BibleProject - The Only Way to Slay the Dragon – Chaos Dragon E16

Episode Date: November 20, 2023

The theme of the chaos dragon runs all through the story of the Bible—along with the biblical authors’ expectation of a coming king who will one day slay the dragon for good. That dragon-slaying king is Jesus, but the way he defeats the dragon is not what anyone expected. In this episode, Tim and Jon explore what it means to truly gain victory over the dragon.View more resources on our website →Timestamps Part one (00:00-8:53)Part two (8:53-22:31)Part three (22:31-36:21)Part four (36:21-44:24)Part five (44:24-51:46)Referenced ResourcesInterested in more? Check out Tim’s library here.You can experience our entire library of resources in the BibleProject app, available for Android and iOS.Show Music “Defender (Instrumental)” by TENTSAll music breaks by Tyler BaileyShow produced by Cooper Peltz with Associate Producer Lindsey Ponder, Lead Editor Dan Gummel, and Editors Tyler Bailey and Frank Garza. Mixed by Tyler Bailey. Podcast annotations for the BibleProject app by Hannah Woo.Powered and distributed by Simplecast.

We've been tracing the theme of the Sea Dragon in the story of the Bible. The Sea Dragon is an ancient symbol of disorder and chaos and death. We've seen how when God's creatures succumb to the Sea Dragon, the Sea Dragon consumes them, making them also chaos creatures. Yet the Bible anticipates a coming King who will defeat the dragon once and for all. And the gospel authors depict Jesus as that King. In today's episode, we look at how Jesus confronts the dragon, and it's not in the way his followers expected. He will allow agents of the snake to take his life, and he will die because of the sins of his people and for their sins.

For the ways they partner with the snake can become agents of the snakes, chaos, and death in the land. He will allow that death to overwhelm him because he knows that he's the son of the father and together that they are the author of all life itself. So for Jesus to have victory over the power of the dragon, he will first surrender to it. This sounds so counterintuitive that Peter, one of Jesus' disciples, rebuke Jesus, and Jesus' response is, get behind me, Satan.

When Peter says, no, this is not going to happen, the voice that Jesus hears speaking through Peter is the Satan, because that's what he calls him. So this is for sure another moment where snakes taking the opportune time, speaking through Peter, you could crush the dragon by smashing their enemies. And Jesus says that's the voice of the Satan, tempting him. Evil chaos and death are scary things. We want to fight back with violence. We want to destroy chaos. We want to bring death to the dragon,

but Jesus says, take up your cross and follow him. To defeat death, we have to be willing to die. And that's because the fear of death is the only real power the dragon actually has. That's the power of the dragon. Get us so afraid of death that we will fall in line under the powers that have the power of our life. And Jesus says, let that version of life go

and let it go the way of the dragon, which is back into the dark chaotic ocean from which it came. Today Tim McE and I are talking about the life of Jesus and what it means to have victory over the dragon in our lives. I'm John Collins and you're listening to Bible Project Podcast. Thanks for joining us.

Here we go. Okay, Tim. Yes, hi John, here we are. Here we are. We're talking about dragons. And we're talking about Jesus, fronting dragon. Wow, we've covered a lot of ground.

Yes, we have. And here we are. It's coming to the climactic moment where Jesus is going to have a victory over the dragon of some sort. Yep, we've been tracking with the story of Jesus in the last conversation. We were looking at ways that the gospel authors

portray Jesus as the one who has come to have victory over the cosmic chaos dragon. The cosmic chaos dragon in one sense is just the reality that there's disorder in the world. Yeah. That God actually brought order to when he created the cosmos and he put it in its boundaries. But then it's also a way to talk about how both humans and spiritual beings can go and league with that disorder and then use it to intentionally fight against God and bring the world into more disorder. And when we talk about that dragon, we're talking about the snake in the garden, we're talking

about Goliath, we're talking about Nebuchadnezzar, we're talking about just corrupt evil violence, just the worst that humans can do to each other. And the worst that the cosmos can do to us. Yeah, that's right, which kill us. Yeah, yeah. We're just pretty bad. I spend most of my time actually trying to avoid that situation. Yeah.

Getting killed by the universe. This is the stuff of nightmares. Yeah. I'm laughing because it's actually so uncomfortable. Yeah. It was cool to see how Jesus confronts this in the form of the Satan and the wilderness, the creature and the wilderness who tries to distort God's word.

