BibleProject - The Spirit of Wisdom

Episode Date: August 3, 2026

Spirit of God E3 — We’ve discovered in this series so far that God’s Spirit, or ruakh in Hebrew, creates and sustains all life, moment by moment. Another key way the Spirit works in the world is by filling humans with wisdom. But in each story of the Spirit and wisdom, we’re left wondering: Was God’s Spirit working through that person, or was that just the person? In this episode, Jon and Tim explore the Hebrew Bible’s portrayal of the Spirit of God and human wisdom, revealing a profound partnership at work. CHAPTERS Recap and Setup for Spirit and Wisdom (0:00-9:09) Joseph’s Wise Words to Pharaoh (9:09-25:47) Bezalel’s Craftsmanship and Joshua’s Leadership (25:47-40:17) An Extraordinary Spirit in Daniel (40:17-54:49) OFFICIAL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT View this episode’s official transcript. REFERENCED RESOURCES In chapter 1, Tim briefly alludes to ruakh as life in  Genesis 6, involving the Nephilim and “sons of God.” For more on this passage, check out our first question and response episode from the God and Spiritual Beings podcast series. Tim also teaches on this passage at length in module two of the Noah to Abraham Class. Correction: in chapter 4 of this episode, Tim accidentally cites Daniel 4 as the place where King Nebuchadnezzar commands his magicians to tell him his dream and interpret it. This story is actually in Daniel 2. Check out Tim's extensive collection of recommended books here. SHOW MUSIC “Sanctuary feat. Asaph’s Arrows” by Lofi Sunday “Lunch Break ft. Abstractv” by Lofi Sunday “jazz club.” by Lofi Sunday, PAINT WITH SOUND SHOW CREDITS Production of today’s episode is by Lindsey Ponder, producer, and Cooper Peltz, managing producer. Tyler Bailey and Aaron Olsen edited today’s episode and provided the sound design and mix. JB Witty writes the show notes. Our host and creative director is Jon Collins, and our lead scholar is Tim Mackie. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to Bible Project podcast. We're in a series discussing the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God animates and sustains all of life. It's Ruach in Hebrew or Pneuma in Greek. It's the personal life-giving power of God that we live in and move in and breathe into our lungs. Ruach and Pneum are the main biblical words. To talk about how a creature exists. It has to be filled with God's presence in order to even be.

Today, we look at how the Spirit of God is closely connected to becoming wise. Spirit and wisdom. If you look in the hundreds of passages where Ruach appears in the Hebrew Bible, you will find many passages where God's wisdom is close by. We're going to look at how Joseph is able to interpret Pharaoh's dreams. Somehow he connects to the thoughts of Pharaoh and makes sense of them. And Pharaoh said to everybody standing around, Are we able to find a man like this anywhere else, a man in whom is the Ruach Elohim?

We're going to look at the craftsman Betzelel, who's filled with the Ruach of God in order to create the tabernacle. It's the ability to make Eden like beauty, to make Eden out of cloth and gold metal. It's amazing. In the Hebrew Bible, God's spirit supercharges characters so that they can become more of who God designed them to be. This is a partnership with the divine. The whole premise of the biblical story is God has chosen to bring about his wise rule through human images.

And so right there already is a marriage of divine and human agency. Today, Tim Mackey and I talk about the spirit of God and wisdom. Thanks for joining us. Here we go. Hey, Tim. Hey, John, Collins. Hi. I've been processing in this conversation about God's Ruach.

And I found it really hard to orient myself to this ancient view of thinking. Okay, yeah. I think Paul will say God is spirit. And so when we talk about how all reality exists because of God's life and we live within God

and God is around us and God is in us and that ancient framework, that mentality, is that what Paul means when you just says God is spirit? Oh, that's a great question. Yeah, I think, he's naming the thing that I'm trying to name with other words. Okay. So we're talking about the way that God, so to speak, goes outside God's self, to reach out and create and sustain an other.

And for that thing that is not God to be. To exist. To exist. It has to be sustained. I mean, here go the metaphors. permeated, joined to, aligned with, filled with God's presence in order to even be. And so Ruach in Hebrew and Pneumah in Greek is the way to talk about that. So when we say God is spirit, it's a creature saying those words. Yes. So by definition, it's a creature who can only say those words with Pneuma coming out of their mouth.

You know? No. Oh, when I say the words, God is spirit, I am breathing out air that I didn't make for myself. I received it as a gift. So whatever it would mean to even think or talk about God's transcendent, ultimate self that's above and beyond all, I don't know. I'm a creature. I can never know that. But what I can know is, as God has revealed God's self to me, Ruach and Pinauma, or the main biblical word,

to talk about how a creature exists. I exist because of God. I exist within God. I can breathe in the spirit of God. In Him we live and move and have our being, as Paul says. And so everything has life and sustains life because of God. And the shorthand is God is Spirit. Yeah, that's right.

