BibleProject - The Holy Spirit Part 1: Spirit of the Old Testament vs. The Spirit of Christianity

Episode Date: February 24, 2017

The Holy Spirit is a tough subject in Christianity. It seems everyone has their own experiences of how the Spirit works. Or doesn’t. Tim and Jon talk a little bit about their own Holy Spirit experiences growing up. Jon grew up in a Baptist church where the Holy Spirit was largely theoretical. Tim grew up with the opposite experiences in a community that got really dramatic about the Holy Spirit. The guys also talk about what the ancient Hebrews believed about the Holy Spirit and the differences between their ancient beliefs and the modern Western view. To the Hebrews, the Holy Spirit was the essential, mystical force of life. An all encompassing energy that created the world and kept creating the world over and over, right before their eyes. For Hebrews, creation and sustaining the creation were not two separate ideas. Tim and Jon reflect on what it might look like if we adopted a similar worldview the ancients had. How it might invite us to become re-enchanted with creation. That we would begin to see God’s personal presence animating and energizing all of the world. Music credits: Defender (instrumental) by rosasharn.bandcamp.com Look Back In by Moby. album 18. Chord Sounds by Moby. album Every Day.

Hey, this is Cooper at Bible Project. I produce the podcast in Classroom. We've been exploring a theme called the City, and it's a pretty big theme. So we decided to do two separate Q and R episodes about it. We're currently taking questions for the second Q and R and we'd love to hear from you. Just record your question by July 21st

and send it to us at infoatbiboproject.com. Let us know your name and where you're from, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds and please transcribe your question when you email it in, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds, and please transcribe your question when you email it in. That's a huge help to our team. We're excited to hear from you. Here's the episode.

This is John from The Bible Project. Today's episode is the first in our series on the Holy Spirit. We've got a new video on the Holy Spirit coming out soon, and this conversation helped us prepare for that. This is one of those things in the Christian faith where it's almost impossible for us to come to talking about the Spirit with the blank slate. The role of the Holy Spirit in Christianity today

differs from tradition to tradition. Tim and I focus on what the ancients believed about the Spirit. Reading the Bible is always a cross-cultural experience. We need to check our worldview categories at the door and understand what they meant. And we discuss what our worldview might look like if we think of the spirit the way they did. It invites us to almost have a kind of a re-enchanted view of creation. Here we go. So we're getting ready to begin a video, Bible project video about the spirit of God, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, this is one of those things in the Christian faith where it's almost impossible for us to come to talking about the spirit with a blank slate.

Most people come with pre-made categories or experiences with Christians or church communities that have a lot to say about the spirit. Yeah. And so, one of the most difficult things to do is to come to back to the Scriptures and expect to hear something new, because we kind of think we may be already know. There's something about the Charismatics, and the Paranocostles, and baptism of the spirit. That's a big thing. But truly, discovering what the Bible is actually saying about the Spirit. For me personally has been one of the most surprising, mind-opening life-transforming things in the last number of years. I really, really love this theme.

It's going to be hard for me to distill it all into one video. Personally. Should we talk about what our paradigms were growing up, just to get that on the table or not helpful? Should we pretend we have no paradigms? Well actually, I think it might be helpful because you're, but our growing up experiences are interactions with church about the spirit are really different. And that probably represents the spectrum of most people, of people who might be listening to this.

So yeah, why don't you talk about? Well mine's pretty straightforward. My church tradition came from Baptist roots. It was a non-denominational church, but basically it's sensational. Is that what it is? Sensational. Sensational. Sensationalists. Yeah. You're a sensationist. The technical term meaning. Meaning the Holy Spirit doesn't really do anything nowadays. Right? I don't know. That's probably the whole thing. Well, that's not technically it. That view sees the Holy Spirit as primarily working through the scriptures and God's people speaking truth into each other's lives based on the scriptures.

Yeah, and the experiential presence of Jesus and worship and so on. Sure, but more so. But the miraculous stuff that happens. Sure. Miraculous powers. And even just something, you know, experiences that might seem a little more on the Yeah, so mystical or visionary side.

The prophecy and those kind of things. Right. They are not needed anymore, so those will happen. And yeah, there was this definite, there's a belief, the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity and is super important. I think there was always confusion for me what the difference between Jesus living in you and the Holy Spirit living in you was, but we would talk about both of those things. The Holy Spirit helps you, but the Holy Spirit was always very clear.

The Holy Spirit will never tell you something that's not in the Bible already. Yeah, sure. Right? Like, sure. Because there was this, I think there was a bit of a fear that you could use the Holy Spirit to do things that were unorthodox. Sure. So you have to have the seatbelt of... Yeah, you confuse your own imagination with the Holy Spirit. For the Holy Spirit.