And Jesus just is like, no, I'm going to be faithful to God's word. And then also that Jesus is described as the one who could tread on the sea and rebuke the sea, which are images, very clear images of God ordering the cosmic chaos, which is the sea. And this image of treading on the sea and going out is the image of God going out to slay the dragon. And here's Jesus going and doing that. And then he sends out his disciples and gives them authority. And the disciples realize they have the power to subdue chaos. Yeah, that's right. In the form of healing people and who knows what else they experienced. Yeah.

And Jesus is like, yeah, you know what you're doing? You're like stomping on scorpions and snakes. Yeah, totally. Luke chapter 10. Mm-hmm. And so the story of the Bible begins with God putting in motion a creation that's ordered, but there's still chaos out there and he wants humans to partner with him to subdue and rule. And instead, the humans rebel and league with spiritual forces become the monster that

God wants us to rule over. And now here we have Jesus teaching as disciples how to reverse that. But the monster's still loose. Yes, it is. Very much so. Especially now that somebody is on the theme, who actually can threaten it, and resist at the power,

resist at the lure. So we started in our last conversations with Jesus' test in the wilderness that are framed as his victory over the alluring voice of the dragon that says, Listen, if you really have power, you don't have to trust your father to provide you what you need by his wisdom, you can just take the wheel, man. You know, make your own food, make him work on your timeline to deliver you.

And listen, I have this great way for you to gain your authority over heaven and earth. Just do it my way. I'll show you how to gain power if you do it my way. That's just third test. And he says nope. Now we already know how the snake guides people to gain power, because it started with cane. If you need to achieve what is good, and if it costs the life of your brother, you know, sometimes to make an omelet, you gotta break the max, as they say.

Even if the egg is your brother. Even if the egg is your brother. And then the Hebrew Bible, and the rest of human history, is just that on replay. So, Jesus resisted that urge. And so we're told the slanderer finished every test, Luke chapter four, and left him until the right time. So Jesus walks out of that going, okay, so I did the right thing, but really the conflict just like ramp it up. So he's mounting his assault, so to speak, on the reign of the snake, the rule of the snake,

and he knows, he knows that at some point it's gonna lead to the ultimate conflict. And the fact that he knows is actually a major theme in his teachings, surrounding why he calls himself the son of Adam, the son of man. So an important passage in Matthew chapter 16 comes up. Actually, we should say, so we're switching from Luke to Matthew. In Matthew's account, the first resistance Jesus gets from any of the religious leaders, isn't until chapters 9 and 10. After the sermon on the Mount, even, and everybody is like, ooh, this young preacher. I love hearing him. But Jesus begins to describe and be aware of the gospel authors tell us that there's growing resistance among the powers of his own people. By Matthew 16, this scene we're going to read Jesus can read the writing on the wall. He knows the snakes after him. So Matthew 16 for 13, when Jesus came into the district of Cessaria, Philippi, which

is way up north. Still as real? Well, yes, although the area that he's going to in particular was co-opted by some puppet kings under the Roman Empire, one of the sons or grandsons of Herod that tried to kill him as a baby. That's why it's named Philippi, after the name of that king. It's near the source of the River Jordan, and there's this huge cave up there that was a big Greek and Roman era like shrine and temple to, I forget which deity,

but that's provided the waters. And there's a big town and city around it, Cessarie of Philippi. So big multicultural polytheistic center of culture. And there he takes him there and asks his disciples, hey, who do people say that the son of Adam is? So that's my translation. Yeah, the son of man.

The son of man, but man means Adam here when Jesus uses that title. So well, maybe John the Baptist, he was pretty cool. Others say Elijah. Others Jeremiah, one of the prophets. Oh, that's interesting, Jesus says, who do you all say that I am? Simon Peter answered, oh, you're the Messiah.

You're the Son of the living God. How blessed are you, Simon, Son of Jonah? Because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my father, who's in heaven. So there are many things going on. This is an important passage for a lot of reasons. But when Jesus says, who do people say the Son of Adam is? But who do you say that I am?

This connects to a big theme in his teachings the Son of Adam is, but who do you say that I am? This connects to a big theme in his teachings where Son of Adam was one of the main ways that Jesus describes himself. I've kind of shifted from using the phrase Son of Man to trying to use more consistently what the phrase means, which is a Son of Adam, because that's what the phrase actually is in Hebrew, Ben, and Adam. Okay. Yeah, I could flow with that. Yeah, sweet. So you're the anointed one, the son of the living God. You're the snake crushing, see the woman. You're the servant of the Psalms. You're the seat of David.