It's like a riddle, really. God is breath. God is wind. God is mind. God is life. All right. Here we are as creatures, breathing, breathing Ruach. Yeah, we're breathing oxygen.

But when we say we're breathing ruach, you're using that as a metaphor. Sure. To understand something deeper and more true. The metaphysical thing. The metaphysical thing that we only exist. Our lives are held together. Maybe even just all molecules are held together by the breath of God. That's right.

Yeah. So there it's the life. sustaining energy. Years ago, we found the metaphor of energy helpful. Yeah. There's more to God than a creature could ever know and comprehend. A creature, knowing God, doesn't mean they have fully comprehended everything about God's essence and being. And for Paul to say God's spirit isn't him saying, I'm going to tell you this crisp definition of exactly how to think about God. No. Theological language is, there's no such thing as crisp, precise language about God. Well, if I was going to do a theological dictionary entry, I would start something as simple as like, well, God is spirit.

Yeah, but then you have to do a whole thing on. What does that mean? Yeah. So to say that God is spirit, we're talking about the way that God has reached out to me and sustaining me. And I can connect to God. And so God is spirit. But God is even more. God's beyond any category, you know. And this is where Paul will use these phrases, beyond what we could even. think or imagine. Immortal, invisible, God only wise, you know, this kind of language. Really, that's their way of saying, all our knowledge will hit a boundary. But what I do know is that I'm living and I don't have life in and of myself, neither does any

of reality. It's a gift that comes from above and beyond. And in that sense, to exist is already to be joined to God in a really important way. And so life was what we focused on in the last conversation. Life and death. Life and death, that's right, but that God is life. Yeah. And for God to create a creature that doesn't have life in and of itself, it means that its life is a gift, and it sits on the precipice of life and non-life if God doesn't keep supplying life. But God wants to keep supplying life. Yeah. Problem is humans want to redefine life by our own wisdom, and it ends up being death and not life. Yeah. If you were to look at the key ideas and words associated with spirit throughout the Hebrew Bible, life is high on that list.

But there's a couple other words and ideas that are like most repeated. One of them is wisdom, spirit and wisdom. In other words, if you look in the hundreds of passages where Ruach appears in the Hebrew Bible, that's where we'll focus in this conversation. You will also find many passages where God's wisdom is close by. So, first time the word ruach appears in the first pages of the Bible is God's ruach hovering, fluttering in the dark, uncreated, pre-creation state. And then the next appearance of God's breath as an idea is God breathing into the clay that is formed.

Well, that's a different word. It's a synonym. Synonym, neshima. Yeah. And then later, in the flood story, Ruach and neshima will get joined together as the life breath of a creature. So life is really key. If you go through Genesis from there,

looking for Ruach vocabulary, you won't find very much. You'll find another association of spirit and life in Genesis 6. It's a complex passage about the Nephilim and the sons of God. We're just going to skip right over that because we've talked about it before

in the past. If you look for Ruach vocabulary after that, the next time it really comes into focus is not till almost the end Genesis in the story of Joseph as a slave down in Egypt. So, let's pick up in that story, because there's some vitally important occurrences of Roach there.

So Joseph's been betrayed by his brothers in Genesis 37, sold to some caravan traders, Ishmaelites, then they sell him down in Egypt as a slave. He ends up in the Egyptian high-ranking officials' house named Potifah. and he does great for himself there in Potiphar's house, and he becomes like the house manager of the whole house. So portrayed by his brothers, sold as a slave, and then works his way up to be a very trusted servant for this guy, Potter. That's right.

And importantly, what you are told is that Genesis 39, verse 2, Yahweh was with Joseph, and he became, very successful. So Potipar elevates him to become, basically, his right-hand man, over everything. Eventually, the only thing that Joseph doesn't have any responsibility for is Potipar's wife. And that is the twist in the plot, because then Potipar's wife takes a liking to Joseph and wants to get in bed with him. Joseph refuses, and Potipar's wife accuses him, and Joseph gets thrown into prison. And what we're told then is at the end of Genesis 39 is that once again, Yahweh was with Joseph

and showed loyal love to him and gave him favor in the eyes of the head of the prison. And so he ended up in prison getting become the manager, right-hand manager of the prison. So you can see there's something about this guy. Yeah. People notice it. What the narrator tells you is,

Yahweh is with him. It's, I guess, as riddle-like and pact as saying God is spirit. Yahweh is with someone. In a way, isn't Yahweh everywhere in creation? So in that sense, he's with everything. So we're using a spatial metaphor, Yahweh being next to somebody. Talk about a connection with Yahweh. Connection.

Yahweh is working in and through this person in such. a powerful, visible way. Because success. So everything he does works out. Right. So I think what's important here is the word spirit is going to appear later. But the point is, for years.

