuel and the wise woman that he sings about in his palm. So, I've just always thought this is so cool. It just has a different set of emphases and a different way of talking about it than anywhere else in the Hebrew Bible. It's super cool. Yeah, do you think that the attributes from Lady Wisdom and from the Father passing on wisdom to the Son? Do you think that the Father and Lady Wisdom are meant to represent a masculine and feminine depiction of God in the book or masculine and feminine wisdom? Do you think that's part of the role of having those two characters? Yes, but also even more specific. So John, this was the How to Read Wisdom Literature. Conversations that we had in the How to Read the Bible series. And for me,

my last, like, deep dive into the Books of Solomon, which is Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs, which we left out. No, we included that in the video for How to Read the Books of Solomon. Oh, the how to read. Yeah, we actually ended up not calling it how to read wisdom literature. We just called it how to read the books of Solomon because I had a big paradigm shift about the function of these books in the Hebrew Bible. Solomon is an Adam figure. If you look at the portrait of him, he's another one of these new humans who steps up to the plate to live by God's wisdom and bring the blessing of God to others. And he fails precisely because of his,

well, his own folly and greed for power. And then by listening to the voice of his non-his-relight wives, who seduce him into idolatry. And so right there, Solomon and his wives, they're an image of the Adam and Eve story of the fallen narrative in the garden, but with the volume up to 11. So you have the greedy, power-hungry man, and you have this portrait in kings of Solomon's seductive queen-like wives. And together, they become this portrait of

corrupted wisdom that leads to slavery and death and ultimately exile. And so I think Proverbs is picking up on these archetypes. Yeah, because we haven't said this yet, but in those nine speeches at the beginning of Proverbs, there's four main characters. There's four characters, that's right. So Lady Wisdom is one, but out of the nine speeches, four main characters, and one is the king that Chrisso was referencing,

and he's paired with Lady Wisdom, they're both. They both speak God's wisdom. Yeah. But then there's two counterpart characters. Yeah, that's right. It's like the Royal Father and Lady Wisdom are both mouthpieces for God's invitation to live by his wisdom. And Lady Wisdom is called in Proverbs 3, A Tree of Life.

And the Royal Father is offering wisdom that leads to length of days, eternal life. But they have these, what do you call them? Are they doppelgangers? Were they like, their counterparts? Intagonist, your counterparts. What's like, when you have like a story where it's clear characters, foils, because it's the...

The foil, yeah. Yeah, the foil. Do we use that word? Still. But they're mirror opposites of each other. So the opposite, in the first speech of the father in chapter one of Proverbs, he starts talking about somebody who's just called the wicked man, or the violent man. And he's the everything opposite of what the father is telling you.

And there's a speech that the wicked man makes, and he's like, come, my son, let's plunder the helpless, let's get rich and rob the poor and strip them of their clothes and we'll get plunder and booty and so on. It sounds like Solomon on the bad narratives, you know about him. And then you also meet a female opposite to Lady Wisdom who's called by a variety of names Lady Folly or the strange woman Lady Strange and she's constantly inviting the reader and the son to all of this, just like sensuality and illicit sex and adultery and illegitimate ways to get rich, basically. And so there are these contrasting pairs of couples, male and female each. Each of them are all, I think, it's like a choose your own adventure from the Eden

story. Dear reader, who's called my son, you could listen to Adam and Eve, the redeemed version, who are the royal father and lady wisdom, and that leads to life. Or you can listen to the corrupted Adam and Eve, the wicked man and lady Folly, and that leads to death. And it just for you, the reader, then it's like you are back in the garden

sitting in front of the trees, and you have these voices who are vying for your attention. And that's the drama of these palms in the opening of Proverbs. So I think Chris has put her finger on it in that you've got the father and Lady Wisdom, which are like a redeemed Adam and Eve, which are the image of God. And it's how God's wisdom is meant to be manifest in the world. And so in a way, yes, you've got this picture of what is God manifest in the world, both male and female as the image. And this is a cool depiction of that. Yeah, I thought it was really cool

that in the very beginning and the prologue, the audience is called, I mean, you've said this a couple times, but the audience is called the sun or the child and also young ones or youth. Yeah, so it's almost this liminal setting in life maybe symbolically because other places the audience is just called all people or all humans or the open the simple. So it's like all people are set in this setting of choice where they're discovering what's wise and what's foolish and the book is depicting these two ways and the wise father's saying,

hey, choose what's good, really what brings the most joy for you, which is Lady Wisdom. Sheree Hay is on our education team right now, is writing a blog about how Lady Wisdom's way doesn't take away joy. It brings ultimate joy. And that's what the father is trying to help the sun see which is all of us. Yeah, we could just spend up this whole conversation talking about this macro stuff. The character of my son, who's view the reader or in that position, is called, like you said, the son, the young one, but also our translations go different ways in rendering this word, it's the Hebrew word Petty,

which is the simple, minded one, but it means the one who hasn't learned anything yet. Yeah, it's related to the word open, patah, so like the one who's opened everything but committed to nothing. Yes, it just hit me one day, like, oh, this is Proverbs way of conceiving of Adam and Eve before the snake, the simple ones.