You're the seat of David. Yep. So that's right. Simon, flesh and blood didn't reveal this to you, So that's right, Simon. Flesh and blood didn't reveal this to you. Because earlier Jesus said, when people start rejecting him, he says that my true identity is known to the Father, and I make known who my father is, and you are making known who I am, but not, you know, to every, you revealed it to babies, but not to everybody else.

So Jesus is tapping into that that He's developed this crew of disciples that really know who He is. So what He says is, I also say to you that you, Simon, are Petros. You're the rock. And upon this rock, I will build my community my assembly and the gates of Hades the grave Will not be able to overpower my assembly this rock gates of Hades. Yeah Lots of things going on. He names his friend rock

Yeah, and then says on this rock, I'm going to build my assembly. Building is like temple building language. And Rock is Jerusalem, mountain of God language. And of God. Rock is also in Hebrew, the word Eben, which is rhymes with the word sun. We saw that in Daniel. We saw it, Yep, back in our conversations about Daniel. So Jesus is going to build something upon this confession of his identity. He's the Messiah and he's going to be building. He's building something on the rock. And here we go back to Sermon on the Mount about building the house on the rock. If you listen to me in my words, but somehow this house on the rock that is the assembly of his followers, the gates of the grave. He says, I know in many translations it says the gates of hell,

but it's the Greek word, Hades, which means the grave. Hades. Yeah, death. Death won't be able to overpower the building of people that I am creating founded upon this confession of who I am. What are the gates of what's that mean? Ah, the gates of Hades are it's the underworld, the realm of the death. It's the way in. It's the way it's the entrance to, so he's describing the power of death as a force to consume everything and everyone. Comes in through the gates. Yep. And those gates, what does that mean that the gates will have no power over it?

Yeah, that's right. I've got an assembly. I've got a crew. I'm out here doing my thing. And you are Peter and you're describing me as the Messiah. It's true. That's really who I am. But as we're going to see, it's true in a way that Simon can say it, but not really understand what he's saying. Where Jesus is going is basically that you're right and I'm going to build my new creation community on it and and I'm gonna die.

And Peter's gonna say, what? No, you're not. Have you just said the gates of Hades will not overpower? It will, exactly, right. Well, okay, let's hold this. Let's keep reading. So, let's hold the Jesus saying in our minds, let's go down and read verse 21, this Matthew 16. From that time, Jesus began to show his disciples that he had to go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders, the chief priests, the scribes to be killed.

And then to be raised up on the third day. And then Peter, the same guy who just said to him, took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, no way, Lord, this is not going to happen to you. But he turned and said to Peter, get behind me, oh Satan, you are a stumbling block, you're actually an obstacle in my path now, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but the things of Adam. It's word, entrapos, for Adam. So apparently death is actually not the, it is an enemy. Jesus is for life. And the gates of the grave will not be able to overpower me and my community. But the way,

apparently, to gain victory over death and its power is to allow it to kill him. Yeah. But then somehow be raised up through it. But be re vindicated out. Yeah, that's right. And we talked about this in a previous conversation, we talked about Jonah. Jesus said, I'm going to give you a sign, yes, the sign of Jonah. Yeah. And Jonah was three days in the belly of the chaos monster. Yeah, that's right. Because of his own sins. For Jonah was because of his own sins. Yeah. for Jonah was because of his own sins. Yeah, but for Jesus, he says, because of your sins, like your sin will be to kill me. And that will be the sign is that you're gonna kill me.

And I'm gonna let you. And then I'm going to be raised from the dead. And this is, you know, we talked about this in Isaiah 2. So when Isaiah asks of God like, when's your arm going to come? Meaning when are you going to come and use your power to slay the chaos dragon? To slay the nebuchadnezzar at that time. Here it's in the form of Rome. And we learn that the one who knows God's arm is this suffering servant who will have victory through death.

Yeah, he will allow agents of the snake to take his life and he will die because of the sins of his people and for their sins and evil, for the ways they partner with the snake can become agents of the snakes, chaos, and death in the land. He will allow that death to overwhelm him, because he knows that he is one. He's the son of the Father, and together that they are the author of all life itself. It has no power. So with the first time that Jesus responds to Peter, and

to say the gates of the grave can't overpower it, that could go two ways. Peter just said, you're the Messiah. And he says, yeah, that's right, death has no power. I mean, you could think, sweet, you're gonna ride on your horse. You're never gonna die. You're just gonna, you're living forever and we're gonna go smash the dragon and Jerusalem.

Let's go smash some heads. Let's go smash some heads. And then the next scene is Jesus saying, no, I'm going to let them smash my head. And Peter says, what? Like, no. And then when Peter says, no, this is not going to happen. The voice that Jesus hears speaking through Peter is the Satan, because that's what he calls him.

