BibleProject - The Bible as Divine Literary Art

Episode Date: February 8, 2017

What does it mean for the Bible to be both divine and a work of literary genius? The Hebrew Bible is a sophisticated piece of literary art that has a theological message, and that message is communicated through a nuanced literary medium. On this podcast, Tim and Jon spend plenty of time talking about the literary structure and design of the books of the Bible. They examine the themes in the Bible that are found throughout the entire narrative arc of Scripture. But for this episode, they back up and talk about what the Bible is in the first place. The Bible didn’t drop out of heaven, it was produced over hundreds of years by many different authors that came from one particular people group of ancient Israel. The story of the Bible emerged from the history of God’s people. The Bible tells a story with Israel at the center, but the main focus is the story of all of humanity. Video: This episode is designed to accompany our video called, “What is the Bible?” You can view it on our youtube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak06MSETeo4&t=3s Show Music: Defender Instrumental by Rosasharn Music Blue Skies by Unwritten Stories Flooded Meadows by Unwritten Stories

Hey, this is Cooper at Bible Project. I produce the podcast in Classroom. We've been exploring a theme called the City, and it's a pretty big theme. So we decided to do two separate Q and R episodes about it. We're currently taking questions for the second Q and R and we'd love to hear from you. Just record your question by July 21st

and send it to us at infoatbiboproject.com. Let us know your name and where you're from, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds and please transcribe your question when you email it in, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds, and please transcribe your question when you email it in. That's a huge help to our team. We're excited to hear from you. Here's the episode.

Tim and I like to discuss how books of the Bible are designed, their literary structure. We also like to talk about themes in the Bible, motifs that go through the entire narrative arc of scripture and tie the whole thing together. But in this episode, we're gonna take a step back, and we're gonna talk about what the Bible is in the first place. The Hebrew Bible is an extremely sophisticated piece of ancient literary art. It has a theological message, but it's doing it through this incredibly nuanced literary medium. The Bible didn't drop out of heaven. It was produced over hundreds of years by many different authors who all came from one particular people group known as ancient Israel. It came into existence through the history of how God was at work with a people. It emerged out of that history.

Through this people, God's working in human history in a unique way. You're trying to understand the story of the biblical texts and the message that they have. They're telling a story that has the people of Israel at its center, but it actually has the story of the whole world and all humanity as its main focus. In this episode, we talk about this collection of ancient texts that we call the Bible, and why Christians have been intimately tied to this book. Here we go.

So we are going to produce a series starting in 2017 about what is the Bible and how to read it. 17 about what is the Bible and how to read it. It's a very 101. Very 101. We've been taking people through books of the Bible, themes that run throughout the whole Bible, but I kind of don't on me, us, over, I don't know, recent past, that we don't have anything in the video library

that takes someone who has virtually zero or zero knowledge about the Bible and helps them get going. Yeah, all our videos assume you understand some basic things about the Bible and you're ready to jump in. I mean, you could just start in the Genesis videos and dive in, but that doesn't help you know why Genesis is in the Bible and how it fits in to this thing called the Old Testament. We just don't have a lot like that.

Yeah. So that's what we're going to talk through, specifically what's the Bible, how it's composed, and not so much what we want to talk about how we got the Bible. Yeah. That would be a whole nother conversation. Oh, yeah. That is awesome. That we really that we plan on having in the future.

Yes. Things we want to work on is a lot of historical origins and where these collections that are called canons came from. So we won't have that conversation, but we will talk about what the Bible is and it's what structure. Yeah, and the different forms that the Bible takes in different religious communities today, because there's more than one shaped to the Bible.

Yep. That's a controversial topic. So, yeah, so the way this is going to kind of flow is we just want to do a basic outline of what is the Bible and where did it come from and its basic shape. And then also, yeah, why did it take shape in different forms in different traditions and Christianity and Judaism? And by different forms, you mean there's the Jewish Bible. Jewish Bible, the Christians would call the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible. And then there's the Protestant Testament as a collection of 27 books. But then also in the mix is a number of Jewish writings that were written in the period of the Jewish Second Temple in between.

After the Old Testament history period, not necessarily the formation of the book, the history period, and before Jesus of Nazareth. Yeah. And these... The inter-testamental period. Yeah, sometimes call the inter-testamental period. I think it's more helpful to call it the period, the second temple period of the house, referred to. Why is that more helpful? Because, well, it gives us clear demarcations. Like nobody was marking history by when did the Old Testament end? That's the end of an era. When did the New Testament begin? Like they were just in the thick of historical events,

the swirl of the events. But arguably, New Testament writings are also second temple Jewish church. They are. Second temple literature. That's exactly right. So it is helpful to call them both second temples. I think so.

Yeah, there is a huge amount of literature produced by its relied people in the period of the second temple. And some of that literature got shaped into what became the Hebrew Bible. Others of that literature were important, but weren't included within the original shape of the Hebrew Bible, but were read and valued by Jewish communities.

And that's the stuff. Including the followers of Jesus. And many of those books are the books that are found in the Catholic. Yeah, so Catholic tradition, and even proceeding, there were discussions about these books as some kind of a collection alongside scripture, but they were affirmed as scripture

within the Catholic tradition. And so that's seven separate books and then two updated versions of Old Testament books. And that's the Catholic Bible. Within the Orthodox tradition, Greek Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, there's even a couple other books in their collection. Okay. So yeah. Which books are those? The Enoch?

