BibleProject - Reading While Black – Feat. Dr. Esau McCaulley

Episode Date: February 8, 2021

From biblical deconstruction to the responsibility of Jesus followers in government and social justice, we’re looking at what the Bible has to say about some of society’s biggest questions today. Join Tim and Jon as they interview New Testament scholar Esau McCaulley, author of Reading While Black: African American Biblical Interpretation as an Exercise in Hope.View full show notes from this episode →Timestamps Part one (0:00-13:00)Part two (13:00-26:30)Part three (26:30-33:30)Part four (33:30-42:30)Part five (42:30-end)Show Music “Defender Instrumental” by Tents“Pablo” by jlsmrl“Skydive” by loxbeats“Wanderlust” by Crastel“Mind Your Time” by Me.SoShow produced by Dan Gummel. Show notes by Lindsey Ponder.Powered and distributed by Simplecast.

Hey, this is Cooper at Bible Project. I produce the podcast in Classroom. We've been exploring a theme called the City, and it's a pretty big theme. So we decided to do two separate Q and R episodes about it. We're currently taking questions for the second Q and R and we'd love to hear from you. Just record your question by July 21st

and send it to us at infoatbiboproject.com. Let us know your name and where you're from, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds and please transcribe your question when you email it. That's a huge help to our team. We're excited to hear from you. Here's the episode. [♪ Music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in to talk with Issa McCulley. Yeah. Occasionally we interview biblical scholars who are working in the field of biblical theology.

And a few months ago I read a book by Issa McCulley. He's a New Testament scholar at Wheaton College. It's a Chicago. Yeah. Yeah. He has PhD in New Testament at the University of St. Andrews, in Scotland. And he's a serious contributor to New Testament studies.

But he put out a book in 2020 called Reading While Black, African American Biblical Interpretation as an exercise in hope. And I came across a review of it and read it and was like, this looks awesome. He's doing biblical theology, but specifically offering it from his perspective in the American Black Church tradition. Yeah, and that's what he means by Black ecclesial. Yeah, ecclesial, that's a special word. Yes, that's right.

Yeah, that means churchy. That's right, you'll hear it come up in the conversation we have with Issa, ecclesial. It's from the Greek word for church. For church. The Black Church tradition. It was really wonderful talking with him. Yes.

He really helped me understand and appreciate, you know, I grew up in, I guess, what you could call a white, ecclesial tradition. And there's certain things that comes with that that are good and bad. And being able to step aside and have someone from a different tradition, speak into that, that's such a wonderful gift. Both we just wanted to let you, our listeners know about Esau's work and commend it to you, but also we're in this series right now in the podcast in the Family of God, tracing the theme of the multi-ethnic family of God throughout the story of the Bible. And Esau's work is such a great example about how the cultural, ethnic diversity of the body of Christ is essential to us hearing a holistic message

from the scriptures and not just what maybe any one tradition kind of conditions us to see or not see. And so, there's a conversation we have with Esau about that point, about how to interpret the Bible, but we just thought this would be a great contribution to the series and I was really enriched by Esau's perspectives from his background. And we think that you all will be good. Here's our interview with Esau.

Esau, thank you for joining us today on the podcast. Great to talk with you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Yes. Well, I like a lot of other biblical scholars around the country, probably around the world, found out about you through your recent book, reading, while black. And then I discovered through your other published book, is your dissertation?

Previous to that, is that right? Yeah. This is my second book before every reason somebody people didn't want to buy a hundred and twenty dollar book about inheritance law You're selling yourself short. It's amazing. It's about Messianic inheritance and Abraham seed in the letters of Paul That's a good stuff man. I liked it. I'm just saying like you didn't invite me on the podcast of the fiber project It's talking about sharing it into the sounds in the air at this. That's true. Oh, man, I'm just... I'm feeling...

What did you write your first book? It's like you could ask me that two years ago when I wrote my first book. This is the second one. That's right. So, before we dive in to the book and the ideas in it, just sketch a bit of your story. You saw some of your family history and how did it all lead you to end up in biblical studies. Oh man, that's the whole podcast right there.

No, I grew up in Huntsville, Alabama. Alabama stand up for the Alabama listeners. I grew up in an all Black neighborhood, all Black church. My grandfather was a pastor at aunts and uncles who were pastors in the Black Baptist tradition. And so I just grew up in that context. That was the world that I knew. That was the world that shaped me. It was in the shadow of the civil rights movement where when I was a kid, my heroes, people like Medgar Evers and Martin Luther King. And we grew up in kind of like the shadow of Jim Crow. And so when I was a kid, I wanted to be a pastor because everybody, every black person who I knew who like loved the Bible, that's what you did. We didn't really have categories, perrualical scholars. And so I talk about this in the books. I don't want to like step on an indication when asked me about it later,

but basically long story short, I go to college thinking I'm gonna be a Bible major to become a pastor and Lots of things happen and you can tell me about which parts you're interested in and I eventually found myself pursuing a PhD in New Testament and instead of being a pastor much to my mom's eternal shame So she still thinks I'm a pastor. She's like you just preach it in in schools like no mom. I have a whole PhD You're like, you just preach it in schools. Like, no mom, I have a whole PhD. And I'm a professor now. What was the initial spark that got you interested in the Bible just being in church with people?