So this is for sure another moment where the snake's taking the opportune time, as it were, speaking through Peter, you could come to rule over the cosmos and over, crutch the dragon by not giving up your life, by smashing your enemies. And Jesus says that's the voice of the Satan, tempting him. It's a wild. Yeah, of the Satan, tempting him. It's like wild. Yeah, it's, um, so wild. It's a pretty abrasive thing to say. If I was like Jesus' therapist,

I'd be like, we could probably say this in a more constructive way, Jesus. Jesus. So fightin' words. Calling your dear friend the Satan, because he wants you to not die. Like, in a normal relationship that's like a good thing to desire for your friends. I was kinda imagine a scenario where someone close to me who has the best intentions, but just doesn't get it,

is actually making a plan or pleading a case. So good. That is like gonna take us into chaos. Yeah, death. It's gonna, you're gonna die if you do that. They just, and they just don't get it. Yeah. Because they're the paradigm of like how you fight against chaos

is probably just more normal. And in that situation, just straight up, calm them, Satan. Like that's the intense. Yeah. You can flip it. You can try and empathetically enter in Peter's point of view, to say like,

Jesus, you're really awesome. I love you. Been following you. I really believe in this kingdom of God dream. It's bringing healing to so many people. But let's just back up to that last part you said. Because it sounds like you're gonna let them kill you. Yeah.

And maybe we don't have to do that part. Yeah, that's not how kingdoms are founded. It's actually the opposite. That's a little scary. Yeah, that's actually the opposite. That's a little scary. Yeah, that's the tension. Really we're all the way back to the sin Monster whispering in camezir saying listen God I'm paraphrased. I'm interpreting the cane story here. God must not care about you

He's down for your brother. He loves his offering not yours If you really want the good life for yourself, I think you're going to need to get that blessing from your brother. He probably needs to go. And then you'll have the good life that you want. And if we envision that the founding of our lives or our communities, the only way to experience the good life, even if it might

involve disadvantaging or at the expense of another. It's that, that's the way of the dragon, it's the chaos way. There's not enough. If you want to make a nomlet, you've got to break some eggs. And that's what Jesus is exposing here, is the way of the grave, the gates of the grave, and the way of the Satan. But to overcome it, overcome it. You can't do a typical like battle against it. The intuition of let's just go crush them snakeheads. Somehow isn't the right strategy. Yeah. What if you surrender to it? You let it

You expose yourself to its danger in an act of surrender and generosity Trusting that even if you lose that ultimately in God's economy, you're going to live going to live. This exchange between Peter and Jesus, I think gives us just this window of the confidence, but also the trust, the journey of trust that Jesus ventured out into and trusting that his father would vindicate him even if it meant giving up his life. But why couldn't of Jesus just battled against Satan and just like, yeah, sure. Like that is a victory. Like if he just went and just chopped off.

Yeah. The serpent's head like David held it up through the body into the field. Like, all right, guys, we're done. Let's have the cosmic feast now. Yeah, no, that's a good question. What's wrong with that strategy? Yeah, I think there is something about,

maybe this is, we need to take the biblical story up kind of to its big cosmic frame. But remember, we're outside of Eden. This is all happening outside of Eden. And the place of seeing God entering into union with God, going to his endless banquet table is, we're not gonna find that outside of Eden. That's in paradise.

And so paradise is actually reality in the biblical storyline, whereas we live in a version of reality that's thoroughly compromised because it's subject to the powers of the grave, the gates of the grave, and the Chaos Dragon. So what Jesus needs to open up for us is the way, the way to the paradise, or to let the power of paradise out here. And apparently, the way to fully enter into the kingdom can only be by letting this mode of existence that were in die. I guess that's intuitive on one level. My body. This. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. Body. he became human. He entered into the realm of the snake in being born. Yeah, and why not if that mortal human woman?

Why not in that mode take out the snake? In the mortal human mode? Well, that's what he said he did by letting it kill him and then being raised in a eternal mode of existence. Yeah. So is there something about being raised, like he needed to go through death to be raised into the new mode, not necessarily because he had to undergo that transformation, as much as he needed to show what it looks like for a human to undergo that transformation as much as he needed to show what it looks like for a human to undergo that transformation.