The idea. For many, many years, Joseph is marked as somebody who is really responsible, works hard, and when you make plans, people notice. And God is with him.

This is the phrase used. Okay. So after this, Pharaoh has a dream. Chapter 41. I'm actually skipping a chapter, but I'm just trying to keep the story going here. Pharaoh has a dream. What we're told is that, you know, he has a dream of seven healthy cows grazing by the Nile,

then seven mutant, ugly cows like crawl up out of the Nile River and eat the healthy cows. It's a grisly dream. Yeah. Kind of imagine a Salvador dolly painting when I think about this dream. Totally. Yes. Yeah, thanks for that. That's right.

So, okay, so he wakes up and he's freaked out. He tells, you know, he's hired magicians and astrologers. These are things that ancient kings, you know, had staff of these kind of crew, and they can't tell him what the dream means. Then one of his courtier says, wait, no, I know of this Hebrew servant. I came across him. He's in a prison, but he can interpret dreams. because that's what happened in chapter 40 that we skipped.

So Pharaoh calls for Joseph, and he has Joseph shaved and puts on a change of clothes. Okay, make them look nice. Yeah, kind of like a transformation process. Yeah, all his hair cut off. He tells Joseph the dream, like repeats it kind of word for word. And Joseph just says, you know, God is revealing to you, Pharaoh, something that he's about to do. And he goes on to say, the seven, you know, healthy cows are seven years of abundance and plenty, followed by seven years of famine and drought. And God is showing you what's about to happen.

So I've got an idea, Pharaoh. So not only does he interpret the dream, but then he says, you know what he should do? You should appoint supervisors over the land, and you should store one fifth of all the harvest. for each of these seven years to save up for the seven years of drought that are coming. And what he says is, Pharaoh, you should select somebody who is discerning and wise. So discerning is one of your favorite wisdom words in the Hebrew Bible. Benah? Yeah, yep, binah.

So your ability to discern between things, good and bad, knowing good and bad. Yeah. Or good from bad. And then wise is about competence and skill. This was Hokwa? Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah.

Or ha-ham. Okay. But Hokmah is the noun wisdom. So that's what you should do. This plan was good in the eyes of Pharaoh and in the eyes of all the servants. And Pharaoh said to everybody standing around, whoa. Well, I guess that's my answer. There's no woe.

There's no woe. What he says is, are we able to find a man like this anywhere else? a man in whom is the Ruach Elohim. So it's the first time the phrase Ruach Elohim has appeared. Since Genesis 1? Since Genesis 1. Yep. So there's been other appearances of spirit where God will say like my Ruach.

But the phrase Ruach Elohim is going all the way back. And then Pharaoh says, you know, God has given you knowledge. And there is nobody as discerning and wise as you. So guess what? and now for the third time he's elevated you will be over my house and at your word on my people

when Pharaoh woke up from his dreams what we're told is that his ruach from those dreams was agitated and that's what we looked at before that's right the Pharaoh's ruach was trouble so he wakes up and his ruach is it's a fascinating word

pa'am which as a noun what it means is a instance or a beat like a footstep a potom So as a verb, it's like... Oh. It's referring to, like,

knocking? Increased heartbeat. Oh, okay. So his ruach is palpitating. Pounding ruach. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's really interesting. So agitated, troubled, are different English translations.

But the idea is that he's got his ruach, like his breath, and that's how he wakes up, me panting, hyperventilating, something. So that's his ruach. And then all of a sudden he sees Joseph. And Joseph can, as it were, see into his mind. Yeah. He can see his dream and see what it means. Yeah, yeah.

So instead of just saying God is with you, he's like God's ruach. You're saying God is telling me in my ruach what's about to happen. But somehow you have access to that. You have access to my ruach. Yeah. You're seeing something. and connecting to something that people typically don't. Yes, connecting to something.

Yeah. Yeah. You just said words that came out of your ruach, like your mind, and my ruach is palpitating, agitated because of this dream that I just had. So this is where I suggested that perhaps the word mind is helpful to think of his spirit was troubled. You could think of it as hyperventilation. Oh, the Pharaoh's spirit. Mm-hmm.

But then when he says the Ruach of God is in you because you just solve the riddle in my mind. Yeah, my Ruach. And that has to be then why Pharaoh also uses the words discernment and wisdom. Because these are words about a deeper level of insight. So really, I think about the miracle of human understanding. Tell me about that. That we can comprehend anything? It was really remarkable.

Yeah. Like we can look at, I don't know, some like, just the mystery of human cognition. So I'm just thinking, I rode my bike here this morning. Okay. And I have to cross a number of busy streets. Yeah. So I sit and I wait for the street, for the cars passing. Right.