They haven't learned good evil yet. Yeah, that adolescents stage of Adam and Eve, how are they gonna gain their wisdom? That's right. How are you gonna gain your wisdom? The assumed backdrop through design patterns and all these hyperlinks. For all the sons of Adam and Eve,

you have your own garden test to undergo as you live your life and which set of voices will you listen to the ones that image God's wisdom and God's image is male and female on page one and so of course God's wisdom will have both a male and female portrayal in the book of Proverbs. It just makes sense that it would. There couldn't be otherwise really if you think about. And I just never thought about it this way, except the last couple of years, learning how design patterns work in the Hebrew Bible and all of a sudden, Lady Wisdom isn't just a solo act.

She's actually paired with the royal king. And together, you can learn to find wisdom from the both. 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1 %, 1 %, 1%, 1%, 1 %, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1 %, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1 So let's zoom in to Proverbs 1 through 9, because that's the setting for lady wisdom, speech, and Proverbs 1 through 8. So essentially, the royal father and lady wisdom, they're going to be speaking throughout the opening speeches, and the speeches in chapters one through nine are alone behold themselves organized in a group of three. And then within each of those big three sections, there's also threes within threes and so on. It's really remarkable and also predictable,

I think, for how biblical literature works. So there's three big speeches of Lady Wisdom once in each of these groups. The first one's in chapter one and she's standing at the gates of a city by the crossroads saying Everybody come to me and at the warning she's saying listen man the wicked man. It's gonna eat your lunch You're gonna die you're gonna be brought to poverty and just don't be stupid. Listen to me. That's her first speech And by the way the city that's all connected to the Eden idea too.

On a mountain, it's Jerusalem, which is the Eden become a city. You got it. If you listen to Lady Wisdom, you'll find your way back to Eden. In chapter three, the father gives a speech about Lady Wisdom, and he calls her a tree of life. Yeah. If you listen to wisdom, you'll grab on to the tree of life and have length of days. And it's a really like, you'll have healthy bones. Your bones will like grow fresh and new. That's awesome. I want that. You totally. I want that too. I especially want that right now in middle age.

So this portrait is emerging of like, man, lay wisdom. You got to get some lady wisdom in your life. And so the whole of the speeches build up to these competing voices of lady Folly and lady wisdom. Chapter 7 is this culminating speech of Lady Folly, and she wants to get you into bed with her, and she's going to ruin your life. And take you to the grave, actually. And then matching and contrasting Lady Folly's speech in Chapter 7 comes Lady wisdom's speech in Chapter 8. So there's even the narrative drama, even though it's not a narrative in literary form, there's a drama of the voices competing. And it all comes down to chapter seven, Lady Folly, chapter eight, Lady Wisdom, and then in chapter nine, there's a portrait of Lady Wisdom,

builds a house on a hill with seven pillars. She invites you to come to her table, and then you hear Lady Folly has a house with a feast, and she's inviting you to come, what you're gonna choose. And then the curtain closes, and you move on to chapter 10, and all the little two-line proverbs begin. So if you know how to discern that dramatic plot design, Proverbs 8 is the last major appeal of a lady wisdom.

That's the basic point. It's sort of like it's her final appeal. Imagine like a courtroom saying closing arguments. Yeah, that's it. It's really compelling too, especially in contrast with Lady Folly, who does things in secret and her pleasures are temporary. Yeah, the way of lady wisdom, when I read it,

I found it to be super refreshing, that transparency, the words being always true and dependable. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, she's a straight shooter. She doesn't mincer words, and she speaks with authority. And she calls out to everyone. She invites everyone in public. Okay, so that's the setting. Is that a fairly clear portrait? I think I'm being clear and trying to take a stir, but, maybe there's something that is not clear or should we dive into Prophecy? Yeah, let's do it. All right, I'd say let's just kind of read our way.

I'm starting on page 13 of the notes and maybe I don't know. I'll let you guys read back and forth different sections and we'll just kind of see what's interesting. Why don't I read the first part and then Chris' can be Lady Wisdom after that? Oh, that's true. Actually, the first part is the royal father kind of setting Lady Wisdom on the stage, versus one through three. Doesn't Wisdom cry out, and understanding raise her voice. At the head of high places, by the road, at the junction of roads, she stands.