Yeah, so very downplayed, didn't talk about the Holy Spirit a lot. That was my experience. That was your experience. My experience growing up, our family attended church and it was mostly in the charismatic or Pentecostal tradition. So four-square was the kind of church our family attended for most of my growing up. Yeah, so from a young age, my memories about what Sunday gatherings are were very energetic and action-packed with people yelling out in the worship gatherings and unknown languages. And sometimes then somebody would yell out what they thought that person said, I'm just a little kid doing all this in.

People coming up to the front for prayer and then falling over. And there's a whole crew of people who would come for women who like fell over while they were praying. And you know, if they were wearing dresses. Well yeah, there'd always be someone to catch them, but they were wearing dresses. There was a whole crew of people who would come with these cloths and lay these cloths over their legs in case they're dress it falling up

Anyway, so that I don't know like just as a little kid and that was I was like, yeah, that's just this is what Christianity is yeah So we had a church like that down the street and Their youth group. I knew the kids of their youth group and they were a little bit more punk rock than us. That youth group was. Yeah. Some cool kids. Yeah. And I remember we started this Bible study in high school, like in the cafeteria. I don't remember. It's like we all got excused from class at some point to do this Bible. I don't remember how this even worked. But one time, they let it and did like a slaying in the spirit thing. And it was the first time I had experienced that first hand.

And I was really uncomfortable. Yeah, I was a member of the band. Yes. Well, so that's what's interesting for me too, even though my earliest memories of church were that kind of thing when I got older, like junior high. I didn't like it.

I thought it was very weird. And I remember, I didn't like the youth group. I thought it was stupid. I never went. But one event I went to and there was like a Holy Spirit time where they were inviting people who hadn't been, quote, baptized in the Spirit. And so they just started praying and then somebody came up and asked me if I'd received the spirit.

What did that mean to you at that point? Had I had one of those experiences that the people did up front on Sundays, and I was like, no. And then they asked if they could pray for me and I was kind of staying out of fish and then they started to do it anyway Put their hands in my head applying pressure

Huh, we're trying to push me. Oh really over and I was having none of it So you're like I'm a skateboarder. I have really good balance Yeah, so all that just say and then after that I just hate to go into church I start sneaking out of my room of mysteriously disappeared in my friend's house on Yeah, so all that to say, and then after that I just hated going to church. I started sneaking out of my room, a mysteriously disappeared in my friend's house on Saturday nights, so that I wouldn't have to go to church on Sundays, and my parents finally picked their battles and quit forcing me to go. So when I became a Christian through the Ministry of Skate Church, later, the church community I became a part of was more like what you grew up in, John.

I've had to sort through my baggage because I realize I've had to chip on my shoulder against that upbringing and some of it is just prideful. And so I've had to like what part of you know is my suspicion of that? Is there anything that's legitimate? How much is it I'm just reacting against my childhood? And I need to get over it. And so that's why for me this rediscovery of the spirit over the last maybe six years or so, starting really it just started with a sermon series that I put together on the spirit because I was like, well, I'm just going to go at this, you know, and as an adult with new learning and categories. And so we kind of come from different places. Your suspicions arise from the slaying and the spirit kind of stuff. And my suspicions arise from this almost ignoring the spirit.

And so my rebellion would be like, come on, let's get mystical. So the spirit's gotta be doing something way more interesting than I can imagine. That's interesting. Yeah. But I'm such, I think the problem is, is I've learned I've learned however I've learned this I live in my head Like I live life

thinking Not feeling Not experiencing what's happening the moment. I'm trying to experiment your saying my temperament Yeah, and I've been trying to fix this over the last couple years. It's just what I've learned Yeah, and so it's really hard when I'm worshiping, singing songs, or anything to have something that feels mystical, feels like the spirit. Right.

I'm always just, everything's just like a rational thought. Mm-hmm. Well, sure. So yeah, I hope maybe by the time we finish this conversation, you could have some different categories for that. Cool, because that's been one of the areas where the use of the word and the concept of God's spirit and the Bible, I think, has some surprising things to say.

So those categories. So you know me, good Bible trivia. You use it as a party at a party this Friday night where in the story of the Bible does this spirit appear for the very first time. It's staged already, because I decided to see you look at the notes. I do.

I would have known this. You would have known this already. Probably most spirit of God hovered over the waters. Yeah, not only page one, but the second sentence of the Bible. The spirit appears in the center. Hovering over waters. Yeah, so this is such a great example. We'll camp out on this for a little bit.

Because right here, there's so much unlearning you have to do I think to then relearn what's what's happening here in the opening versus the Bible. So here's the first three verses of the Bible. In the beginning God created the the skies the skies and the land. Now the land was wild and waste. Yeah, tofu, tofu, I remember that from Ray. Yeah, darkness was over the surface of the deep abyss and the spirit of God was hovering over the waters and God said, let there be light and there light, and on goes the sequence of God speaking. So, whatever you view of Genesis 1 is, it begins with the summary statement, God creates all that is, what's up there and what's down here. And then the focus of the story is that

things began with what's down here being wild and waste, darkness. And then in the middle of that darkness and wild waste is God's spirit hovering there. So you were going to say them. Yeah, might be a tangent. But the earth's there. So land is there. It's waste in some way, foremost and void. What's the Hebrew, Vohu? Tohu, Vahu of Vohu. Yeah, which is cool. Yeah, it's great. Tohu of Vohu.