Yeah. Because ultimately, I think what you were saying is we need a new mode. Yeah, that's right. And to do that, we need to surrender our current understandings of what, not just the good life, but what life is. It's literally what he goes on to say after he says to Peter, you don't have your mind on God's interests, but atoms. Then he said to his disciples, if anybody wants to come after me, you must deny yourself,

take up your cross and follow me, whoever wants to save your life will lose it, but whoever loses your life for my sake will find it. So death, it's actually death, it's like the gateway. It's the gateway in. The gateway into... You give this chaos dragon, all he can take from you, which is your life. But in reality, God has, it's like God

has a greater claim on your life because he called you into being. He's the one who called you to exist. So let the chaos dragon take what it wants to take. Take what it can. Take all that it can take. Because you don't need that anyways. Yeah. In fact, that's what's probably holding you back is those things. Yeah. The stuff that you think is actual life, but that's not really life.

And is that maybe that's part of the key is and maybe we'll get into this in the letters Mm-hmm But this mode of existence Is so co-opted by the dragon that we can't beat the dragon in this mode like you have to let it get stripped away Yeah, which is gonna look like a death. Yes, mm-hmm. It will be death death is the way you Give the dragon what it wants. You're saying ultimately we're all still going to die. Yeah. Even if you follow Jesus like you're going to, the dragon's going to have its last slash at you.

I think Jesus definitely means that. It also common sense. Also common sense. It's telling all of us that we're dying and we're going to die. So why not lay it down now? Whatever form of eternal life and new creation life that God's going to gift us with, it means, as Paul will say, as you're right, we will look at that flesh and blood our current mode of existence cannot inherit the kingdom of God. You know, I'm just trying to bring this back to the bigger theme of like me too. We both are.

Because there's this thing about I'm supposed to subdue the earth as God's image. So there's this impulse of me of being like, I want to go tame dragon. I want to go fight the dragon. I want to put the dragon in place. I want to crush the dragon's head. Let me add it. And the disciples are like, look, we're doing it. Like, we're seeing the chaos dragon, it's just thrilling.

But then when it gets to this moment, it's like, okay, you really want to fight the dragon? You want really want to know what the true battle plan is to win. You're actually going to let the dragon take all it can from you. And the only way that makes sense is to realize that, I think what you were saying, this mode of existence that I'm in is so tarnished by the way of the dragon. That like any effort I'm going to have to like fight against it

is going to get just mixed up and turned around and I'm gonna find out I'm the dragon again. Yeah, that's right. I'm gonna try to fight against it, suddenly I'm fighting for it or with it, and it's so confusing and it's happening. This is my experience, right? Totally, that's right. And that's surely why the difficult to see

and get your hands on deceptive portrait of the snake in the garden that's so on purpose. Hmm. Because it's hard to, right? Hard to get your hands on it. And all of a sudden, you think that you're being independent and doing what you want, but you're totally doing the will of something that feels like what you don't want to do and how did I end up doing that right it's as simple as Peter just being like Jesus maybe you don't need to go die and it's like all of a sudden like he's the dragon yeah that's right yeah how simple is it to be like I'm gonna go stop on that scorpion over there and then I like the next thing I know like I'm the scorpion stomping on someone else like how is good? How does that happen? And it seems like then the logic here is saying the ultimate way forward is to be stripped of all of that. And you know how you do that? You actually just let the dragon at you. And you let him have every last thing, even your very, what you think is your very life

and what ultimately will is your very life, and what ultimately will be your very life. And you will be left with what you actually need. You will have enough left. Yeah, so two things. One, the only reason why you would let the dragon have you and not try and resist and fight or fight other people is because in Jesus, the way Jesus is framing it, because he's saying, I'm going ahead of you. I'm going to go overcome

the snake by letting it kill me, but it actually can't kill me. Because I, I, as he says in John, like the sun, I have a life in myself just as the father has life within himself. So, the snake can't really kill me, but man, if I open the way back into Eden on your behalf, then I won't let the snake take your life either. He might kill the current version of you that you call yourself, but that's all he can take. You might put, you know, I mean, that's death, but you could also find yourself Throne in a dungeon, right? Yeah, you can find yourself Throne to the lion's turn to lions. Yep. You can find yourself with like losing friends and family losing

Your job your home. These are the things that we are trying to protect Yeah, without the dragon can come and take. Yes, that's right. And if you loosen your attachment to those things and see them as a gift of God's generosity that comes and goes, but ultimately, this is back where to job, the conversation is about job. If I come to realize that the ultimate good that I could ever gain is intimate union with the source of all life and being.

If that one wills that I should live and wants me to enter into union with him, then that's that is the ultimate. Like what more would I ever want? And letting go. What else is death but letting go of all of the things that I think will give me the good life only to realize that they're dying and fading and breaking and letting me down to.

