BibleProject - Q+R: Son of Man - Son of Man E9

Episode Date: March 11, 2019

Show Notes: Welcome to our Q+R on the Son of Man! Thank you to everyone who sent in questions. Here are the questions we responded to: Matt from Australia: (0:55) I've got a question about humans and animals. It seems like animals get a really bad rap. You've been talking about when humans don't pass the test or live as they're made to live, they're not truly the image of God, they act less than human or to be true, they act like animals. And I'm wondering what about animals is so bad or so wrong? Or are you trying to communicate about a different reality than an animal? Thanks! Petra from the Netherlands: (6:20) In the podcast (The Empty Throne), Tim refers to the Empty Throne in Daniel 7, but if I read Daniel 7 in different translations, vs 9 says "thrones" and vs 10 "the court place." So I get the conclusion that thrones are set for the court. In Matthew 19:28, Jesus tells his disciples that they will sit on the 12 thrones and judge the 12 tribes of Israel. I don't assume that's specific because in Revelation it says 24. My question is, where do you get the conclusion that the empty throne refers to the Son of Man because I come to the conclusion that it refers to the court. Thank you! Rachel from Delaware: (12:35) This is a question I've always had: where is Daniel in Daniel 3? Stephanie from Virginia: (21:05) My question is, why is Daniel portrayed as a new human, a new Adam, when he is not THE new human, the Messiah to come? John from North Wales: (21:20) I've found this series on the Son of Man really exciting. I have a question about Daniel. I was struck when you were taking us through those first chapters in the book of Daniel that Daniel himself actually seems to be a flawless human being. My working paradigm was that there are no heroes in the Old Testament except for God himself, but Daniel does actually seems to pass the test (or at least to not really fail the test at any particular point). So how do you interpret the figure of Daniel? Thanks! Sam from Ohio: (26:04) In Daniel 7:18, 22, 27, it speaks of the saints being given the dominion and kingdom to possess forever. Verse 27 ends by saying, "All dominions shall serve and obey them." But the ESV footnote says it might end by saying, "All dominions shall serve and obey him." Is it a possible interpretation to view the Son of Man as a figurative representation of all the saints of the Most High rather than a specific individual? Or what is the connection between the individual and the collective groups of saints? Thanks! Douglas from Rwanda: (40:15) I was curious about the use of the word "son of man" in other Old Testament books such as Ezekiel. Ezekiel appears to be written before Daniel and they use the exact same word "son of man." I wonder if you know if it has a different meaning, and if not, how is it related to Daniel's use of "son of man?" Thank you! Ivan from El Salvador: (43:20) I love the conversation about the Son of God and how he's someone God gave that title. How, with that definition, do we read John 1:12 that whoever receives him will be called a son of God? How do we understand that, or does John have a different definition in mind? Thank you to all of our supporters! Find more resources at www.thebibleproject.com Show produced by: Dan Gummel, Jon Collins Theme music: Defender Instrumental, Tents

Hey, this is Cooper at Bible Project. I produce the podcast in Classroom. We've been exploring a theme called the City, and it's a pretty big theme. So we decided to do two separate Q and R episodes about it. We're currently taking questions for the second Q and R and we'd love to hear from you. Just record your question by July 21st

and send it to us at infoatbiboproject.com. Let us know your name and where you're from, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds and please transcribe your question when you email it in, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds, and please transcribe your question when you email it. That's a huge help to our team. We're excited to hear from you. Here's the episode.

This is last episode. the Son of Man series. Yes it is. And it's a question and response. I said, Q-Estern. So I'm going to say Q and R. Yeah, so many of you. This might have been our most listened to series. It has.

In the history of the podcast. In the history of the podcast. Which really blew me away because some of the episodes were really detailed about. Yeah, I get geeky. Stuff in the book of Daniel, but I guess we're all interested in the book of Daniel. I guess y'all want to geeky. It's a really interesting book.

So y'all have sent in a bunch of great questions. All right, Matt Martin, you live somewhere in Australia, and you have a great question. Hey, Bible Project Team, just Matt here from Duwamber Australia. Thanks so much for the series from Southern Man. Just got a question about human-to-animals. It seems like animals got a really bad rap. You know, I have been talking about how when humans don't pass the test,

but I don't think that they're made to live, and I don't truly image God that they act less than human, or to be true, they act like animals. And I'm just wondering what is it about animals that are so bad, or are you trying to communicate about a different reality than an animal? Yeah, thanks. Yeah, that's a perceptive question. Yeah, hating on the animals.

Well, in other words, we are using animal imagery in the video as primarily negative. Right. How have we had a conversation about this? Oh, remind me of what we... I just was noticing that we were being really negative about animals. But we were supposed to care for the animals and be at peace with the animals. And there's even this biblical kind of prophetic image of being at peace with animals. Correct.

So it's not like animals are bad and we need to put them in this category of just dangerous. It's like, no, actually, there's this biblical hope of hanging out with animals. Yeah, that's right. So animal imagery can be used in many ways in biblical narratives and poetry. So one is to express an ideal that like, oh, they're like us and unlike us.

We feel a connection to them, where a piece was some of them, and that relationship can work out pretty awesome for all parties involved. It can also go terribly wrong, especially for chickens. But if you were a chicken, it goes wrong for you. Well, yeah. You know, just chickens raise to live in those tiny cages.

Yeah, the tiny cages. The whole existence. Yeah, we're not talking backyard chickens, you know. No, no, no. Yeah, that's not a good relationship to the animals. So the whole point is animals can be a positive image. However, especially in pre-modern cultures, the threat of dangerous animals, animals perceived as dangerous, wild animals, that's a thing.

It's a thing. It's not a thing anymore. It's not a thing anymore. It's not a thing for many people. Not for most people. Most people. I have a family that lives in rural Montana. Oh, and they got cougars and stuff. And they, like cougars and bears.