A little ride. A little ride. Yeah. Or it's a ride, I guess. So waste and wild. So it kept that English. So something's there. It's waste and wild. And the spirit of God is there, hovering over the waters.

What am I supposed to have in my mind? Am I supposed to have just like a desert landscape and some seas? Yeah, right. Well, there's two things. One, and it depends on how you interpret the first sentence of the Bible, whether it's a summary statement of like a title almost for all that follows, or if it's actually the first main action God making everything. I think the first view is more likely that it's a summary title. So that the story actually begins in the second sentence. Now the land was Tohuvavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavavava and now God's going to make something. It begins with something. The land. It begins with the land, yeah. And the land is in a form of chaotic disorder.

And it's very difficult for us to not impose our modern view of the universe or Big Bang theory. I mean, we don't really even have a concept. We have a theoretical concept of nothing. No, nothing. Like space, maybe. Yeah. Even space is something. But even space is within the framework of the space time continuum.

Yeah. So, but the concept of something and nothing, we think of existence and creation as something coming into physical existence, but before which there was nothing. And that's not the biblical author's framework at all. They didn't have a perspective of, oh, at one point there was nothing. Correct. Yeah, that's a concept. It's far back as you could go. Well, it was here.

It was just waste and what? It was to the level. Yeah, yeah. So for the author of Genesis 1, and this is consistent with the view of creation and the Psalms and Proverbs and Job, is that creation begins with a state of disorder and chaotic disorder. And what creation is is God bringing order, beauty, purpose, meaning, a garden out of the chaos.

That's Genesis 1. And so who is there hovering in the midst of the dark chaotic wilderness? Oh, sorry, you asked what's the picture you're supposed to have in your head. So it's the paradox of images, I think on purpose. Tohuva-vohu is vocabulary used to describe the empty desert wasteland. So who, a vohu? Tohuvavohu. Vavo-hu. Yep. Okay.

Yeah. It's vocabulary used elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible to describe wilderness, empty, uninhabitable wilderness. But then, right, in the next line, its darkness was over the surface of the deep abyss of the waters. So it's a desert water? It's right. It's a watery desert, which is a contradiction

on the literal level, but on the image, on an image-driven level, it makes perfect sense. The wilderness is uninhabitable, un-cultivated. Spend only is it wilderness that you can't survive in, because it's barren land. It's also the chaotic seas where you will get destroyed by sea monsters. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, there are two kinds of spaces in the imagination of the Hebrew Bible that are dangerous, chaotic, untamable.

One's the wilderness. And for for Israelites we're talking about the huge stretch of desert between Israel and the Persian Gulf. Just by the compass is the crow flies between Jerusalem and the Persian Gulf is a gigantic desert. It's the northern edge of the Saudi Arabian Peninsula. It's just sandy desert. Yeah, you're not going to survive out there. No, it's Tohubabuhu. You're not ever going to try and I mean Las Vegas. Yeah, well casinos there.

Yeah, now we can put casinos in the middle of Tohubabuhu, but back then that was unimaginable. So there's that, and then the other most untambleable space is of course the ocean, which we still don't really have a handle on. I guess we can build oil rigs out there. But for them, you go out in the ocean, and it's dangerous. You can kill by the waters, the storms. And then, let's not get into this, because it's not really part of the spirit,

but in the other creation, that Psalms that we talk about. Psalm 74 depicts that, yeah, that unseed dragon. As the seven headed seed dragon. That God has to tame. That God has to slay. that Psalms that we're talking about. Psalm 74 depicts that, yeah, that un- Yeah, that un- Seed Dragon. As the seven-headed Seed Dragon. That God has the team. That God has the sleigh.

Or sleigh while he creates. Crush the head of the Seed Dragon. Seed Dragon. Yeah, and that's tapping into, yeah, ancient New History and mythological imagery. Yeah, so not only can you get, yeah, by the waves and the wind, but there are Seed Dragons out there too.

Totally. So, Genesis 1, within that world view, that cultural world view depicts the story of creation beginning in empty, untamable disorder. I love that there's a paradox there. There's this like, the water and the desert. Yeah, there's this desert,

waste-and-wild, to hu-hu-hu-hu, but it's water. Watery desert, yeah. There's this desert, waste a while, to Hulu Hulu, but it's water, watery desert. Yes. So it raises the question, okay, so God's gonna create sky and land in order out of this desert waste land, ocean depth, how? How? And the first Positive sign it's kind of like a little bit like a mountain top and then to ski jumps So in the beginning God created Sky in the land. Yay, we love it, but it's

Toe va-vohoo and darkness over the surface and you're like, oh, no, what's going on? Don't talk to him. And then who's there to bring the created order out of the chaos Spirit of God hovering in the midst of the dark untamable chaos So what's what's that about? So two things one is the Greek and Hebrew vocabulary here Genesis ones in Hebrew And it's a word you have to kind of clear your throat, almost spit a little bit when you say it. Ruhach. Ruhach. Ruhach. We have these little covers in front

of the microphones so we don't spit on them. But it's kind of like those covers spit on it a little bit. And then- Nice and moist. And then in Greek, the first Jewish translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek, called the Septuagint, they translated Ruaq with the Greek word Numa, which is the same root word from which we get like pneumatic drills and that kind of thing. So Rue Achennuma and the overlap in meaning. Numa Thorax is when your lungs collapse. Whoa, I know that because it's happened.