Oh, they have Enoch. Significantly, yeah, the book of Enoch. Yeah. And so all that to say is the Bible, well, this is important just to say from the beginning. And it's something important to us that the Bible project is addressing a cultural perception that to believe that the Bible is a divine word means that human history and human involvement in the Bible was incidental or not significant because that would mar the fact that it's a divine word which essentially needs to have fallen from heaven. And that's an assumption that I think is actually not true

to what the Bible says about its own origins because there's lots of information in the Bible about its own origins. But also, we lose something really important about what the Bible is, that it came into existence through the history of how God was at work with a people through history. It emerged out of that history. And so we should expect the Bible's story to be somewhat complex, because God's chosen to get involved in the mess of human history. So the Bible has different shapes in different religious communities. And that's just a historical fact that's got to be recognized. And the quick cheat sheet is Jewish community is what the Christians call an old testament. There is in the Catholic tradition, what is it for, inter-testamental books.

Seven books and two updated editions. Seven books. Seven distinct books. Seven more books, those were written during the second temple period, that Jewish people didn't consider part of their canon, but considered significant religious rights.

Well, in the same way that in world Christianity today, there is a difference of opinion about the shape of the Bible, Protestant Bible, Catholic Bible, Orthodox Bible. That same kind of diversity existed even in the second temple period about... When they were canonizing their scriptures. The shape of the Hebrew scripture. Okay. Yep. So some religious groups would say that was their scripture. Part of this case. Some would say only the five books of the Torah.

Okay. We know of groups that said that. We know of groups that accepted what's called the three part shape of the Hebrew Bible that to knock the law, the prophets, and the writings. There were other group. We, one of their libraries was discovered with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and they seemed to have viewed some of their own writings within the community as having some kind of authoritative divine status as well. So throughout history, there's been diverse religious groups that have, I believe, the

divine scriptures to have a different shape. So that's gonna throw a wrench in some people. And that's okay. It's through a huge wrench in my view of things. Okay, so yeah, so Jewish... Okay, so yeah, so we've got the Yishii. I'm trying to keep this simple without it. I know you are, and I keep making a complex. No, that's fine. It's great.

Yeah, so we got the Jewish scriptures, which we keep the simple stuff. I know you are and I keep making a complex. No, that's fine, that's great. So we got the Jewish scriptures, which we call the Old Testament, but for them is called the Tenak, but during the Second Temple period, there wasn't an unanimous decision. Yeah, this is a surprise when I first learned it, surprised many people, but the form of Judaism, modern Judaism,

as it exists today, in all of its different branches, reform, orthodox, and so on. But all of that comes out of one crucially important stream of Jewish history in the Second Temple period. But it, it's not the only form that Judaism took in that period. It's just the one that became the most dominant throughout history. And the rest ended up going away. Called a rabbinic Judaism. Okay. The shape.

And it's the Judaism that informed not only by the scriptures, but also by two other bodies of religious literature after the scriptures that helped them understand the scriptures. Yeah, we're those called again the Mishnah and the Talmud. The Mishnah and the Talmud. In a way, easy parallels to think within Jewish history, the Hebrew scriptures were supplemented by another body of literature, the Mishnah and the Talmud, that all help the people of Israel observe the laws of the Torah with great faithfulness. And that, and that, one was that all worked out.

It's all post, that's generating the ideas and the conversations and the traditions behind the mission of Talmud are taking place in the period around Jesus and afterward. Okay. So what happened to all the other Jewish traditions? They were a part of historical groups that just went out of existence. Some still exist, like, I mean, there's a debate. There's a group called the Samaritans who claim a connection to the early history of Israel. They still exist.

There's a very small population, it's a small ethnic population that's existing and carrying on, on the basis of the five books of the Torah. There were, yeah, other groups, I mean, they're mentioned in the New Testament sometimes, Sadducees. The Pharisees are the nucleus of the group that would become the shapers of rabbinic Judaism. Oh, really? Okay. They were totally rabbit trailing here, but that's great by me.

So what's the sadducees? How do they differ from the Pharisees? Sadducees were the power brokers in Jerusalem, who were in charge of the city and the temple complex. So they weren't like rabbis. I mean, there were religious tourist scholars, on payroll. But for the most part, they were a small group of elite and powerful families running the show in Jerusalem.

The Pharisees were a lot more like a popular religious political movement that didn't have a base of power in Jerusalem. Jerusalem, but they had centers of influence all over the land of Israel. And they were rising to their peak of influence in the period of Jesus and the apostles, which is why they appear so much in the New Testament. And you're saying that's the seedbed for the rabbinic tradition? Exactly right. As far as we can tell, yeah, the Pharisees are the nucleus. They had a vision for what the Jewish people needed to become. And after the destruction of the Jewish temple in 78D, it was these leaders who forged a new path for existence.

Because Israel existed as a temple Jerusalem focus, religion. And then there's no more temple. And then there's no more temple and Jerusalem's destroyed. And so the Pharisees were, yeah, the seedbed of what would become Judaism as it exists throughout its history. And so this all takes place post-New Testament period.

And so the interpretations of life according to the Torah, that the Pharisees were developing, kept developing and later became these two bodies of literature called the Mishnah and the Talmud. I see. So they saw the Tanah as the canonization of scripture. Yeah, absolutely. They treated as whole, you know, a divine human word. I mean, it's fat. And there's even more writings that these Jewish scholars produced in these centuries. But what's interesting to me, it's a parallel to

the Jesus movement and then the writings that Jesus followers produced that we call the New Testament. It's the Hebrew Bible in and of itself is an incomplete storyline. It demands some form of completion. And so rabbinic Judaism and what's become the dominant form of world Judaism today is one way. That was one way of a community completing. And so they supplemented it with other literature and they are living out their vision of what they think the scriptures call God's people to. But the Jesus movement was claiming the exact same thing. That the story of the scriptures was being fulfilled in Jesus and the movement. He started the Dead Sea Scroll community that produced the Dead Sea Scrolls down at Kumron,

which is the name of the location today, where they believed that the story of the Hebrew scriptures was coming to be fulfilled in themselves and their community and their leader, who they called the Teacher of righteousness. So again, this is a good example, where the Bible took a different shape in each of these communities because it emerged out of their history. Yeah. And so to understand what the Bible is, automatically, kind of tees you up, at least knowing something about the history of the people group at the center of the Bible, which is the history of the Israelite people.