Yeah, I mean, I believe in black. I mean, this is not a stereotype, it's just like these are statistical facts. Black people have the highest rates of church attendance in Bible reading in the country. And so I was just raised in a context we just loved like I just love. I don't know. Sometimes you read, I read this, you open the book and it's just like there's all of these great stories in it.

My favorite book of the Bible growing up was Ashley first and second Samuel. So maybe like what becomes the sharing in the service and heritage, the book, the none of y'all read. So I grew up just reading the Bible and enjoying it and finally get useful and helpful for me to navigate life in America as an African-American. And my heroes were people who looked in the Bible and said, this the God in this book wills freedom for black people. And so it was a source of personal spiritual comfort and it was a means by which I was able to look hopefully

into the future as to what God wanted to do for me and for others. And so I don't know if there is a mark until you, I remember when I was growing up, my mom gave me one of those cartoon Bibles or comic book Bibles. And they had like, there's the narration at the top, at least in the Bible that I had. And then there's the like dialogue between the characters on the pages.

My mom got it to me and I said, I'm gonna read the whole Bible. And so I read the whole Bible and at least I said that I did because I didn't read all the summaries. I remember thinking I read all the dialogue. Yeah. I remember this so vividly as a kid

because I was kinda lying about reading the Bible And I was wrestling in my own young conscience. Yeah, just said mom I read the whole Bible and in my head I said technically Astros skin your mind ask you like so like I need to mom if you listen to in the fourth grade I didn't finish the whole Bible. What didn't read all the narration at the top. I think I skimmed second Chronicles mother, forgive me. She's just finding out about this right now. What do you say you want to call her? I remember that. We had things like Superbook growing up.

We used to watch those stories. Yeah, my mom was like, she just raised us. If there was a VBS happening in the city, we were there. We went to Wednesday. We went to Wednesday Bible study at my church. We went to Sunday school. So I didn't have a choice as to whether I was going to read the Bible. Yeah. What I was going to like it was something that in the Providence of God I did. I would tell you this is the other thing, as relates to seminary. I remember when I was in college,

and this is skipping a whole bunch of stuff, but this is something I've never said on the podcast before. So here's some new data. I was listening. So I was sitting there and I was teaching the Bible study on Romans. And I think there is like one book that I had saw at a bookstore about a Romans commentary.

And so I bought it and I would just like read the commentary and then I would like give the Bible study. And I remember seeing people like writing stuff down that I was saying and I was like, I could be completely wrong. I studied this for 15 minutes before I came into this room. Y'all like writing this down like I know what I'm talking about. And I said, well, I said rhetoric,

the ability to speak well, it's like really dangerous. All right. And I said, I don't want to just be entertaining the people and then have them listen to what I want to say. I want to handle God's word rightly. So I said, when I decide to go to seminary, I want to learn to Greek and the Hebrew and enough air mag to get through portions of Daniel.

To be able to say, I've done everything that I can to read and understand this text well and then apply it to people. And then when I got to seminary and everybody has different experiences, some people hate the languages, some people love them, some people love the Greek, some people love the Hebrew. But there is something about the Greek language that just spoke to me and it captured me. And I just love reading it. People asked me about my favorite Bible translation. Sorry, this is the last Bible story.

So maybe this was inspired people who were thinking about learning the languages. I know you didn't put me on the podcast to do this, but this would happen, you need to have a professor. You have to love the Bible. So I remember sitting one day in a Bible study and we were going around the room and we were like reading very,

by very, by very, by very, by very, by very, by very, it was all in English. But I was listening to people read and I could tell by the translation the decisions about the Greek text that the translator had made. And it was like the matrix for the first time

with all this. This is a new level. Yeah. By the time they got to me, I was like confused because I was like the matrix for the first time with a whole thing. This is a new level. By the time they got to me, I was confused because I was like, why did he do that with the Hina clause? And so for me, the posture is a reading God's word in its original language is to apply it well to people, has been something the God has just grown in me from a child slowly up through adulthood and that passion is still there. Yeah, what a gift, you know, so many people,

especially Americans and how and what traditions they grew up in really determines a lot of that. But for example, John, you grew up immersed in the Bible. Yeah. But when you came to college, you had this baggage in this tension with the Bible that was growing uh-huh and it sounds like Esau for you even I'm sure there were lots of questions driving you I skipped I skipped a question part but it sounds like it was just mostly positive and curiosity and it was positive growing up yeah and so yeah so it was growing it was positive growing up when I

got to college this is the place where in chapter one I talk about this. It's the first time I experienced kind of like higher criticism. And I talked about entering like the, I used to language of the hundred years war between kind of white progressivism and white fundamentalism. And so my professors were all theologically progressive.