It's happened to you. That's right. Tell me that story once. Numa. Numa. Also if you misspell it, it turns into a collection of videos by Rob Bell. Numa. No, that's right. That's right.

So an exercise I do when I'm teaching to help kind of get our minds around what Ruaq means and Greek and Hebrew is to have people put their hand in front of their mouth. Have you ever been around when I'd done this before? I don't know. I have people put their hand in front of their mouth. Have you ever been around when I'd done this before? I don't know. I have people put their hand in front of their mouth and just say something like hello. Hello. Hello. If you're listening to the podcast, put your hand in front of your mouth.

Say hello. And you feel something on your fingers, of course. In English, the word we have for that is breath. In Hebrew, the word for that is ruch. So ruch is, it's first and most basic meaning throughout the Hebrew Bible is breath. There's loads of uses, I've just kind of picked out a handful in the notes here. But so in Genesis 2, this is significant, but God breathes the ruach into the humans. Does he rock the ruach into the humans? No, it's a different. I forget that what's that verb in gen it's it's cool

Actually, it's a cool verb in genesis, too I guess Napa Yeah, na fach na fach Doesn't it just sounds like a breathing word na fach like if you have a snoring problem Yeah That's right. Like if you have a snoring problem. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Um, so, or, or Job, uh, in chapter 27, he talks about the Ruaq of God and my nostrils. Um, now we'll talk about why he calls it God's Ruaq and his nostrils, the Degrees in

and out, but it's Ruaq. It, what he breathes in and out, but it's Ruaq. What he breathes in and out is Ruaq. What is the other one? Naraq or whatever, the snoring one. Oh, that's a verb to breathe out, but it's a different word completely. Yeah, so that's the act between those two. Well, Yeah, so that's the act between those. Well, Nafach is the act of breathing in and out. Ruaach is what it is, you're breathing in and out. Okay, so we don't have two different words for that, but in Hebrew there's two different ways.

Oh, we have, you're right, we have breathe and breath. Those are related in English, not in Hebrew. Breathe and breath. Yep, there are two different words technically. Technically, but they're from the same root. Yeah, yeah, not in Hebrew. Breathe in breath. Yep. The related is two different words technically. Technically, but they're from the same root. Yeah. Yeah, not in Hebrew. Yeah, in Hebrew you na'fach.

You na'fach. As a root. And you have a root. And the thing that you na'fach is your ruach. Yeah. Yeah, there's no verb. You can't rootach. You na'fach.

Ruach. You breathe a breath. That's nafak, rawak. You breathe breath. That's right. Actually, breathe air. Well, in English, that's how we say it. Yeah. And you have breath. We say you have breath.

Your breath smells bad. Your breath? Something I hear a lot from my wife. Yeah, it's a noun. It's the thing. The thing, the air coming out of your mouth, breath. The air coming out of you, we call breath. But coming in, we call it air coming out of your mouth. The air coming out of you we call breath. But coming in.

Oh that's interesting. We call it yes. Is it quite thought about that? And he drew, is it? Roch. Both ways. Roch. Roch in, rock out.

Roch in, rock out. Ha ha. Yeah, I've never thought about that. Roch out. That's taken in English, but that's it. Yep, that's exactly right. OK, so breath. So here's something else interesting about Rulach. That's the first most basic meaning.

Another interesting thing, we don't have windows in our recording room, but if you were to look out the window and you were to see trees out in your front yard or something and they were moving. But you can't see anything moving them. They're just like they're dancing. We are English word to describe what it is that's moving the trees. Wind is wind. In Hebrew you would call that the Ruaach. Ruaach. It's the Ruaach moving the trees. So Ruaach, the common denominator between the Ruaach. Ruaach. It's the Ruaach moving the trees. So Ruaach, the common denominator between the Ruaach coming in and out of you and the Ruaach moving the trees, it's it animates things. Is it, yes, it animates things and it's invisible.