I think I, in Florida, just get attacked by a cougar. He had to fight it. Yes. Colorado. Colorado. There's a guy, yeah, we're like, there's a trail running. There's a cougars for it. Yeah, he fought like a a cougar, he had to like fight it. Yes, Colorado. Colorado. It was a guy, yeah, we're like, it's a trail running. It's like a trail running. Yeah, he fought like a adolescent cougar.

Yeah. He fought it. Yeah, he had to deal with the interest animals. That's right. Yeah, there was a time in human history where everyone had to keep in mind that any given day, a lion might come and just make you lunch. Yeah, that's right.

So a good distinction to make is within the narrative world of Genesis 1 through 4, when Cain is told that sin is crouching, we haven't met a violent animal up to that point in the narrative. That's true. But in the reader's real world experience, they know about wild animals. And so for the reader, calling sin a croucher, which is something that later in the Bible, that verbal be used of animals, that makes a connection. Pre-animals. Predators. Predators. Yeah. Exactly. So the question isn't, what did Cain think when he heard that? Although that is an interesting question.

The question is, what am I the reader meant to do with a portrait of sin described as that predator, a predatory animal? Yeah. Because that is what it means in Genesis 4. Got it. So that's picking up what the author assumes the reader already has associations with of a dangerous wild animal. So you're right, it's not that animals are inherently violent or dangerous, but they can be.

And that is one of the images used for the powers of evil or sin. And for what humans act like when they don't submit to God's wisdom. Yeah. And then on the other hand, when humans rule with God's wisdom, animals are taking care of. Yes. Yeah, that's right. Which is something that's hard for humans to do. Correct. There's a peaceful coexistence.

You get that in Isaiah 11. That's the Christmas card passage of the wolf and the lamb, the lion and the calf. Yep, that's right. So really, this is all about Daniel 7. That's kind of ground zero for how the Hebrew Bible works with the Son of Man image. And there, the animals are mutant, violent beasts. But that's not their only role in an ultimate scenario. In Hosea and in Isaiah, the ultimate hope for humanity and animals is peaceful coexistence.

Yeah, so kids get to hang out with snakes. Kids will play with snakes, though that's in Isaiah 11. Surely that's developing the Genesis 315. Yeah, see you to the woman in the snake for sure. So thank you Matt, it's a good clarification. Animals aren't inherently bad, but some are dangerous and that's part of the portrait that the biblical authors are developing. This next question is from Petra from the Netherlands. Hi John and Tim, thank you for your podcast. My name is Betra, I'm from the Netherlands. I have a question about your podcast from the son of man, the empty throne. In the podcast team, you refer to the empty throne as if you read specific, the empty throne

in Daniel 7. But if I read Daniel 7 in different translations, I see that in Daniel Daniel 7 verse 9 it says trones and then in the Daniel 7 verse 10 it says the court take place. So if I read that I get the conclusion that the trones are being said for the court and in Matthew 19 verse 28 Jesus tells his disciple that they will take place on the 12 trones and they will judge the 12 types of Israel. I do not assume that that is specific because in the revelation it says 24 24 but my question is where do you get the conclusion that the empty throne refers to Daniel 7 first 9 because I get the conclusion that it refers to not a specific the son of man

but the court so that's my question thank you bye yeah great question Petra there were a handful of people who asked it, and also, if I remember correctly, John, you asked this question somewhere. Yeah, a variation of this question. Yeah, that's right. So, you're right. The empty throne that we feature in the video is, how do you say, it's a creative portrayal of an unresolved thread in Daniel 7.

It's a way of portraying what I think the author is trying to get us to wonder at. We played it up. Some creative license that we're taking. But that I feel good. Because in the dream, it's never described, hey look, there's an empty throne. Right.

Correct. So he sees the beast around trampling. Then in Daniel 7, verse nine 9 he says, I kept looking until Throne's were set up. So the first thing he sees is a big throne room with lots of throne, or just more than one throne. Yeah. More than one throne. Which is likely the divine council. For sure. Exactly. If you're seeing up into the heavens, yeah, it's the divine council. So the chief Elohim, Yahweh Elohim, here called the ancient of days, sat. So he takes the chief seat. So it does leave the question hanging.

Yeah. Who's on those other thrones? Or how were the other thrones accounted for within the rest of the dream? What we do hear about is in verse 10, two details, one, that there were thousands upon thousands serving him, and 10,000 upon 10,000 standing before him. So we get a vision of all the personnel staff of the Divine Theron realm. And then you draw attention, Petra, in verse 10, in your translation it says, the court place literally is the phrase judgment sat, the singular noun, judgment sat, which most likely refers to the divine council who consults with God and then affirms his judgment or decision, they all sat. So the court was seated. Yep. So if you remember in the video You have the ancient of days sitting and then we also to his right of the ancient days

We have like a tiered bleacher seating with all these people. Yeah representing the court You're okay. So that's yeah our way of accounting for the divine council Yeah, but what's significant is the whole point is that a human one is exalted up to the ancient of days, presented before him, and then to him, to that one, is given all of the things that usually characterize God's rule, eternal, kingdom, authority, all of that. And it never actually says he was given a throne, huh? No, nope. But it says he sits at his, hold on, you're importing song 110, which is exactly what you're supposed to do. Okay. But we're not there yet. So the whole point though is that a human comes and becomes a representative participant in the divine, the rule of the

ancient of days. Yeah. So multiple thrones, you have a human now. So if the one on the throne is seated and you have a human one who is doing exactly what the one on the throne is doing, there's multiple thrones. The whole point of Genesis 1 is the image of God representing God's rule. The throne is the image for that.