So we said we weren't going to talk about how the Bible was formed. I know. And I feel like we're jumping into that. But it's helpful. Okay. So Jewish scriptures, we call the Old Testament. Yeah. It's the Tenak in rabbinic Judaism today.

Yeah. Binnick. Rabbinic Judaism. Most main branches of Judaism today. Also have the Mishnah and the Talmud, which supplement. Yeah. And they, but do they, they don't put it at the same level? Ah, it depends on the tradition. It depends on same level? Uh, it depends on the tradition.

And the way it depends on the tradition. Okay. It depends on the tradition. Yeah. So some of their traditions will call it, uh, at the same level of scripture in the same way that Christians will consider them New Testament. That's right. At the same level of tradition.

Yeah. And there are traditions with Injudism that actually treat these later texts, mission and Talmud, it actually, in day to day use, more important than the Hebrew scriptures. Just like there are some forms of Christianity that treat the New Testament as more important. The Ligonologists will test them in a scripture, but they never read it. Right. They just read the New Testament. Got it. And there's a parallel to that within some Jewish groups as well. Yeah, probably because it's more applicable to it. It's more applicable to

their place in the story. Yeah. well. Yeah, probably because it's more applicable too. It's more applicable to their place in the story. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Okay, and then Catholicism. It's tricky. So the Catholic Bible results from this body of literature that's pre-Christian. The Catholic Bible is a body of literature that's pre-Christian. They're calling the apocryphal or deuter canonical work.

Jewish scripture, this is Jewish literature. Or pre- works. Jewish scripture, or this is Jewish literature. Or pre-Christian. Yeah, Jewish literature, this pre-Christian. Yeah. By pre-Christian you mean before Jesus. Definitely. For Jesus, exactly. Yeah.

So these texts, I mean they're brilliant. They're incredible works. And you should know about them and read them. They're amazing. But as far as we can tell from our ancient evidence, and I actually happen to hold a view about the shape and history of the Hebrew Bible and the canon that's not the majority view within the scholarly field. It's not a fringe view, the view that I hold, but it's not the majority view, which is that the shape of the Hebrew scriptures, the tonk, the

Protestants knows, the Old Testament, that that's the original, most early shape of the Hebrew Bible, and that that was, the boundaries of that were roughly firmed up within, somewhere within the third to second century BC, and that that's precisely the time period when these other works that are called the apocryphal or deuterocononical works, time period when these other works that are called apocryphal or deuteronical works. That's when these works are being produced. And most of these works are aware of themselves as being dependent on the Hebrew scriptures in some way.

Dependent, meaning they quote from it, they're aware of it. Well, scripture does that to itself all the time. Totally. Yeah, I'm not saying it's a reason why it should or should. God part of the Bible is just they, they're clearly come late in the literature of the biblical tradition. And I think there are a number of internal clues within the Hebrew Bible and about these books that show they aren't designed to be part of the Hebrew Bible. They're just awesome literature that existed in Jewish communities alongside the Bible. And in the Catholic tradition, and in the Eastern Orthodox tradition. But in the Catholic tradition, and well, in the early church, these books were read and preserved

among Jesus's followers. Yeah. I mean, they're the reason why they actually were passed on and existed is because early Christians were reading them widely. So whether or not they called them, consider them part of Scripture, they were revered and they had cast a long way. They've always been read and valued by Christians until the Protestant Reformation. And then only Catholic and Orthodox people

have tended to read and value these writings, which is really unfortunate. But yeah, so there was debate going on, even in the first few centuries, about the status of these books. Are they considered divine human word, the same ways the Hebrew scriptures? And there's a lot of debate going on about that.

And that gets us more to the details that are real, fascinating, but I don't. But we won't get into. Dude, this video's gonna have nothing to do with the formation of the mouth. Yeah, this video really, beginning of the how to read the Bible series, it's just gonna be like, what is the Bible?

Yeah. It's the Old Testament, it's the New Testament. That's the hell Protestant Bible. Hell I know, I know. I know. I know. I know. I know.

How they came to be to understand why there's differences. I agree. But we don't have to get into it. I agree. So we're gonna have to find a balance. I agree. So we're going to have to find a balance. Let me try to, let me try to do this some more time. We'll get through it. Interrupted you for more time.

No, I just keep rabbit trailing. So there's the Jewish scriptures called the Tanakh. We call it the Old Testament by we Protestant Christians. You and I, you and I. Called the Old Testament. There was Jewish Second Temple writings that came on the heels of that, which some Jewish traditions considered scriptures

some didn't, called the Inter-Testimental. No, the Apocryphal or... The Apocryphal is how Protestants referred them. Deutero canonical is how Catholics and Orthodox. Deutero, Deutero, which just means a second canon. A second canon. A second part of the canon, yep.

And Jesus followers read these, early Christians read these, and then there was all the material produced by Jesus' apostles, and that is then the New Testament. The New Testament. The New Testament. Which Protestants considered part of the canon and so do Catholics and so do Eastern Orthodox. Correct.

That leaves just one more wrinkle, which is the Eastern Orthodox. As a couple more doudero canonical books than the Catholic tradition. That's correct. Okay, this will make much more sense when we visualize it. Yeah, yeah, it will. Yeah. So the Bible is a book and I just want to talk about this idea of a book really quick.

So when I think of a book, I have different categories. I think of a novel. So a story with characters and a plot. And I pick it up. Chapter one, I start reading. I learned about the world. This story takes place in and this conflict and resolution. And by the end, the book is done. That's so that's fiction.