You cannot see what it is. You can't see your breath. Unless it's really cold. Unless it's really cold. This is really cold. And you can't see the wind, but and it's connected with energy and power and animation. So we're talking about it in visible energy that animates things that makes them move. And so think about it in English,

we have totally disassociated the thing that animates the trees with the thing that animates me. But in Hebrew, it's the same thing. And so that then is grounded in a deeper level, a deeper idea that's underneath both of those, namely, where did I get my root walk? What moves the trees? What also makes the, you know, the rabbits and the birds what animates them because they are around the trees too? And then what is it that animates me? Because sometimes I go around the trees. And so there's something invisible that animates the trees and the birds and me. And in the Old Testament worldview, the thing that is doing all of that is also Rewach,

but it's God's Rewach. God's Rewach is doing all that. God's Rewach is animating everything. So this is interesting. There are many, many places in the Old Testament. And they don't mean sorry. Yeah, but that they don't mean God's breath. It just means this energy. Invisible presence and power that is divine. God. Yeah. So we'll spell this out more. If I'm an ancient thinker and you're talking about that, am I picturing some being like blowing and then that breath coming into me and the rabbit and wrestling the wind? Or am I just thinking more abstractly and thinking there must be this kind of power. Well, so think about, again, 3,000 years ago, put yourself, what in your imagination could wind be?

So from the Exodus story, chapter 14, the main actor, how does God act to part the great red seas? He sends a strong East wind in turns the sea into dry land. Is that rock there? Mm-hmm. He sends a strong East Ruach. Eastern Ruach. There are many many Psalms and Proverbs that talk about the God bringing out the Ruach to send the rain and to water the farmfield and so on. So God's connected to what we call wind, but in Hebrew thought it's God's Rua that orchestrates the Rua that commands the weather essentially. It's a way of them seeing that God providentially sustains and is involved in all of animated life, including the invisible wind.

So, but this is so difficult because I don't think that way. I know what wind is. It's like, you know, pressure changes in the air. I know what breath is. I know that I'm breathing in oxygen and all sorts of other things, but I'm using the oxygen and breathing out. What is it? Carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide.

I know that that's part of keeping me alive, because I need the oxygen. I don't know why I need the oxygen, actually. But blood needs it. It's something like that. Yes, blood. Yep. It's blood, or blood cells need it.

Blood cells need it for oxygenating our muscles, or something like that. Kind of embarrassed, I don't. I just damn that more. I better love you, old one, no. But we know that you hold your breath long enough, and you're not. Yeah, you're done for. kind of embarrassed I don't understand that more. I bet a lot of you will don't know. But we know that you hold your breath long enough and you're not. Yeah, you're done for.

But I know that's not the only thing animating me. Yeah. I know that I need calories and proteins. Yeah. So I guess I'm trying to say I have a more sophisticated view of the world. Yeah. What I say is a sophisticated, I'm more advanced.

Yeah, well, it's informed by a whole body of information that we have accessible to us, that the biblical often doesn't really understand it. Yeah, it's accessible to me. I guess here's my point. In order for us to even begin this conversation, I have to try to unlearn that and then begin to think how humans would have thought before they knew that. I have to start to imagine that the wind is ruck and what's in and out of my mouth is ruck. And it's just, I have to get into a different mind space.

It takes a lot of imagination. Yes. It takes a lot of focus and clearing my brain. All for us to even be able to begin to talk about what on earth the Bible means by God's Spirit. Correct. That is what I'm telling you. That's a lot.

It is a lot. Two things. So one is, I think to have a sympathetic reading of what the biblical authors are trying to say when they use this word. Yeah, we need to check our world view categories at the door and understand what they meant. But what we then have to do at some point is come back and relate it to our view of the universe. And I mean, we could do it later or we could do it now, would argue that ultimately we end up in the same place. Sure. You have a different understanding of the physical mechanisms that and processes by which the universe works.

But ultimately, this is a way of talking about God as the originator and author of existence, and that all of existence in the created order originates and is sustained by the creator God. sustained by the Creator God. And Ruaq is the way of talking about how that God is personally present, sustaining and orchestrating his world. I think the thing that I was tripping out on is that for me to understand, okay, this isn't some tangential, it's a three word, tangential. This isn't some secondary or... Yeah. Topic.

This is the Holy Spirit, right? This is really really important Mm-hmm, and so this isn't like angels or something where it's like well Maybe I understand it maybe I don't really care. Mm-hmm. I'd like to this is like the Holy Spirit that's supposed to be living in me and making me a new creation and It doesn't doesn't Paul talk about it like groaning on my behalf Yeah, all this stuff. I'm supposed to be intimately involved with the Holy Spirit.

Yes. And for me to begin to appreciate how the Bible views the Holy Spirit, I have to get into a different mindset, a different world view than the one I'm accustomed to, just to get on a level playing field with the metaphors that it's using. Yeah. And it's important for me to understand the metaphors it's using. Not because those are the exact, like that's not exactly how it works.

That's the metaphors they were using to describe something much bigger and much more interesting. But if I want to understand the way they're describing it, I have to think within their metaphors. Yes. And those aren't the metaphors I think it. Yeah, they're not natural. They're not natural to you. So for me to just get to like, on, to get to bat, you know, with this topic. Yeah, it's interesting. I have to like, yeah, that's right.