And they saw like the Bible as the problem because I'm growing the South at this point and they said look, look at all of the stuff to the Bible that did justify slavery, the oppression of women, all of this colonial empire. So all of these reasons the Bible is horrible and we need to kind of deconstruct the Bible in order to like get liberation from Black people.

This is a white professor saying this to me. but I was like, well, hold on. This saying Bible, did you say there's a tool of oppression in my context? Is it to a refrigerator? So now I'm confused. I said, well, hold on because you seem to be agreeing with the like the racists who said the Bible just for slavery. And my parents said that the Bible, the people who said that were wrong. And now you're saying they're correct. Yes. And so then I'm with the point where we go, hold on. This is the conclusion I come to you intellectually. If the Bible is unreadable,

apart from a German reconstruction, everything becomes white man's religion. So hold on. My mom said, my grandparents said that the God in this book will political, social, and spiritual transformation for black people. And I felt like there were better exegies. And so it's not a matter of like ducking hard questions or not dealing with difficult issues. The book deals with difficult issues. It tries to lick them face on. But trusting in the Bible, at least for me, is an act of the will. You can find problems. The problems present themselves to you just by reading it. But the question is, what do you do with those problems and how do you work through them? I try to work through them with the hermeneutic of trust. Because the full definitive revelation

of who God is in Jesus Christ reveals to me a God who loves me and not a God who hates me. If this I'm not a Marceonite, I think that the entire Bible refers to the same God, from Genesis to Revelation. And my job is to try to make sense of how what we know about who God is, can be discussed as we move through the 1 tbc dc 1 tbc dc 1 tbc dc 1 tbc dc 1 tbc dc 1 tbc dc 1 tbc dc

1 tbc dc 1 tbc dc 1 tbc dc 1 tbc dc 1 tbc dc 1 tbc dc 1 tbc dc 1 tbc dc Okay, you just dropped so many goodies there on that train of thought. No, it's awesome. So I want to go back to what you're talking about your grandparents

What they taught you to see in the Bible so in the opening chapters the book you you call this you're trying to give voice to a tradition that you called the black Ecclesial tradition. Yes, so unpack why what that means what you mean by that and then second why Why did you feel that this tradition needed to get some new energy and new voice that you want people to hear that you don't think has been represented? Yeah, I think this is very complicated and actually very sensitive because you don't want to centralize things, right? But if you look at the academy, for example, and you look from the white Christian tradition. From

left to right, you can have very progressive institutions to be considered institutions. And all of them are engaged in a dialogue about the nature of the Christian faith. And that's fine. That's what the academy should be. But when you look at what happened with the development of African American theological tradition, for for a variety of reasons mostly being the fact that even your local spaces weren't really interested in hiring African America in the 50s and the 60s coming during segregation. The people who were willing to hire African Americans were from the progressive strand of the white mainland mainland tradition, which means that Black theology sometimes is from the more progressive strand of the African-American Christian tradition more broadly. And so the more moderate or traditional, there's another strand which I kind of get to in the other parts of the book.

There's also like a really conservative strand of the African-American Christian tradition that is mostly partist and that it doesn't really get involved in the issues of the day. It's focused most on the buying buy. So you see those two traditions most clearly represented in the academy and they dialogue with one another. But there's a whole other stream of the African American Christian tradition that is basically orthodox in this theology believes the things that Christians have always believed. And it's also known for its advocacy for justice. And that

tradition is not often presented as a viable dialogue partner in the public square. And so it was the tradition that I was raised in. It was the tradition that I saw all around me in Black churches. And so I called it ecclesial tradition, not because no academics think that way, but that it is, it's primary location is in churches, in the sermons, in the music, and in the teaching ministries of Black pastors. And so what I thought when I wrote the book, is that if I captured that tradition well, Black pastors would look at that and go, he got it right. So I wanted to say,

he cleansed you up because he was never fully separated from the church. And I say that without making the claim that there are no black progressive suit, attend churches or that is not ecclesial in that regard, when I'm trying to say, there's a distinctive ethos that I was trying to capture. Yes.