By the side of gates at the entrance of the city, at the entrance of the doors, she shouts. This part is like we talked about. She's at that junction point. This is the test. Are you going to listen to her and go into the city? Or not? It's a really beautiful image. Yeah, it's like this crossroads where decisions are made. You said this earlier, I think, John Wright, that decisions are made at the gates of the city. Or did we talk about that? Oh, we didn't. Oh, okay.

That, like in the book of Ruth, you know, all the elders gather and they make decisions there, so she's up there helping people decide. Yeah, the point is that she's like a player among the leading voices of the city at the gates, and the gates is where everybody goes in and out. She's the poor authority. Yeah, totally.

City centers or city squares or pauses used to function this way, and every city it it's different now of course, but that's the idea. The assumption is there's a central place where everybody gathers the leaders gather and she's there. Given her speech and her speech begins, the first movement is versus four through eleven. This is what she says, to you men and that could be just, oh, people or something, right? So this is worth naming. The assumed in the narrative of the four voices, the good ones and the bad ones, and who they're addressing is a figure called the sun. It's as if Solomon is speaking to the line of David. So that's interesting because it is, in terms of the gender dynamics at work, because the seed of David and the sonship of David is going to come to include

males and females of Israel and the remnant and all nations. But I don't know, Chris, when you encounter this male gender dynamic that the audience is assumed male, I guess for every person is probably different. Yeah. How do you experience that? Well, yeah, I'm thinking about that now. So in context of this story, the characters are male and female, especially with Lady Folly and the young son being drawn into a woman's house. Those are characters that are male and female there. So I think, yeah, as I read, I probably picture the story with those male and female characters, but then there are truths that I would draw from that story for myself. But yeah, maybe just changing the word to people then doesn't do justice to the characters in the story, if that makes sense. Still, it is addressed in a sense to all humans, but it's being cast in the characters of this woman and sons or men.

Sons of human, in the next line, those are more inclusive term, all humanity, sons of human. Sons of Adam, sons of humanity. Okay, so here's what she says. We made it through one half of a verse. Okay, to you, men, I cry out. And my voice is to the sons of human, goalable ones, that's that word for open ones are simple. Understand shrewdness, and fools understand in your heart.

Listen, for I speak things that are right right and I open my mouth for upright things. For my mouth whispers truth and wickedness is detestable to my lips. All the words of my mouth are with righteousness. There is nothing twisted or crooked. All of them are right to the understanding one and upright to those who find knowledge. Take my instruction and not silver and knowledge more than choice pure gold. For wisdom is good more than pearls and nothing desirable can compare with her. Yeah, it's interesting how much speech is emphasized

here. Yes, yeah, that's right. There's so many lines about her speech being right upright, true, Yeah, that's right. There's so many lines about her speech being right, upright, true, not wicked, not twisted or crooked. I know I'd start to sound like a broken record about how all roads lead back to Genesis 1 through 3. But the focus of that narrative is about a dialogue between a man and a woman, and then this deceiver, the snake, and the whole debate is about who's telling the truth about the Word of God, whose words

are upright and whose words are crooked. And that's exactly the way she presents the drama. So she's like saying, listen, I'm not the crooked one. You've been hearing a crooked voice throughout these chapters, and that's not my voice. And look at the emphasis, my words are right, an upright and true and righteous. And that's who the goalable ones, if you don't know the difference between right and wrong, yet, I'm the place that you want to find wisdom. I think that emphasis on speech actually has its roots all the way back in the debate

about the wise words of God in Genesis 3. Tim, is this your translation? It is, yeah. What's the distinction between wisdom and understanding? These words, are they just pure synonyms or is there some sort of distinction we should be thinking about? Yeah, they all have different nuances. Man, just as a reference for anybody who wants to follow the rabbit trail, deeper, Michael

V. Fox, the biblical scholar, he wrote, I think, one of the most thorough commentaries on the book of Proverbs in the modern era published about 10 this years ago each. So in his anchor Bible commentary and he has a whole commentary just on Proverbs 1 through 9, but he has about 20 pages about the wisdom vocabulary, all of it. It's like short little word studies that are a page or two each on all the wisdom words in the Bible. It's worth its weight and gold. So insightful. So wisdom, we did this in our Proverbs video. It's not primarily an intellectual or mental-focused word, but it's about know-how, I think the English phrase that captures it best. It's practical applied wisdom. Practical social, like a social skill of righteousness, almost.