You know, maybe another way into this is to think about your battle against the chaos dragon can easily start to become just a battle trying to protect things, to protect your own life on your own terms. Yeah. Yes. So you think you're battling the Chaos Dragon? You're really just battling to protect what you have.

Yeah. And in doing so, you actually can easily become the dragon for someone else. Hmm. Yeah, it's really well said. That's right. We become each other's Chaos dragons as we try to protect the good life for me and my crew. Yeah. People I care about. The way I think I need the good life. I have this vision for it. It doesn't mean suffering. I mean, absolutely not. And it means like

security on my terms. And especially once you've had it, then it's just like you fight to keep it. And you think I'm fighting against chaos because it feels like chaos wants to come and take that from me. And I guess it chaos does. Yeah, yep, that's right. But how are you going to fight against that chaos without becoming the chaos for others? That's right. And then there'll be a bunch of people that were somehow affected by my efforts to secure and protect what is mine, and maybe they got hurt, or maybe they just want to get some of the good life too. And then the way that they respond to me, I might see that as a threat.

And then I might, you're right. And then we start like knocking up against each other in our efforts to secure the good life. And I guess the dragon just laughs because we're just reducing each other to... Yeah, the dragon laughs because he knows that when we go to fight it, we just, we're gonna get confused and we're gonna actually help it. Yeah, feed the dragon, which is just consuming us, consuming order, consuming life. So how do you fight the dragon?

Yeah. What if I was able to look at the little realm of order that I build by my own wisdom? Praise God for it, see it as a gift, but also not become so attached to it that I'm willing to do something that I can discern will actually damage myself for another person Because ultimately I know that this is not what I'm hoping for. This is just a sign and a gift These people this job this home this income stream Whatever it is that I'm trying to protect in ways that might hurt me or other people What if I loosen my attachments to it because ultimately I have to wave goodbye to all of it because I'm outside Eden Yeah, and my body's returning to the grave, but my essential self

And this is yeah, this is crucial my essential self God has willed That you and I exist. I don't know why. We don't have to exist. There was a long time in which you and I did not exist. Like most of history. But God has willed it so that I come into being out of the nothingness. And if I trust that you will will that I continue to exist even though this current mode of my existing is going to return to the dust, then that really changes your perspective for like a freeze you. And I think that's the vision of new creation. That's why there's no snake in the new creation. It can't have power, any power there, because death is no longer a motivator. And the same creative power that God used to order creation in a way to think about that is

slaying the dragon in a way. That same power can then come after the new dragon, which is a much more beastly, confusing dragon because it's also us. And league with like spiritual evil, the rulers of the sky, and God has the power to destroy that dragon too. And that's the hope of what Jesus did. Yeah. And Jesus's trial scene in Matthew chapter 26, we've looked at this number of times over the years, but it bears at least a reading in this context of our conversation, the chief priest.

So these are the principalities and powers, the human principalities and powers that he's standing before. Though when he was arrested in Gethsemane in Luke's version, he says to the guards, coming to get him, Jewish guards, this hour belongs to you and to the powers of darkness. So in this trial, Jesus sees himself on trial before the human and the heavenly powers of the dragon. They bring false witnesses, notice they have to use deception to get him.

And the high priest says to him, I make you swear on earth before the living God that you tell us whether you are the Messiah, the anointed one, the Son of God. And Jesus said to him, well, you just said it. You don't be saying it? But I got one more thing to say to you. From this moment onward, you will see the Son of Adam sitting at the right hand of power coming on the clouds of heaven. St. Daniel 7.

He's quoting from Daniel 7. He's evoking the whole scene. So if Jesus is the divine Son of Adam ascending up into the heavens, to the right hand of God, to the right hand of God, to share in rule, but like pull up the scene, what are the other players in that scene and what's happening to them? There's only three players in that scene. Of the Angle 7? Yeah. Yeah, there's the beasts, the four beasts.

There's the Son of Man and Daniel's watching it, whatever. For the ancient of days on the throne. Ancient days on the throne, okay. So you have ancient of days, the fire coming out, the beast is trampling. Tramppling, but then conquered and thrown into the fire, and then the Son of Man, who's on the land that was getting trampled, gets exalted up.

So if Jesus is the son of Adam, and if his father is the one sitting on the throne that he's going to ascend up to, that only leaves one other slot for chiafist and the chief priest and the Sanhedrin, the leaders of the people. So in this moment, he's saying, the only solution you guys can think of

for how to deal with me is to kill me And he's like that's like snake strategy 101 Very creative very creative ever since can this has been the move Just the move of the snake. Yeah, you want to know how to secure the good life here outside of Eden? Well, kill your enemy. You get to kill your enemy But then what he says is the moment You're the good life here outside of Eden? Well, kill your enemy. You get to kill your enemy. But then what he says is from this moment on, you will see the son of Adam sitting on the right hand.