I also contrasted that with kind of, and this is the important part, when I speak trying to capture. Yes. I also contrasted that with kind of, initially the important part when I speak into generalities. In general, the progressive tradition in white church spaces have our know for a strong advocacy for justice, but are often revisionist on key elements of Christian teaching. And in general, evangelical churches tend to be theologically traditional but very hesitant in the issue of justice. And so the African American who comes out of the Black church who maintains the sense of the Bible as God's word towards for our good, who's also concerned for justice, finds

himself or herself often out of vogue in a variety of communities. And I say I wanted to put my finger on that. And if I articulated that well, then people would rally to it. And so one of the positive responses to the book is that a lot of people have said, I see myself in that description. And one of the interesting things that's been kind of an unexpected benefit

are things like, well, even Jolokos who are now starting to care about justice go, oh, this is the kind of Christianity that I want too. So that's been their window in it too, because other people have that same kind of disorientation where they don't fit in the theological camps that currently exist. Yeah, thank you kind of, you're painting a map,

a social map, so to speak for us. Of Bible reading communities, and I don't think people take seriously how much they are a part of a Bible reading community that that has its own every community has its own strengths and weaknesses and its own blind spots. And so I'm speaking about my community in a way that hopefully allows you to see your community well and then maybe through mutual dialogue we become better readers to the Bible together. So actually that's yeah that's perfect to kind of a next layer to this. And this is a deep rabbit hole in literary theory and hermeneutics.

And so, I don't want to go too deep down it, but you had a good way of putting it. And it's just a basic claim that isn't controversial once you see it at work, that all communities interpreting the Bible are reading it in a way this influence by their social location. And that can be limiting. Yes. That can be limiting and determine shape things that we can't see. But it can also be a great asset when you get different communities sharing their unique contributions. I think that people, well, certain people get really emotional or really worried when people talk like this because what they hear is I can't understand the Bible

if I'm not black or something like that if I'm not white or if I'm saying that your skin called a determines Bible interpretation. But it's always better when things are heated to take a step back unless you use an analogy that people will understand. Anyone who's preached in two different churches, from one, you move from one part of the country to the other. And you begin to ask yourself, this is really important. So I want people to like understand the claim that it's being made.

When you say, okay, if I live with, if I'm pastoring to a group of young singles, and I'm thinking, and I have a book of the Bible in front of me, and I'm asking the question, how does this passage speak to the community of like, these young singles? You'll say, oh, there's something that I didn't even think about that's actually in the question, how does this passage speak to the community of like this, these young singles? You will say, Oh, there's something I didn't even think about that's actually

in the text that I didn't consider until I had that community in mind. Then if you look at a different community, you go, Oh, here's another element of the text. And so what I'm saying is the community that you consider influences, doesn't create things in the text, it allows you to see nuances, it's called motivated readings. And everybody's done this. Everybody's done this. And so what I'm trying to say is that like the idea that when I start asking myself, what

does it look like to read the Bible with the African-American community in mind, I'm going to notice something to someone who's never thought about that community may not consider. The other thing that you can think about, here's another example, I've always understood the incarnation. I've always understood a marriage done. I have a different understanding of that now that I've been married and I've seen someone actually be pregnant. And so watching a pregnancy unfold and a birth has made me understand the incarnation better. So our experiences shape the way that we see things and sometimes they help us and sometimes they hinder us. People who come from the majority world

talk about how materialistic Americans are. And they're appointed by, they appoint out about all the ways which we ignore the ways the Bible talks about materialism as Americans we let's assume these things are normal and we hear that testimony from the global South or the global church we receive it as a gift If that is the case then it is okay to say that my experiences as an African American and America shaped the way that I see the world and It influences the way that I see the world and it influences the way that I read the Bible

Some ways it helps me and some ways it hinders me Which is the reason why I need other people who have different experiences to help me read the Bible better And the idea that none of us are influenced by our experiences is simply not true An example is I teach a wheat in college and is simply not true. An example is I teach at Wheaton College, and every year the students are allowed to choose whatever topic they want to choose for their like one Bible talk passage.

And without a doubt, like 75% of the women will choose one of the women's ordination passages. And like none of the dudes do it. We get it. So I'm just telling, I'm being able to write down it. So we're actually not reading it as carefully. It doesn't mean that the women are going to get it right. It means that they are paying close attention to that passage and they're reading 15 books about it because they're motivated reading because it touches on their lives. The fellows,

at least in my class, they're like, we got this, we know what this says. And so they're not paying attention to it. So they're, like, their inability to take the question seriously has made them poorer readers of text. So why are inability to take the question seriously has made them poor readers of text. So why are the women really excited and reading it very carefully and the men in some cases not reading it carefully because they're not invested readers. So we actually need people who are invested in different parts of the Bible to bring the best readings forward. And so what I'm trying to actually do is activate the entirety of the body of Christ in the process of Bible reading because I trust that somewhere In the body of Christ

People who are different from me can help me read the Bible better We talk about this all the time in other contexts. We talk about like the German temperament And how Germans do Bible studies is different than the British temperament And then we give you an example. Sorry. I know it. This is rant. I'm rambling, but this is usually here So I did my PhD in the UK and one of the things I know is hopefully the bridge no get mad at me Like there they're so undone by how excited Paul was in Galatians. They just like he's so heated He's so heated the British are so button up like laws like emotionalism. Yeah. It's just like, it's like too much for him. Like, well, like I'm from a context where we can say how we feel

it. And I've never, I never read Galatians. And said the problem is Paul's tone. Never said it. Never said it. Read upper middle class European scholar discuss Paul. Oh, he's so fiery. Well, that means the cultural value of emotional kind of detachment is influencing their critique of Paul. Yeah, social location. Yeah, the secret. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. It is. Why can't Paul say it the way that he feels it? Why is Paul does run on sentences and he starts one idea and he starts you up. That's how I talk. I did the same thing. That's just podcasted.