Yes, so remember the designers and craftsmen of the Tabernacle are called the filled with Hokma wisdom. When Solomon employs all of these goldsmiths to do the carving of all the gold stuff, he calls all who are Hokma of heart, wise of heart, skilled. So it's the kind of knowledge that you see them demonstrate it through their actions. They know their medium and they know the craft and you see they know how on display by how they act. Whereas understanding is focusing in on a mindset. You are able to comprehend and understand

what is the right thing to do or the best thing to do. And then Khok Ma wisdom is then you're actually making those choices to do it. Yeah, it seems like in the book of Proverbs, it's not IQ or just knowledge, but it's this effective knowledge that is also really connected to committedness to Yahweh in your heart,

like committedness and devotion to Yahweh. I'm even thinking of that relationship between the fear of Yahweh and wisdom. There's like a reciprocal relationship there. When you are devoted to Yahweh, you gain wisdom. When you gain wisdom, that helps you understand the fear of Yahweh or helps you know him more. Yeah, and even that knowing is the other Hebrew word, the word knowledge or knowing, which is the relational, reciprocal knowing and being known.

So we've got three words, wisdom in this paragraph, understanding, which is about discernment. We met called discernment, and then knowledge is about this reciprocal relational knowing. There's also instruction. Yeah, there's stuff that you don't know that you need to know. Let me explain it. Oh man, my nine year old son is in this phase right now where anytime you try to help him see that he's doing something that is not the right way of doing it, you know, and it's not gonna work out for him.

And is anything from Legos to Art Project to how he's making his toast or something? So I'll be like, oh buddy, you know, like you need to turn the little like toaster ever on this way, otherwise you're gonna burn your toast. And his response to me, I don't know where he got this. He'll just resist me and say, I know, I know. And I'll be like, well, buddy, I don't think you

actually do know because you turned like the toaster oven up to 10, you're gonna fry your toast. And he's like, I know that. But I don't think you do know. And it just becomes a loop. And then I just have to stop and walk away because he doesn't want to take construction. Anyway.

Therein lies, I think, an insight to all of us. Hahaha. But of your sake, just like humans, we don't want to think that we don't know something. It's hard for him. It is really hard to learn something new. It makes you feel there's that big fancy word disequilibrated, and it's just scary sometimes

to have a new piece of information. And so, yeah, it's tricky. I love these last two verses in the first part of the speech. She's comparing herself to riches, wealth. It makes sense, right? Because we all love wealth. But it seems like there's also a deeper design pattern here with how Solomon's relationship was gold.

Totally, totally, John, good call. Yeah, you're paying attention to the fact that Solomon, a major emphasis of his story, is the narrator talking constantly about how much gold he acquired. Yeah. And the stuff he makes out of gold that's totally unnecessary, like all the gold shields and so on. So he ended up preferring gold to wisdom.

I like that the idea of desire is brought in here too. It's not just saying choose wisdom because it's the right way. It's actually nothing desirable. Nothing we desire and wealth being one of those desirable things can compare with her. Yeah, it's hard to believe that, but I think that's what the point of the poem is

if we don't believe that we haven't fully met her or experienced her or her goodness. Yeah, this is also Genesis 3 vocabulary, the language of desire. A forbidden tree was desirable for gaining wisdom. That's Genesis 3, verse 6. Yeah, and then the very next verse, I can keep reading her speech,

but it uses the word shrewd, just like the snake was shrewd, but now she's using this shrewdness in a positive way for wisdom, I guess. To your point, it's about desire. In other words, to become wise in the fear of the Lord, in the world of your proverbs,

isn't just that you're strategic and you know how to make successful life decisions, including ethical ones, but it's also about the shaping of desire. That what you desire is actually the things that are good according to God's wisdom and that lead to life for you and others. And sometimes the right thing to do is not what you desire. And how do I come to desire it so that I can want the right thing anyway?

Yeah, and that that thing is actually ultimately more life giving and desirable in the long run. 1.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0%

2.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% Okay, yeah, I'll keep reading 12 through 16. Her speech continues. Great. I, wisdom, live with shrewdness, and I discovered knowledge of strategy. I like that translation, that's cool. The fear of Yahweh is hating evil, pride and arrogance and the evil path, and the twisted

mouth I hate. To me belongs counsel and planning. I am understanding. To me belongs power. Through me, kings reign, and rulers carved decrees that are just. Through me, princes rule, and nobles, all who judge with justice. Mm-hmm. I like the thing of this section as she's kind of like pulling out her TV.

Or she's like pulling out like... Here's people who work with me. Again, it's a way of increasing her appeal. Yeah, so her appeal so far was her speeches true or she's true. And then she's valuable, greater than pearls and gold. Well, when you see a king or ruler, like bringing order and justice to the land, yeah, they came and talked to me. They're actually using me. Whether or not they're going to acknowledge it or you didn't realize it, that was me.