So what we've done is what Jesus did when he was before Caiaphas, which is in Jesus' mind, Daniel 7 is hyperlinked to Psalm 110, which is about a royal priestly figure from the line of David who sits at God's right hand. And whether Daniel 7's dependent on Psalm 110 or what people debate these things. I think it's more likely that Daniel 7 is keyed into... Riffing off Psalm 110. Psalm 110. So it was really our scene in the video, is a combination of Psalm 110 and Daniel 7. Yeah. So that's the rationale for the empty throne. So that's the rationale for the empty throne.

And as we talked about it, to me it became a helpful metaphor. The empty throne, God wants to fill the throne. It's a helpful metaphor to talk about, man we need a human who will do what God destined humans to do. Right. Great. Thanks, Petra. Yeah, thank you, Petra.

Next question is from Rachel in Dover, is that Delaware? D-E? D-E. I've never been to Delaware. I haven't either. I've been to Rhode Island and that's about as far over as I've gotten up that way.

Huh, yeah, I would like to go there. Delaware. Delaware. Yeah, wow, on a peninsula. Sounds nice. Yeah. So this question is from Rachel Rom in Dover, Delaware. Yeah, wow. On a peninsula. Sounds nice. Yeah. So this question is from Rachel Rom in Dover Delaware. Hi, this is Rachel from Dover Delaware. I have a question about Daniel that I've always had in Daniel 3. Where is Daniel? I've never gotten a satisfactory answer.

Where is Daniel? I've never gotten a satisfactory answer. Totally. It's a great question. You could flip over the question in the story of Daniel 6. Where are the three friends in the story of Daniel and the Lions down. And they had the day off. Yeah.

Yeah. It's an interesting historical question. and I don't know why historically, I do think I understand in terms of the literary design, why he's absent in chapter three. Here are read scripture video, the way the posters designed. Yeah, really helps. It's one of the course designs of all the posters. I think so. Yeah, yeah, ever.

It did a great job. But if you look at the design of Daniel 1 through 7, chapters 1, 3 and 6 are all parallel. They're linked. Every one of them begins with a test of Daniel and the friends, a test of their loyalty to God, their lives are at stake, somebody's out to get them, they're faithful, they're delivered from danger or death, and the king ends up acknowledging their God and they're elevated. That's all Daniel 13 and 6. And if you look at it in the pattern of the book,

chapter 1 has all four of them, Daniel and his buddies. Then chapter three has only the three, and then chapter six has only Daniel. So it kind of, it works in a nice sequence of all of them, one group, and then the one who is missing in chapter three gets the spotlight in chapter six. I guess you've found some logic there, but still at why? Why split them up? Oh, well remember from Daniel one, they are all narrative images of the seed, the messianic seed of David. We're told that they are the royal seed, and so any of them can now play the role of the fate of the seed of David in the belly of the Babylon beast. And because the seed of David is both a collective and a individual, like the word offspring or seed is a collective and a plural, I think that's

part of it. Another part is this, the composition of Daniel is really interesting. Even though the event recounted in the book are set in the five hundreds, early 500s, BC. And so there are stories in the Hebrew Bible from events later, like the story of Esther takes place well after that. Things in Ezra, Nehemiah, or like decades, even a century after the time of Daniel. But it does seem like there are a lot of clues that the literary formation of Daniel is actually one of the latest books of the Hebrew Bible. One of the most interesting things among the Dead Sea Scrolls was found, they're often just called the Daniel traditions, and they are mostly narratives that feature characters

from the book of Daniel, but like stories that aren't in the book of Daniel. Totally, yeah. So there's one called the Prayer of Nabonitis, who was a Babylonian king, and he's having a dream and an experience very similar to what Nabokinether has in Daniel chapter four. And here, actually, I'm working on the read-scriptured video for the... Oh, the update of Daniel.

The additions to Daniel, dude, is so interesting. Because in the Deutero canon, which is also known as apocrypha, Daniel has an extra chapter. Well, that's right. In the, what is now in the Catholic and Orthodox Dudro canons, the book of Daniel has three additional stories in it. But all that really shows is the point that I'm making. In this second temple period, the book of Daniel, its final composition was still fluid.

One of the latest, still fluid, even at a fairly late period. Yeah, there's about half a dozen pieces of Dead Sea Scrolls that feature stories about Daniel or that aren't in the Book of Daniel. So what that tells us is actually what we know about all the books of the Bible is that the biblical author sat down with a lot of source material in front of them and that they selectively chose what stories and materials are going to fit their communication goals for what they want to say in the book. To me, they're so fascinating. The story is about Daniel with another Babylonian king,

Nabil Nidus, who's not even mentioned in Daniel. So when I first learned about this, like there's other Daniel stuff in the Dead Sea Scrolls that's not in the book of Daniel. It bothered me at first. Right. Why didn't it get in? Yeah. The same thing happened to me when I learned about like the apocryphal books. Oh, sure. The dude I can't end, it's like, it's like, wait a second. Why? There's more books and some people think they're important. Yeah. Yeah. And the whole thing starts to feel way more ambiguous than, hey, God gave us a series of books and just read them. Yeah. And so I remember you telling me,

walking me through like how the Bible was produced, put together for the first time. That's right. And it was from explicit statements within the biblical books themselves. Right. Yeah, it's not, yeah. And it was a mind-bender at first, because because it's it's scribes collecting all of these stories and

also Collections of stories that already put together already. Yeah, and then stitching it together in a final literary form and That was hard for me to kind of come to terms with that sometimes in the second temple period, that was the final formation. So Daniel was one of the latest books to have this happen to it. Correct. Not the events in the book, but the literary formation of the book.