So we value certain things. Yeah, that's right. And so what I'm saying is like you're sitting in Europe, you're sitting in Germany, you're sitting in Germany. And they say, go back and read it. They say in order for Christianity to become the universal religion, the conserved modern man, we need to make it less Jewish and place Jesus in the context of Greco-Roman philosophers. Why do they want to make Jesus do a Greco-Roman philosopher cynic? Because that matched the temperament of people in Europe in the 19th century. So tell me that the intellectual claimant in Germany and in Europe and the 1900s did not

distort Jesus scholarship for 30 or for 100 years. And it's not until after the after World War II where we go, oh my goodness, what did we do? And how did we end up there? Where if you go back and you look at black pastors during the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s, who were saying Jesus was Jewish and the Jewish Bible contains the story of the God of Exodus who wants people to be liberated. And while we say Jesus is Jewish and the Exodus is important because we're looking at the Bible and saying that we need something to talk about our freedom and when we go there, we see the text talks about freedom

So the Germans and the African Americans are both reading the Bible from their social location from 1900 to 1940 and who produced a better reading of the text and why did they produce that reading? It wasn't because they were detached The African Americans were involved They were detached. The African-Americans were involved. Now, it doesn't mean though. It doesn't follow from that, then in every case, the African-Americans are going to get it right. History shakes and moves, and sometimes

sometimes our location can hinder us, it can help us. But to pretend like this doesn't happen. Yeah, yeah. Right? So all of these things are, what I want to say is, we can't remove ourselves from the interpretive process, but what we can do is offer our gifts to the community for analysis. Yeah, thank you. Many examples.

Let's just keep rocking some examples. But the best essentially what many of the chapters in the book are, different biblical themes that you're trying to express through this reading traditions. Let's do one that struck me because it's very, it would be unique to you and to the tradition you grew up in, which is what it's like to be reading the Bible and encounter as main characters or heroes, people who are from the continent of Africa. I will never have that experience. So, talk to me about some of these characters and what they mean to people in your tradition. Yeah, one of the things that I think people don't understand, this is actually where

there's often times difficult to communicate, the kinds of conversations that go on in black communities. So one of the things that people say in the black community with an internal critique of Christianity, it's a Christianity is a white man religion and that we were forced to become Christians by our slave masters and that it's not an indigenous faith. And now it's a consistent criticism that's leveled to the level of the Black Christians in Black context. I'm just finishing listening to the autobiography of Malcolm X and this was his one of his main platforms. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I talk about this in the book. I grew up and people, this is the point

that I want people to understand. So often in other spaces, they think of this spectrum running from conservative to liberal. And people that are deciding between conservatism and liberalism. But for me, it was like black nationalism in its most radical form, like something like Malcolm X and Christianity.

That's my spectrum. Yeah. And so when I say I'm going to look in the text to see other Africans, I understand that it's not necessarily the part of Africa that I descend from. But the point of the matter is, it is, it is simply a matter of the biblical record that Africans are part of the Christian story and the Jewish story. And so I told the story and this no one told me this growing up. But this is like these are facts hiding in plain sight. Every man NASA are half Egyptian, half Jewish. Those two boys are brought to Jacob.

They brought their brought to Jacob. And Jacob literally says he says it. He looks at those boys and he says God made a promise to me, the who made me a family of many nations. And if a film of that promise, I'm going to take these two boys, have African, have Jewish and make them two of the 12 tribes of Israel. And he does it because of their ethnicity.

So this idea of the Bible doesn't see color, it's just ridiculous. Yeah. Well, this is the ethnic difference. It's the, it's ridiculous. He says, I need these two boys because God promised me the nations. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So then when I say I'm a part of the story of what God is doing in the world or black people are part of what God is doing in the world, it's not simply because God brought in like Africans and I'm from Africa. It's the fact that God's heart was always for the nations of the world, that it was never a monothe ethnic reality,

the Abraham, see this is the problem, we make Abraham and the father of many nations and we make it all global. And we push it like to the missions Instead of thinking about what it means in our actual lived experiences And so I just walk through and I point out the places with this occurred the one that really struck me the most And it's so weird when you're writing and discovering things at the same time You know, we can say to you right it totally yeah, I'm writing about I knew I wanted to write about The youth you'll be in unique in Simon of Syrien