And then there's a nonfiction book, which is a lot of, it seems like a lot of nonfiction books I read are kind of like how to books, how to get better at things or how to think about things differently. And those are like more topical. Here's a topic, creating a business, and here's a book with a new idea for how businesses succeed or something. But then I'm also familiar with textbooks, going to school, and those are more like, let's try to really systematize all the information you need to know and bring you through it

in a very clear structure, and make sure you understand it and give you questions and that kind of stuff. Those are kind of the main books, I guess. But then I'm like, but I read all sorts of other things. I read magazine articles. I read blog posts. I read Facebook updates.

In fact, it's kind of been said that we're writing and reading more than any time in human history. So we're very familiar with reading things. Whether or not it's an actual book. And so the Bible is a book, but it doesn't really fit any of those categories exactly. Well, we could add a few more categories. And maybe just the categories you don't read.

But scholarly stuff. Well, no, no, I'm thinking books can take a narrative format. There's narrative, but they can take the form of fictional narrative. But then there's, you know, historical narrative that can be recreating a fictional narrative within what we would take to be a historical event that took place in history. So everything in the, you know. I mean, my kids are my kids love magic tree house magic tree house series

So it's all base. It's all a real time in history with real people but fake So did I remember my five year old when it hit him these would it actually happened. Yes, he was dead But there was no actual back to the house But then I had to try and explain him but you know Pompeii was real Real city. That was a you know real volcano that you know this kind of thing real. Real city, that was a, you know, real volcano, that, you know, this kind of thing, and, and then it's brain was spun, and it was like, wait, so it's real events with the other people

Jack and Annie and me, or, Jack and Annie are real. But Jack and Annie are not real. And I think he gets it now, but that's complicated, but that's another form of narrative. Then there's straight up, then there's straight up, historical narrative, biography. It's narrative in its form. Right, okay.

But that's reconstructuring historical events, but creating a plot line and showing you the thread between events. So those are all forms of narrative writing, and they can all be different levels of quality. There's a historical nonfiction, which is, let's try to, it's kind of like a biography, but at the time of... That's right. Yeah, it's like, yeah, less interesting, maybe. Yeah, probably less interesting. Just reading some rays of historical events. Yeah. So obviously, the Bible is

dominantly narrative, precisely 43%. That's something nice to graph here. Statistics in front of me in a nice chart. So narrative, it's the most dominant shape that the Bible takes. Narrative meaning there's characters in a setting. Yeah, characters in a setting with a plot line

driving the storyline forward. And that's from page one in the beginning. So there's a narrative unifying the entire this entire collection from beginning to end. Within that narrative are large sections or some books that are entirely poetry. Mm-hmm. Either poetry embedded in narrative or old books of poetry. And then there's also a broader category that you could just call discourse, which it's not storytelling, it's not poetry,

it's just speech. So in the Old Testament, the classic is example is the book of Deuteronomy, which is Moses's speech in Israel. In the New Testament, this would be something like the letters, Paul's letters. But it's tricky because even Paul's letters sometimes have poems in them. Have poems in them, many. And sometimes he's in narrative mode.

Telling about what happened to him or telling in short form the story of Jesus. Okay. So which, I mean, we're familiar with, someone can give a speech. Yeah. And be telling a story within their speech. Yeah, that's right. So using narrative. Yeah. So, one way to put it is that the Bible is a totally unique kind of book on the modern literary scene. Yeah, there isn't a good, not a good analogy. Perfect analogy. Because you can pick it up and it's a book. It's a book. But then you realize it's a small library. But it's a small library of books. But it's not like walking into the library,

which is different books and different authors that have no cohesion. Right. We all work together. Yeah, so in the Bible, we're talking about the first collection, the Old Testament, that has over a thousand year long formation history, a millennium long formation history. 4000 you said? 1000. 1000. Yeah. 1000. Yeah. And the new testament in terms of the events,

and that thousand years is from the events roughly that we can date historically and then to the around 300, 200 BC. Thousand years, that's a long period of formation. For the New Testament, it's shorter because it begins with the events surrounding Jesus of Nazareth and then it goes through to the events of His followers over the next 60 some odd years. So the formation history of the books of the New Testament is like 60 years. So these are two very different collections with very different formation histories. They cohesively read together as one unified epic narrative. So yeah, let's think you're good at analogies.

So what's an analogy for? Well, I was just trying to think of some like fictional, like let's just make a fictional book. Well, I mean, a close equivalent that I think the author was trying to imitate biblical style is something like the Lord of the Rings epic. So it's fictional, but Tolkien was, he structures it in terms of books that don't actually match the physical books. You get the trilogy, it's three books, but it's actually, I think it's six or seven books within those three physical books.

And it feels like you're reading a section from this ancient document, and then there'll be a poem embedded by some characters, and then an epic narrative about here, but you actually you get into it and you realize like Tom Bombadil is a long section that was only a little sub-plot that only brings you back to the main plot to pick it up again. And then he has a similar area, which is what it's a Genesis story.

Yeah, so maybe in this, I don't tend to read this literature like epic fantasy literature, but epic narrative that's weaving a cast of hundreds and thousands over long periods of time, and there's epic stories and very intimate personal stories and poetry woven in. I wonder if there's something similar with like if you chronicle together all of like mythology or something and it can in. You get then all these stories that are probably working together in some way. Yeah.

You know, people have compared, yeah, the biblical canon to like the canon of Homer's works, you know, like the Odyssey or the Iliad. Which again, also refer feature characters that we know were Greek kings and generals and so on, but they've been put into this kind of fantasy world of Greek mythology. They're interacting with the gods and so on. But and all of in the canon of Homer, there's much debate about the origins of these different materials, you know. Yeah. There's whole scholarly fields that people's whole careers are just about, just like a biblical studies. So there are ancient parallels to, at least the kind of book that the Bible is.

Because you would never do that. Today, well, I guess Tolkien tried it. But I mean, that's super rare. Yes. To sit down and try to, I mean, and the thing is, is like it wasn't one author. It was many people working together.