It's a, it's a massive imaginative effort. Yeah, here we're back to, we've been here before, where it's the fact that what the scriptures are is God revealing Himself in and through people. And actually the spirit's role in that is really important and we'll talk about that. And so that happens through language that's from a particular people in time and for them to even talk about God, they are going to do it in their language and their frame of reference. That's why Genesis 1 talks about a chaotic desert ocean and not quarks and dark matter. Right. Because that, you know, like, Sure. So yeah, you're right.

Reading the Bible is always a cross-cultural experience. And for the Spirit, I think the reason why it's difficult is because this is such a core part of following Jesus. Yeah. The Spirit's a really big deal. And it involves adopting a new and different type of worldview, at least to get my mind around what the spirit is and what the spirit does. Yeah.

So I've emphasized how difficult it is, but let me try to make sure I'm there. So I breathe in, rock, I breathe out, rock. And to me, that is an energy that's animating me. And I know this because when I see people stop breathing, they stop and- That's right. It's very intuitive.

Very intuitive. Yeah. If you see somebody collapse on the ground, the first thing you're checking for is their pulse. Yeah. Or if there's any ruach. Yeah. It's the one of the most basic signs.

So I just noticed that everyone is alive as ruaching. So I've observed that. And then I'm looking around and like I see leafs ruffling ruffling ruffling ruffling. In the, in, or clouds moving, clouds moving and dandelion seeds floating around. And I don't know why, but I can feel it. I can't see it.

And I go, you know what, that's the same substance. It's keeping me alive. And everyone else I know, human and non-human alive, that's RUAK. And then when I want to understand God, I think, well, all this energy, this is coming from God. That's God's Ruach. When I say it's God's Ruach, I mean, I don't mean like he's up there breathing all of this technically, but just that this power comes from him. Yeah, that's right.

So yeah, it's the question of where did I get my Ruach? Did I make it for myself? Like, what is this animating energy? Which is a three thousand year old way of asking, where did this all come from? Why are we here? What's driving all of this? And the biblical explanation for that is right there in the second sentence of the Bible, it's God's own personal life animating energy. It was hovering over creation before it was even ordered. Yeah, so it raised a bit of a puzzle because the first sentence says,

God created sky and land. But then the second sense of the Bible, who is it that is there in the midst of Tohuvavuhu that's the instrument through which God creates and it's God's Rua. So right there in the first two sentences you're like, wait, so who created God or God's Rua? I mean, the story are they different? Are they the same? And then it's also, it's intentionally connected.

The third verse of the Bible is then what does God and God's Ruaugh do to bring order and verse three begins and God spoke. And of course speaking is precisely what you do with your Ruaugh to breathe out your Ruaugh. So you have God, spirit of God, and God speaking a word that releases the Ruaugh out to bring order and creation. So there's already this complex depiction of even the God of the Bible, of how is God present here in the world doing His work? It's God's Ruaach. Well it's God, yes.

It's God's Ruaach. There's some complexity to God's identity that's beginning to be explored even in the spokeabular is really interesting God's Rua Comes in the story of the Bible then to have an independent character Like it's it's its own this Rua is its own being and character out there doing stuff and We'll see this again in the New Testament where it's the spirit, but sometimes the spirit of God sometimes it's the spirit of Jesus Or sometimes it's just Jesus or sometimes there's this Overlapping within God's identity, so but all that to say the Ruaq is in the Old Testament a way of talking about God, the creator God's personal life, energy, and presence here with me, which goes

back to that question, where did I get my Ruaach? And right all across, it's a gift of God. So that's the image in Genesis 2, God breathes. So God takes dirt, forms the human, but there's still not full human. So God breathes the breath of life and animates. So the vision of humans is that humans are creatures. They come from dirt. They also go back to it. But there is also something about humans that is heaven. It's heaven and earth. That's divine. That's divine. And it doesn't say what that is. It just uses the image of divine ruaq that animates and energizes humans. So the same energy, the same force that hovered over creation, turning it in from Chaos to Order, enters humans. And so now they are a combination of earthlings. And yeah, with this spark of divinity. This spark of divine breath.

And actually, it's not just humans. All creatures have divine ruach. Humans for sure, Job talks about the breath of God and my nostrils. Ecclesiastes says, when you die, the dust returns to the ground and your ruach returns to God who gave it. So it doesn't mean some immaterial version of you floats up to God. That's not what he's talking about. He's talking about, no.

He's talking about your Ruaach, the animating life energy that you've been borrowing. It wasn't you. It's not your identity. No. So it's not like a soul that you identify with. No. It's just the energy that was keeping you alive. It's now given back to God who gave it? Your batteries.

Yeah. God gave you batteries for a while, and then you died and took them back. Which is a Job 34. He says, if God decides to take back his Ruaach and gather his Ruaach back to himself, all mortal creatures would expire. So even the Rewach that I'm breathing right now isn't actually mine, which again, it's all very intuitive, if you've ever seen a human born, you watch them inhale their first Rewach.