Simon Syrien being the one who was held the one who carried Jesus's cross. Yes and I remember when I was writing the part about Simon of Syrien and I'm writing about him being converted through the caring of the cross of Jesus And I think we have real reason to what he the Simon becomes a Christian Which is what I had in my notes, but I didn't have this connection. I turned to, I was gonna discuss the Ethiopian Unique, but he's also converted by reading

about the suffering servant, who is like, he's in like, and he asks Philip, who did you refer to? And you know Philip preached the cross. That's the best opening of it. I'm like, I wish somebody would come and ask me, hey, I'm reading about the suffering server. Who died, this guy who dies for the sins of others. Who could it be? Like what better opening of a sermon could you possibly get? And so he goes and I go, hold on. You have these two Africans,

these two Africans who are brought to Jesus through the preaching of the cross. And what I gathered from that is the black people that drawn to Christianity, like everybody else that drawn to Christianity. We're not magical. How do you reach a black person? Will you, will you preach the whole gospel? Anchor in the cross of Christ. And so like the idea that I then find the cross compelling is a part of, a tradition of African Americans who

or African people from African descent who looked at the cross and found it compelling. And so that's what I was attempting to do. I was trying to show that we're not like sneaking into the narrative into lobers, but the weird part that all people are part of a Cosmere versus. So that chapter that focuses on African Americans is actually true of anyone, but since we're denied, often that place has to intentionally include us. 1 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 個 Let's look at another example that is also really timely, at least in American culture right now. This is the chapter you do on theology of policing. So in the traditions that I came to faith in in my early 20s,

I still remember this when you want to develop a New Testament theology about the Christians relationship to the state. There's Romans chapter 13, and then there's the passage in first Timothy about praying for your leaders. And I still remember like that was that was what I was given It was in a class and this was in chapels So what you show in this chapter is that that is insufficient and not a faithful representation of the whole new testament teaching About law enforcement. So yeah unpack this chapter for us. I think the people misunderstand this chapter Because there's a lot I mean everyone thinks it's a lot is going on

Yeah, the first thing I'm trying to do is like point out how theology in biblical studies works Everyone is trying to make sense of an idea are clustering text together and thinking of one ally to the other And I'm saying that there's actually no real reason why we have to begin with those passages as the as the Lynch to which we see everything instead of doing that like the book of Revelation which contains a sustained political critique and how would the history of Christian political theology be different if we centered Revelation and then added in Romans 13. Now not deny Romans 13, I'm saying the decision to say that this is the first text is itself a decision because you also have the entire example of the prophets, right?

So when the prophets come to a king and say to a king, you're engaging in justice. You know what they're talking to? The government. And you know who the prophets and the Old Testament criticize? Kings, not just Jewish kings, but also Gentile or pagan kings. And even in the book of Daniel, Daniel seems to expect Nebuchadnezzar, where you know the story of Nebuchadnezzar, I'm gonna get the Roman 13, but you gotta put the thing in there. So you know, on Revelation, you know, you

know in the story of Nebuchadnezzar, where he's gonna go crazy, he's gonna eat straw and kinda be a crazy person. We always know that story. And we always think, oh, I know it's about his pride. Nobody reads the Bible anymore. Read the thing to the end. Yes. Read all into the bottom. And he says, therefore, never can answer. Seize your oppression of the poor. And it may be the God will have mercy upon you. So yes, never can answer was arrogant, but it's arrogant manifested itself in the mistreatment of the of the citizens. And Daniel says, if you stop this, maybe God's going to have mercy upon you. And that be a concern isn't Jewish.

So it seems the God expects all governments to treat people in a certain way. And if they don't treat people in a certain way, then he's going to ring about judgment. And so when you read the Bible, what you see is, this is the book of Daniel. God, I'm going to take this nation, I'm going to judge this nation, I'm going to take this nation. And God's always picking up nations and toss the nations aside. So we know, ask Christians, that God is always in the process of analyzing, judging, raising up, and tearing down nations.

We also know that he uses human beings to do so from the Old Testament. So then how do you make sense of all of those things into Roman 13? What exactly is Paul saying? And this is where it is both a traditional and a non-traditional reading of Roman 13. I think what Paul is saying, it is beyond the competence of Christians to discern the role that they can play in any kind of revolution. So in that sense, the Christian submits to the state. But it does mean that the state in any kind of revolution. So in that sense, the Christian submits to the state, but it does mean that the state is not free of

judgment. And so what happens to often is submission to the state is translated into trust of the state or acquiescence to the state. But when you actually pay attention to what the Bible, like if we want to say the Danube was submissive, the Daniel was not in some kind of proto-violation in Romans 13, then Daniel didn't do all the time when Nebuchadnezzar told him to do. The Joseph did always do what he was told to do. We have examples in the Bible of what Christians did when they had no political power like the Hebrew midwives. So submission and acquiescence aren't the same thing.