That's right. It's a collection of collections. Even the people who are bringing the final shape of the Hebrew Bible together, the Old Testament or Tenocht. So you have prophets and scholars working in the Second Temple period, like Ezra and Nehemiah, who featured within the Old Testament themselves. But we're told that Ezra was a scholar of the Torah of Moses.

And so, yeah, these are authors whose authorship is actually to curate much older works, and to work them together and weave them together into much longer epic literary works. And that's a different way of authoring, you know, talking just sat down. And over time, the biographer kind of does sometimes. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You just tons of research, right?

Yeah. And then he pulled together all of this work, especially if you're doing a biography of someone who wrote a bunch of stuff. Yeah. Obography is a good example where you have a bunch of historical sources. You do interviews. Yeah. You have pre-existing biograph example where you have a bunch of historical sources. You do interviews. Yeah. You have pre-existing biographies of the topic, person or whatever.

And then you work all that together and do a new, overall cohesive narrative about general MacArthur, something like that. And there's previous histories written. You incorporate their work, you quote them, and so on. And you've also done fresh research, and you do do your own reflection and you tie it all together. Yeah. And that's what was happening during Second Temple Judaism. Correct. Yes.

Yeah. The Bible is taking, taking shape. Each of the books of the Old Testament, in different ways, a different story to be told about its own formation history. Many of them had independent authors and origins, but at some point, these different books were recognized as having a divine sacred quality to them, that when Israelites were gathered in worship, that they, something happened, that they experienced the divine word through these texts. And so these are the texts that kind of rose to the surface. And the very similar story is to be told about the origins of the New Testament,

about the four gospels, the letters of Paul, the letters of Peter, as early Christians gathered on Sundays, and they read the writings of the apostles aloud. Certain ones went viral and became more popular. And other ones that were valuable and were even really amazing, but didn't rise to the top. So one of the earliest post-New Testament documents

that we know of is called the first letter of Clement who was a lead church leader in Rome. And it's an amazing document. It's unbelievable. And it reads like one of Paul's letters. But Clement wasn't a part of that original first kind of layer of circle of the apostles and disciples around Jesus.

It was like a second layer. Yeah, he was, yeah, that's right. And so his letter, while preserved among many circles, didn't rise to the top by really so to speak and it wasn't linked to the apostles and so it wasn't included within the collection of the New Testament. So there is something about these books that there is an existential element to how they became scripture. That once they were written and read as a part of this Jewish and later Christian communities, they were recognized as a part of this grand epic narrative that the books of the Bible

were both together. Yeah, so it's interesting that we're jumping around from just what is the Bible back to how the Bible was formed. In this video in this series, we'll not try to discuss how that was formed. But we do want, we do, we are hatching plan. Yeah, yeah, we're hatching a plan. We're hatching a plan to do that. To do something bigger in the Bible project about like a documentary about the origins of the Bible. But for the sake of this video then,

it's more about that the Bible is a book that is really a library of books that all work together and they all work together by contributing to an epic narrative. An epic unified story. And this unified story, it simplified is a story of Abraham and well I'm jumping through a bunch of stuff. But the story of God in the world, and specifically, and we were working on the Heaven and Earth workbook, you can talk about the story in terms of the union of Heaven and Earth.

Yeah. And that separation. Yeah. Yeah, you can talk about it in a couple of ways. You can talk about it just in historical terms. If we're trying to reconstruct the history of the Bible and the people group that it came from, then you're talking about the story of Israel.

But if you're trying to understand the story of the biblical texts and the message that they have, they're telling a story that has the people of Israel at its center, but it actually has the story of the whole world and all humanity as its main focus. So for the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible, the Tanah, it begins with a set of stories saying, the world was designed for so much more than what we currently experience. What we currently experience as a world that's been vandalized by stupid humans, rebellious

humans who lost a great opportunity through choosing selfishness and sin, which the story defines as humans trying to define right and wrong on their own wisdom, apart from God's wisdom. And so the world's in a bad state, and human history has gone off the tracks. What is God going to do about it? He starts a conversation with a guy named Abraham. And thus begins, that's on page 12 of the Bible. Chapter 12, and that's the rest of the Old Testament becomes a story of the family of Abraham.

But all within that larger story of what is God going to do to rescue the world from itself? But to be fair, the rest of the story is about the family of Abraham and the story is produced by the family of Abraham. Yep. And as a way for them to understand their identity. Yeah, their role in the world, their history, and their God. So it wasn't like some other bibliographer coming back and saying, let me tell the story of this, the Abraham's family, it was actually produced over time within there. That's right. And by significant individuals within their history,

namely, these figures called the prophets. So individuals who had a very unique, very unique live connection to their God, their Israel. And when they looked out at human history, when they looked at their own people's history, they saw history in a way that other people didn't. And they saw God's hand at work weaving Israel's history as a part of a bigger picture to rescue the whole world. And so the claim of these documents is that this history of Israel is a theological history that comes from these figures called the Prophet, Israelite Prophet. Moses starting with Moses and then the chain goes on down through all the famous ones. Elijah, Nathan.

Gad, holda, all these prophets and prophetesses. So the story of Israel essentially is how is God going to save the world through this family? That's the storyline of the Old Testament. And it gets complicated. They go into slavery, so God rescues them. They want, God makes a covenant with them. They go into the Promised Land. They get kings who are mostly bad. But there's one good king, and one good king is really important, David. Because God says it's actually through the king from the line of David that his rescue for the whole world is going to come. You know what I'd be good at analogy is our friend Scott Erickson.

I don't know how well you know Scott Erickson. The Quinten. Yeah. Scott the painter. Yeah. He did this show. It's got the painter. Yeah. He did this show. It's kind of one man's show. Where he's telling a story, a personal story, but while he's doing it, he's at Times

Painting and talking to you. At times he's playing video. That is doing something. At times he's reading a poem. And then times he's going back to a story. So it's a eclectic group of types of communication that he always together. By the end, you don't feel like you just watch some random,

you know, you just watch a movie. You didn't watch a movie. You didn't watch a guy paint. You didn't watch a guy read poetry or do stand-up comedy, but he did tell jokes. So it's just this mash-up of all these different things. Different media. Different types of media.