Yeah, it's kind of like, I mean, John, like when you're in the advertising world and you had your company's landing page and you're like, we've worked with Apple and Nike and Intel and like, it's that, that's what she's saying. That's funny. Yeah. Let's talk about the shrewdness thing. That's really interesting. The snake in the garden was the crafty shrewd character,

but she's like, I'm the shrewd character. There's the, Jesus says, be innocent like, does shrewd character. There's the Jesus says, be innocent like does, shrewd, likes nakes. What is going on? I don't fully understand this idea of shrewdness and how it relates to wisdom. Yeah, the word is not weighted with moral value. In other words, here's a divine figure. God, right? God's own wisdom exercises shrewdness. It comes from the Hebrew root, a ram, and so here it's orma, in Genesis 3 it's audrum, but it's the same root word. Yeah, all kinds of figures can have orma or shrewdness.

I think it's essentially that you know how to read a situation and know what's the advantageous thing to do that will lead to the outcome you desire. In the Strengths finder that's called strategic. Yeah, strategic. Totally. Which could be good or bad, right? Depending on your character.

Yeah, and actually strategy is the word in the parallel poetic line. Shrewdness and strategy, which is the word mezzi-mote, and it's the word for you know how to have to plan that will lead to the desired outcome. Which actually Lady Folly or Lady Strange is also very strategic. It's interesting how both of these characters have these neutral ideas, like especially money, sex and power, and they can be used for evil

or they can be good and beautiful things, depending who's using them and what their character is. It's kind of back to that motif that you mentioned a few minutes ago, Chris, of shrewdness is a desirable skill to know how to size up a situation, make a plan that will work. The question is toward what end?

And it's that ultimate end that that will determine if your shrewdness leads to life or leads to death. And she is like, if you want real shrewdness, don't go with Lady Folly. Yeah. I've got the real stuff. And it makes sense that this is setting up this whole idea of kings and princes ruling because the amount of shrewdness you need

to be able to lead a whole group of people, a wisely or well, that the amount of planning and thinking and council and, yeah, it's intense. Yeah, it's interesting that she's calling all humanity, especially the simple, and also is empowering rulers and kings. That's a great observation. Are you kind of connecting their image of God from Genesis 1?

No, I was just thinking of the inclusiveness, but yeah, for sure that. In other words, a statement where you invite the poor and the rich to use divine wisdom is a worldview in which every person is built with the potential to become royal priests who rule creation with God as an image. Yeah, everyone has access to wisdom, which is actually exactly where she goes next. Yes, okay, so real quick here, just because there's an important little word that she uses for the first time here that's going to be key for later. When she talks about the kings,

reigning, and rulers, I translated it, carve decrees. Usually in most translations, it's who make decisions or issue decrees. The Hebrew word is khakak. It's a clearing your throat word on multiple fronts. khakak. But it's the actual word to like carve or etch out. And it's the standard Hebrew word used to refer to decrease, or when leaders make a decision and then make it public, it's called often a hook or a hookote. And it refers to the practice of like the 10 commandments, carving.

Yeah, carving a law or carving a decision into stone and then displaying it publicly. And so that carving is key because Yahweh himself is going to be shown to use this carving skill to bring justice and order later on in the poem. But right now it's just important to kind of note that's the metaphor being used here. Carving. Because when you carve a law, you're bringing order to a situation. Oh man, there's this corner by my house, where it's a corner that coming all four directions,

there's no stop sign from any direction. And every time I drive my bike through it, or drive through it, I'm always freaked out, because I've just seen it happen so many near accidents. It's chaos at my corner. And what we need to do is for someone to carve a decree to bring order to that corner. We need some strategy and some uprightness. Totally. So the carving metaphor is about bringing order out of chaos and the anyway.

You can see where this is going to be going into creation themes later on. So I seriously though, I need to write a petition. Anyway. Okay, okay, should we keep rocking? Okay, versus 17 through 21. She says, I love those who love me and those who seek me will find me. Wealth and honor are with me. Enduring abundance and righteousness. My fruit is good more than pure gold and my income more than gold, more than choice silver. I will walk in the path of righteousness in the middle of the roads of justice to give us substantial inheritance and I will fill up their storehouses. This section really matches that first part of this