And the big part of how we know that is its textual state in the manuscripts is pretty fluid. its textual state in the manuscripts is pretty fluid, even into a late period, like even into the second century BC. And even in the second century BC, I'm on the Dead Sea Scrolls, the other source material that didn't get drawn upon is still accessible to a group like people at the Dead Sea. So for Rachel's question, Yes. One possible answer is, they selected a few, the scribes selecting the stories.

Yeah, the author of Daniel, so selectively chose three testing stories. Yeah. One with all four of them. Yeah. And then one, you could say just, he found, oh, this one, I see here about Daniel and the Lions,

only has Daniel. Yeah. Oh, and this one only has the three, oh, perfect. Just one, two, three. I like it. Yes, we're perfectly. All of them are representations of the messianic seed of David. And it works perfect. And it does work perfect, literally.

Right. If that is uncomfortable to think about, just also put on there, guided by the hand of the spirit. Yes, totally. Right. Yeah, what it means is reframing our concept of the word inspiration to not just refer to a moment in time when a biblical author's mind was emptied of like its own thoughts. Yeah, what was Heiser's way of talking about that? Oh, yeah, Michael Heiser is a way. I forget a conjuring or a...

It's just like where it's like you just wake up and you're like, what did I write? Oh, let's check it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like a profit gets zapped and then he wakes up two days later and he's like, whoa, look at this scroll, let me read what I wrote. It's like, that's pretty good. No, the biblical author's the author of Kings

is telling you every other page. Like, hey, if you wanna read more about Jeroboam's reign, go read the books that I drew upon. They're in the books of the Chronicles of Kings of Sons of it. And biblical authors often refer to their sources, which tells us that they have selected and crafted what's in front of us to get a message across. That's what's going on with the book of Daniel. So actually, I don't know why Daniel's not in Daniel 3, but there's a nice literary explanation that makes good, at least good sense of it.

Great, thanks, Rachel. Yep. The next question is from two people as the same similar question, different angles. We're gonna let you both ask your question, Stephanie and Joan. Hi, my name is Stephanie Taylor. I live in Manassas, Virginia. My question is, why is Daniel portrayed as a new human, a new Adam,

when he is not the new human, the Messiah, to come? Hi Tim and John. My name is John. I live over in North Wales in the UK and I just love the Bible project and I found this series on the Son of Man really exciting. I have a question about Daniel. I was struck when you were taking us through the first chapters in the book of Daniel that Daniel himself actually seems to be a flawless human being. My working paradigm was that there are no heroes in the Old Testament except for God himself, but Daniel, he does actually seem to pass the test or at least not to really fail the test at any particular point. So how do you interpret the figure of Daniel? Thanks. So yeah, this is a great question. Yeah. Why is Daniel so awesome? Well, and why, yeah, Stephanie John asked, why isn't he the one to come? So there's two things. One is

Genesis 3 sets you up with the promise that, oh, there's coming a human. It's going to overcome evil while being struck by it at the same time. So that sets the program for the whole story to follow. So what's put in front of you is story after story of new humans on the scene. So every one of those humans becomes a possibility, a possible candidate. And it's mostly through narratives of testing, moral decision, something that responsibility given, and failure. Well, if you think about it with like Moses, for example,

he is really, really close. And so then there's this very explicit moment of failure for him. Correct. Yeah. Almost as big attention to it. Yeah. That's right.

Daniel doesn't get that. No, he doesn't. So he's played up as he's a seat of David. Got that going for him. Yeah, almost a big attention to it. Yeah, that's right. Daniel doesn't get that. No, he doesn't so he's played up as he's a seat of David Got that going for him. Yeah, he's Faithful to the terms of the covenant, right in terms of eating kosher Won't worship any God. Yeah, but his own Pascas the test so he passes those tests and he gets elevated to Exalted place of rule over the most powerful empire in the world. And in Daniel chapter 2, he's worshiped. He's worshiped, yeah, totally.

So everything's click in a pace. Yeah. When you're at Daniel, you are already familiar with how narrative characters can be forward pointers to, well, if Joseph failed, but his elevation after his suffering up to rule over Egypt becomes an image of the kind of human we need around here. So same with Daniel, who's very much portrayed on analogy to Joseph through lots of Joseph hyperlinks. So what is curious about Daniel is he doesn't have moral failure.

However, after he passes his last test, he has the dream of Daniel 7, and his response to it is to grow pale and sick, and he can't sleep and he can't eat. And then he has another dream, chapter eight, and he can't sleep, and he's sick, almost vomit, and towards the end, almost vomit. And towards the end, as each vision goes on, there's four visions from Daniel 7 through 12.

He gets more and more sick and frail and ignorant. Until, and chapter 12, he's saying, what does this mean when is the time? And what he's told is, go your way, Daniel. Seal up the vision. At the end, the righteous will shine like stars in the dome. Yeah, in the rakia. You know, and the resurrection and so on.

So it's not Daniel's moral failure, but it is his ignorance and his failure to fully understand. There's something lacking. The portrayal in the book. Yeah. So it's a different way where at his best he is an image of the one to come. But ultimately he isn't the one to come. He gets sick and can't understand all these visions and then he dies. His death isn't in the book. So it is different. John and Stephanie, you're right in that he stands out

because he doesn't fail the test, but he becomes one of the mosaic tiles in the portrait of the he revivals seed of the woman. But he also passes away. So I don't know, it's a new category of it's a different type of failure crossing someone off the list. It's not a moral failure. Yeah. He's a different type of failure. Crossing someone off the list. It's not a moral failure. Yeah. It's an inadequacy of a different type. Yeah.

Because again, what we need is a human... It's going to crush the snake. Yeah, totally. Who cannot just resist, resist the power of evil, but actually... Crush it. ...defeated at its source. And Daniel is... He doesn't give in to the snake, but he is bitten by it and dies.