And my mind is tracking with them. Yeah. There's these huge, huge, dangerous to me, objects speeding by. Right. And they're like feet from me when I'm waiting. Right. And my brain figures out there's a pattern when there's enough space and time between them

that I can get through and cross the street. And it's become kind of unconscious. So unconscious. But my brain is doing immense amounts of processing and pattern sifting. And then send signals to all my muscles and coordinate them to do that. That's a moment of wisdom.

I'm discerning between the good time and the bad time Across the street. Now that's so basic. We don't even think about that kind of cognition, because our bodies are doing that, you know. But then there's all kinds of cognition and understanding that we actually really have to focus on, and that's super high-level stuff that we're doing.

And how amazing is it that a creature can observe things outside itself, observe patterns, and then begin to make decisions that actually work out. It's like we're participating with the orchestra, the symphony of patterns out there and learning how to weave our lives in sync with the patterns.

So, yeah, just at a basic level, the average human is a marvel to be able to understand things. Yeah, yeah. And so then are you saying, then if that's already marvelous, then how much more marvelous is something where

than someone can say, sit with you and suddenly see something from within you. Maybe you're going through some grief. Yes. Or you're thinking about something wrong or you're stuck and you're talking to this person and the person just sees it and can help you see it. And all of a sudden you're like, whoa, well, you just tapped into something much deeper than anyone else has tapped into for me.

Yep. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. So one way to talk about that is the Ruach Elohim is in you, and it's giving you an insight into how things work, and then in particular in this case, how things work inside me. So we might have other words to talk about that, empathy or sympathy, I guess, depending. That's about discerning how they're feeling, and then mirroring that and connecting to it. But then understanding.

I mean, John, think how many hundreds of hours we've loved? sitting here, talking, sharing ideas. And you have these ideas in your mind, and I have these in my mind, and we share them back and forth. But then there are sometimes where I think we've both had moments where it feels like we discover something together as we talk. It wasn't what I came in the room thinking about. It's not what you came in the room thinking about,

but we tap into it. And one way the biblical authors talk about that is the Ruach Elohim is in you and like, whoa, when you said that, like, I heard something above and beyond addressing me. Okay. Now, but is that what all Pharaoh meant? Like, you're just... He matches it with discerning and wisdom.

You were able to see something, name something, and bring a solution. Yeah. That's like, how did you see that? Where did that come from? Because when we say that, like, the spirit of God is in someone, and now, I'm saying in kind of our modern Christianity. We don't mean like, oh, that was insightful, or that was highly empathetic.

We mean like something more than that, because someone can be empathetic or insightful without connecting with God. Okay, well, so I think I just want us to then look at some other examples. I want to mess with that a little bit. I think the biblical authors want to mess with that. Because the question is, well, whose wisdom is this?

Like, Joseph's put in years now, like many, many years of hard work, like running things, solving problems, being responsible. The author was very clear to show this is the third rodeo, so to speak, of him coming up against a... However, he didn't go to, like, a dream reading class, right? That's true. Exactly right. So, like, God had to give him that information. That's right, that's right.

But I guess my point is, how are we to imagine the Ruachel Elohim working in and through the mind of Joseph. Is it possession, as it were? Is it something so above and outside of him and his mind? He just becomes like a musical instrument and the wind blows through it. But even take that analogy, when the wind blows through an instrument, the instrument has to have been shaped in a certain way. Yeah.

So that when the wind goes through it, it takes on a certain sound. Right. And meditating on this example over time has really convinced me that Joseph isn't the passive instrument. That it's a marriage of this guy's life experience and wisdom and knowledge above and beyond that Pharaoh encounters. It's as well an incarnation of God's wisdom in the person of Joseph.

Okay. But he uses the phrase ruach Elohim is in you. Now, if Pharaoh would have brought in another one of his magicians or something and said, here's the dream, and they gave an interpretation. And he's like, oh, I think you're on to something. Yeah. He might use the phrase, then, oh, you're tapping into the rock. Mm.

But we would say, well, but that person wasn't filled with God's ruach. Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Well, they are in one sense. But they are in one sense. They're breathing. They are breathing.

and I guess to understand anything, that's a gift of God. In one sense, any act of human discernment and understanding is a gift of God's ruach. But isn't the story about Joseph trying to help us appreciate that while everyone is living within the breath of God, that Joseph is different? It's more concentrated. It's more, well, we're back to also that phrase God was with Joseph. Yeah. Well, he's with everything and everyone. Yeah.

But there are certain moments where people, experience or perceive God being with in a special, super concentrated, intense way. Joseph is regularly a vehicle for that of God's presence and work and wisdom happening in the world through his actions and his words. Isn't it important that it's a dream, though, because a dream is something truly hidden to us? Yeah, yeah, that's right. So, like, you need to tap into something beyond our own mental thing. That's right. That's great. Now, Joseph's the first example. I want to show us some others.