So the Rewach is something from the first breath that we receive from outside ourselves. And it is the thing keeping us alive. And the last thing a human does is breathe out, breathe it back out. And so this is all very intuitive to the human experience. Yeah, there's something essential to our life that we didn't come with. We had to receive it as a gift when we were born and it stays with us our entire existence and this is Ruach and then when we die we exhale it and it's gone out of our bodies but it was never ours. Never ours. It was always something we were lent. Yeah, yeah, it was landed to us. Yeah, that's the vision of human Ruaugh, which is actually God's Ruaugh.

This is different than Eastern pantheistic worldviews where I'm God, you're God, the rabbit's God, because I'm not God, even though God's Ruaugh is what animates me. I'm a creature who has received Ruaach as a gift. That's why Job says, it's God's Ruaach in my nostril. He didn't have to give it to me, but he does. And then when he chooses, he will take it back. So this isn't your soul? It's not your soul. Yeah. And so animals have it, we have it. It's the wind around us. OK. Yeah. So when we come down, then to our English word, spirit, the spirit of God, we're talking about.

But rock is often translated spirit, or usually. Yeah, just second. The Rua of God. So what is ever translated in our English translations as anything else but spirit breath or mm-hmm Yeah, when Job says the Ruach of God is in my nostrils. That's translated breath is translated the breath of God is in My nostrils, but it's the same exact phrase as the second is in Genesis Genesis 1 2 this has a spirit of God Spirit of God the Ruach of God is it is weird to say the spirit of God is in my nostrils.

It's weird to say. Yeah, totally. Doesn't make any sense. Well, for us, so this is, this is why it's hard for us. There's one Hebrew word to talk about. My breath, the wind and the trees, God's energy that he lends me to keep me alive and is animating presence that sustains all of creation.

And then all of that is rooted in a concept of who God is, namely that God is Rua. God is Rua. God is Rua. He's not, he's invisible. And he is a everywhere animating and visible energy and personal presence that authors all that exist. But when we use spirit, what we're doing is we're saying it's personal, it's a person, not just simply an energy.

So pantheism would be an impersonal energy in which you and I all participate and exist. So we are all divine And that's not the biblical world. Spirit is... What does that word come from? Hmm. Yeah, do your online Oxford dictionary search? Um... Angle, French, Asperate, modern French, asperate, Latin, spiritus. Hmm. I think it's Latin.

Latin word? Spiritus means breathing and wind. Oh, spirit, like in... Yeah, expi-expiration. Yeah, that would all come from the same. Yeah, spirit. Spirare to breathe. Yeah.

Yeah, so, and then from a photo in Dough European, they think it comes from pice to blow. So it all comes from that metaphor of wind. It does. In Latin as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In modern English, spirit, which comes from the same breath word, refers to a personal being that is invisible. And so that came to be the English translation of Rua when it was talking about not breath or wind, but about God himself when he is invisibly personally present somewhere. Here's a couple examples that are really interesting. Psalm 104, this is so cool.

Verse 29, the poet says, if you hide your face from a creature, they are dismayed. When you take away their ruach, they die and return to the dirt. But when you send forth your ruach, they are created and you revitalize the surface of the dirt. But when you send forth your Ruaach, they are created and you revitalize the service, surface of the ground. So when a creature breathes out its Ruaach, dies. But when you send your Ruaach creation, so it's this connection. But their Ruaach is his Ruaach. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So it's their Ruaach that they Ruach. Right, yeah, exactly. Yeah, so it's their Ruach that you take it away

their Ruach, it becomes God's again. That's what he's saying. But then when God sends forth his own Ruach, that's when creation happens. Now, this isn't talking about Genesis 1. In the context, it's talking about the life and death of animals, like deer and lions and so on. Like I imagine a pregnant deer squatting in the field giving birth to its young.

This poet would call that creation. And that is God's... Guru-A-Lah. Creating new life there, as it takes its first breath. But it comes from a person. It's a person. Yeah, it's a way of thinking about life. Where did life come from? Which, as I understand it, modern biology is still puzzling over that one. And it's a way of saying, God is the ultimate originator of life. and it's a personal being that stands behind all of this. That's the idea. Not only is the, it says when you send

your Ruak, they are created animals and you revitalize the surface of the Yeah, yeah. So now it's talking about just like compost. Right? Yeah, totally. And like, the biology of the earth. Yeah, it's just the, what we would call it, like the ecological cycle, something like that. Right, so the Ruak is responsible, not only for giving breath to the animals, but for the harvest or the vegetation.

The energy that causes the plants to spring up out around. Yeah. Yeah. Which is almost certainly what Psalm 33 means when it says by the word of the Lord the heavens were made their starry host by the Rua of his mouth. Similar idea except it here it's up in the heavens. So even the stars populate out of... Yeah, they're movements. What makes them move and what ordered them? Why aren't they always flying around like the shooting stars? What makes those certain ones stay fixed and move in these orderly patterns?