Different types of media. But also you don't go away and go, man, that was just a random smattering of things. You go away going, wow, that all worked together to communicate something really significant. Not only was it a significant in meaning, but it was a unified story. Like he was telling a story from beginning to end about belonging. And I think that's maybe a good analogy for what the Bible's doing.

Yeah, yeah, that is a good analogy. I mean, just maybe put some people ideas or whatever. I think John and I both hold a historic Orthodox view about the inspiration of the Bible as a divine and human word. But I think what for us, a concern and what's driving this is for many people that believe somehow is fostered this other belief that the actual history

of the Bible, it's complex manuscript history and the very complex history of authorship and so on, that somehow that becomes a threat or a scandal to certain people's view of the Bible as a divine word. And then people have to manufacture all of this energy and books and apologetic literature to defend a view of the Bible as if it fell out of heaven and has hasn't been touched by history. And boy, I just think we're really setting up people for a fall when we raise children and form people in church communities with that view of the Bible. And so what we're trying to do, yeah, is orient people to what it is, which is this

epic narrative that speaks through so many different kinds of media. I really like that analogy. And I think that you'd have to take it further and say it wasn't a one-man show. That's right. Sorry, this is why I got on that tangent. It's because in a way, that is my theological view of the Bible, is that it was the spirit of God. Yeah, the spirit of God is the one man's show. Working came through many, many different people in a long process to bring these books into existence and as a unified collection.

And so that would be the role of Scott. Right. And so yeah, to flesh the analogy out, it would be Scott working with or overseeing a bunch of individual artists who work through their different media. But over time, and those people don't necessarily meet each other. Yeah, that's right. But they know of each other's work.

Because Scott would have to live for over a millennium. Yeah, and Scott would do it over a millennium. Scott would start in 2016 and then somehow survive for many years and then finish this project in about 3,100. And then have all of these different types of media together. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That's, yeah, that's a good analogy. That's a good analogy. That's a good analogy. And what other book do you read on an average day that's like that? I mean, that's just a very unique kind of book. The Bible as an art project. A metaphor that we're talking about. Yeah, here. And this is where I truly, even though I'm a passer in a Bible nerd, I love to read the

Bible. I read it in my spare time as much as possible, and all about it. But I don't for a second think that that's where everybody's at. It's hard to read. Oh, it's an ancient art project. Because it's an ancient divine, divinely inspired.

Yeah, totally. And it's rooted in history and historical events, and there's an enormous amount of debate about how that works out. But it is rooted. When I say historical events, and there's an enormous amount of debate about how that works out. But it is rooted. When I say our project, I don't want someone, also, I realize someone's going to go like, oh, what a hippie, do-age, and all that.

Dude, well, okay, but no, let's pause here. So for me, one of the most exciting, igniting things to my imagination. I've been a Christian for about a year, and I was sitting in a, I signed up for classes at a local Christian university and I'm taking my first Bible classes from a teacher, Professor named Ray Lubek, and his whole deal is Christians need to learn how to read the Old Testament, like Jewish people read it, and as a work of high literary and theological art, and the books of all the books of the Hebrew Bible and New Testament are, as I've called it, the work of literary. Well, that's my friend, Andy, who calls it as the work of literary ninjas.

And so, truly, the literary... Why do you like the word ninja? Well, I think you're just thinking of somebody who's extremely nimble and sophisticated. Yeah. Nothing's unintentional. Right. Every movement is calculated. Yeah. He even knew how to break that guy's neck. Yeah. All of a sudden. He barely moved. Yeah. The Hebrew Bible is an extremely sophisticated piece of ancient literary art. I think that's what that is. That is making, it has a theological message, but it's doing it through this incredibly nuanced literary medium.

Yeah. And to me that just exploded my brain. And then I've sent me on whatever, when was that, that was three? At least I was almost 20 years ago. And I still feel like I'm scratching the surface of my- Oh, that was like 90. It was 96, I signed up for classes. Oh, what?

It was almost 20. No, I was 20. And yeah, I'm still so boggled by the sophistication of the literary art of the Bible, that I... There's so much... It's literary genius. It's literary genius. I mean, we're talking Tolstoy and Dostoevsky and, you know, Steinbeck type of level here.

But it's from an ancient culture, which is what makes it hard. I think those two things together make it hard for us to engage. Yeah, it's hard to appreciate literary genius, even when it's in your own culture. Yeah, it's a lot to chew. Yep. Chew on. Chew on. Bite off.

Bite off. But this is an ancient culture that thinks in different ways that I think. Written in a different language. Written in a different language. And so, yeah, double whammy. And it's our conviction that that's the vehicle that God has chosen to speak to his people throughout history. And you just got to stick that in your pipe and smoke it. So to speak, you just got to chew on that one. But that is that's certainly how Jesus

viewed the scriptures. Okay. So we're talking about how sophisticated the Bible is. It's literary genius. It's also an ancient document. This could get really intimidating for people. You know, it's kind of like saying, in order to be a Christian, you have to be a food connoisseur or a movie critic. It's a high bar.

Well, okay, yeah. Yes, I hear that. But once again, we're back to, but the Bible didn't fall out of heaven, and then say, you all have to become movie critics to understand who God is. The Bible emerged from a living historical people group that was a worshiping community, people of Israel and then the early Christians. So the history of the Bible is very much the history of God's people and people didn't encounter the Bible in a vacuum. They encountered it as a part of a vibrant

thriving religious community where you're learning about God not only through these texts, but through your parents and your friends and your family. So I just want to I want to not make this sophistication of the Bible some kind of barrier to just be like, you have to know everything, to just be a Christian. No, you have to know the story about Jesus and want to love God and love your neighbor. But maturing and growing as a follower of Jesus means to learn about the Bible and how to read it better, at least.