speech of gaining understanding and that it's better than gold and it will lead to abundance. Yeah, it's a good example of how multiple paragraphs are like spiral and recover the same ground, but then take it a little further and develop it. So that she's more valuable than gold and pure gold. That's literally copy and pasted from the earlier movement. But this idea that you can eat lady wisdom. She grows fruit that you can eat. For sure, that's Eden image right there. She has righteousness and so on. She's amping it up now. She's not just saying, well, then honor her with me. She's saying, you can have it. I'll give you the goods if you follow my wisdom. And then seek and you will find that's such an important idea. Also an Eden image. The

whole thing where they hide and the gods looking for them. And so it becomes this inversion of God looking for people and finding them or people looking for God and finding or not finding him. I think it's all rooted in that little scene where God's looking for them and they hide and they come out. Anyway. That verse is cool though. I love those who love me, those who seek me will find me. There's some assurance there. It's not. When you seek wisdom, there's assurance that you will find her and that's pretty reassuring. All right. So this leads up to the climax of her appeal, which is a long three-part paragraph and versus 22 to 31. So Chris, I do ask the honors of reading it aloud. Yahweh brought me forth at the beginning of his way, earlier than his acts of old. In the remote past I was formed, from the beginning, from the earliest times of the land. When there were no deep waters, I was birthed.

When there were no springs, heavy with water. Before mountains were sunk deep, before the hills, I was birthed. Before he made the land and open fields and the first clumps of soil. When he established the skies an open fields and the first clumps of soil, when he established the skies I was there, when he carved a horizon on the face of the deep waters, when he made firm the clouds above, when he strengthened the springs of the deep water, when he set a carved boundary for the sea, so the waters would not cross his command, when he inscribed the foundations of the land. I was growing up beside him.

Or did you translate this differently later? It's very difficult word to interpret and translate. For some reason I thought you had, I was with him continually. Yes, so we'll talk about it. Okay, and I was daily an object of delight, celebrating before him the entire time, celebrating the inhabited world of the land, delighting in the sons of human.

So many rabbit holes here. Yeah, you know, right? There's a lot here. You can just feel, on a very simple level, you can feel the Genesis one language, and just the theme of creation that's just all packed in right here. Yeah, there is so much, but what's her main idea here? Well, think, if she appealed to the people she's worked with,

as establishing her credentials, kings and rulers use me, then this is one uping that, where she's saying, I was brought into existence for God's own self to use me, and work with me, and I was there before any king or ruler was carving just decrees. I was there with him when God was carving order out of chaos. So I think that's how it fits in in terms of her persuasion. Which makes this match that second part of the speech.

So at a macro level, we've got the first and third part of the speech matching in the second and the fourth part of the speech matching. It's a nice little symmetry. So I mean, man, what do you guys want to talk about? There's so many cool things. The birth imagery is pretty prominent. She's talking about how Yahweh gave birth to her,

brought her forth. Yeah, what's the deal? Krisa, have you started working on the birth imagery? Yeah, I did. I was writing a reflection for the Reflections podcast on metaphors, on metaphors. And so I was looking at the birth metaphor, but what I found was that birthing childbirth and then God being compared to a birthing mother had a

lot to do with both suffering and crisis but also transformation and bringing new life like that new creative life. For bigger context what you're saying is you've been doing a study on all the places where God's depicted as a mother giving birth. You're noticing these kind of themes in the different places that metaphor appears. Yeah, that birthing involves suffering. I mean, it's a difficult act, so there's labor involved. So God labors for people and for creation, but it brings forth new creation, which I think is probably the imagery being used here. The birthing imagery is like compared with creating. I mean, birthing and creating, we even use those things similarly today.

It's transformative, but I don't know. So now here, if God is birthing wisdom, so many things going on here. So there's four moments. Yahweh brought me forth. This is in verse 22. Then verse 23, I was formed. Verse 24 and 25 both use the same word. I was birthed. It's the word I underwent. I was the product of labor pains. It's the verb for to experience labor pains, giving birth. So she emerges from God's own being. She is in an expression of God's own self.

Going out into the world. Precisely when God is carving, it's that same word, carving the cosmos. And notice the three tiered cosmos here from Genesis 1. So you have the deep waters and God carves a line in verse 27 to separate the skies from the waters below. That's day two, separating the waters. And then in verse 29, he carves a line for the sea so that the dry land can be separated from the waters below, which is day three. So it's a poetic commentary on days two and three.

Oh, Genesis, which is cool. Using the carving vocabulary. Just what the kings were doing is what God was doing for the whole cosmos, carving order of chaos. Okay, so think with me here. In Genesis 1, when is there something emerging out of God's own being to go out into the void and participate in the ordering and the carving up of chaos? Yeah, it's his word and his spirit. So, in other words, there's no way this is unconnected.