I guess you could say he dies, which is a part of being bitten by the snake. Yeah. Good question. Great. Next question is from Samuel. Hi, my name is Sam from Mary's, Velojio in Daniel 7 versus 18, 22 and 27.

It speaks of the saints being given the dominion in kingdom to possess forever. Verse 27 ends by saying all dominions shall serve and obey them, but the E.S.V. footnote says that it might end by saying all dominions shall serve and obey him. Is it a possible interpretation to view the Son of Man as a figurative representation of all the saints of the most high rather than a specific individual or what is the connection between the individual and the collective group of saints. Thanks. Cool, yeah, we, you know, we had a conversation about this. I think I cut it out.

Oh, interesting. Because the episode was long, and it just was so confusing the way we were talking through it. Yeah, that's right. So maybe we could try it again. Or maybe, yeah, I can just talk about it in a way that's concise. Yeah.

So think the way Daniel 7 works is you're introduced to these mutant beasts in the dream and they are symbols of kings ruling over empires. Yeah. So you have a metaphor, image, and then the reality twitch it refers. But then you also have the one like a son of man.

Now that one is alongside the beasts in the dream vision. So that human, He's down in the human level. He's on the human level, but he's in the dream. Dream is metaphor image world. So you get beasts, beasts representing kings and kingdoms. And then you get one like a son of man riding up to the throne.

So what does he represent? That's the natural question is, oh, he's a symbol too. What does that human one in the dream represent? And do you remember the stage, actually, this became more clear to me more recently, the dream is given in two stages. Do you remember? He gets a kind of a short interpretation of the dream in verses 15 through 18. He gets a short interpretation of the dream.

Then in verses 19 on through the end, 28, he gets a more detailed explanation of the dream. Okay. Then in verses 19 on through the end, 28, he gets a more detailed explanation of the dream. In each one of the dreams, each one of the explanations, each one of the explanations, climaxes with some entity receiving the kingdom. Yeah. And that's how the dream ended with this one of the sons of man. The first time it's the holy people., the first time it's the holy people. In the first time, it's the holy ones. You remember we had this?

Yes. It doesn't use the word people in an aromatic. It's the holy ones of the most high one will receive the kingdom and possess it forever and ever and ever, verse 18. So the holy ones, if you've been tracking with the phrase holy one or holy ones in the book of Daniel, it refers to all of these angelic, the powers of heaven.

That's right. The host of heaven. That's right. So then as you read through the chapter, you're like, oh, the human one is like the human looking divine council angel figures. I've met a couple of them, and one of them was with the three friends in the furnace. Nebuchadnezzar said one of them came and rescued Daniel from the

lion's den. Daniel's going to meet some holy ones later on in the book in chapter 10, one of them's named Gabriel, another one's name Michael. You go, oh, so it's very clearly, Versailles teens talking about spiritual beings. Hold on, I'm holding on. Just think of the literary design of the chapter. Daniel has a dream, which climaxes with one like a human, inheriting the kingdom forever and ever. Short interpretation, what is that

son of man figure referative? And it's called the Holy Ones of the Most High On, Quick Scan. I'm only halfway through chapter, but let me do a quick, concordant search. Oh, Holy Ones of the Most High One. Quick scan. I'm only halfway through chapter, but let me do a quick concordant search. Oh, Holy Ones in the book of Daniel, refers to spiritual beings. Okay.

Okay. Oh, there's another round of the interpretation in verses 19 fall. Okay, let me follow that. And it goes through, we get a little more profile of the super beast and the horn, and then in verse 27 it says then after the beast

and the horn are destroyed, then the sovereignty and dominion and greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the holy ones of the most high one. Wait. Yeah, mind says, let's see, NIV says, then the sovereignty power and greatness of the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people throughout the most high. Okay, so that's not what it says. That's so. So the short interpretation was the kingdom

of the holy ones. The holy ones. The holy ones of the most high one. Yeah. Here it's given to the people of the holy ones of the most high ones. Here, it's given to the people of the holy ones of the most high ones. That's completely flattened out of this transition. So that's unfortunate, because the N.I.E. is an awesome translation,

but in this case, they're not letting you the reader see that this is hyperlinking within a chapter. Remember how biblical poetry works? You get multiple parallel lines that are not identical. They are the first line, it'll make you stay there. The second line will sometimes imitate maybe the grammar or one or two of the words, but it will introduce a different image or a different metaphor.

And then what you're meant to do is compare those two. They're similarity and they're different. So that compare those two. Their similarity and their difference. Yeah. So that's happening on the level of the poetic line. I see. The way literary design works is a chapter will be organized in panels, just like the three testing stories in Daniel and Threan's. Yeah, that's supposed to be comparing them.

You're supposed to view them as a unity like poetic lines in the biblical poem. Yeah. Even though they're far apart in the text text because of all the hyperlinking and verbatim terms, you're meant to see them together. Same thing here. Interpretation 1 ends with the holy ones of the most high inheriting the kingdom. Interpretation 2 ends with the people of the holy. Okay, so, oh, wait, is it the heavenly divine counsel that is victorious gaining the kingdom? Or is it the people, the covenant people of God?

And the whole biblical worldview is trying to tell you, those aren't different things. Yeah. Those are one intertwined reality in chapter 10 of Daniel, when the kingdoms of Persia and Greece are, you know, persecuting Israel or enslaving them, what Daniel encounters is Israel's heavenly representatives, Michael and Gabriel. And they're saying, yeah, I have to go fight the Prince of Persia right now. So the earthly events with humans are a mirror of the heavenly events. And so the very structure of these two interpretations of Daniel is trying to tell you that. Does that make any sense?