Because there are many gaps or questions that are being raised here that will be, I think, addressed in some other examples. So I want to push pause on Joseph. Go to the second spirit-filled person in the Bible, which is just in the next book of the Torah in Exodus, Chapter 28. So this is a story about the building of the tabernacle. Moses has shown this heavenly temple blueprint of... on Mount Sinai, and God says, okay, so go back down there, take this blueprint that you're observing and make it a reality, but share it with a couple of people, and specifically one guy who's going to then help a bunch of other people actually make this tent.

And this Exodus 28, verse 3, you will speak to all of the people who are wise of heart, Hacham Lev Wise of heart Whom I have filled God speaking with the Ruach of wisdom so that they can make and then it begins a long list of

like the tent and the priestly garments and the gold and the weavings and all the beautiful stuff of the tabernacle. Yeah. So these are the craftsmen. Yeah. So speak to people who are and then our English translations use a variety of English words here

in Exodus 28, verse 3. For Hakam Lev? Yeah. Hakam Lev. So wise of heart. And heart is very closely connected to Ruach. They're almost synonyms. Except heart is not connected with life.

It's connected with desire and purpose and plans. Yeah. Even though for us... That's a whole other conversation. It's a whole other conversation. The way that the ancients thought about hearts. Yeah, that's right. So they are people who are,

wise of heart, it's usually translated. NIV just has, I have given wisdom. They don't even mention the spirit. NIV just says, tell the skilled workers to whom I've given wisdom. Literally, it's tell all of the wise of heart, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, to do. NIV really kind of makes it more bland. NAS says, skillful people whom I've endowed with a spirit of wisdom. So they'd change English words, even though it's the same Hebrew words, skill for one and wisdom and another.

Ah, here we go. King James, thou shalt speak unto all that are wise-hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom. There we go. King James did good. Yeah, they did great. Good job. So notice they are wise of heart, and I've filled them with the spirit of wisdom. Notice they are wise, and God fills them.

with wisdom. So they need to start at a certain level of capability. Yeah. In other words, it's not like these are a bunch of farmers, and then they just woke up one day zap by the spirit. And they're like, whoa, I could sew garment, so well. Exactly. Yeah. I mean. I know karate. You know that? I think I know what you mean, but I don't know the source reference.

With the Matrix. That's from the Matrix. Got it. That's where he uploads his mind. Okay. And he learns karate? That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

Then he's an instant karate expert. Yeah. So these are people who are already wise of heart. This is going to the dojo and like get in the black belt. So actually this is Joseph. God's already with him and he's put in many years of wise, successful management and leadership. Okay. And then there's one day, there's one moment where a super intense form of God being with him happens.

Or God's ruach giving him a wisdom and an insight that just seems like, whoa, where'd that come from? You tapped into something next to. Yes. So here it's not with words. It's with the ability to make their craft, their skill. Eden like beauty, an ability to make Eden out of cloth and gold metal. It's amazing.

So the point is, I think that there's this mixing of divine and human agency when we talk about the spirit and wisdom. When we talk about spirit as life, I don't have life in a life. of myself. My breath is so fragile, it could go at any moment, and it often does. With wisdom, we're talking about something a little different, that when God fills someone with wisdom, it's usually not like zapping them so that they are all of a sudden the vehicle of something that has no connection to their past history or abilities. We're talking about a true merging of human and divine agency. They are skilled of heart, and their skill,

of heart is intensified by God's Ruach, but it was already there through their life experience. That's interesting. The language of filling, then, doesn't automatically mean that somebody is being zapped with an ability

that has no connection to what we would call their natural abilities. But I think the biblical authors want to say, like, what do we mean by natural ability? Like, any ability that any human has is already, like, the Ruach 1.0. And what we're talking about here is like a Ruach 2.0 kind of moment.

And that's going back to this, it's a marvel we can understand anything. Yes, that's right. That's right. That's right. But then to understand something at a level where you would say, oh, you're filled with Ruach El-Heem is kind of another level. But you've always been filled with Ruach El-Him. Yeah. So there is like a two-step process here.

But to be filled with Ruach is an intensifying, in these cases we've looked at. in intensifying of something that was already at work and already in these humans. That feels significant to me. That'll be relevant to when we come to New Testament discussions being filled with the Spirit. And I'm not trying to predetermine what filling with the Spirit means in the New Testament.

I'm just saying we have to reckon with... At least start here. These fillings, yeah, they're in the Hebrew Bible as well. So let me show you some other examples. The other moment of a spirit-filling, as it were, is in the story of Moses, where Moses is realizing he's not going to make it into the promised land. He blew it at the rock of Maribah, that he hit two times. And that's a whole other story.

But what he says is, okay, God, he's talking to God and says, you know, if I'm not going to lead the people into the land, who's it going to be? Like, they need a leader so that they are not like, like sheep without a shepherd. This is in Numbers, chapter 27, verse 17. So the Lord says to Moses, all right, take that guy, Yehoshua, son of Noon. Joshua.