They're about to give him a crown and a cape, a robe. Yeah, but to Malcolm. And a scepter. And that mock enthronement is in reality, you're actually handing me the keys to the cosmos. That's what he's saying. I don't need the version of ruling the cosmos that you guys think is worth killing somebody for.

We talked about Daniel 7. Daniel is looking at the beasts, they're gnarly. He's looking at the ancient of days and the fire. And then also, he looks over and the sun of man's writing the clouds and the beast are slain and what you didn't see Was how he slayed beasts. Yeah, that's right. And now we get here Jesus is on trial He's saying you're about to see me right up in the clouds. Yeah, you're about to see that moment the Son of man writing up in the clouds and If we're a voking Daniel, the beasts are slain then. But what we're going to watch is the beast.

Slay him. And I guess there, that's the radical rebirth of our imaginations that Jesus is inviting us to, that when you see power exercised through violence in our world, it feels like that's the most powerful thing. That's the power of the dragon to get us to be afraid, so afraid of death that we will fall in line under the powers that have the power over our life. And Jesus says that you're actually not realizing your true royal identity as a son or daughter of God and let that version of life go and let it go the way of the dragon, which is back

into the dark chaotic ocean from which it came. In other words, the moment you kill me, you're sealing your decision to live and die by the power of the dragon. You're also putting the seed of life in the belly of the dragon. Oh, that's right. But just so happens in this instance, you are trying to kill somebody that you can't kill me. It's almost like when High Priest says, tell us whether you are the Messiah, what Jesus

is saying is like, you just have no idea what kind of conversation we're having right now. Yeah, you want me to confess my identity, but you really haven't come to terms with my identity really. Who I really am. It's kind of like Peter in that way. You think you know who I am by saying I'm the Messiah, but you really, you don't understand how this works. You know, I'm just thinking about, again, I'm just, this is the theme of the dragon.

Yeah. All of a sudden we're talking about spiritual evil here, but using, I love you, you started using the phrase, the power of the dragon. What's the power of the dragon? The power of the dragon is chaos and the ultimate power of chaos that we dread is death. Death. Yeah. And when the sword of the bow begins, that's all put in its place and ordered. And the dragon exists and it represents chaos and death, but it's out there in its own realm. And you don't have to worry about it and you have access to life. And so the power of the dragon about and you have access to life. And so the power of the dragon is muzzled

and we're told to like subdue it. And then both the sky rulers and the human rulers decide, actually, let's use that power. Let's use that power because we need to rule on our own terms and we don't have the power of God. We need some sort of power, the power of death. That's going to work pretty well. Yeah, that motivates people.

Sure does. And it gets things done. My brother, he's getting God's favor, not me. I don't fix this. Yeah. That's right. That group of people, they're threatening our prosperity. I know what to do with them. Yeah, let's just kill them

Or in a more subtle ways of just like Yeah, you know my my friend isn't doing the things I wish you would do in my life Like maybe I can like manipulate this friendship through scarcity and like yeah, you know in some way Yeah, and some way. Yeah, and that way it's kind of a threatening relational chaos. Yeah, right. As it were. Oh, and that might, maybe that's by cutting a friend off.

Right. So I just won't talk to them. Silence. Dead space. I don't know. I'm trying to think metaphorically. Yes. Ways that we use the power of the dragon or the fear of death, the fear of isolation,

the fear of being alone, the fear of not having enough. We can activate that, threaten it. Many different ways. Use it as a motivator to create what we feel like is order in our eyes. Yeah, but in reality, we are becoming agents of the dragon as we make those choices. It's really powerful inside. I always thought of the Satan as being the ultimate power, but it feels like what this theme is communicating is that ultimate power of evil is just the dragon.

It's the dragon. And when you use the dragon, you're using the power. And it feels very sinister. But the power in and of itself can just be the creature playing out in the ocean that we can learn to subdue. And yeah, you don't have to use it. You can rule it. You can rule it.

That's what he says to God. That's the cane. Yeah, you don't have to let it be the thing that ruins you or another person. If you look at Satan through the eyes of like it's Jesus, you don't see the monster. You see a creature with the costume on. And you're kind of like, that's a little silly because you're not the dragon. I know the dragon. Like I put them out there. Yeah. I made the boundaries. I know like that's does not why are you putting on that costume? You think that's scary? And we're like, yeah, that's pretty scary.