This is the author of Proverbs way of reflecting on the word and the spirit, but in the slot of word and spirit in Genesis 1 comes God's wisdom. Yeah, there are different ways of imagining the same thing. It's God's wisdom, so it's divine, but yet it's the aspect of God that he used to create something other than God's own self. So it's both distinct from God and divine at the same time. Which then, look at verse 30 and 31, I think makes sense of the metaphor shift. Actually, they continue from the birthing imagery. Now that God has birthed wisdom, verse 30 and 31,

wisdom described herself as a little girl. Growing up beside him, an object of delight celebrating the inhabited world and delighting in humans. So both the language of delight is used a number of times that's associated with children, the play and the laughter of children if you do a word search on it. This is the word laughing, right? Yeah, it's one of them. Real quick, the birthing metaphor then, just to follow up on that for myself. So, do you think the birthing metaphor is about

that unity and distinction? So, it's like from the metaphor, it's like it's from the same body, from God's very own self, but also as a distinct person. Is that the function it's playing? I think so. Yes, in fact, I'll use the words of Bruce Walkie. He does a better job person, is that the function in its plane? I think so. Yes. In fact, I'll use the words of Bruce Walkie. He does a better job. This is in the middle of page 16. Commenting on this, he says, the Lord is depicted as pro-creator who also brought forth wisdom.

The metaphor brought me forth signifies that in the narrative of the book, Solomon's inspired wisdom, right? It's the father's wisdom and then lady's wisdom, but it comes from God's own essential being. So Solomon is depending himself on God's wisdom, which is depicted as the lady wisdom. So what he goes on, it's a revelation that has an organic connection to God's very nature and being, unlike the rest of creation that came into existence outside of God and independent of his being. So it's just saying in biblical thought you have God and then you have what is not God, that is creation.

And what's the relationship between the two and its wisdom? Wisdom is what emerges from God, birth, and then orders and brings forth what is not God. And so here I am a little creature that's not God, but I'm given this personal connection to the very being of God that is through wisdom. And he's saying that it's a way of talking about something that is both distinct from God and also God. Again, this chapter is the seedbed of the categories.

He that will give birth to a trinitarian thought after the time of Jesus. Certainly, this isn't all the birth imagery is doing, but for sure it's one big part of it. I'm going to be a little bit more careful. I'm going to be a little bit more careful. I'm going to be a little bit more careful. I'm going to be a little bit more careful. I'm going to be a little bit more careful. I'm going to be a little bit more careful. I'm going to be a little bit more careful. I'm going to be a little bit more careful.

I'm going to be a little bit more careful. I'm going to be a little bit more careful. I'm going to be a little bit more careful. I'm going to be a little bit more careful. I'm going to be a little bit more careful. I'm going to be a little bit more careful. I'm going to be a little bit more careful. So then, help me understand the growing up imagery. Because to me, it feels a little strange that if God's wisdom, his essence, his birth forth as wisdom, I would just imagine it being fully matured, right? Like, what does it mean that wisdom is growing up?

Okay, so, um, this is an age old question that Christians have had when they read Proverbs 8. In fact, it's precisely this paragraph that was one among a number of key biblical texts that was being debated at the Council of Nicaea when Athanasius and Arius were having this debate on was Jesus the first of all of God's created beings or is Jesus an eternal divine being

who's a part of God's own identity. And areas appealed to this very paragraph to say that the pre-incarnat Messiah was the first of God's creations because he's God's divine wisdom. So this is a charged question in many ways. So the Hebrew word, it gets translated in different ways of verse 30.

Sometimes it's translated, I was a craftsman beside him or with him or an artisan. The Hebrew word is a moon, a moon. And it's not a common word. It's maybe used in one other place, but it's all about what root does it come from and people debate these things. So New American standard ESV translates it as master workman. So it's depicting wisdom as like the tool

or the contractor that God uses to make the cosmos. The word also appears a couple times or a different form of the word appears to describe someone a nirceling or a young child who is being brought up or raised up by someone. And that's what the King James chose way back when. And so it translates, then I was by him as one brought up with him. There's another view that thinks it's related to the route that you did word study video on, Chrisa, the Amen route, in which case it would mean... Continually or faithfully. Continually, which is what the NIV has gone with,

then I was constantly by his side. So my current view, which keeps developing every time I come back to this problem, is that I think it's probably a double meaning between the faithfully, constantly, and the child image, because the birth imagery is so strong in the context of God bringing forth one. But the one that he's bringing forth isn't something that God creates. Wisdom is essential to God's own very being. So the birth imagery, I think, is metaphorical because it's about the birthing of creation, and so creation emerges from God as he carves and creates. But the idea of