Joshua. A man in whom is the ruach, and lay your hand on him, and have him stand in front of Elisar, the priest, and you shall take some of your, your majesty, your honor, your honor, and put it on him, so that everybody in Israel will then listen to him. Okay.

So he is a man in whom is the spirit. You're like, wow, that's cool. The spirit's already been doing cool stuff, and that's true. Joshua has played a key role in many stories throughout the Torah. He just appeared in Exodus as like a commander when the Israelites were attacked by the Amalekites. he was able to go higher up the mountain with Moses, Mount Sinai, than anybody else. And it's ambiguous whether he was at, with him at the top. That's in Exodus 24.

He's with Moses when he's coming down from Mount Sinai to see the golden calf. Joshua is one of the two spies sent into the land who... He's one of the two that... He says, like, yeah, God can save us in the land. Like, we can do it. And the other ten are like, no, we're going to... Didn't they have a spirit or something? Yes, that's right.

God says that Caleb, Joshua's partner there, has a different Ruach. Yeah, than the other ten. Than the other ten. Yeah. So Joshua's already a winner. And I guess the point is, is four years. Yeah. Once again, like this isn't coming out of nowhere.

He's proven himself through years of being a person who is this kind of person, and he just is a person in whom is the spirit. So this theme comes back around in the story, when Moses dies at the end of Deuteronomy. And he dies and the people mourn. And then in Deuteronomy 34, verse 9, now Joshua, son of noon, was full of the ruach of wisdom.

So back in numbers, it just said, he's a man in whom is the ruach. But that's exactly what Pharaoh said to Joseph. Can we find anybody in whom is the ruach of Elohim? There's nobody as discerning and wise. Yeah. And now at the end of Deuteronomy, the narrator tells us Joshua the son of noon was full of the ruach of wisdom.

Numbers 27 just said he had the ruach of God. Now here at Deuneronomy, it's the ruach of wisdom. Okay. So notice Numbers 27 says, God says, a man in whom is the ruach. But then at the end of Deuteronomy 34, when it actually happens when Joshua was installed as the new leader, the narrator tells us he's full of the ruach of wisdom. Because Moses places his hands on. So it's almost like there was an extra filling.

Yeah. Yeah. What it doesn't mean is that he's now breathing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because to be full of Ruach is one way to just say, you're alive. Right. That's clearly more is meant here. Well, okay.

There's a couple layers. One way is to say you're alive. The Ruach is in my nostrils. Another thing you would say is, oh, that person's really, their life has shown through years. Oh, like the artists. Like the artist. They're skilled of heart.

Yeah, the skilled of heart. Or like Joshua, he's filled with God's Ruach. When they make leadership decisions, what we experience is God's presence or God's wisdom. Yeah. A wisdom that's coming from above and beyond, but through that person. But then you could also say that here in Deuteronomy 34-9, Joshua's filled with the rock of wisdom because Moses placed his hands. So there was this moment. Totally.

Yes. Like where more Ruach came down. Yeah. And that's the same way where those craftsmen who were skilled of heart. That's right. Were like infused with more skill. It was an intensifying. Intensifying.

Of something that was already there within them. And so that's what you were trying to say is happening in Joseph. It's the intensifying. Where I was saying, you know, the fact that it's a dream makes me feel like it is a zapping. I see. You know, like Joseph couldn't have done that. Sure. in and of himself.

Sure. That's right. So I guess I've always kind of emphasized or thought about that aspect of it. But maybe it's also the case that could it have really happened through anyone other than Joseph? Right.

That's, okay. And then the story is trying to focus on his really unique life experiences that shaped him into a certain kind of person. Okay. This is going to be a theme throughout our conversations to come. Okay. Really, this is a meta question

about how God's agency and work relates to human agency and work. And one thing that I keep encountering in the biblical story is the biblical authors want to mess with me. Because I want to think in binaries. Yeah, either I'm doing it out of my own understanding and my own skill and it's very human or I can be infused with God's spirit

and I'm doing something beyond myself. Right. Yeah. And in one sense, that's a helpful binary because I'm not God. But in another sense, the whole premise of the biblical story from page one is God has chosen to be present with, to bring about his wise rule and stewardship through human images, representatives. And so right there already is a marriage of divine and human agency, or we've called it partnership over the years. So here in the language of spirit, isn't it interesting that very often divine and human agency,

is so closely connected, but it's clearly God, like in a case of Joseph. Yeah. But it's also clearly Joseph, uniquely Joseph. Right, uniquely Joseph. Because of his own life experience. I like that, clearly God, uniquely Joseph. Okay, real quick, you're using 1.02.0. I know.

I would, no, that's fine. Yeah. Kind of two different ways of thinking about being filled with God's ruach. I exist because the ruach of God is in my nostrils. You're alive. That's true of every creature. That's just true of reality. Human and animal.