It makes sense, but I think what we haven't gotten to is the kind of one interpretation of this is his time of Jesus. Oh, oh, oh, oh. Okay. Hey guy. All right. Who is going gonna inherit and have dominion. Yeah. And so in like ESV read 27,

yeah, yeah, yeah. His kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom and all dominions shall serve an obey him. Correct. And so what Samuel's asking is, well, there's a footnote there and it says, yeah, it could be them. Correct. And then as we saw in both interpretations, it's a group. One was the angel of the holy ones.

The people of the holy ones. So what's the connection between this being a Messiah figure and a collective group within the very nature of the plot of the Hebrew Bible, even though those seem like opposite things to us, they're one thing in the biblical story. To have one person who is many people doing something, it's the premise of the whole biblical story. What do you mean the premise of the whole biblical story? The whole biblical story is about how all humanity is made to rule alongside God.

God. A collective. All humanity is a collective, ruling alongside God. All humanity can be called Adam on page one of the matter. And even there, remember in the poem about the image of God in Genesis 1, it says, and God created the Adam in his image, in the image of God, he created him, that him is referring back to the singular noun Adam, male and female he created them. So even right there in that poetic line, what is two is one? Two is one and one is two. You know, a thing that really helped me kind of understand this

was just thinking about how Jesus and Paul both talk in this way too. Yes. Like I am divine. You're the branches. Yes, that's right. That's right. And Paul, like, Jesus is the head and we are his body. Totally.

It's just like, there is this strange, it's very strange to think about that this one man who was an actual man who was more than just a man, but we are part of him somehow. Yes, yeah, it's not dissimilar. Well I'll just say it's analogous to how we think about representational roles and positions. So, this is true in Genesis 3.15, too. The seed of the woman.

And then you get into the Abraham story, all the nations will be blessed Abraham through your seed. You go on and read a story about the multiplication of his seed. But then the whole drama that he revival is, this whole people is called as the family of Abraham to become that blessing to the nation. And they continue not to be. So both things are happening in Daniel 7. Daniel's activating what we need is... We need a king.

We need a Messianic king. But that Messianic king is really so that we can all reign. That's right. And if the earthly people of God are reigning, then their heavenly representatives, the Holy Ones, will also be receiving another layer, which is the heaven and earth intertwined layer. Which is the other layer. Yeah. So I think what makes this confusing is that

when Jesus refers to the Son of Man imagery in Daniel 7, he refers to the dream image of the human one. Like he says to Caiaphas, from this moment on, you'll see the human one. Yeah. But that human one within day of seven represents everyone. Represents, heavenly and earthly manifestations of God's people. But what are the gospel authors telling us when they show Jesus going out to the wilderness to be tested just like all of Israel went out to

represent Israel? He is Israel in that moment. And we don't have any time for this. This is the whole argument of Isaiah 40 through 55 is that the family of Abraham isn't capable of doing what he called them to do. And so in Isaiah 49, God calls an individual Israelite and says, you are Israel. Renames an individual representative. He calls them that one Israel. And so the Gospel authors are so tuned into this. This is why Jesus testing in the wilderness is the moment of him taking on the mantle of the people of God in his one person. So to be crystal clear. Yes. There's three things going on around. Yeah, there are. In a way. Yeah. There is the Son of Man, this Messianic figure, Jesus is, he identifies as that.

But then, when what does that mean that now a Son of Man can reign in heaven and give all the dominion authority? On one level, it means that everyone connected to him, all the saints, all the people of God are now also reigning. He's the head, we're the body. But then also on another level, it's all the heavenly hosts who are reigning with us because there's this heaven and earth connection, which that's the hardest thing actually for me to wrap my mind around.

Yeah, I'm with you. So let's leave that to the side for now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, cool. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. Cool. That's right. And in that one's exaltation, all of God's people, all of God's family and heaven and earth,

we reign with Him. Find their, find their vocation and calling to reign alongside God too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is what Ephesians 1 did. Yeah. This is what Ephesians 1 is all about. Yeah. This is what Colossians 1 is all about.

Yeah, put some Ephesians 1 that connects to it. Yeah, it's Paul's purpose statement for writing the letter in Ephesians 1, 9, and 10. God's purpose was to make known the open secret of his will, according to the intention that he purposed in the Messiah to Administrate in the fullness of the times to some up to bring under one head all things in the Messiah things in the heavenly realm and the things on the earthly realm Yeah, so Paul has this vision that heaven and earth are distinct and in the messianic rule of the risen Jesus,

the heavenly realm and the earthly realm are brought together. He uses this word of bringing brought under one head. And in Colossians 1, he'll say, yeah, of course, all things are created. The powers in the heavens and the powers on earth are all reconciled to one another in the Messiah. And Jesus will say, all authority on heaven and earth is given to me. That's right. That's right. It's all connected. So the fact that Daniel 7 says the Holy One spiritual beings inherit the Kingdom and the human people of the Holy One inherit the Kingdom isn't a contradiction.

It's actually the whole point of the story. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. All right. Douglas from Rwanda. Hi, John and Tim. This is Douglas Kamarad from Kigali Randa. I was curious about the use of the word Sun of Man in other books in the Old Testament other than

Daniel, such as in Ezekiel. Ezekiel appears to be written before Daniel and they use the exact same word son of man. I wanted to know if it has a different meaning, if not, how is it related to Daniel's use of son of man? Thank you. This is out of my depth.

You spent a lot of time in Ezekiel. I did. Yes. It's thesis. Yeah, I did. The phrase son of man actually appears by number count in Ezek the phrase, the phrase, the phrase means human. It's a normal Hebrew, it's a term phrase, it means human. But it is important, I think, that the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, the phrase, listen to me. Son of Man, say this to Sohn Sohn of Man. So as English readers, you know,

that kind of the rings in our ears, like, oh, maybe this is what Jesus is referring to. The main reason why Daniel 7 seems to be the main reference for Jesus is in so many of the times that he uses the phrase Son of Man, he's talking about ruling, authority, exaltation, writing up on the clouds. Yep. In other words, he uses the Daniel 7 Son of Man imagery.