But what tends to happen is that when black people protest injustice, we're told to submit, which actually means be quiet. And there is no evidence that Paul means be quiet. And there is no evidence that Paul can't even, that we can't even say that God is judging a sinful nation. We just can't discern the roles we play in it. So I am actually an advocate of, or I would not say that Christians can claim divine justification for some violent revolution. I don't believe that. But I do believe that the Bible gives us full freedom to engage in a robust, sustained critique with the civil

argument we call non-violent resistance of governments in our day. Now as relates to policing and I have to try to be really, really, really brief. It's very simple. Romans 13 is the focus in Romans 13 is the citizen's responsibility to the state, submit to the state. But in the course of making that discussion, Paul also outlasted the responsibilities of the state to the citizen.

Because he says, if you've done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear. Well, then that's the actual, that's the only request that African Americans have ever had. We have noticed, we shouldn't have to be afraid. So in Paul's articulation of of like what Christians should do, he's also making it clear to what the state should do. Now, if I'm in a Democratic Republic

and I have a legitimate gripe, this is the state is that the sword is sometimes a source of fear. Didn't as well within this scope of the Christian tradition for me to say, do better. Yeah, you saw that's such a good example, thinking back to the conversation a little bit ago about social location and the invested readings.

Such, just that chapter struck me at such a good example of that different invested readings will read Romans 13. I want people to understand this. This is an exeatical point. When Paul says the emperor has to sword. He's not speaking about the emperor running around physically enforcing laws. He is saying that the emperor says to policies that infect the lived experiences of the people Those policies should not result in fear For those who are innocent

So that goes from the government to the policy to the people So that means when I want to talk about transformation of the experiences of the people I can't just simply say I want to change the heart to some people and hopefully they treat me well It's actually to actually go to the people and hopefully they treat me well. Actually, I actually go to the government and whatever form exists, especially in the Democratic Republic, change the way that the state directs the sword

so that the lived experiences of people are better. That's what I think the responsibility of the Christian is. In the wider context of our, I'm not an anarchist. Like, Christians believe that the government is a created good as he gets of God. What does it mean that they created good? They are stewards. They're stewards of persons.

They don't own us. When the government is being a bad steward, it's our job. I mean, we tend to think of like things like what David did, it's merely a like moral sin. You're talking about the David. But David, but he saw something he wanted and he took it. And he took it and then he got rid of the person who could claim it back.

That was his power and his lust corrupting him. And Nathan says, you are that man. You're the guilty one. If you think it wasn't, you think it wasn't like a politically dangerous thing to do to go and talk to a king about his sexual life. You're the man. You did this.

And that has, and this is the important part. That sexual dysfunction, that sin, that assault, I want to make sure I get it clear. Has ramifications all the way through into the actual life of the nation, ultimately resulting in things like war and division and schism. And so this all of the stuff manifests itself. And so when Nathan is stepping into that world, he's stepping into a politically fraught place. And so this idea that the only job

of the Christian is to kind of sit back and pray is a sub-biblical idea. It does not take the entirety of the Christian witness seriously. Yeah, thank you. Does that chapter of such a great example of the kind of perspective you're trying to offer? In their exegetical claims, the reason why I think the authority of scripture is so important

in this conversation is that if I say no one can have access to this stuff. Yeah, yeah. Unless you see all my experiences, they know my experiences cause me to make exogetical claims, but you can challenge those exogetical claims. So that's why I think that the centrality of Scripture allows us to have a real conversation. There isn't time, and I knew that there wouldn't be, and that's okay. The culminating chapter is about slavery in the Bible, old New Testaments. I am just going to tantalize our readers and say, and just encourage them or our listeners, or listeners, who I hope will become readers.

So just say, you saw offers of really just as thoughtful a perspective on slavery in the Bible as we just had briefly about law enforcement, and I just encourage people to take a deeper dive. Can I say something about like, I'm assuming there are some pastors who might listen to this. Yeah, yes, a lot. I'm kidding, I know. Okay, all right, good. So part of, you have to think about like,

I want people to, I'm going to pull back the curtain to talk about book structures. So the primary thesis of the book is the idea that the Bible has been and can be a source of hope in an African-American context. An idea with the different ways in which that could be true, dealing with the issues that we're facing today. And so it may seem like a strange question, a strange move to conclude that book with the discussion of slavery. But for us, that's the question that's behind so many other questions.

How do I make sense of a Bible that includes slavery? And what I want to say is, I didn't know how, and I don't know, we'll see how it comes out long term. But when I began that chapter, I didn't have a conclusion in the sense that I know how I'm going to solve the problem. It just is a problem that I had to address. And it was a, like, not an easy thing to do. As a matter of fact, those who inclined to pray, I'm writing a whole book on Paul and

slavery. That's going to be my next major project. Okay. But I felt like you have to answer the question that the people are asking. And so if you're going to engage in ministry, sometimes you got to stare the thing in its face. And you got to deal with the difficult questions in a way that includes pastoral sensitivity and courage, trusting that God will meet you there. So when I sat down to write the contract, I just sent them like, I'm going

to do only thought, I'm going to talk about this, this, this, this, this. This is a contract for the new book? No, no, the book about the reading my black book. So when I wrote the contract for that book, I didn't have any, like, no chapter, there was one chapter that was written which is a draft of the policy chapter that I sent to them.