a being who is distinct from but unified with the key image in the Hebrew Bible for that is the parent and the child, the father and the son, the mother and the daughter. And the apostles are going to capitalize on both of these meanings, like John. Maybe that's where we could land the plane on this conversation, but thinking about how John chapter one, this seems to be aware of what's going on here in Proverbs 8. I think that would be good. And we don't have a lot of time. But yeah, John 1, he explicitly introduces Jesus as the word of God from the beginning. He doesn't ever use the wisdom of God vocabulary, does he? No, what's great is he uses the language and categories of Proverbs 8. But instead of using the word wisdom, he uses the word word. So it shows in his mind Proverbs 8 and Genesis 1 are self-interpreting. You need to ponder them both together. Yeah, like you said

that wisdom is in the slot of the word in Genesis 1. So in John 1 when he says in the beginning is the word, it's both from Genesis 1, but also that's what Lady Wisdom said. I was in the beginning with him. Yeah it's both from Genesis 1, but also that's what Lady Wisdom said. I was in the beginning with him beside him. And so when John says all things came into being through him, apart from him nothing came into being that has come into being. It's a meditation on both chapters,

Proverbs 8 and Genesis 1, an eternal child of God that is both divine and distinct from the divine, that is with God and was God. It's hard to think of a better short summary of Proverbs 8, Portrait of Wisdom, isn't it? Here what's fascinating is in the Gospels there is this real absence of Jesus growing up, except for that one little story in Luke. So as we talk about this idea of growing up beside him, I just thought of that story of Jesus sitting at the temple.

He grew in wisdom, it says. Oh, and speaking about his father, didn't you know I had to be in the house, my father. So I think what we're not saying, what Proverbs 8 is not saying, there was a time in the pre-creation state when God didn't have wisdom. And then he created wisdom. That's not what the metaphors are saying. These are metaphorical ways of trying to save something that we don't have categories for,

which is wisdom is so a part of God's essence in nature, but it's only one part. It's not the whole part. God is also all kinds of other things too. But that wisdom is a part through which God has reached out to create and interact with what is not God, that is his creatures. God wants his own creatures to participate in that wisdom and share in that divine wisdom. And so it goes out from God. What are metaphors that can do that?

Burthing, children, speaking, and these are metaphors to describe the relationship of God and God's wisdom. And it makes all the sense in the world why John, for example, would use these categories to talk about and express his own conviction of Jesus as the eternal Son, who was not created, but who was with God and was God. Yeah, because another thing we're not saying is that Jesus is merely the incarnation of Lady Wisdom, or the incarnation of God's speech in Genesis 1. It's like using those metaphors, but then Jesus is, how does Paul say it? The exact representation of his being.

The emanation of his glory and the imprint of his nature. Oh yeah, that is Paul, and Ephesians. So that is a whole nother conversation. But isn't it cool how Proverbs 8 takes us there? She gives one final paragraph, it's verses 32 to 36. She says, so now, sons, I've made my kiss. Listen to me.

How fortunate are those who keep my ways. Listen to instruction, become wise, don't ignore me. How fortunate are the humans who listen, who watch by my doors daily, who stand at the door, the entrance notice she's back at the city, talking about the doors. The one who finds me, finds life, finds favor from Yahweh. The one who forfeits me, hurts themselves,

those who hate me, love death. That's such a mic drop. It is. Torians. Those who hate me love death. Yeah, high stakes right there. Man, what a chapter. I mean, you feel like you've been in a room

with the smartest poets and intellectuals in the world when you hang out and proverbs, at least that's how I feel. Then there's so much depth here. It's gonna take me the rest of my life to plumb the depths, but what a majestic depiction. That's something that really is actually fairly intuitive to all humans.

There's like probably a way of, probably like the more right way of being human. There's probably a way that's more wrong. One way is probably more in tune with how this whole thing is supposed to go and one way is out of tune and how do I make the right choices and be the right kind of person?

That's really what this is about. Yeah, and seems like what we gained from this chapter is the understanding that wisdom's ways are in line with the way of the universe of all creation. So living according to wisdom is like living according to the grain of God's whole creation. So there's balance and there's peace and there's rightness. And then it's ultimately the most desirable choice. So there's a warning against like the temporary pleasure and she's saying, I actually, I bring abundant goodness and true life. Seems like that's what we gain from this

depiction of wisdom. Well said. I think you just dropped a microch right there. And also all those who hate her love death. Alright. Awesome. Thanks, friends. Yeah, thank you. It's a good talk. Thanks for listening to this episode of Bible Project Podcast. If you liked this episode, you would probably enjoy the video that we just made on Proverbs 8. We're really proud of this video.

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