Got it. However, I need to do more work here. Some other people have. I do think the portrait of Ezekiel, as a Son of Man figure, is a part of the Hebrew Bible's mosaic of the one to come, just like Daniel is. Just like Daniel is exalted from suffering like the son of man. Ezekiel has to eat Israel's suffering. He has a scroll that has all of the oracles of like judgment and disaster that he's gonna announce.

And his calling story is in a dream where he has to like, he has this scroll shoved down his throat by a floating hand. It's a really violent scene. Yeah, it's the scroll. So he has to eat and internalize the very judgment and disaster that he's going to proclaim to the people. And then right after that is all those weird stories of him having to cut off all his hair

and eat the bread cooked over poop and to tie himself up with cords and like rye then the dust. Yeah. In one of those symbolic acts, God tells him to bear the sins of Israel. symbolic acts, God tells him to bear the sins of Israel. So he's a prophet bearing the sins of Israel symbolically, which is very much bound up with Isaiah's suffering servant. So there's something going on with Ezekiel as a son of man figure that is important. It's just that that's not the primary text that Jesus seems to be alluding to when he used the phrase. I would like to do more work on that. Cool. Let's do one more.

Deal. I have an email Salvador. Hi, my name is Ivan. I am from the Salvador and I have a question. I love the conversation about Son of God and how the Son of God is someone who got entitled with that title. I have a question. How in that definition we have to read John 1,12, John 112 and whoever who receive and believe in him will be called Son of God is Enter in that idea or John has something different He wants to tell in that verse is my question. I hope you can give it answer Thank you very much for the Bible project and the Bible Bible pray podcast. You're being amazing. Thank you very much for the Bible project and the Bible prayer podcast. You were being amazing. Thank you again. Oh, yes. Son of God, Son of Man.

Yeah. It was crystal clear in my mind after we talked about last though. Just that. I think finally it settled in. Oh, okay. Right. Son of Man, human one, but then in the biblical motif, it's a human one who reigns in a divine way. Yeah.

And Son of God means a spiritual being, is how it's normally referred to. Correct. But then when humans refer to a Son of God, you're like, Oh, why are they getting this special kind of divine treatment? Exaltation. This is the exaltation. It's just a different way to talk the same thing. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

So. But his question is, why are you called the Son of God when you receive Jesus? Yeah, dude, this is so good. Yeah, the Gospel of John's perfect. So what I've been referring to is John 1, 12, which is after John 1, which says that the word was with God and was God, and then that word is also light, it's all Genesis 1 imagery, and then the light comes into the world to bring light to every human. So the light came into the world, and the world was made through the light, but the world didn't recognize him.

This is all anticipating all the conflict, ignorance, motifs, and the gospel of John to come. He came to his own, but his own didn't receive him. But some do receive him. He says in chapter 1, verse 12, and to those who receive the light, he gives them authority to become children of God, to those who believe in his name. Now let me clarify what I mean by children of God here. Not children born of blood, namely ethnic bloodline or humans. Correct. Yeah, so not not about human normal birth processes of birth or ethnicity. So, Zizn about Israelites. Yeah. Well, okay, hold on. So, when he came to his own, he's referring to Israel. Correct. So, then, so he came to Israel, not everyone saw him for who he was, some did,

and they were called to visit children. To they were given a, yeah, it's the word techno. Oh, so it's not the same phrase. Well, it's not a gender specified phrase. Sun is gender specified phrase. Okay. Though, sons can actually refer to sons and daughters as a family, that's a whole other thing. But it is the gender neutral term techno. Okay.

Children, children of God. Who are the children of God? Believers, those who believe in His name. So not blood, so it doesn't matter if you're is-related or not. Matter is-related or not? Nor, I've always puzzled over these lines. I think I understand them, at least a little bit more now.

So they're not the result of normal bloodline. New. Nor the will of the flesh. These are children not born of blood, not born Nor the will of the flesh. These are children not born of blood, not born of the will of the flesh. Think through the book of Genesis, and how the promised seed is... Oh, like...

Produced. Like Abraham has to like go an extra like... Yeah. Like everyone has to kind of force it. Correct. Like Abraham and Sarah need these children from God. Yeah. If they've been promised, they're not having them.

Yeah. So through the will of their flesh, they scheme like, oh, I'll sleep with Heggard. Sleep with my slave. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the will of the flesh. The will of the flesh. You don't have to make it happen.

Yep. Judah and Tamar. Remind me. Genesis chapter 38. Do it. Where Judah has multiple sons, a couple of them are really terrible and so God kills them.

It's an intense story. And then the last one, he's afraid that God's gonna kill. And so he won't let him get married. But he was engaged. But he was engaged. And so he won't let him get married. But he was engaged. The third son was engaged to a woman named Tamar. And so then the whole thing is about her scheme to keep the seed alive. And she schemes up this plan.

That's right, yeah. And sleeping with her and all these kind of things. And anyway, it's all design patterns. That's the story when you're reintroducing your like, oh, it's so cool. It's so cool. I mean, the way the design patterns are cool. The way that that story contributes

to the Joseph story and how it develops the themes of Genesis is crucially important. But that's a story if you're reading with your kids. You're kind of like, that's a skip of chapters. Because it's full sex scandal. It's full sex scandal. But anyway, so that's the will of the flesh. So we're not talking about a family of God

that follows from one bloodline. We're not talking about a family of God produced by human scheming and desire. Yeah. Rather, this is a family born of God. That's his last line, born of God. And here, John's just going to say, press pause on that until the conversation with Nicodemus in chapter three will address that more.