Everything else is just like a paragraph. I'm gonna talk about this, this, this, this, this, and this. And I'm gonna say, I'm gonna end with slavery. And so what I talk about this, this, this, and this, and this. And I'm going to end with slavery. And so what I'm saying is like part of, and we'll see. And it's actually the longest chapter in the book. But what I'm saying is you have to be able to meet the people where they are. Yeah. And deal with the questions they're facing and give them a way through it.

I think ultimately in and say, hope. And it doesn't settle for like, try a simple answers because life is complicated the Bible is something is complicated Sometimes our answers to these questions that people pose have to be complicated. Yeah, it's good. Yeah I can't give you the answer, but that's actually not the end It's not the end. It's the last the last media chapter the last chapter is yes, and exercise in hope That's the name. That's the final chapter besides the bonus chapter. I keep ending. It's like the people who can't get off the stage. And like three endings. But I would tell you this is actually in the book. This relates to it. Yeah. Because this is what actually

is. You know how you build towards something? It says that the slave question will be with us until the Eskitan. Then for we must continue to read, write, interpret, and hope until the advent of the one who answer all our questions or render them redundant. So actually, the end of the book, the formal end of the book is I want us to keep reading, writing, and struggling until Jesus comes back. Who will answer the questions? And so part of what you're doing as the pastor, as I can speak to the people who are pastors who are listening, you're helping the people hope until the source of our hope finally returns.

And so if the book help people hope a little bit more, can I succeed it? Yeah, that's good, man. Esam, thank you. That's really. Yeah. That heartbeat and that passion came through in the book and really moved me personally. Yeah. that heartbeat and that passion came through in the book

and really moved me personally. It was so funny. It's so funny. I don't know how much people know about how academic world works. But I was like, you know what? I'm gonna be super Christian in this book. And I didn't even pretend like this is not for Jesus.

And I'm gonna make this argument. It's academic, so I don't want to this argument. I like, it's academics. I don't wanna make people to say, it's not like a devotional. But I said, my faith influences the way that I read these texts. And so I can't pretend that's not there. And I just wanna write a book

that was just like ultimately hopeful. Cause I felt like when I wrote it, there was just, it was just so, we've been through it like, this is a season. We've been through a season and this isn't just like the season of coronavirus. But like I started writing the book in like 1617s.

It's been a rough season in the life of the church. And I had this strong conviction that I need to write something that was hopeful. But the book went through like 15 different titles, but the one word that never left any version of it was hope. He saw you also have a podcast. He told me about that because these are podcast listeners are hungry for more things to listen to.

Oh, the disruptors is a podcast. What basically is for people who are disruptive in a particular way. Disruptive isn't not an assistive, they're deconstructive of the text or Christian tradition more broadly, but because of their commitment to the scriptures, they challenge sometimes a status quo. It's a podcast for Christians who love the Lord, who love the Scriptures, and who don't always fit in because of that.

So if you're looking for a cynical podcast, this is not it. Okay. If you want a podcast, there's also this is gonna like, you know, comfort you with daily devotions. That's not it either. It's challenging. So we had people this season, we've had La Cray,

Beth Moore, Justin Gibney, oh gosh so many people. I won't say the rest of the names. Those are the first three people on the first three episodes of this season. So, it's right with the last season, my good friend Titch Warren was on last season. So, there's a lot, you can start at the beginning and then kind of move through the last. It's only like, we have 10 episodes of season. So it's only like 10 last year and like, we don't like eight this year. That's sweet.

Awesome. Yeah, that's great. Well, thank you so much, Esau, for spending time with us. Yeah, thank you for all of the late nights. Yeah. And early hours of the morning, writing books is hard work. Thank you for taking the time to put this out there. I published my, this book, this is the second one,

but I wrote it during the, it finished. It came out during the 40th year of my life. So those people who are feeling like you gotta get all of this stuff done now, and just take your time, it'll be fine. That's true. So maybe if God did it for you when you were 25, you probably couldn't handle it anyway.

So. Yeah, that's good. That's good. That's good. Awesome. Well, you saw, thank you for taking the time to talk and we're excited to share your work with our listeners. Thank you so much. I hope you all like it.

Totally. Thanks for listening to this episode of Bible Project Podcast. Bible Project is a nonprofit organization. We exist to have us all experience the Bible as we invite Story that leads to Jesus. And to that end, we do this podcast. We make videos that summarize the content in this podcast. Those videos are on YouTube and our website, BibleProject.com.

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