Right. Right. Well, it can feel daunting to say that you would benefit from by appreciating literary art. I can feel very daunting people. But I think also that the way literature works is kind of hardwired in our brain. Yeah, especially narrative. Yeah, especially narrative. Yeah, especially narrative. Like this is how we think. Yeah.

It's just really, really well crafted. Yeah. Narratives and stories. And the way we tell each other's stories and the way we communicate like this, yeah, yeah. You know, a good turn of phrase is in a way poetry. And while we don't all go away and write and read poetry

and really soak it up, we all can appreciate how language can be poetic. And then also have so much more meaning and importance in daily life. So I mean, I feel like it's basic to being human as appreciating language. That's right. Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, it's a very intentional, beautiful form of communication, storytelling, poetry. Yeah. And so the Bible is that. And so really what, it's just interesting that since the Bible is at the center of Christian experience, then being a person who appreciates literature that since the Bible is at the center of Christian experience, then being a person who appreciates literature should be at the center of the Christian experience.

I think not the center. Jesus should be in the center. Yeah, no, I was actually about to say, I think Jesus is the center of Christian existence. And then the Bible is an indispensable way that we encounter Jesus through the Spirit speaking through the Scriptures to people. The Bible has a very close relationship to Jesus.

Jesus is the center and the Bible is the way that we encounter that center. One of the primary ways, I think there are other ways, but Protestants have been debating about that for centuries. I get really excited when we talk about being people of the book and being how important this book is and how, you know, it could turn people off me like, oh man, I gotta be an English major now in order to be a Christian. Yeah. Not even an English major, like a Hebrew scholar, but which is obviously not true.

Which is not true. No. But it does mean growing in my ability and appreciation of literature. Yeah, at least of biblical literature. But that excites me and not because I'm not a literature guy. I haven't read Shakespeare except for like the one or two things I've had to read. Yeah.

I don't, I'm not like a literary geek. Yeah. But it excites me to think about, like that will help me understand my faith more. I think there's a way to make that inspirational. You know, okay, here's maybe an angle. I forget what essay this was in by CS Lewis, but remember reading it early on. We're talking about the importance of literature in a classical education. It's something about through literature, I can live life through the eyes of others, and

I can see the world through the eyes of other people's stories and cultures. This is one of the great values of literature. It's someone's experience, another people group, sort of another person's experience, story, or poem that invites me into their way of seeing the world. And that's precisely what the Bible's doing. It's trying to invite us into an alternate view of the world and an alternate view of who we are and of human history and of what's most important.

And it does it through this well crafted piece of literature. That's the what literature does to you. And so in that sense, I agree with you. It is exciting. Yeah. So I, that's exciting the same way that like, and maybe there's just Portland culture, but it's like, it's like, oh man, I'm really,

I'm really into beer now. Yeah. So what are you gonna do? Yeah. You're gonna like get the home brew kit. Yeah. You're gonna learn about all the ingredients, you're gonna mess around, and you're gonna just geek out, and you're gonna go on brew tours, and you're gonna like,

I mean, you're just gonna dive in deep. Yeah. You're gonna geek out. And that's even quite broad. I mean, Portland is host to so many niche subculture. Right, you're gonna get really good at a specific IPA or something. Oh, no, I'm talking about like salt. Have you been to the salt store? Oh. Yeah.

Where they have hundreds of different kinds of salt. No, I haven't been to the salt store. All over the planet, different tastes, different purposes, and you buy these tiny little pouches of salt for a lot of money to put in certain recipes. Yeah, okay, sorry. Right. Totally exactly. Like I'm gonna if I'm gonna season my food, I'm gonna do it right. I'm going all in. Yeah, I've been joking about how we need like a a a a tauts like a handcrafted artisanal tauts, tauts stand. But yeah, so like, but there's something,

there's something exciting about saying like, not only am I gonna care about this, but I think if I dive in as deep as possible, this thing will create a lot of meaning for my life. And there's a spirit of that in Portland. And yeah, you're not, I mean, that's fun to learn about salts and like get really good at knowing about your salts. Yeah. But this is not going to bring you

like true meaning. Yeah. I mean, it'll, that's good hobby, what, you know, possibly. But, um, but there's something about diving in about, about this book and appreciating the, the artistry of the book and, and geeking out about it that you don't have to do that to be a Christian. Like, you don't have to go all in. Right. But it's so much more connected to finding meaning, because that's all it's interested in. Yeah, that's right. About the meaning.

Human flourishing and meaning that human existence. To God and the meaning of human existence. To God and the divine and everything. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Okay, so what we're saying is we both feel that personally, that's already infused a lot of what we're doing in the Bible project.

And so that, at different levels, like you've devoted your life the last 20 years, geeking out at like level 10 sure and sure and I Brought and now I'm even to my happy little world and I'm in here crawling around like scratching out things in that world and And then there will be other people who might listen to a podcast or they might go to a class or my different things

There's a lot of different kinds of levels, but like Mm-hmm Because I'm not I don't think I'm ever gonna I'm not gonna learn Hebrew. No, I think it's too late in my life to try to Yeah, yeah, I don't I don't recommend it and at the same time I don't not everybody is gonna read the 100 great modern classics. Like that, you know, it's just, it's not realistic for most people, but there are some... But that doesn't mean you shouldn't pick up a classic

and straight up. Yeah, Steinbeck's East of Eden, arguably one of the most important, important literary works of the last 100 years. And it'll just blow and, by the way, it's all about Genesis chapter four. The whole story is spun out of Genesis chapter four. So that's a great example of the legacy of the literary art of the Bible living on in one of the great Western literary classics. So yeah, so how do we- Maybe there could be something like that. I don't know if it's that like Portland hipster sounding,

but like, but about like, what is the Bible slash, like should I care? And should I, or I don't know. Yeah, I think maybe it doesn't fit. Well, what is, yeah, I, no, I agree. I think- Because arguably you could say yeah I'm gonna be a Christian, but the Bible. I don't really need it. Yeah, like I'm not I'm not gonna read it