To be alive is to be filled with God's Ruach. That's right. Okay. So that's 1.0. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Level 1, Ruach is in my nostrils if you're alive. Okay.

Level 2 is my life experience has shaped me such that I have a set of habits and skills and I've developed them. Okay. but when those become more intensely fused with joined to permeated by the presence and breath of God, it becomes like a super intense moment. Because nothing has prepared you. Yeah, that's right. Right? To know what that dream means.

Yeah, that's right. So that something more. That's right. Or someone more. I mean, what is happening is people are encountering a someone above and beyond and more. and more than the someone that I'm looking at make the priestly garments or interpret the dream. Yeah, okay.

So I'm encountering as that we're another layer of someone in and through the someone human that I'm looking at. And that's it. And they say, that's the Ruach, the Ruach Elohim, speaking through you. Okay. Let me, let's look at the last example. All right.

What's interesting is the last example is the longest and most involved. It's the book of Daniel. So, King Nebuchadnezzar conquers Jerusalem takes mostly the elite and wealthy of Israelite leadership in prison and exiled to Babylon. And you're introduced to a bunch of young men in Daniel 1 verse 4

who, in whom there was no blemish, which is the phrase used of sacrificial animals. Okay. That's interesting. Actually, it's very intentional. They were good of sight, which was used of the trees in Eden, they showed intelligence in every branch of wisdom,

endowed with understanding and discerning knowledge. So they're kind of like the Betzal's crew. Exactly. They are wise of heart already. That's why they're going to get recruited. And they had ability for serving in the king's court. And so he, the king, ordered that they be taught the language and literature of the Babylonians.

And they do this for three years. So they're already really smart. They get more training. Get three years of like classes and study, right? And then Daniel gets notice of the diet, the assigned like cafeteria diet that they're supposed to eat. And it's really rich foods and meats.

And Daniel, being a Torah devout, Israelite. He's aligned his diet according to the laws and wisdom of the Torah, like the kosher food laws. And so... And none of the meats are kosher. Yeah, exactly. So he just says, no, me and my three friends, we're not going to eat that. And that really makes the whole leader of the whole program angry. And he says, like, you might be giving up your lives here if I report this to my superiors. Not just disqualify you, but you'll probably get killed. And Daniel just says, like, no, We have to honor our God as we be happy to serve Babylon, but not compromise who we are. And so they go through this test where for a period of time, they only are going to eat water and vegetables.

Yeah, and it's a test because the leader guy's checking the sea. Yeah. Can they hang? Will their bodies be as nourished as everyone else? As everyone else. What we're told in Daniel 117 is God gave them knowledge and intelligence in every branch of literature and wisdom, and Daniel even could understand visions and dreams. Whoa, he got plused up right there.

So the whole point is spirit's not mentioned in Chapter 1, but them already being wise, then enduring this test. God gives them more wisdom. And we're told just God gave them. And then it's all the stuff they already had, but just more of that. And even dreams, that's interesting. And dreams added, because next couple stories are going to be about the king having dreams. And in chapter two, then again in chapter four and in chapter five, there are these dreams that the kings have. And it's all set on analogy and hyperlink back to Joseph.

Like full of verbatim language and hyperlinks. But in chapter four, when the king has the dream and not only does he make his sorcerers try and interpret it, he doesn't even tell them what the dream is. He's just like, tell me what my dream is and interpret it for him. Yeah. So Daniel gets called up, like Joseph, and he's able to both tell him the dream. It's about the statue made of four parts of metal. And what Nebuchadnezzar says is that Daniel came in before me, and in him is the ruach of the holy gods. And then he says to Daniel, because I know that the ruach of the holy gods is in you, and no mystery can overwhelm you.

you can tell me the visions of my dream. And so he does, and he gets elevated to an even higher leadership position. Yeah. So remember how in Joseph, it wasn't said that he was already full of wisdom. You were just told God was with him. Right. But it's the same idea. Same idea.

But then he has leadership skill, and he can read Pharaoh's mind, as it were. And Pharaoh says, whoa, the ruach of God is in you. Now we are told that he's like a Betelel or a Joshua. he has got lots of skill already I mean Daniel is actually the fulfillment of all of the passages that we've looked at in terms of how this works okay so

what you're drawing attention to is let's not so separate the kind of the quality of who Daniel was already or Joseph to what it means for him to then be filled with the spirit with that in mind the fact that these things

are dreams and that these are mysteries and nothing could really fully prepare Daniel or Joseph. Yeah. Like they have to tap into something beyond them. Yep. A knowledge that comes from above and beyond them. Yeah. So it's both. We're talking about both things.

We're talking about getting charged by something that's beyond me, but then also not becoming something that I'm not already. Yeah. Yes, exactly. And, you know, this is a common cross-cultural experience of, I mean, who am I talking to? Epiphanies. Right? Like years ago, you and your friends started an explainer video business to help people have epiphanies by watching videos.