When it says made here, does it mean like a peered or formed in the same way that like an animal's made. I think made in terms of where did they come from? Who is responsible for them? So this is interesting, because it's like, so the Ruak is responsible for an animal a little, being alive. It's responsible for vegetation coming up out of the earth. Yes. It's responsible for the stars appearing in the sky and the order there and and it's responsible for keeping this all going. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not creation and then the sustaining and ordering and continued order of creation. Those aren't separate ideas in the

Old Testament. That's why a deer being born in a field can be described as creation in Psalm 104. Creation is God's ongoing work in developing and sustaining the world. That's as opposed to a we think of it as a moment right it wasn't there now it's there yes yeah So maybe a way to tie all this together is to say in the Old Testament there's this, I think beautiful aesthetically it's beautiful. It's much more similar to Eastern and mystical worldviews than kind of a modern Western materialist worldview of that God's personal presence Is what animates and energizes all of creation from its first moments of origin right on through and That there is a personal

Divine presence that animates everything that exists and that's Or as Paul says, in him we live and move and have our being. He says in Acts chapter 17, that's exactly right. That statement of Paul's comes from a mind saturated in the Old Testament. It's such a much more mystical mindset to think that I'm breathing in God. I'm looking out and seeing God animating branches. I'm breathing in the energy God is lending to me. I'm not breathing God, I'm breathing in what the energy he's let me borrow. It's similar to Eastern pantheism, but it's different in that the rock isn't

God or the rabbit. We all are creatures dependent on God, who is not an energy person. So there's a distinction between God and His energy. And I am breathing in his energy. And his energy is animating the trees. His energy has ordered the stars, keeps them in motion, and allows stuff to grow out of the ground. All of this is, it's saturating creation. There's something that makes all this go.

This is what my son Roman... And I live and move and have my being. Yes, it's what my son Roman, I live and move and have my being. Yes, it's what my son Roman asked me when we, our first, there were no slugs in Wisconsin when I was finishing my PhD in Wisconsin and he was born. There are no slugs there. When we moved here, when he turned three, he noticed slugs for the first time. We were watching one go and he asked me I Swear this is what he meant because these are the words that he used he said dad out what makes it go? Hmm and I was stunned. I was like really?

He's asking me this question like how old was he? It was three. Yeah, and I was like yeah What does make it go buddy? know, what makes anything go? And then, you know, the moment that I was like, is he really asking me that? The next thing he wanted to do was a spit on it. But, and then he moved on, like his mind had already moved on. So I don't know what he really meant by that question. But he had never really seen-

Has no legs. How is it moving? Yeah, I'd like to think he was a philosopher at three. But that's the question. Like, what makes it go? What makes things go? Yeah. So for, yeah, I'm on. Well, I just, okay, so, but you're saying there's a distinction between God and this energy, but when Paul says for him, he would have been moving ever being. He says not in his energy, do we live and move and ever being?

That's true. And God, we live and move and ever being. In God's own self. Okay, all right. I'll maybe step back from that one a little bit. Yeah, we'll talk about this when we talk about Paul and the Spirit. But yeah, he believes that human life and all of life is just a very thin veil separating us from the life of the divine. Because if we fast forward, we know that the Spirit of God is,

and Christian orthodoxy, is part of the Trinity. So it is God. But at this point in the narrative, it's his breath. And we do our personal invisible presence, the energizes things. And so I wouldn't say I'm breathing in God. I would say I'm breathing in God's rule. The rule of God is in my nostril.

Yeah, because this job would say, yeah. It invites us to almost have a kind of a re-enchanted view of creation. Yeah, it is very enchanting. I think it's exactly the view of our existence that was lost in the Enlightenment. Because we're tempted to just view our emotions as chemicals in our brain, or view the sunset merely as the interaction of light with the air.

Or view our appearance of the air. Or view our appearance of the air. That kind of thing. That's a cocktail of different chemicals. Molecules and so on. And what we've done is given names to the physical components and processes of the material world. But what we haven't answered by those is the metaphysical questions of where did it come from?

What makes it go? What makes it go? And why is it here? And that's what the language of Ruaach is. It's asking us to see that there is a person behind the sunset and the air that I breathe and watching the birth of my child and the slug. And through the story of the Bible, that is a person who wants to be extremely close to us and for us to recognize that closeness and embrace it and live it.

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Bible Project podcast. In the next episode we're going to continue our discussion on the Holy Spirit. Really looking forward to that. Our video on the Holy Spirit is slotted to come out in mid to late March of 2017. You can find it on our website, the BibleProject.com and on our YouTube channel, youtube.com slash the Bible Project. Hey, it is 2017 and this year we're going to be a lot more diligent on our release schedule for this podcast. We're hoping to start releasing a podcast episode every week.

Up till now, it's been a little bit random when we drop them. Thank you for your reviews on iTunes. Those are really helpful. And thanks for saying hi to us, or on Facebook and Twitter. And just thanks for being part of this. you you