So to be called the Son of God is about my inclusion into the divine community of love of Father, Son, and Spirit, which is your right. It's my exaltation to a new transformed identity. Yeah. And in Paul's thought, that happens when I'm resurrected into humanity 2.0, where my physical makeup will match my identity as a son of God. And in Paul's thought, in some way now, it's already happened. Yes, it has already happened through the spirit.

Yeah. And the spirit helps me realize in the present what my future resurrected destiny is. Yeah. That's how it works. And to be a son of God is to be ruling heaven and earth together with God. It's not that I actually know what any of this really refers to.

What is it all actually mean? But I mean, I do and I don't. Yeah. Like literally what is a new body, human being, what's a new civilization of humans? Yeah. I mean, that's the future of the resurrected universe. Yeah, what's the future of the resurrected universe. Yeah, what's the future of the resurrected universe? Yeah, that's right. Which it's an interesting thought experiment that I never knew to have when you just think

I'm just going to go to heaven. Oh sure. Yeah. But when you're like, oh no, the world's going to be recreated. We're going to have new bodies. We're still gonna be human, different. It activates all this like sci-fi, like kind of virgin meat. So like, think about it, but what can we know? Yeah, I think what is tempting is to let it remain kind of like a sci-fi speculation set of ideas.

That's not where any of the apostles take it. That's not where Jesus takes it. Right? For him, it's just like, yeah, love your enemy. When you resist the urge to get even with your enemy, and you give a gift to them for no reason except that God loves them, you are participating in new creation, a new kind of humanity.

Like us where they go. Yeah, it's very immediate. It's immediate. Whatever the new universe is. We don't need to wait for it. Yeah, don't wait for it. Yeah. Also don't think that you can bring it about, but bear witness to it by living according

to new patterns of behavior, new values values and you will begin to taste it That's Paul's whole understanding of the spirit the spirit is in us trying to move us to do stuff like that Yeah to experience the new creation. So there you go. That's a whole other Series that we should explore one day. It's a great. It's a great place to end. Yeah Couple questions for you. Well, maybe it's to be good times for everyone to know. Next up on the podcast is we actually never finished the axe conversation. That's right. We have now finished the videos on the book of axe. Yeah. All the videos are out. But we still had some. But we had recorded a conversation talking about axe was at

21 through 28. Yeah, Paul, raising money for the gift to take to Jerusalem, his arrest in Jerusalem, trials. Yeah. So we're gonna fish off the X series next. Correct. On the podcast. On the podcast. Yeah. So yeah, looking forward to that. It's actually really great. Unity of the church.

Yeah. Conversation. Totally. Very cool. Yeah. Good stuff. Yeah. What else has happened in this? This is the only kind of real time. Oh, that's right.

Think we do. The idea would do. Yeah. You know, we've had a lot of people reach out about the classroom, because we took applications for the biopartic classroom. We did. Back in like the fall of 2018. Yeah, we got a lot.

We got. Thank you for seeing us. Yeah, so many. And sorry. And we've had two already. Two classes. Two classes. Yep. Yeah, so many. And sorry. And we've had two already. Two classes. Two classes. Yep. Yeah, we had 10 students come and we powered Ephesians

for three days. Then we had a group of students come, we powered the Gospel of John. Yes. We'll probably do another call for those at some point, because we're going to continue to do it. And we'll continue to draw on the pool of applicants. Yes. But yeah, that's been fun.

Yes, awesome. So we're going to do one more in the spring on Jonah. That's been selected. So then I think the website, with the classes all edited and ready to take as an online class, that's going to come in the fall of 2019. And also, we're just then going to continue a pace of doing new classes. So for those of you who are curious about it, it's rolling. It's just not fully public yet. It's a lag time between the events and

when the classes are made public. Yeah. However, if you did apply to be a student and weren't selected, you were going to get an email with the option to take the class online class before everyone else and kind of give us some feedback. That's right. Yeah. To give it as a small token of thank you for applying. Yeah, thank you for applying, but also it's going to be a huge help for us because there's

going to be little things that we missed and then we'll just get some really valuable feedback from you all on What we can improve Or what you liked yeah Yeah, and what videos are we working on right now? They won't come out till later. Yeah, but we're in season five right now Yeah, and we're doing the spiritual being series. And so we're actually working on the last, because there's seven of them. So we've got one more in the can that's coming out in two days from when we're recording this,

which you'll have been out by time it drops. And then there's five more after that. Correct. And we're writing the last one. Yep. We're actually, we're done it today. We're going to tomorrow. That's right. The new humanity. Yep, new humanity. done it today. We're going to tomorrow. The new humanity.

Yep, new humanity. Yeah, yeah, totally. Which is going to be going to be awesome season. We're shaping up season six. Yeah, yeah, we're already have our eye on fall 20, 19. Yeah, for the videos, a little start coming up then. Yeah, which is really exciting. Yep. So, yeah, thank you, you everyone who, well, thank you for listening with us and nerding out at the Bible. And specifically this topic, super nerdy and heavy and... Yeah, it's awesome.

I think it was awesome. Yeah, totally. Thank you for your questions, thank you for listening and for your encouragement and support. We love getting to do this and we can do it because so many of you are behind us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Sure thing. Hi, I'm Neuilin from Sri Lanka. I'm the pair Neuilin, Ilangay, Mama Neuilin Sri Lankaing.

My favorite thing about the Bible project are the three the scriptures series. We believe the Bible is a unified story that leads to Jesus. We're a crowd-funded project by people like me. Find free videos, study notes, podcasts, and more resources at thebipeproject.com. Molesi Daghadakhra, Bible E. Sampuna, Katandarya, Jesus Vahansi, Vetteta, Gunukarna, Katandarya, Akbar, Hapavisa, Sakarenava.

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