Yeah, because we're like, it can take my life. And Jesus was like, yeah, but that's all I can take. It can't take you. Because there's more life after this life. Yeah, you are more than just the flesh bag of bones. So apparently following Jesus and trusting his victory over death and his vindication onto resurrection life and claiming that future and identity as my own is absolutely crucial to gaining any victory over the dragon in my life. As long as I fear it, I'll just keep perpetuating its ways. At the end of Matthew, when Jesus makes his great commission, he says, all authority in heaven and earth has been given to me.

It's his claim. Like the power of the dragon is no more when it comes to me. It has no authority. It has no authority over me. I have authority over it. And then this next thing is so, I have an idea. Let's build the family of people who are learning to live by my teachings, doing what I commanded you, and go make disciples baptizing them.

But living by my commands, as you go read the sermon on the mount, it's just like a lesson in how to get right relationship to your possessions, to your relationships, to your own moral choices, and it's really beginning to wean yourself off of the ways of the dragon. That's the one way to think about the sermon on the mount. It's very difficult, but that's apparently like actually living that way becomes a live option if your fear of death is no longer the biggest motivator in your life. So the apostles will reflect on this as they write to the first century church, and they use, but has some unique language.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, the snake imagery or dragon imagery comes up a few times, so we can look at some of that, but especially when Paul the Apostle thinks about the great victory over the dragon, he's taken the costume off, and he just calls it what it is. He just calls it the power of death, the ultimate enemy. Yeah. He holds the costume up. Or yeah, that's awesome.

Thank you. That's great. He's like, this is what you've been afraid of. Yes, yeah, that's right. So that's what we'll look at. Yeah, the victory of the dragon in post letters. Well, everybody, this is Dan Gubble, podcast team, and I'm back with another employee introduction here on our show. You wanna do yourself?

Yeah, I'm Allison Stain. Yeah, Allison. And how long have you been a Bible Friday? A little over four years. Actually, the podcast played a huge role in the Finding Bible Project. I was in a season of really questioning what even is the Bible. I felt like so many other resources that I was finding were kind of either deconstructionist or not really addressing the real questions that I had.

And so listening in to Tim and John's conversations felt like these questions are actually being addressed. I was like opening up the Bible in a whole new way I had never seen before. How did you find the podcasts? Honestly, I think through Tim being interviewed on a different podcast, I was like, I need to hear more of this. That's cool.

Yeah. Okay, well, tell me about what you do here about what project. I get to lead the global team, which really focuses in on localizing our videos and other content into right now 55 languages and dialects. So like, what does that mean for you on a daily basis? I get to serve our internal team

who are project managing a lot of this work. I also get to lead the Turkish and the German projects. How did you choose those two? I speak those two languages. Oh, that makes sense. Not fluently, but well enough that I love getting to be in on the action. Yeah, because I met the German team

few months ago when you brought them by. That's right. That was really fun. Probably a lot of people who are listening, may or may not know that we have other languages that we're working on. Maybe one of the common misconceptions that it's just subtitles, but it's not that.

Can you maybe outline a little bit more what it actually is? Yeah, subtitles play a huge role in helping people experience their videos in the early days, but we recognize that you don't really experience the video fully because you're so busy reading the subtitles that you miss kind of the action as well as a lot of our videos have words on the screen. Yeah, and so you guys will basically make a new video. That's right. So now you're watching the video and everything that you see all the text on the screen as well as everything you hear is in the new language. I'm just gonna brag on you and say that internally when we start to work on the K-NAS Dragon, Thailand, I'm like, man, it'd be fun to like start to leverage some of the other people here who play music. You were one of the people who responded when we put out that call.

And both the Highlanders were like, well, this is really good. How did you like tell me about your music interests? Yeah, my mom is a piano teacher. So grew up with piano being just a part of life and love, composing. So I actually started out studying that in college and then shifted gears, but it's just

always been a love. So yeah, that was a really fun invitation. For folks who might be listening right now, what would you want to say to our podcast audience? I just want to say I'm listening along with you guys. It's super fun. I tune in pretty much every Monday when a new one drops and that's what I'm listening to is I get ready for work. That's cool.

Okay, let's read the credits. Yes. Today's show came from our podcast team, including producer Cooper Peltz and associate producer Lindsey Ponder. Our lead editor is Dan Gummel. Additional editors are Tyler Bailey and Frank Garza. Tyler Bailey also makes this episode. And Hannah Wu would have our annotations

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