But the idea of an epiphany is the idea, it's the word revealing, uncovering. It's happening in your mind. but what you feel like is something happened to my mind from beyond me. It was both me and not me. And that's also what this is trying to name here. It happened through my mind, but it was as if something from outside my mind entered my mind. And this is why language of spirit possession or spirit filling,

I think can be appropriate, but I think what that language can hide from us is the fact that it's a true merging of something outside and the uniquely inside of me. And it doesn't give space to think of just a very simple moment of saying no to something

or discerning between something in just the quiet of your day. That's right. That's also being filled with the spirit in a sense, right? Is that what we're saying? Yeah, yeah, totally. What the son of Nebuchadnezzar says to Daniel is that when he solves his riddle and dream,

is that the ruach of the holy gods is in you, and then he says that you have an extraordinary ruach, Daniel 5 verse 12. An extraordinary ruach, like precious, unique. What's that word? Yakira, to use of precious stones, rare. A rare. Rare, valuable. It's unique. was this word we came across earlier, uniquely Daniel.

So it's as if when the ruach of God happens to these people, they become more themselves, or they become the most heightened, perfected version of themselves. It's like their mind reaches its fulfillment, but precisely by becoming joined in that instance with God's mind. humans are capable of uniquely remarkable miraculous levels of understanding and achievement. Not all the time every day, but if somebody wasn't having these little micro-miracles of spirit-filling day by day through their decision-making, they likely wouldn't be in a position for the one day or one moment when something like this, you know, a Daniel or a journal.

massive moment. What would you say to someone who is listening to this and is a little bit sad? Because maybe they've lived a foolish life up until a certain point where they started to follow God and kind of turn things around. And what they have is a life where they just, they haven't built a foundation. And for that kind of person, feeling like you can just be zapped and feel the way. with the spirit and just, oh,

like that's just such a relief. That could be really good news. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. In my experience, the spirit of God is endlessly creative with redirecting and transforming the history of people's life experience towards healing and new creation purposes. So, you know, yeah, whatever terrible decisions, a person has made, I have observed in the church communities I've been a part of that often where

people have been hurt or hurt other people because of histories of decisions uniquely qualifies them to have insight into that part of human experience and then to become somebody who can help others and be a vehicle of God's mercy or wisdom to people who want to find a way out of that or to empathize with people, you know? I think it's why, for example, some of the most skilled and wise leaders of like a 12-step program are people who themselves have gone through

the 12 steps of addiction recovery, that principle. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good. In other words, even the decisions that I wasn't directing towards God's wisdom, I think can be reframed. The experiences. Reframed or transformed. and when they're directed towards love of God and neighbor.

And all of a sudden, what I thought was a lost chapter of my life can end up having served a bigger purpose or is part of a bigger redemptive arc to someone's life. That's my first thought. That's a good thought. Because what these stories are about is somebody who was rocking it.

They were doing awesome. Totally. And then they got even more awesome. How rare is that, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. I have often thought about all the years that I trained myself to do things repeatedly on my skateboard. Because skating is really about a dedication to repeat.

It's a craft. Yeah, forming the muscle memory of doing the same trick over and over and over and over and over 10,000 times until you becomes automatic. And those are skills that when I started. learning Greek and Hebrew in biblical studies. I didn't know it, but I was like, all of a sudden, like, well, I have, like, the ability to learn these languages. Suddenly, your kick-flipping verbs in Hebrew? Yes. And I really surprised me because I was such a terrible student in high school, but I realized it's just I could have cared less.

And that's why I did poorly is because nobody taught me how to care. Or nobody could make me care. But once learning was tied to my discipleship to Jesus, I was like, well, now I care. I'll kick-flip the verbs. So maybe that's, you know, like even things that we think are lost can become vehicles for God's spirit, but a whole lot of other things need to, you know, have happened. That's a great question. Thanks for asking that.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Bible Project podcast. Next week we'll look at the third most common idea associated with the Spirit of God in the Hebrew Bible, the spirit and prophecy. That is God's speech flowing. through a human. But with a human whose mind doesn't go away, it's supercharged their mind. And that's the picture of the Hebrew prophets that the biblical authors want to put forward to us. Bible Project is a crowdfunded nonprofit, and we exist to help people experience the Bible as a unified story that leads to Jesus. Everything that we create is free because of the gender support of thousands of

people just like you. Thank you so much for being a part of this with us. Hi, my name is Trinity, and I'm from British Columbia, Canada. Hello, my name is Tony from Cincinnati, Ohio. I first heard about the Bible Project on the read scripture videos. I first heard about the Bible project while in high school. My mom suggested I use it as I was learning to how to study the Bible. I now continue to use the Bible project for my daily studying of Scripture to get a better understanding. I use the Bible project for introducing my grandchildren to the books of the Bible

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