Yeah, I might pretend I do just to get some people off my back But but my Christian experience is connected to yeah Praying and yeah praying or my participation in a church community. Yeah, the sacraments of the church, the relationships I have there, and I have an appreciation for scripture. Yeah. You know, and every once in a while, I might enjoy being read at a wedding or a mass or service or whatever, but I'm not going to really geek out about this book, and I'm okay with that. And I'm also really highly suspicious

of other people who do, because it's usually like, it's usually for lane purposes. Yeah, you feel like you're being sold something. So I don't know, I just, I'd be interested if we couldn't get that person to go, man, maybe I'd be interested if we couldn't get that person to go, man, maybe, maybe I should like, instead of, I was gonna geek out about fly fishing in this next season of my life.

But maybe I'll put some of that geekery towards the Bible. Yes, yeah, it's a way of saying it in the same way that many people turn to reading a literature to enrich their life. Yeah. It's the same thing. It's saying this is a remarkable piece of literature. I think it does more above and beyond your normal piece of literature, but it's not less than a piece of amazing literature. It could feel that way at times because it's written in a different language. And so you'll read parts of the Bible and it'll be like, oh, this is boring. But it's all about your expectations that you come with.

Most people, if they've been introduced to the Bible, it's been through their childhood and it's through being presented versions of the biblical stories that are nowhere near as brilliant as the actual. Yeah, and that's dumb down. That's the problem of whatever. Yeah, that's true. I mean, dumb down for... And whitewashed, like with the scandalous parts all removed.

Yeah. You know, for kids. They're turned into children's literature. For kids. The Bible is not children's. Or, but also for adults just to keep it simple. That's right. Like, yeah.

Renew some of the complexity. That's right. And so then once somebody knows the story, then they come to the actual biblical account and they assume they already know what to expect from it. But if my expectation coming is to a narrative in the Bible that, man, there's so much more going on here than I realize. There's a brilliant mind under here, and I'm going to read and reread and sink and ponder because somebody amazing and brilliant is trying to talk to me here.

And that will make for a completely different kind of experience in reading the story about David, for example. Can we talk about kids for a second? Because we both have young kids. Yes. And I think in evangelical Christian culture, there's this assumption that when your kids are really young, like one of the most important things you can do is educate them with Bible stories.

Yeah, no. That's really, really important because that's when their minds are most malleable. And so if they're going to not only learn something well, I mean like when you're gonna learn a language, you're gonna learn most things like your brains developing. So there's that argument, but then also it's just it's easier to convince someone of the value of something when they've got that in their background. No, when they're that young. Oh, oh, yeah.

Like you can just like we could tell our kids like this is important. And they'll be like, oh yeah, sure, of course, that's important. Because you're my dad. Yeah. So, but the problem, but we've identified this other problem, which is if you try to take the Bible and turn it into kids' material, you generally have to shave off the edges a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.

Dumb it down a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because one, part of it's not appropriate for kids. But two, it's too sophisticated for kids, not understanding, and many levels. Yeah. And so, so I don't know, there's this tension here then, because if you do that, then you're gonna have a kid grow up

and go, yeah, the Bible, that's that really childish, kind of boring. Yeah, I already get it. Peace of literature that I've been told before and it's boring. And it's because you probably were given a much more digestible version, which, then the real thing. Yeah. Yeah.

But then the other route is you just say, hey, son, this is too sophisticated for you. Like come back to me when you're older and then we'll open up scriptures. And then, you know, well, you missed out a great opportunity to help your kids experience God's Word in a time where their brains are developing in a very important way. This obviously, a lot of people are gonna have very differing and deep convictions

about how to go at that, so I don't claim. And I'm young, dad, my kids are little, so we're... At this point, what I'm young dad, my kids are little, so we're at this point what I'm trying to do is get the story of the stories about Jesus in front of my kids as much as possible. If anything, I mean I know the no-and-the-ark and Moses and so on and so it's very important, I agree, but what actually I care about more is that the story is about Jesus' character and his teachings and how he treated people, that that's like the bedrock of their childhood Bible imagination. And then from there, personally,

I'm just floating real high over the biblical story with my kids and it's great to have the Bible Project videos to do that. And but I feel like I'm just now starting to engage and it's great to have the Bible Project videos to do that. But I feel like I'm just now starting to engage my five-year-old on some of the bigger storyline of the Bible. My biggest fear is that there's gonna be all this stuff that I kinda help him fix in his mind.

And then I'm later gonna have to do some unlearning to help him learn the next layer of whatever, you know, I think that to me that's the challenge is encountering the flood story is just not helpful if all you get is that story by itself. Because then usually it's a white wash story that's just like, no, obey God and built a boat. So you go build a boat too? I don't know, you know, but when it fits into the epic, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, like that's all crucial, crucial for how that story's told. And that's, I don't know, it's challenging.

So right now I'm sticking with Jesus and the overall biblical story of like God loves the world, the world screwed up, but God wants to rescue it. And Jesus was key to that. That's it for this episode. We're going to continue this conversation and walk through the structure of the Bible, the Old Testament, the New Testament, and look at every single book and how it contributes to this story.

It's going to be a really great informative discussion. It gives you a bird's eye view of the composition of this book. In the meantime, say hi to us, we're on Facebook, Facebook.com slash the Bible Project. And our videos are free, and they're on YouTube, youtube.com slash the Bible Project. We're also making print resources, and all of that you could find on our website, thebiboproject.com. If you're enjoying this podcast, you can give a review on iTunes that helps a lot in our exposure, and you can share it with your friends. Thanks for being a part of this with us.

you